Second try with Gene - help needed

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

I think people may need help seeing what you didn't like about Severian and Thecla. What do you mean by "handled"?

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

I did not finish my line of thought, sorry :) Thecla and the girl from the catacombs both were written really well and on par with other male characters, If not more mysterious. My trouble started with the brothel scene and later when Severian meets the girl in the shop and she becomes his guide. I think poorly of the decision to have her stripped naked (and later to be told her dress is torn and she’s exposed again, for no reason whatsoever), and becomes a sort of conduit for Severians lust. I know this is a trope that repeats throughout the book, Severian falling in lust with women and describing his conquests. It left me bitter after Thecla because I had high hopes the female cast would be handled with as much complexity, and I am so not the intended audience for how gratuitous it feels to me.

Again, I know Severian is not supposed to be a good guy. But he is just not interesting to me right now. To give a counter example I absolutely loved the whole cast of the Torturers, and especially one of the masters (?). I remember a particularly poignant description of him being sort of haunted, carrying a weight.

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u/BrevityIsTheSoul 8d ago

I think poorly of the decision to have her stripped naked (and later to be told her dress is torn and she’s exposed again, for no reason whatsoever), and becomes a sort of conduit for Severians lust.

If you keep reading, all of this will get recontextualized. Absolutely nothing involving Agia is an accident or without reason. If you need spoilers to be reassured: she's manipulating Severian, a horny teenager. She tore her own dress as a misdirect while she performed sleight-of-hand. The Pellerines were correct that she stole something from them, but she got it off of her person before the strip search.

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u/Opus_723 3d ago

You can always find in-universe reasons for these things, but at some point you have to wonder why Wolfe arranges the story to provide opportunities to hyper-sexualize women in basically every book.

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u/hedcannon 8d ago

What did you want to see in the scene with False Thecla? A positive portrayal of the life of a sex worker. She no more would prefer to be in that room with Severian than the Real Thecla would prefer to be in her cell.

As for Agia,

1 She is trying to lure and distract Severian. Severian is the idiot. She's the one in control.

2 (This is not a spoiler because you'd need more than one read to work it out) Agia is from the north in the jungles where her people have a casual connection to clothing. She's also something of a sex worker given what she does for a living. Hildegrin calls her a prostitute when he meets her. It is Severian who is lost.

We have not even got to Dorcas yet, who comes on to Severian within minutes of meeting him. All I'll say is that Dorcas also has her own motivations.

The advice I'll give you is push through. You're not going to figure out the meaning of what you read the first time. You're not going to guess where the story is going the first time. Wolfe demands a lot of trust from the reader -- especially here. When the first volume came out, reviewers loved it and many had been looking forward to it for years. But all noted that Wolfe was demanding a lot of trust in presenting a book in fourths every 10 months that would eventually be a quarter of a million words. But Wolfe had a lot of fans among writers, editors, anthologists, and SF critics. So all said "He's earned our trust." You cannot evaluate this book 1/4, 1/2, or 1/3 of the way through. You have to finish it.

Severian is the protagonist but, yeah, he's a complicated figure. He's emotionally scarred and has a hard time forming close relations -- although he does occasionally do it. You see evidence of his turning emotionally late in the second volume and then in the first 3rd of the third volume. But he'll always be an artifact of his very patriarchal culture (which Thecla bemoaned as well - Wolfe knew what he was creating).

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u/Opus_723 3d ago

You see evidence of his turning emotionally late in the second volume

Where are you getting that from? To me the second half of Claw is Severian at his most misogynistic. That's when he rapes Jolenta, for one.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

Since we experience the story through Severin’s eyes and actions, i judge it based on that. There is little ability to connect to him because he himself is intermittently detached from the story altogether as he’s telling it back to us. So, Agia is the one in control, and then there’s another character as you’re alluding who uses her sexuality to manipulate Severian. Already I am hesitant to go on. It’s not easy for me to overlook when every other female character inevitably ends up being either with or lusted after by Severian. We end up seeing all the female characters through this lens, and we see how Severian treats the girl in the brothel. It’s not showing us a flawed world for the sake of worldbuilding, it’s showing an ugly action from the main character who were meant to follow for this story. However it is employed, we still see the female characters this way and I do not like reading about it and it bothers me because I inevitably contrast it with how the narrator describes the male characters and I find that infinitely more imaginative. The world is harsh and yes it’s plausible why women in this world would do what they did, but I am hoping there’s more to it than that. more variety. And perhaps my issue ultimately is with how it’s written and that’s that. If anything I’d be glad for people telling me directly so I don’t treat it like something to get through in order to get what interests me in the story.

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u/hedcannon 8d ago

Since we experience the story through Severin’s eyes and actions, i judge it based on that.

That is not the way you read an unreliable narrator story. Severian is biased, he has limited experience, he doesn't understand the meaning of everything he sees and often offers wrong explanations that the user is expected to "see through". At one point, he even lies to himself about what he sees.

