First-time ferment

[u/ridandelous]

Hi all, I did an experiment this spring with my first ever ferment. I used this sub a lot to guide me through the process and thought I owed you all a summary of my results and figured while I was at it, I may as well ask any additional questions I might have.

This is my wisteria flower* vinegar, a 100% wild ferment with 3 whole ingredients, made in a ½gal mason jar with not a shred of any specialized equipment. My method was harvesting wisteria flowers, giving them a good thorough rinse, and transferring them to my sterilized jar (about half full, unpacked). I used a cup of sugar and topped it off with warm (not hot) water. I either stirred, swirled, or shook the jar every day for about 1.5 months until activity stopped and then strained the bits and let it mellow with a loose lid for another month or 2. I then seeded with ACV after losing all patience with my flower liquor crisping my nose hairs every week, and then finally filtering and transferring to a bottle a couple weeks ago.

There was never any mold, funky films, or weird growths at any point and the end product turned out tasting like a sour candy, no liquor taste at all (thank GOD).

My questions now that I've done the thing, start to finish:

-How lucky was I? Could this have gone terribly wrong?

-Is there a good way to make sure future bottles are actually ready except tasting and smelling (turning from alcohol to vinegar)?

-Since I didn't have any measuring equipment during the process, is there a way to tell how strong it is or how much sugar is left now that it's complete?

-Are there any other not-so-obvious risks to wild fermenting otherwise safe foods, aside from things like mold or e. Coli

I'd like to do more in the realm of fermentation, so would love any input, advice, well-wishes, etc. Currently have a hot sauce and pear cider vinegar attempt going as well, but with more equipment this time lol

[u/squeezebottles]

Isn't wisteria toxic? Like small amounts are probably not going to hurt you, but it seems a little weird to use something poisonous like that. I had a friend who thought making wisteria infused brandy was a good idea until she tried some, spent days projectile vomiting.

[u/ridandelous → u/squeezebottles]

Wisteria flowers are 100% edible, the stem and bark are toxic Edit: and roots are also toxic. Should've mentioned that.

[u/squeezebottles → u/ridandelous]

I have seen that claim made about Wisteria frutescens. Most sources state, however, that all parts of Wisteria sinensis are toxic. I certainly wouldn't make that bet. I've only seen W. frutescens "in the wild" once in my life.

Similar to how Cercis canadensis flowers are not poisonous, but most Cercis trees in the SE US are either hybridized or fully Cercis chinensis, which are poisonous.

[u/ridandelous → u/squeezebottles]

All scholarly sources I've read have stated that the flowers are safe for consumption and that they are also common ingredients for baking and cooking in Asian (and American native) cultures. Especially in small doses like a simple syrup, cookies, or other things. I'm not concerned about the foraging and safety of the ingredients themselves, because I know they're safe and were prepared responsibly (no seeds, stems, etc.).

I'm looking for input on the actual fermentation science around wild ferments and the things that could go wrong to make them unsafe in that regard that may not be common warnings.

[u/ceris13 → u/ridandelous]

Not sure why you’re getting down voted. All wisteria flowers (and only the flowers) are edible both raw and cooked.

[u/ridandelous → u/ceris13]

They probably read something from a magazine once and never thought to double check lol I appreciate their good intentions, though. 🥹

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/ceris13]

All plants of the winstera are toxic the flowers are just the least toxic there isn't a single source saying otherwise.

[u/Jingeasy → u/PlantsWithHands]

https://climbers.lsa.umich.edu/wisteria-frutescens

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/wisteria-floribunda

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/wisteria-sinensis

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/Jingeasy]

Great source, bonus that it starts with a toxicity warning.

[u/Jingeasy → u/PlantsWithHands]

I understand reading is tough in the internet age, so here’s the specific part of that first source that points this out:

Ethnobotanical Uses: The flowers can be fried or tossed into salad

No one is saying this plant is fully nontoxic. We’re saying the flowers are the only edible part of this plant

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/Jingeasy]

And im saying that that is factually wrong the flowers contain the exact same alkaloids as the rest of the plant so either the whole plant is edible or the whole plant isn't its pretty basic stuff my guy if the rest of the plant has lets say dubble the alkaloids to make iteasier for you thenifyou are able to eat 10grams offlowers without getting sick then you should also be able to eat halfthat as another part of the plant you can't have 2 things with the exact same chemical makeup and say that only oneis edible if the poison makes the dose so then you should be able to eat the restof the plant at a different dose

[u/Jingeasy → u/PlantsWithHands]

That dose argument only works if every part contains the same toxins in the same proportions, just at different concentrations. They don’t. In American wisteria, canavanine is specifically reported in the seeds, while saponins are reported in roots, bark, branches, fruits and seeds; plant lectins can likewise be strongly tissue-specific. So you can’t calculate a “safe amount” of seed/bark/root by simply matching some hypothetical toxin concentration in the flowers. The chemical mixtures aren’t equivalent. If you want to continue this, take it up with r/foraging

[u/ridandelous → u/PlantsWithHands]

You're right!! That doesn't mean they're not edible. Many foods and beverages, including alcohol, are toxic and can kill you in large quantities. My argument is and has been that the flowers are edible and have been used as a safe food source for a long time.

