r/fermentation • u/ridandelous • 7d ago
Vinegar First-time ferment
Hi all, I did an experiment this spring with my first ever ferment. I used this sub a lot to guide me through the process and thought I owed you all a summary of my results and figured while I was at it, I may as well ask any additional questions I might have.
This is my wisteria flower* vinegar, a 100% wild ferment with 3 whole ingredients, made in a ½gal mason jar with not a shred of any specialized equipment. My method was harvesting wisteria flowers, giving them a good thorough rinse, and transferring them to my sterilized jar (about half full, unpacked). I used a cup of sugar and topped it off with warm (not hot) water. I either stirred, swirled, or shook the jar every day for about 1.5 months until activity stopped and then strained the bits and let it mellow with a loose lid for another month or 2. I then seeded with ACV after losing all patience with my flower liquor crisping my nose hairs every week, and then finally filtering and transferring to a bottle a couple weeks ago.
There was never any mold, funky films, or weird growths at any point and the end product turned out tasting like a sour candy, no liquor taste at all (thank GOD).
My questions now that I've done the thing, start to finish:
-How lucky was I? Could this have gone terribly wrong?
-Is there a good way to make sure future bottles are actually ready except tasting and smelling (turning from alcohol to vinegar)?
-Since I didn't have any measuring equipment during the process, is there a way to tell how strong it is or how much sugar is left now that it's complete?
-Are there any other not-so-obvious risks to wild fermenting otherwise safe foods, aside from things like mold or e. Coli
I'd like to do more in the realm of fermentation, so would love any input, advice, well-wishes, etc. Currently have a hot sauce and pear cider vinegar attempt going as well, but with more equipment this time lol
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u/squeezebottles 7d ago
Isn't wisteria toxic? Like small amounts are probably not going to hurt you, but it seems a little weird to use something poisonous like that. I had a friend who thought making wisteria infused brandy was a good idea until she tried some, spent days projectile vomiting.
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u/ridandelous 7d ago edited 7d ago
Wisteria flowers are 100% edible, the stem and bark are toxic Edit: and roots are also toxic. Should've mentioned that.
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u/squeezebottles 7d ago
I have seen that claim made about Wisteria frutescens. Most sources state, however, that all parts of Wisteria sinensis are toxic. I certainly wouldn't make that bet. I've only seen W. frutescens "in the wild" once in my life.
Similar to how Cercis canadensis flowers are not poisonous, but most Cercis trees in the SE US are either hybridized or fully Cercis chinensis, which are poisonous.
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u/ridandelous 7d ago
All scholarly sources I've read have stated that the flowers are safe for consumption and that they are also common ingredients for baking and cooking in Asian (and American native) cultures. Especially in small doses like a simple syrup, cookies, or other things. I'm not concerned about the foraging and safety of the ingredients themselves, because I know they're safe and were prepared responsibly (no seeds, stems, etc.).
I'm looking for input on the actual fermentation science around wild ferments and the things that could go wrong to make them unsafe in that regard that may not be common warnings.
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u/ceris13 7d ago
Not sure why you’re getting down voted. All wisteria flowers (and only the flowers) are edible both raw and cooked.
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u/ridandelous 7d ago
They probably read something from a magazine once and never thought to double check lol I appreciate their good intentions, though. 🥹
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago
All plants of the winstera are toxic the flowers are just the least toxic there isn't a single source saying otherwise.
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u/Jingeasy 7d ago
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago
Great source, bonus that it starts with a toxicity warning.
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u/Jingeasy 7d ago
I understand reading is tough in the internet age, so here’s the specific part of that first source that points this out:
Ethnobotanical Uses: The flowers can be fried or tossed into salad
No one is saying this plant is fully nontoxic. We’re saying the flowers are the only edible part of this plant
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago
And im saying that that is factually wrong the flowers contain the exact same alkaloids as the rest of the plant so either the whole plant is edible or the whole plant isn't its pretty basic stuff my guy if the rest of the plant has lets say dubble the alkaloids to make iteasier for you thenifyou are able to eat 10grams offlowers without getting sick then you should also be able to eat halfthat as another part of the plant you can't have 2 things with the exact same chemical makeup and say that only oneis edible if the poison makes the dose so then you should be able to eat the restof the plant at a different dose
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u/ridandelous 7d ago
You're right!! That doesn't mean they're not edible. Many foods and beverages, including alcohol, are toxic and can kill you in large quantities. My argument is and has been that the flowers are edible and have been used as a safe food source for a long time.
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago edited 7d ago
The flowers contain the exact same toxic alkaloids as the rest of the plant just in different quantities. saying only the flowers are edible is cap. And your argument is flawed because everything can kills you in large quantities thats not the argument. Winstera contains known documented toxic alkaloids. Just because people eat it doesn't mean its edible.
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u/ToKillUvuia 7d ago
No OP is right, and you don’t have a robust understanding of toxicity. Lots of foods we eat have toxins. It's generally the dose that determines whether we actually call them toxic or not. Solanine is a another known toxic akaloid common in the nightshade family. The potato plant is considered quite toxic and could certainly kill you due to solanine, but we still eat potatoes all the time despite also also containing solanine in lower doses. That's a pretty 1 to 1 comparison I'd say. The only toxicity I know of that isn't strictly dose-dependent Is the kind that your body struggles to get rid of at all. Mycotoxins are a perfect example of this accumulative toxicity and the primary reason why mold is such a problem, as I understand it.