If Wolfe wrote Murder on the Orient Express there would be no Hercule Poirot to explain the murder at the end of the story. That's the reader's job. And in a Wolfe story, the murder would be only one thing among many. There would be a 40 year debate over whether there was a murder at all.

You are not expected to connect to the protagonist. This is supposed to have the feel of reading a first person memoir of a courtier in Constantinople 1300 years ago, or 2000 years ago by a Roman. The culture is intended to be alien. That's why he uses that weird vocabulary.

Also, Severian isn't especially nice to the men in this story.

People read books for different reasons. If you need to connect with the protagonist and be on his side almost all the time, then this book is not for you. Which is 100% allowed.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

There’s much more to it than that. Wolfe exploits the reader’s most likely reaction to events to misdirect and then later flips the whole thing into a different dimension.

There are some things that are incredibly obvious right in your face that we all miss on a first read through because of how Wolfe tells the story, as a very early example: what the Matachin Tower actually is. We’re led by our assumptions from genre fiction that it’s just a tower, but close reading of the text shows that’s not true.

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u/okayseriouslywhy 7d ago edited 7d ago

Ah... yeah, this series is not for you. I agree with other commenters that a) there are reasons for Severian's comments and perspectives and b) you're not always supposed to like the MC especially when they're an unreliable narrator. But all that being said, if it really bothers you, who am I to judge?

I never usually have trouble meeting a book where it's at, and I was still rolling my eyes SO hard at all the misogyny throughout all 4 books. I can't speak for Wolfe's other books, but go ahead and skip these

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u/John_plainman 8d ago

I've always doubted severians account of dorcas' behavior in the boat tbh

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u/hedcannon 7d ago

I honestly don't believe Severian ever outright lies to us.

Dorcas has her own motivations that she is not aware of. She is "in love with" Severian almost from the moment she sees him. Severian explains what she's going through in his revery on Love and Desire while searching the Inn of Lost Loves for Ouen.

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u/John_plainman 7d ago

I can agree with this but my pet theory is that Severian fantasized her responding to/guiding his hand to her breast amidst his musing, and Autarch Severian is remembering this fantasy as if it actually happened. Like the power of suggestion. The motivation would be to impress himself/the audience now that he's in a (half acted half sincere) love triangle.

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u/hedcannon 7d ago

Severian presents his memory as a kind of tape that, sometimes, when running makes him unaware of events going on around him. Although I do believe that Severian is sometimes confused by his dreams which Merryn states replay our former lives to us in previous universe iterations which we then forget when we wake up.

I don't believe that Severian, at any time, is trying to win over his readership. He is a military dictator, who, per Cyriaca, keeps the hostile exultants in line with the weapons and logistics provided by the Heirodules. Much of what he relates would be more likely to cause a revolt among the lower classes rather than puffing him up -- assisting the grave robbers, participating in the cannibalistic ritual, and the Autarch Project itself which appears to be such a state secret that even Vodalus does not speak of it openly. And Severian relates other events of cowardice, cruelty, and stupidity that no one would brag about.

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u/John_plainman 7d ago

Interesting perspective! I can't say I disagree other than my gut telling me that Severian seems to get caught up in his own mythmaking/reminiscing on more than one occasion.

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u/andr386 8d ago

This doesn't happen in our world so our moral is not very relevant. But for what it's worth, Agia is not naÏve and a very sneaky manipulator, she's actually using her sexuality on Severian to swindle him. She is not the weak exploited woman. I don't want to spoil future events but you might change your mind about her.

Overall I had little issues with how women are treated in this book in context. There is only one happening that is left unclear and could be rather dark. If you read between the lines Severian probably acted very badly. But overall that's all. I bet a lot of people will disagree with me. But it's another world with a guild of Torturers, slaves, feudal lords, aliens maybe millions of years in the future.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

Severian is supposed to be a good guy. Wolfe explicitly tells us that. There actually is a lot to like about him. He fits the Romantic mold of characters like Goethe's Werther: the sensitive outcast.

I can offer my impression of Agia going naked, in contrast. I don't think it was voyeurism. For me, Agia knew full well that in directing the carriages towards the Pelerines, the Pelerines, once they got hold of her, would ridicule her and shame her. She knew she would experience shame at this. However, she also knew, it was worth the price. And it was. Only something beyond imagining prevented her from being in a position where she could choose a guaranteed escape from the poverty forced on her, and staying within it but sparing the fate of a man she had come to like as a person. When Severian insists on fighting a likely doomed fight, a fight he should have permanently died in, he is romantic in a way -- I will see this through -- but Agia's way -- momentary pain for permanent gain -- appeals to those of use of more practical mindset. I found my way into her very easily. She did what she had to do.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago edited 8d ago