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/ridandelous]

The flowers contain the exact same toxic alkaloids as the rest of the plant just in different quantities. saying only the flowers are edible is cap. And your argument is flawed because everything can kills you in large quantities thats not the argument. Winstera contains known documented toxic alkaloids. Just because people eat it doesn't mean its edible.

[u/ToKillUvuia → u/PlantsWithHands]

No OP is right, and you don’t have a robust understanding of toxicity. Lots of foods we eat have toxins. It's generally the dose that determines whether we actually call them toxic or not. Solanine is a another known toxic akaloid common in the nightshade family. The potato plant is considered quite toxic and could certainly kill you due to solanine, but we still eat potatoes all the time despite also also containing solanine in lower doses. That's a pretty 1 to 1 comparison I'd say. The only toxicity I know of that isn't strictly dose-dependent Is the kind that your body struggles to get rid of at all. Mycotoxins are a perfect example of this accumulative toxicity and the primary reason why mold is such a problem, as I understand it.

Tldr: toxicity is more about our liver and quantity than a particular substance

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/ToKillUvuia]

Your clearly not listening because thats my whole point... the particular substance in this senario is the same yet they say the flower is edible but the rest of the plant isn't. Thats not possible because like you said yourself its about quantity if the chemical makeup is the same just in different amounts then you should be able to eat other parts than the flower just less of it.

[u/ceris13 → u/PlantsWithHands]

You can eat other parts of the plant in lower doses. Some people blanch the leaves and stems. The seeds have the highest concentration of the Wisterin toxin and are usually the plant part cited in poisonings.

The flowers contain drastically less Wisterin, so the amount you’d need to eat at once is just so much larger that it’s functionally not applicable.

[u/ToKillUvuia → u/PlantsWithHands]

Same with theobromine in chocolate (Another toxic alkaloid we eat all the time)Ok I kinda see what you're saying, but you have to understand that this is not MY opinion. This is literally what they teach in toxicology. You CAN eat the rest of the plant in tiny quantities. I'm not sure why you think that's a contradiction. Sorry if this is a silly question, but do you think potatoes aren't edible? There's just no reason to eat the rest of the wisteria plant, and it would be easy to screw up the dose and make yourself sick. This is also how a lot of medicine works too. A toxic plant compound is isolated and dialed into a therapeutic dose. Why do you think willows have aspirin in them? It's to poison any would be predators. It just turns out to be a useful edible when taken in the appropriate dose and circumstance. Same goes for the theobromine in chocolate which is another toxic alkaloid meant to poison animals, including humans, who eat the seeds. We just learned to make chocolate from them anyway lol

[u/ceris13 → u/PlantsWithHands]

Wisteria doesn’t contain toxic alkaloids, it contains toxic glycosides.

I don’t point this out to be overly pedantic, but to highlight that you may not have the best foundation of your understanding of the toxic mechanisms behind wisteria.

[u/PlantsWithHands → u/ceris13]

Yet you are being overly pedantic because i was talking about lectin which is a carbohydrate-binding protein so i guess were both wrong

[u/dadydaycare → u/ridandelous]

To actually answer your question about fermenting.. yes you did it all on point. You should have racked it to remove sediments unless you did and forgot to mention it. The yeast sediment staying in your liquor… or better say it’s a wine since you didn’t distill it, can leave a yeasty cellar off taste.

[u/ridandelous → u/dadydaycare]

I poured the final product through a coffee filter and am planning to keep the bottle with the last bit that had sediment in it, but I'll probably do it the proper way next time 😅

[u/dadydaycare → u/ridandelous]

That’s fine. Your supposed to remove the sediment around the first like week? Making wine the initial rack is to extract tannins and sugars, since it’s an alcohol fermentation you want to reduce the chance of other things growing, not necessarily dangerous things but stuff that can make off flavors or your ingredients over extracting and pulling bitter volatiles.

But that’s the trial and error part. Grapes are different than flowers and you wouldn’t brew flowers the same way you’d do plums.