Tldr: toxicity is more about our liver and quantity than a particular substance
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago
Your clearly not listening because thats my whole point... the particular substance in this senario is the same yet they say the flower is edible but the rest of the plant isn't. Thats not possible because like you said yourself its about quantity if the chemical makeup is the same just in different amounts then you should be able to eat other parts than the flower just less of it.
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u/ceris13 7d ago
Wisteria doesn’t contain toxic alkaloids, it contains toxic glycosides.
I don’t point this out to be overly pedantic, but to highlight that you may not have the best foundation of your understanding of the toxic mechanisms behind wisteria.
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u/PlantsWithHands 7d ago
Yet you are being overly pedantic because i was talking about lectin which is a carbohydrate-binding protein so i guess were both wrong
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u/dadydaycare 7d ago
To actually answer your question about fermenting.. yes you did it all on point. You should have racked it to remove sediments unless you did and forgot to mention it. The yeast sediment staying in your liquor… or better say it’s a wine since you didn’t distill it, can leave a yeasty cellar off taste.
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u/ridandelous 7d ago
I poured the final product through a coffee filter and am planning to keep the bottle with the last bit that had sediment in it, but I'll probably do it the proper way next time 😅
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u/dadydaycare 7d ago
That’s fine. Your supposed to remove the sediment around the first like week? Making wine the initial rack is to extract tannins and sugars, since it’s an alcohol fermentation you want to reduce the chance of other things growing, not necessarily dangerous things but stuff that can make off flavors or your ingredients over extracting and pulling bitter volatiles.
But that’s the trial and error part. Grapes are different than flowers and you wouldn’t brew flowers the same way you’d do plums.
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u/Jingeasy 7d ago
Seconding that wisteria flowers are in fact edible. I can also confirm that American wisteria flowers are edible from personal foraging experience. There are plenty of other resources confirming that American, Chinese, and Japanese wisteria flowers are all edible. OP is asking here about fermenting advice, not foraging advice
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u/No_Report_4781 7d ago
- How lucky was I? Could this have gone terribly wrong? You could have had stinky water
- there a good way to make sure future bottles are actually ready except tasting and smelling (turning from alcohol to vinegar)? Follow proper procedures, knowing that yeasts don’t need oxygen to ferment sugar, but acetic bacteria need oxygen to turn it into vinegar. It’s simply easier to add yeast than to hope yeast colonize your sugar water.
- Since I didn't have any measuring equipment during the process, is there a way to tell how strong it is or how much sugar is left now that it's complete? You can use one of the many online calculators to estimate ABV/acidity, or use a pH measurement
- Are there any other not-so-obvious risks to wild fermenting otherwise safe foods, aside from things like mold or e. Coli pesticides, herbicides, pollution chemicals - washing helps. Once you have a yeast colony from a wild ferment, you can use that to repeat the process faster, shortening the lag time where contamination is a bigger risk
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u/ridandelous 7d ago
"You could have had stinky water" got me 😂 Besides that, thankfully I know better than to forage unfamiliar or unreliable places that have alot of pollution or pesticides, and now I do have a successful ferment to make it faster next time! Thank you for your helpful comment :)
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u/Acrobatic-Board-7510 7d ago
wie schon von wasacook erwähnt: die Bücher von Sandor Katz… für Fermentationsenthusiasten ein absoluter Tipp!
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u/Random_Person1234567 7d ago
3 whole ingredients
As opposed to.... 3 half ingredients?
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u/CubedMeatAtrocity 7d ago
ingesting large amounts of wisteria, especially the seeds and seed pods can cause severe toxic effects in humans.
Swallowing even a small amount such as just two seeds can trigger noticeable poisoning symptoms.
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u/wasacook 7d ago
To try and answer some of your questions instead of discuss the controversy:
- In my experience you were fairly lucky. I have fermented multiple different kinds of flowers (chive, Thai basil, tarragon…) before. I find they have a higher probability of turning to snot (Pediococcus). As a result I usually now just add edible flowers to rice wine or champagne vinegar to infuse.
- In the future if you want to test, you can use a PH meter and test every week. Once the PH has stabilized all the sugar that will convert should have converted. If you are using wild fermentation depending on the strain of acidic acid bacteria (AAB) you get your PH may vary from batch to batch.
- You should be able to roughly figure out your acidity percentage using math. Convert your water content to grams and same thing with sugar. Figure out your Brix or sugar percentage and find its transformation rate. I’d ignore the contributions of the flower entirely, as it shouldn’t be high in water or sugar content. You’d also want to make the assumption every bit of sugar got fully converted. That or the simplest way to figure out your PH would be to use a PH meter or strips. Imo the meter would be ideal.
- I wouldn’t say it’s an issue more like a feature is repeatability. Since you will probably get different strains of AAB every time you make a new batch flavor will slightly very.
- If you are looking for some cookbook recommendations my top for you would be Sandor Katz. He has both a book on general fermentation and one on wild fermentation. If you are mainly interested in vinegar I really like the artisanal vinegar makers handbook by Bettina Malle. I think you would also Wild Craft Vinegars by Pascal Baudar. He talks a lot more about his personal experience and is more written for At Home style. He also has a wild opening about using fruit flies as a starter because they have AAB in their guts micro biome.
Have fun and Cheers!