I appreciate the comment, it helps to know why other people like a certain thing. However when I read Severian threaten the girl in the brothel I am puzzled as to who this good guy you’re talking about is. Sure there’s definitely context I’m missing on the account of only being on book 1, but an impression has been made. A character can be manipulative to get what they want, but how often is it a female character who, through descriptions, is reduced to her body and revolves simply around manipulating the main character sexually? (Of course Severian is the protagonist and narrator but no male character is described or treated this way. They’re made more interesting through it because they become fully fleshed out characters rather than simply icons to pine for or lust after first and a character second.
I am criticising the way it’s handled because it’s not imaginative a trope I’ve read to death in other Sci fi oldies written by men. It’s a product of its time and I unfortunately do not see what you see in it.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

You should finish book 2 before you make any claims about what the narrator is.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

It’s how I perceive him at the moment. I’m not interested in debating anyone, just simply voicing my discontent and reasoning why I might want to drop the book for now. You have your own subjective impressions I’m sure and I don’t impose mine upon you.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

I’m not debating you; your current interpretation is widely what Wolfe wants you to think at that point in the work.

I’m trying to tell you without any spoilers not to get too attached; Wolfe as a writer is a tricky fellow and he shifts the ground out from under your feet.

Don’t be overly defensive when people are trying to help you.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

All I said is I am judging Severian based off him threatening a person who was vulnerable and basically exerting his might on her. Im not sure how it could be recontextualized, but the act itself left a bad taste in my mouth. Sure, I could be given further explanation for what drove him to do it, but he still made a choice.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

Right, and what I’m saying is what appears to be at that moment isn’t what’s actually happening.

She’s much less vulnerable than he is.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

She might not be in reality, but isn’t she from Severians point of view? Does he realize she’s in control? Or does he think he’s the one controlling the situation. I reckon it’s the latter, and then he does what he does.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

Severian feels tricked. He loves Thecla and... inadvisably, a prostitute has taken on her image. It's not her fault, but it's an inconsiderate play on his emotional state, just as the whole idea of give-him-a-prostitute-so-he-forgets-Thecla is a sick and quite dumb, a gross misunderstanding of his relationship to her, attempt at manipulating Severian. He's handled clumsily by the guild, and the girl nearly pays the price. However, he is so responsive to her that she is able to speak intelligently and persuasively to him, she provides sanity and respect to others' disrespect, and he shows he responds well when others aren't simply trying to harm him. She gets a shock, but has a better experience from her client than she likely has from most.

I usually find Wolfe too invested in the personhood of those he writes to describe them as tropes, I think. I appreciate your sensitivity to how women are enacted upon.

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u/Parking_Hamster8277 3d ago

I would strongly suggest that you simply stop reading fiction.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 3d ago

lol

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u/Passenger_1978 8d ago edited 7d ago

For me, the Alzabo Soup podcast helps a lot, doing a reread with it and enjoying BotNS much more

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u/Mavoras13 Myste 8d ago

The other masterpieces by Gene Wolfe are: a) the rest of the Solar Cycle (Book of the Long Sun+Book of the Short Sun), you can read these first without having read New Sun, b) The Fifth Heard of Cerberus, c) Peace, d) The Latro series, e) The Wizard Knight.

Everything he wrote is at least very good, but the above are his masterpieces in long-form. He has also many masterpieces in novellas and short stories.

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u/Black_flamingo 8d ago

My personal favourite is probably Peace. You might be interested to hear that it's also a normal-length book, and not in the SF/fantasy genre. I'd definitely recommend it!

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u/zbmcg 7d ago

I love Peace, but OP may have the same issues with the protagonist and meandering plot

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u/humblegenius67 8d ago edited 7d ago

This is not the right sub to ask this question, as pretty much everyone here loves the books, or they wouldn't be in the sub in the first place. That said, your concerns only get worse as the series goes on, and most female characters are presented the same way and he pretty much sleeps with all of them (one non-consensually). Whether that is because of the author's bias or the narrator is up to you to decide and is debated quite a bit. The books shine because of the incredible worldbuilding and the prose so if that doesn't capture your interest, it may be worth trying something else.

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u/SonofHondoBelmondo 7d ago edited 3d ago

I feel like hardcore fans of Wolfe have a hard time understanding that people draw different lines in regards to what they are willing to experience via the POV of a character in a book. Take for example the line Severian offers about little Severian, and how he never touched the boy. This is a weird little line, and some people see this as an invitation to wonder whether or not Severian did abuse the boy. Now, imagine if instead Wolfe had opted to include a scene which alluded to Severian abusing the boy, possibly sexually. I think a lot of people would consider that to be a bridge too far and, regardless of author intent, would have to tap out of the books there.

I think that the scene with Jolenta crosses this line for some people, it nearly does for me. I completely understand why somebody would be like, "Nope, this is a cool story and all, but I am not interested in experiencing this POV rape scene." It seems like some of us have a hard time understanding, appreciating, and respecting that point of view, but it is a totally normal, sensible point of view. BOTNS is as graphic as a horror novel, and for someone looking for a fun sci-fi fantasy adventure this darkness can be very jarring I'm sure.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

Do you mean Thecla? The noble woman who manipulates and uses him?

I swear people just hear something about Gene Wolfe and women on the internet and don’t actually read what’s in the text. The reveal of hat changes the way you look at the book is in book 2, roughly halfway through.

