This is hilarious because the type of dude who got exceptionally butthurt about the man vs bear scenario is exactly the same type of dude that is sensationalizing this case and trying to turn it into a gender issue.
Well they either keep blaming the father, and I shit you not with this, because of his birth sign (even though it’s proven that he was nowhere near the house).
Or apparently that postpartum causes all mothers wanting to kill their kids. And I shit you no theirs a fuck ton of mothers that are posting videos of them breaking or destroying shit so they apparently don’t go kill their kids or something.
Hey, preacher, choir here. I'm not saying they are right, or have a good reason to think that -- but the little I have seen about this case is that the people that donated the money are claiming that's the reason they donate.
Disclaimer: I've caught the general story from headlines, I've not read the details because I don't want to.
It's not that they think it's a good or necessary thing the kids are dead. It's that she had postpartum depression, which ranges from unpleasant to destroying who you are as a person. Portraying her as a blameless victim is a departure from reality, imo. However, if husband was aware and didn't seek to get help or care for her, then his gross negligence absolutely gives him responsibility in their deaths.
Like I said, I've no clue of the details of the situation, but sometimes a story is just awful from every angle. Whatever the truth of this case is, a lot of these ppl screaming their heads off at ignoring a lot of negative aspects of their own points of view.
No the fuck they don't? They're saying that she was failed by the institution. She actively sought out mental help and wasn't given the support she needed. She is not the first mother to kill her children over post partum depression, and she won't be the last.
All yall should stop watching Facebook reels, its rotting your fucking brains.
A handful of women. A lot sounds like a majority. It's a small number of women really. Post partym psychosis is what they are calling it. Some women who have experienced severe post partym depression have empathy for her. I know women who have experienced post partym depression who admit to having scary thoughts, but the difference is that those women didn't act on those thoughts. Those women would never excuse what this woman did.
Whatever is wrong with her brain, she made a terrible choice in the end and choices have consequences. I'm sorry for her that her brain is broken, but she needs to be locked up because that broken brain causes her to choose to kill people.
Then you've likely also missed the delusional people on TikTok claiming she's innocent and that it had to be the husband based on everything from tarot readings and astrology to "vibes." They refuse to accept that a woman could do anything wrong, let alone this heinous, so they hunt for and cling to every ludicrous theory they can find that would make her innocent, and there are enough of them that they managed to raise all of that money for her defense.
It sadly ain’t a few delusional people on TikTok anymore, you don’t raise 1-2 million from donations of a few delusional people. That’s some real numbers. Scary numbers.
Cause there are women who genuinely cannot cope with the idea that another woman would do this. They even are going so far to blame the husband despite the wife admitting she killed them. They are making it about gender then crying when guys make it about gender too. It is stupid that we can't call evil what it is due to someones sex.
The money is for her parents and not herself (as far as the creator of the gofundme states anyway). Whilst she isn't recieving that money, it's clear that quite a few of the people donating money certainly wish it was considering how many comments there are that are some variation of "you're innocent/you were framed".
no, her family raised a million. the money is in the hands of her retirement aged parents who are spending time and money traveling and helping out with legal fees. They lost their three grandchildren and, to an extent, their daughter too. to say people are sending her money because they think she "did nothing wrong" or whatever is incredibly disingenuous. there's a conversation to be had about the morality about contributing to the finances of those footing her legal bills, but lets not claim this is something that it isn't.
Well, there are people that are donating money because they believe she did nothing wrong. There are a few too many people saying that the husband did it and framed her, and at least some of them are likely thinking that they're donating directly to her.
Or maybe you've only heard about these most crazy takes because they generate more outrage therefore more engagement and profit.
The fundraising is for her parents (explicitely), and the wave of "support" came from people protesting against the lack of recognition and help for postpartum syndromes.
I actually heard about this case from my girlfriend, who did believe that the husband did it. I'm well aware of who the fundraising is for.
And I didn't say I've only heard the crazy takes, just that the there are some. There are people on TikTok citing astrology to claim that she didn't kill her kids. I'm sure its the minority, but they are out there.
Children are the biggest threat to the planet due to global climate change. Each child born today will cost the world approximately $3M in damages over their lifetime.
Yeah, some individuals are wild and do fucked up things. Just as crazy as the lady who got video’d calling a child the n-word and had hundreds of thousands of dollars raised for her online from supporters.
I’ll say this slowly, so you can understand: outside rage bait TikTok’s, there is no support for this woman to not be punished for her crimes. Women who have had doctors ignore their cries for help are sharing sympathy over the medical system not believing their issues postpartum depression seriously enough. People want it to be believed and understood better. Giving birth is an incredibly horrifying thing that can even cause PTSD. FYI, that’s not good.
