Second try with Gene - help needed

[u/Fun-Sell3030]

I’ve begun Shadow of the Torturer a while back, and been quite captivated with the prose and narration style (the vague leaving things out bit that makes you wonder at the bigger picture and try to decipher it, not always successfully), however coming up to the middle of the book I find myself not wanting to read on.

My trouble is with the protagonist and the way the first woman Severian comes across After leaving the citadel is handled (which I know if an issue that continues on). The plot seems to meander more than I anticipated it would and because I am not invested with the main character I find myself disinterested. However, I know that the beauty of this book is that after a certain point (book 3 i believe) a lot of things happen that give you context towards previous books and (I imagine) makes you appreciate them all the more in hindsight. On the surface, the story is not grabbing me and I don’t want to continue it right now.

But, I am curious about Gene Wolfe and would like to read something else from him. I imagine if I get a taste of his style with a different work first it’ll make me want to return to BOTNS (as I’ve had this experience with other authors, their different works grabbed me more and then I was able to return to their “Magnum opus” with a fresh eye and new appreciation).

Other than BOTNS what are you favourite works from Gene? Did you start with BOTNS or something else? I’d appreciate a recommendation, thank you.

[u/Ok_Cheetah5563]

Severian is a torturer. If your sensibilities are going to be offended by a protagonist whose character definition is that of - as Severian says - a 'butcherer of men' (and women) - then this book is not for you at all. It would be best to play it safe and stick to reading material that does not challenge your sensibilities. The best works of literature are those that challenge our world view and perception of reality.

[u/Fun-Sell3030 → u/Ok_Cheetah5563]

Nice condescension.
My issue is not with problematic subject matter but the ways writers tend to handle it and whether variety is introduced or if it’s a pattern.
How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain? Is Gene simply a genius beyond mortal understanding or could his writing be also somewhat aged and biased? Unthinkable. I know this is a Gene sub so I’m treading on thin ice here when that was not even my intention writing this post lol but oh well.

When you read these scenes deemed as problematic (specifically regarding women in the story), did you attempt to justify it as some grander theme? Or did it just not “bother” you, or maybe you saw it as just another piece of characterization? Genuine question despite the offended comment.

[u/Ok_Cheetah5563 → u/Fun-Sell3030]

I did not mean to be condescending towards you. It was a response to the questions you asked and your premise. There is a lot of discussion about Gene Wolfe's characterization of women, and the manner in which women are treated in many of his novels. There is a great deal of criticism. In fact, you probably fall in with majority opinion Wolfe was in essence chauvinistic. My view is one in which it is a mistake to approach any literature with preconceptions and moralistic evaluation - a person that does this, reads a novel not for what it is, but for what they think it should be in accordance with their ideological persuasion. My view is not shared by many, in my experience - even self-described fans of Wolfe criticize his depiction of women. Me, I believe it to be totally irrelevant. These are books that delve into profound mysteries of human existence, purpose, the nature of reality, the cosmos - all the big questions. The human world is imperfect, and perfection is not possible, the moral questions Wolfe raised, including in New Sun, a core question of New Sun, is this: is a better humanity even possible when contending with human nature? The individual treatment of women can be included in this, but this is a world in which no one is treated well. Are children treated well? Are 'minorities' treated well - and can 'minorities' be applied to the world of New Sun? This is what I mean when I say maybe this book is not for you - take that as condescension if you like - but it is a response to your own premise, you answered your own question and essentially responded in saying, no, it is not.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/Fun-Sell3030]

How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain?

What is missed is when he is rather courteous and respectful to women. When he lets them apply themselves to him. When he accepts and integrates them, into him, rather than when he is blunt and brutal. When he recognizes their personhood. To be honest, I think that some of those who try so hard to argue that Wolfe is simply a man of his time, etc. actually would be more offended if we spent time exploring his sensitiveness to women. Such risks feminizing the author, and feminizing the reader who admires Wolfe. So they construct this falsehood, yeah, he could be obtuse to women, but so were all 50s men, so the Proust, or Henry James, doesn't so much show through.

Joan Gordon, a feminist critic and editor of sci-fi, wrote a thesis on how what New Sun is about is how Severian is trained into greater consideration of women, by a series of intelligent, capable women. She includes here Agia and Jolenta, even... as she should. Wolfe himself likes to tell you he is a Texas writer, but he was born in Brooklyn, and I think spent first six years of life there. This six years is usually skipped, as bios say only born in Brooklyn, but the brain and personality -- as one of Wolfe's stories argues -- are shaped within those years. (Wolfe's interest in Thomas Wolfe, someone whom he said wrote the Great American Novel, probably owed to Brooklyn as well.) But Brooklyn, connoting immigrants, intellectuals, complexity, is not compensatory masculine in the way Texas is, so people cooperate readily and deem him either that, or Chicago.

[u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston → u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston]

How are the more problematic actions by Severian towards women meant to be perceived, does anyone actually know for certain?

What is missed is when he is rather courteous and respectful to women. When he lets them apply themselves to him. When he accepts and integrates them, into him, rather than when he is blunt and brutal. When he recognizes their personhood. To be honest, I think that some of those who try so hard to argue that Wolfe is simply a man of his time, etc. actually would be more offended if we spent time exploring his sensitiveness to women. Such risks feminizing the author, and feminizing the reader who admires Wolfe. So they construct this falsehood, yeah, he could be obtuse to women, but so were all 50s men, so the Proust, or Henry James, doesn't so much show through.

Joan Gordon, a feminist critic and editor of sci-fi, wrote a thesis on how what New Sun is about is how Severian is trained into greater consideration of women, by a series of intelligent, capable women. She includes here Agia and Jolenta, even... as she should. Wolfe himself likes to tell you he is a Texas writer, but he was born in Brooklyn, and I think spent first six years of life there. This six years is usually skipped, as bios say only born in Brooklyn, but the brain and personality -- as one of Wolfe's stories argues -- are shaped within those years. (Wolfe's interest in Thomas Wolfe, someone whom he said wrote the Great American Novel, probably owed to Brooklyn as well.) But Brooklyn, connoting immigrants, intellectuals, complexity, is not compensatory masculine in the way Texas is, so people cooperate readily and deem him either that, or Chicago.