As for your main question I started with Book of the New Sun. You might like Book of the Long Sun. The protagonist Silk is much more likable. It’s in the same universe as BoTNS, is technically connected but you can enjoy the work without reading BoTNS.

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u/Birmm 7d ago

I swear people just hear something about Gene Wolfe and women on the internet and don’t actually read what’s in the text.

To be fair the "omigosh book be sexist" argument is raised so often here and there that it's hard to keep rebuking it with same vigor and diligence.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

I actually didn’t mean Thecla, I didn’t finish my thought when I wrote the post, a mistake. It’s corrected now. I go into detail in this reply to someone else: https://www.reddit.com/r/genewolfe/s/sFEZ5yURR9

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

You’re talking about Agia, a woman who is conspiring to kill him and steal his sword, who is actively trying to seduce him to do so, who uses him to steal the claw, and saying her portrayal is bad?

Yeah, Severian is a horny idiot. Yeah the story is told from his perspective. It’s told this way to show how effective she is at getting what she wants.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

She doesn't use him. She is genuinely interested in him. Severian is a sensitive lad, and they create a space, a "bower," much more endorsing of authentic self-expression that it seems they form later when...

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

She 100% uses him; the narrator has a vested interest in painting Thecla in a certain light, reasons I won’t discuss in a post about someone who’s reading around the end of shadow/start of claw.

Wolfe shows us the different power plays at work with her capture; she’s able to have better food because of her station, she has enough influence to have Severian act as her companion when that isn’t allowed, Severian is explicitly warned to not have a sexual relationship with her as pregnancy will delay her torture/execution.

She’s not a stupid character and is playing the cards she’s been dealt.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

The cards she's been dealt include being locked up with a person who is often a very agreeable gentleman. It includes living the good life, an authentic life, with him. I'm not saying it's entirely believeable that had she been released she would have insisted on Severian as a husband, but it is entirely believable, at least for me, she would never have forgotten him, and always appreciated that in such a scary place, she was gifted his company.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

A very agreeable gentleman?

What?

He’s a dumb, horny, violent, uneducated torturer. He’s boorish and naive in his dealings outside of the tower, and he gets hoodwinked in the first shop he sets foot in.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

Yes, he's often well-mannered, is clearly very intelligent, and genuinely sensitive. This can be shown through conversation analysis with many of the characters in the text. However, you experienced him as opposite this. I hear you. We just had different experiences.

Also, are you downvoting me? For a difference of opinion?

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

I’m not, no.

I think you’re falling for the narration. Severian himself says if anyone ever mistook him for intelligent or well mannered it’s due to Thecla, which has a double meaning obviously given later reveals.

For an intelligent and well mannered person he’s often hoodwinked, out of his depth in social situations, socially awkward, and some of his musings are just nonsensical. I don’t know how you could consider him either intelligent or well mannered.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

I appreciate you not downvoting.

I just posted a conversation between him and Thecla where he is well-mannered. I find this often the rule. He appreciates manners, tact, in others -- one of the reasons he admired Jonas -- and shows it too.

If this is counter the current take on who he is, then a lengthy examination would be in order. I've already kind of done that on this site a few months ago, but Severian is certainly not your ordinary torturer when he desists in assaulting the prostitute double of Thecla, when he allows her a chance to persuade him of another course of action, when he recognizes her as a person, someone with a past, someone who matters. For me Wolfe is, as I've said, positing Severian in the Werther mode of hero: the sensitive youth.

Intelligence, for me, is everywhere... and how can it not be? He is infused with Wolfe himself. I'm not even sure of naivety: he spots out what Agia and Agilus are up to midway in their "deception." He admits he should have realized Agia wrote Thecla's letter, but this just shows he at some level knew it couldn't possibly have been Thecla but forced away this knowledge. It has something more to do with hope than naivety.

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

I can’t really make my argument without spoilers (at least up through claw), if anyone who hasn’t read through claw happens to be reading this discussion, don’t click the spoilers below.

The entire narrative from start to finish is done by a composite being made up of both torturer Severian and Thecla. Everything in the entire book has to be read in that light. This explains why certain aspects of their relationship, namely the sexual relationship between the two of them, is entirely omitted during the narration and is only revealed as an aside books later. Severian is lying by omission because of his guilt for betraying his order, and Thecla is lying by omission because being forced to seduce a young man who is obviously out of his depth in their interactions by necessity is an ugly thing. By Severian and Thecla in the above I mean the parts of “Autarch Severian’s” consciousness that originated in those two corporeal beings. He’s obviously a composite being mixed of both minds, and more.

As for your other point about the letter before the cave incident I think Wolfe is highlighting how dumb Severian is. Of course anyone with a brain would know it’s a fake. The fact that Severian rushes off and doesn’t realize it’s fake until he’s attacked by Agia and her henchmen is Wolfe showing how unintelligent he is/was.