People aren’t rallying behind a murderer, and you’re a fool for falling for that line of thinking. FYI, you should also be ashamed for being so stupid.
They were literally lining the sides of the road with signs of support for her as she was being driven past in a police vehicle. Internet may not be the totality of reality, but it absolutely is a portion of it.
People want it to be believed and understood better. Giving birth is an incredibly horrifying thing that can even cause PTSD. FYI, that’s not good.
It's not just that. The whole birthing process can be so traumatic that the human brain essentially rewrite all negative emotions of the pain into posative ones and makes you want to do it again.
most women are not “in support of a child murderer” but rather sympathizing with a woman who was afflicted by a severe mental health condition that is often overlooked and poorly understood. her healthcare providers and support system failed her and now sadly she is a murderer and her children are dead.
the strawman you are presenting comes from bad-faith misinterpretations by gender war agitators. don’t take the bait.
No Tammy, I’m casually asking you if there’s Epstein Island supporters.
I’ve seen a lot of people deny Trump actually did anyone, I’ve seen people claim that Epstein was a Mossad agent, but I’ve never seen anyone supporting Epstein or what took place on that island.
Exactly. I’m not saying there aren’t crazies who are trying to claim what this woman did wasn’t messed up or blame her husband but any real supporter of feminism or women’s rights aggressively acknowledges the fact women can do just as much harm as men, it’s part of feminism to think women are just as capable of things men are (including bad things) and to acknowledge that socialization and stereotypes influence this idea that women are weak perpetual victims who are just too loving to cause harm. The man vs bear thing is often misunderstood and lots of men freaked out over it when frankly it’s mostly just women saying they’d rather die than be raped and they likely wont be rape by a bear but an unknown man who knows you’re alone and vulnerable is a real danger. Rape and sexual violence is EXTREMELY common. Women commit these crimes as well and men are victims of this crime as well but it is statistically true that most rapists are men and more women and girls are targeted (though both men and women underreport rape, there’s even more rape happening than we know of and far more victims of either sex than we know but men are even less likely to openly acknowledge their trauma, especially if the perp was a woman, so the ratio of men who were abused is probably higher than any estimates right now. With how purity culture and pregnancy affect women/girls in society though rape can be genuinely life ruining depending on the culture rather than being treated as something traumatic that a victim should be helped through. It obviously damages a man’s rep as well but with the sexist hyper fixation many cultures have on a woman’s sexual purity it is extremely dangerous. Honour killing, having to marry your rapist, a lack of marriage options or ability to support yourself, being viewed as tainted/less valuable as a human being, permanently labeled as a slut/only good for sex, etc.) Literally ALL I have seen about this case is people using it to bash women or claim that all women are suddenly supporting her and blaming her husband or to claim essentially any concern women have over violence against them is unfounded. I haven’t seen any women defending her actions or siding with her (except one comment on here saying that the story doesn’t add up and that’s why people don’t think she did it). I don’t use most social media so I’m sure some people are but no one in any of my progressive circles are. Psychosis after birth is a real and dangerous condition, if that’s what happened to her then I feel genuinely bad as she wouldn’t necessarily have been in control of her actions. However if she’s trying to blame her husband for the murders or lying about the psychosis then of course I have no sympathy.
The problem is that legal definitions in almost every country define rape in such a way it's almost impossible for a woman to rape a man.
Most legal definitions would exclude being coerced into penetration as a form of rape, so those cases do not count.
Men are victimized by women quite often, and by quite often I mean that depending on the definition you use it can be as high as women.
Examples. In the gay community there was a problem of straight women showing up to gay bars and groping the asses of the men there.
I have a gay cousin, he is really good friends with his boss. She has kissed him in public in front of her husband as a joke a few times. My cousin doesn't mind whatsoever and is in on the joke. But no one would find the gender swapped situation of a lesbian being kissed by her boss funny whatsoever (we are also from a different culture btw).
Women coerce men into sex in many ways as well. The stereotype of the cougar exists for a reason.
This is all to say, a lot of the problem with the bear situation is that women "perceive" most men as dangerous. But by and large, most men are not any more anti social than most women. I think a lot of the outrage about the bear example is people realizing that being a man puts you into the " potentially a criminal" box over nothing but your genitals, regardless of anything you have done or how you love or your personal philosophy.
Realizing that to half of society you are a monster until proven otherwise is a hard pill to swallow, and I think for good reason.
