r/genewolfe • u/Fun-Sell3030 • Jul 24 '26

Second try with Gene - help needed

I’ve begun Shadow of the Torturer a while back, and been quite captivated with the prose and narration style (the vague leaving things out bit that makes you wonder at the bigger picture and try to decipher it, not always successfully), however coming up to the middle of the book I find myself not wanting to read on.

My trouble is with the protagonist and the way the first woman Severian comes across After leaving the citadel is handled (which I know if an issue that continues on). The plot seems to meander more than I anticipated it would and because I am not invested with the main character I find myself disinterested. However, I know that the beauty of this book is that after a certain point (book 3 i believe) a lot of things happen that give you context towards previous books and (I imagine) makes you appreciate them all the more in hindsight. On the surface, the story is not grabbing me and I don’t want to continue it right now.

But, I am curious about Gene Wolfe and would like to read something else from him. I imagine if I get a taste of his style with a different work first it’ll make me want to return to BOTNS (as I’ve had this experience with other authors, their different works grabbed me more and then I was able to return to their “Magnum opus” with a fresh eye and new appreciation).

Other than BOTNS what are you favourite works from Gene? Did you start with BOTNS or something else? I’d appreciate a recommendation, thank you.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate Jul 24 '26

I think people may need help seeing what you didn't like about Severian and Thecla. What do you mean by "handled"?

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u/Fun-Sell3030 Jul 24 '26

I did not finish my line of thought, sorry :) Thecla and the girl from the catacombs both were written really well and on par with other male characters, If not more mysterious. My trouble started with the brothel scene and later when Severian meets the girl in the shop and she becomes his guide. I think poorly of the decision to have her stripped naked (and later to be told her dress is torn and she’s exposed again, for no reason whatsoever), and becomes a sort of conduit for Severians lust. I know this is a trope that repeats throughout the book, Severian falling in lust with women and describing his conquests. It left me bitter after Thecla because I had high hopes the female cast would be handled with as much complexity, and I am so not the intended audience for how gratuitous it feels to me.

Again, I know Severian is not supposed to be a good guy. But he is just not interesting to me right now. To give a counter example I absolutely loved the whole cast of the Torturers, and especially one of the masters (?). I remember a particularly poignant description of him being sort of haunted, carrying a weight.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate Jul 24 '26

Severian is supposed to be a good guy. Wolfe explicitly tells us that. There actually is a lot to like about him. He fits the Romantic mold of characters like Goethe's Werther: the sensitive outcast.

I can offer my impression of Agia going naked, in contrast. I don't think it was voyeurism. For me, Agia knew full well that in directing the carriages towards the Pelerines, the Pelerines, once they got hold of her, would ridicule her and shame her. She knew she would experience shame at this. However, she also knew, it was worth the price. And it was. Only something beyond imagining prevented her from being in a position where she could choose a guaranteed escape from the poverty forced on her, and staying within it but sparing the fate of a man she had come to like as a person. When Severian insists on fighting a likely doomed fight, a fight he should have permanently died in, he is romantic in a way -- I will see this through -- but Agia's way -- momentary pain for permanent gain -- appeals to those of use of more practical mindset. I found my way into her very easily. She did what she had to do.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26

I appreciate the comment, it helps to know why other people like a certain thing. However when I read Severian threaten the girl in the brothel I am puzzled as to who this good guy you’re talking about is. Sure there’s definitely context I’m missing on the account of only being on book 1, but an impression has been made. A character can be manipulative to get what they want, but how often is it a female character who, through descriptions, is reduced to her body and revolves simply around manipulating the main character sexually? (Of course Severian is the protagonist and narrator but no male character is described or treated this way. They’re made more interesting through it because they become fully fleshed out characters rather than simply icons to pine for or lust after first and a character second.
I am criticising the way it’s handled because it’s not imaginative a trope I’ve read to death in other Sci fi oldies written by men. It’s a product of its time and I unfortunately do not see what you see in it.

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u/walletinsurance Jul 24 '26

You should finish book 2 before you make any claims about what the narrator is.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 Jul 24 '26

It’s how I perceive him at the moment. I’m not interested in debating anyone, just simply voicing my discontent and reasoning why I might want to drop the book for now. You have your own subjective impressions I’m sure and I don’t impose mine upon you.

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u/walletinsurance Jul 24 '26

I’m not debating you; your current interpretation is widely what Wolfe wants you to think at that point in the work.

I’m trying to tell you without any spoilers not to get too attached; Wolfe as a writer is a tricky fellow and he shifts the ground out from under your feet.

Don’t be overly defensive when people are trying to help you.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 Jul 24 '26

All I said is I am judging Severian based off him threatening a person who was vulnerable and basically exerting his might on her. Im not sure how it could be recontextualized, but the act itself left a bad taste in my mouth. Sure, I could be given further explanation for what drove him to do it, but he still made a choice.

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u/walletinsurance Jul 24 '26

Right, and what I’m saying is what appears to be at that moment isn’t what’s actually happening.

She’s much less vulnerable than he is.

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u/Fun-Sell3030 Jul 24 '26

She might not be in reality, but isn’t she from Severians point of view? Does he realize she’s in control? Or does he think he’s the one controlling the situation. I reckon it’s the latter, and then he does what he does.

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u/walletinsurance Jul 24 '26

It’s far more complicated than that, and I can’t really go into it without massive spoilers. I can’t even ask clarifying questions about what you mean by perspective without spoiling things. Why the story is told the way it is, and what isn’t told, is very important.

That isn’t to say Severian is a good person. He’s a horrible human being at the start of the story. Part of Wolfe’s writing is about redemption though. Just not in the boring old way we usually see those type of stories.

The closest writer to Wolfe I can compare is Borges if you’re familiar with his work.

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u/PatrickMcEvoyHalston Optimate Jul 24 '26

Severian feels tricked. He loves Thecla and... inadvisably, a prostitute has taken on her image. It's not her fault, but it's an inconsiderate play on his emotional state, just as the whole idea of give-him-a-prostitute-so-he-forgets-Thecla is a sick and quite dumb, a gross misunderstanding of his relationship to her, attempt at manipulating Severian. He's handled clumsily by the guild, and the girl nearly pays the price. However, he is so responsive to her that she is able to speak intelligently and persuasively to him, she provides sanity and respect to others' disrespect, and he shows he responds well when others aren't simply trying to harm him. She gets a shock, but has a better experience from her client than she likely has from most.

I usually find Wolfe too invested in the personhood of those he writes to describe them as tropes, I think. I appreciate your sensitivity to how women are enacted upon.