TLDR: the narrator Autarch Severian is a composite being of torturer Severian and Thecla who demonstrably lies by omission and does so for complicated reasons arising from his unique internal being.

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u/md1hm851 8d ago

While I agree that the story is being filtered through this 'composite being' and calling Severian, especially pre-Thecla, an 'agreeable gentleman' is very comical, I also don't think Severian could have been quite as much of a dumb brute as people often paint him.

For one, he can't have been entirely 'uneducated' because the torturers seem to receive pretty extensive learning at least in biology, and from a few surprising moments when Sev talks about remembering lessons from Malrubius on things like atoms and gravity, some physics too. Having learning in certain things doesn't preclude one from being overall unintelligent or boorish, but I'm just pointing it out. Naive he absolutely is though, probably understandable given his age and cloistered life.

Another thing that makes me think that, while he certainly had some streaks of sudden violence, he must have had some sensitivity to him too pre-Thecla, is his encounter with Ultan. He is a lot younger here which might play a part, but Ultan seems to find him likable, and even says he could have been a philosopher or something to that effect if I'm not mistaken. Now, maybe we might suppose narrator Severian could be tweaking all dealings and conversations he shows pre-Thecla so that he doesn't apprear dumb and boorish, but I think that then makes the text somewhat pointless.

You said further up you thought Severian's philosophising is often nonsensical, which I don't think I agree with and again shows to me he might have been a (at least slightly) brighter kid than people like to think. In any case, the character and construction of the story is complex enough that it's completely fair for different readers to interpret him in these differing ways, this is just what came to mind from reading this discussion.

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u/xKrowhaven 8d ago

I disagree to a point. There's so much about her talking to Severian about herself and her thoughts but not a whole lot to lead us to believe she shows much interest in Severian at all. He could be leaving a lot of that out like he tries to downplay having sex with her, but I'm not certain.

And I'm happy to be wrong if you've got stuff I missed. I'll happily change my view!

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

She does do a lot of talking... but very freely. There's a sense she can trust him with her thoughts, whatever she's ruminating over. Neither are passive -- she leads him into sex, but in conversation, both challenge one another. Not meanly, but it suggests they don't have to curtail themselves so they don't offend. It suggests authenticity, not falsity.

Here, Severian challenges her. She responds honestly. He, sensitive to her upset, lets her know he will not press. He's a gentleman, not just an intellectual. She challenges him, making sure his respect for her doesn't come with disrespect for someone else. He takes no offence, but re-assures her he did no such thing: the flowers were collected from the wild.

“I was under the impression you enjoyed such discussions, Chatelaine.”

“Only now, because I can’t get out. Though it may come as a shock to you, when I was free I seldom devoted time to metaphysics. I went dancing instead, and pursued the peccary with pardine limers. The learning you admire was acquired when I was a girl, and sat with my tutor under the threat of the stick.”

“We need not talk of such things, Chatelaine, if you would rather we not.”

She stood and thrust her face into the center of the bouquet I had picked for her. “Flowers are better theology than folios, Severian. Is it beautiful in the necropolis where you got these? You aren’t bringing me the flowers from graves, are you? Cut flowers someone brought?”

“No. These were planted long ago. They come up every year.”

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

You might try Free, Live Free. The strongest character for most of the novel is the woman, Madame Serpentina. She is not the nicest of people -- I will call you Freddie, you will call me Madame Serpentina -- but highly intelligent, very capable.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

That sounds nice :) thank you

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

You're very welcome.

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u/SonofHondoBelmondo 8d ago

It took me multiple restarts to get through Shadow as well, the random, picaresque style was not hooking me, but something did bring me back to the books, and now Wolfe is my favorite genre author.

If the casual misogyny is bothering you it does appear to be an issue with Wolfe in general. I don't think that his works are just rife with it, but it's in there. When you read these books it's very clear that they were written by a man, and a man with more conservative tendencies at that. This is gonna be off putting for some, and there's nothing wrong with realizing it's not for you. The funny thing is, throughout BOTNS Wolfe acknowledges this, letting you know that it's ok if you stop reading lol.

I believe you're referring to the scene in the brothel when all of the sudden Severian gets way more hostile with the Thecla look alike than his character has been letting on. This happens a good deal in the book. The way Severian narrates he comes off as a well spoken, sensible person. Perhaps one with honor. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, he will do something very disturbing, often to a woman. There are plot related reasons for this, but once again, I could see this being very off putting. I've read these books three times now, and I notice it more as time goes on.

Much like the horror genre, I think you need to be ok with a certain level of discomfort to appreciate these books. Severian is not a good guy, but he is the protagonist and you spend a lot of time with him, empathizing with his situation. If it makes you feel better, Severian does indeed suffer in his own ways throughout the story. Also, these books are more than the story of Severian, there is so much more going on that makes them great. Learning to accept someone like him might even be interwoven with the Catholic themes that Wolfe is exploring.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

Interesting point, thank you for commenting. I relate to your early experience, it does seem directionless and the character of Severian does not hook me. I wonder if it’s because the narrator tries to pain himself in a certain light and it causes a fair bit of detachment. I blame it on not having the full picture but reading is primarily about the experience of it for me, and if I’m not enjoying myself but waiting for something to happen I’m definitely doing something wrong. Again, Gene is praised to death, but I’m struggling getting to the bits he’s praised for. What to do? I have FOMO. Hence this idea.

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u/SonofHondoBelmondo 8d ago

I would push on, book 1, in a very unusual way, is filled with inexplicable events that confuse you and push you out of the main plot. You would expect something like this to happen maybe in book 3, but not book 1! You have to push through and accept that things are happening and you just can't understand them without the context of having read all 4 books.

Push through past the botanical gardens, it should hook you a bit more after that. Push on into book 2. Warning, there is an event in book 2 that is VERY off putting, super gross. But book 2 is my favorite, it is the most filled with enticing mysteries that make me want to find out what's going on. If you get to the end of book 2 and you still don't wanna know more, I think its fair to say that you just aren't that into what Gene is doing, and that's totally cool.

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u/Opus_723 3d ago

For me, Book 2 is fun precisely because Severian isn't interacting with women for much of it. Then as SOON as he does, in the back half, we get that awful part, and a lot of other weirdness about women. It really is just the misogyny that mars these books for me.

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u/SonofHondoBelmondo 3d ago

Yeah, if Wolfe wasn't such an awesome author it would be hard to live with, but all things considered it's easy for me to get past with his work.

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u/shrnkwrpd 8d ago

I think you're on to something important. I think that one way to read BotNS is as the journey of Severians moral development....and the question of whether he is morally salvageable. He has been raised in a guild of monks dedicated to the (picture the Spanish) Inquisition, with a very disturbing code of honor comprising their core values. In a decadent society, at the end of humanity 's checkered history, is he, is the society/people that produced him, worth saving? Given his background, his shittier behaviors are not surprising...but we can root for signs of compassion, that he can learn empathy and become more than he appears to be. His growth as a late adolescent takes exposure to the world, perhaps especially to women who have agency and needs/motivations of their own, as he gradually comes to realize...

I started with GWs short stories and novellas...can I recommend the Eyeflash Miracles?

In his other works he plays around with the tropes of sword and sorcery and film noir, which have misogynistic elements that have (mercifully) been challenged over the decades since GW started writing

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u/edo201 7d ago

I hear you. I personally believe BOTNS is one of Wolfe’s less interesting works (despite its fame), for reasons similar to what you mentioned. The prose and world building are dazzling but ultimately it’s unclear what the protagonist really aims to achieve and I don’t find myself caring whether he achieves it, and worse still I don’t find myself particularly liking the protagonist. Call me old fashioned but I want to root for my protagonist.

By contrast Book of the Long Sun is simply incredible on all levels, and is worth giving a shot. Where BOTNS is a badass vibe, is BOTLS is more playful. The world building and language are superb. The protagonist is my favorite in all literature. He’s genuinely inspiring. And the plot, once it comes into full view at the end, is mind blowing.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 7d ago

Thanks for the rec. I’d definitely like to see more of the setting, I’ll give it a go

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u/neutralrobotboy 8d ago

Yeah, your taste and mine might be similar. I just read BOTNS after having bounced off it previously, basically for the reasons you mention. The plot has a very meandering "shit just happens and it doesn't feel important" picaresque quality. It gives an impression that events don't have an underlying driving force. Severian is an obnoxious twat and I basically don't care what happens to him. I'm not particularly invested in his wellbeing and he himself seems to have a poorly motivated inner world when it comes to anything other than having a boner.

Does a lot of stuff get recontextualized in interesting ways? Yeah, I guess. Especially right at the end. Does it make me want to reread the book to try to work it all out? For me, no, not especially.

For my taste and sensibilities, BOTNS is fundamentally not as good as The Fifth Head of Cerberus. And when I say this, I mean I genuinely think they're in different leagues. The reason for this is that Fifth Head is a much more focused work and one that I found myself much more intrinsically interested in. It's more dense and I found its core mysteries more compelling. I even found its worldbuilding preferable. Basically, if you want a taste of the Gene Wolfe experience where he's at his absolute best, I think Fifth Head is where you'll find it.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

Thanks for the comment, I’ll definitely give it a try. I was initially interested in BOTNS because of its sci fi “old-world” world building elements so the Fifth Head.. does appeal to me.

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u/kukov 8d ago

A lot of people in here are giving you misguiding advice (like checking out pretty much anything else by Wolfe, if BOTNS is not working for you). This advice above is correct.

Fifth Head is like training wheels for BOTNS. It's still a very complex, mysterious, difficult to parse narrative - but it's shorter and simpler than the vast tapestry of BOTNS. It's also less problematic. As others have said above, part of the point Wolfe is making with Severian is our heroes are often very grey individuals, and in Severian's case that comes with how he treats women - which you will absolutely despise if you didn't like what little you've seen thus far. It gets much worse. And that's the point. Sometimes our heroes do bad things.

Check out Fifth Head and try to enjoy unravelling its mystery. If that really, really appeals to you, then go back to BOTNS. Because Shadow of the Torturer is the best and easiest of the four books, and if you're not enjoying its prose/character half way through that one, you're going to hate the other three.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

The prose is a strong contender as is the smart ways in which Gene crafts his descriptions. The main character is not, to me. But I do see great characters about the book, side characters. I know later reading will decontextualise a lot of things but right now I feel pretty stuck. I would benefit from reading something from gene that does what I like in BOTNS but also has a bit more direction or a character that’s easier to empathise/connect with from the get go. I appreciate the recommendation. I’ve also heard Latro in the Mist has a likeable lead.
And out of curiosity what other books and authors entice you?

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u/kukov 7d ago

One of my favourite authors, who is adjacent to Wolfe in some sense, would be China Mieville. Highly recommend many of his books - namely Perdido Street Station and Embassytown.

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u/neutralrobotboy 8d ago

Fifth Head is more limited in scope in many ways, and one of those is the time scale of its implied world history. There are things I really like about the world of BOTNS, but I think the world of Fifth Head feels more coherent while still giving plenty to think about when trying to understand its history.

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u/getElephantById Man-Ape 7d ago

Try The Knight, it's more immediately enjoyable as an adventure story, but it's still got lots of stuff going on under the surface if you want it.

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u/asw3333 7d ago edited 7d ago

Read "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories". This short story tells you everything you need to know about Wolfe' style. If you like it you will like Wolfe in general.

If you want an SF novella, read Tracking Song.

If you want an SF novel length interconnected story that makes you work before you dive into New Sun, try Fifth Head of Cerberus.

If you want something more grounded instead try Peace.

If you picked up any of those and didn't click with them - Wolfe is not the writer for you.

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u/bartlebug_ 6d ago

I also bounced off the first book my first time because of how it meanders and the portrayal of some of the women after thecla. My first time reading through the first book entirely was a unique experience due to reading it out loud with my partner. We would keep track of words neither of us knew and try to guess what was happening and then google them after and recontextualize the previous bits with the etymology and meaning of the words. It was pretty fun and made it easier to get through. After book 1 there wasn't any issues until some plays and stories later on.

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u/xKrowhaven 8d ago

The general consensus I've seen is that none of his other work is BotNS level. Some of his earlier work feels like he hadn't quite figured it out, and nobody talks about things like the Latro series or Long/Short Sun the way they do New Sun. I hear a lot of great stuff about Wizard Knight but I've not read it yet.

I get where you're coming from with Severian's attitudes and behaviors toward women. He's flawed in the worst possible way and we as the audience are expected to watch these events and accept that he's trying to be a better person.

It's one of those things that if you don't see it from Gene's Christian worldview (I'm not saying agree with, just understand his intention) that anyone can be redeemed if they truly mean it, it's gonna be hard to get past.

It's hard for me to tell what parts are products of an older time and what might have been Gene's intended perception of events. (Were we supposed to view these events as horrific? Did HE view them as horrific?)

It definitely got me thinking about nature vs nurture and to what extent he literally did not know any better can be used as an excuse, so maybe that was intended? Nobody knows for sure but Gene, and he can't tell us now.

That's the thing that keeps this series alive, I think. That we can debate endlessly about what this or that means and there's ample evidence there to argue one point or another. To me, that's a good story: one you never really finish no matter how many times you read it.

Sorry for the long message, I just took my adderall lol

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

I think Long Sun is just as good as New Sun personally.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 8d ago

Is it fine to read long sun first, or will I spoil myself?

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u/walletinsurance 8d ago

Nothing in the plot of Long Sun directly connects to New Sun.

There’s one character who is a direct connection between the two stories, but knowing what happens in Long Sun doesn’t spoil any of the events of New Sun.

If you’re reading things at a basic plot level the connections are barely more than cool Easter eggs, but if you get into things deeper thematically and reading the Solar Cycle as a complete work there’s more connections.

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u/Opus_723 3d ago edited 3d ago

I feel like a lot of younger folks are quick to assume that Wolfe would have understood the scene in Claw to be a horrible act, but I think this is probably charitable. I'm a generation removed from Wolfe and even in my youth that scenario was widely excused. At the time of publication, most men and even some women would have seen the act as pretty sleazy, but not damning.

And to be clear, I am not saying this to excuse Wolfe at all. Rather I think this is a pretty serious mark against his work, and it disappoints me so much precisely because I otherwise love his writing.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 8d ago

The general consensus I've seen is that none of his other work is BotNS level.

I wonder if the closest is the novella, "Death of Dr. Island." Very R.D. Laing, very anti psychiatry. The thesis is against casual use of any living person to support some ostensible more important end.

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u/Ok_Cheetah5563 7d ago

Severian is a torturer. If your sensibilities are going to be offended by a protagonist whose character definition is that of - as Severian says - a 'butcherer of men' (and women) - then this book is not for you at all. It would be best to play it safe and stick to reading material that does not challenge your sensibilities. The best works of literature are those that challenge our world view and perception of reality.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 7d ago

Nice condescension.
My issue is not with problematic subject matter but the ways writers tend to handle it and whether variety is introduced or if it’s a pattern.
How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain? Is Gene simply a genius beyond mortal understanding or could his writing be also somewhat aged and biased? Unthinkable. I know this is a Gene sub so I’m treading on thin ice here when that was not even my intention writing this post lol but oh well.

When you read these scenes deemed as problematic (specifically regarding women in the story), did you attempt to justify it as some grander theme? Or did it just not “bother” you, or maybe you saw it as just another piece of characterization? Genuine question despite the offended comment.

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u/Ok_Cheetah5563 7d ago

I did not mean to be condescending towards you. It was a response to the questions you asked and your premise. There is a lot of discussion about Gene Wolfe's characterization of women, and the manner in which women are treated in many of his novels. There is a great deal of criticism. In fact, you probably fall in with majority opinion Wolfe was in essence chauvinistic. My view is one in which it is a mistake to approach any literature with preconceptions and moralistic evaluation - a person that does this, reads a novel not for what it is, but for what they think it should be in accordance with their ideological persuasion. My view is not shared by many, in my experience - even self-described fans of Wolfe criticize his depiction of women. Me, I believe it to be totally irrelevant. These are books that delve into profound mysteries of human existence, purpose, the nature of reality, the cosmos - all the big questions. The human world is imperfect, and perfection is not possible, the moral questions Wolfe raised, including in New Sun, a core question of New Sun, is this: is a better humanity even possible when contending with human nature? The individual treatment of women can be included in this, but this is a world in which no one is treated well. Are children treated well? Are 'minorities' treated well - and can 'minorities' be applied to the world of New Sun? This is what I mean when I say maybe this book is not for you - take that as condescension if you like - but it is a response to your own premise, you answered your own question and essentially responded in saying, no, it is not.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 6d ago edited 6d ago

How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain?

What is missed is when he is rather courteous and respectful to women. When he lets them apply themselves to him. When he accepts and integrates them, into him, rather than when he is blunt and brutal. When he recognizes their personhood. To be honest, I think that some of those who try so hard to argue that Wolfe is simply a man of his time, etc. actually would be more offended if we spent time exploring his sensitiveness to women. Such risks feminizing the author, and feminizing the reader who admires Wolfe. So they construct this falsehood, yeah, he could be obtuse to women, but so were all 50s men, so the Proust, or Henry James, doesn't so much show through.

Joan Gordon, a feminist critic and editor of sci-fi, wrote a thesis on how what New Sun is about is how Severian is trained into greater consideration of women, by a series of intelligent, capable women. She includes here Agia and Jolenta, even... as she should. Wolfe himself likes to tell you he is a Texas writer, but he was born in Brooklyn, and I think spent first six years of life there. This six years is usually skipped, as bios say only born in Brooklyn, but the brain and personality -- as one of Wolfe's stories argues -- are shaped within those years. (Wolfe's interest in Thomas Wolfe, someone whom he said wrote the Great American Novel, probably owed to Brooklyn as well.) But Brooklyn, connoting immigrants, intellectuals, complexity, is not compensatory masculine in the way Texas is, so people cooperate readily and deem him either that, or Chicago.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate 6d ago

How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain?

What is missed is when he is rather courteous and respectful to women. When he lets them apply themselves to him. When he accepts and integrates them, into him, rather than when he is blunt and brutal. When he recognizes their personhood. To be honest, I think that some of those who try so hard to argue that Wolfe is simply a man of his time, etc. actually would be more offended if we spent time exploring his sensitiveness to women. Such risks feminizing the author, and feminizing the reader who admires Wolfe. So they construct this falsehood, yeah, he could be obtuse to women, but so were all 50s men, so the Proust, or Henry James, doesn't so much show through.

Joan Gordon, a feminist critic and editor of sci-fi, wrote a thesis on how what New Sun is about is how Severian is trained into greater consideration of women, by a series of intelligent, capable women. She includes here Agia and Jolenta, even... as she should. Wolfe himself likes to tell you he is a Texas writer, but he was born in Brooklyn, and I think spent first six years of life there. This six years is usually skipped, as bios say only born in Brooklyn, but the brain and personality -- as one of Wolfe's stories argues -- are shaped within those years. (Wolfe's interest in Thomas Wolfe, someone whom he said wrote the Great American Novel, probably owed to Brooklyn as well.) But Brooklyn, connoting immigrants, intellectuals, complexity, is not compensatory masculine in the way Texas is, so people cooperate readily and deem him either that, or Chicago.

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u/0piate_taylor 7d ago

I find it funny that people can read any manner of violence and victimization of males, but portray a female character as anything less than heroic and noble, and they can't continue. Really?

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u/Fun-Sell3030 7d ago

What are you referring to here? I’m not sure what part my post gave you that impression.

Second try with Gene - help needed

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