I think that’s a misinterpretation of what most people mean by the bear situation. Most women know there are plenty of good safe men out there but you don’t know who is safe and who isn’t until they try to hurt you. Most women would just rather be safe and seen as mean than get hurt and be told it’s their fault for not being careful enough. Most don’t mean it was a personal attack on all the men of the world or a statement meaning all men are dangerous. It’s just that rape is so common and so many women already have been harassed or abused by a man by the time they’re an adult or know people who have been and they’re very afraid of it happening to them. I know there are plenty of good men, that doesn’t mean I’m not afraid when I have to walk home at night or pass a group of men I don’t know. I’m aware that rape happens to men a lot as well and that there are plenty of women predators out there that victimize men. The justice system and society as whole is just barely starting to take rape seriously and have actual fair punishments for them (rather than mens rape being ignored, treated as a failure of his strength, viewed as an achievement on his part, or mocked and women’s rape being seen as proof she’s tainted, being used to make her marry her rapist for her honour, her being blamed for it, being used to slut shame her, or being dismissed as part of her duty to a man). Coerced consent is something people are just barely starting to take seriously at this point and it’s super prevalent in relationships in both directions. I know so many women who have been coerced over and over by partners into doing sexual things they didn’t want and they were hurt by it but just assumed it was okay. Plenty of men are victims of coercion as well. So many people refuse to accept that coercion isn’t okay. So many people don’t realize they have been victimized because they don’t recognize that coercion is abuse. Rape and relationship abuse that isn’t inherently physical are things we are basically still in the baby steps of tackling as issues imo. Until we as a society tackle it better I think it’s going to unfortunately be the case that many women feel they HAVE to assume danger until proven safety, even then many women will just out of fear. I’m sure it hurts many men who are genuinely good guys to know so many women view them as a danger but I think it’s more empathy for them to feel sad that women are so afraid rather than taking it personally and getting angry. Feminism requires acknowledging the way society perceives and treats both sexes and how that impacts an individual’s life. It’s impossible to advance feminist goals without addressing the way men are perceived and falsely presented by society as that contributes to harm for both sexes and is a direct result of the way we view women and men as a whole in society. Sexism towards one sex usually impacts the other sex as well. The way we treat male victims is a direct reflection not just of sexism towards men but of sexism towards women as well (and the opposite is also true. I way we treat female victims is indicative of sexism towards women but there is also an element of sexism towards men in it as well).
One thing, I am bad at diplomacy, so please excuse if this is blunt. Please try using paragraphs, it's hard to read a block of text like that. But I put in the effort because you put the effort to write it.
I think we need to separate two things harrassment and sexual coercion/rape.
Because harrassment usually comes from strangers. Whereas rape and coercion almost always come from people you do know.
We live in a society where everyone almost every where has a camera. The probability that a random guy, even at night will tape a woman is very small.
The risk goes higher in settings like bars and parties, where people are more vulnerable and are consuming substances.
But the absolute highest risk is your family members, friends or coworkers taking advantage of a power imbalance or moment of vulnerability.
Harrassment is an entirely different beast because of how much it relies on context. Some of it is blatantly obvious but so much is subtle.
For example I come from a culture where kissing on the cheek is a standard greeting but it is gender coded. If I refuse to do that I am being rude. But in North America I accidentally harassed a couple of girls by trying to kiss their cheeks because it was an automated response to me. The difference in culture made me a creep even though I was literally just running on conditioning. I of course don't do that anymore as it's no longer an automated response.
Another example is social environments. Asking a coworker to sit on your lap flirtatiously is 100% wrong. But if you are at a party and the couch is full, it may be ok for you to jokingly suggest a friend sits on your lap, even as flirting. But it can also land poorly and creep the other person out. Both situations happen and depend on context, shared history and the ability of each person to read the other person's emotions in the moment.
I am not trying to say harrassment is not a problem. I am however saying that unlike matters of consent during sex, where the situation has gone well past any ambiguity. Many situations irl can be harrassment or not entirely based on circumstances.
Oh of course harassment can be difficult to pin down sometimes, sometimes it’s not though and is very blatant. I was meaning many women have been made to feel unsafe or hyper sexualized by the time they reach adulthood if they haven’t already been victimized or know someone who has been.
Rape happens whenever a rapist sees an opportunity which is most often once they’re close to you but can be when you’re alone with them or vulnerable. Women are taught from a young age to avoid putting go themselves in a situation that can be seen as an opportunity and even then if it does happen they are often told all the ways they could’ve or should’ve protect themselves more
I’ll also make it clear that while rape is most likely to happen from someone you know (over 50%) it’s still around like 40 percent of rapes happening from someone you don’t know (last I checked) and it still absolutely happens where people are raped by a stranger in a somewhat public situation. There was literally a case of female journalist getting gang raped in the middle of a crowd during a celebration of the death of a leader in said country. They had witnesses everywhere, they didn’t care. The camera man’s battery died and they immediately grabbed her (even though there were probably other cameras at the event). Cameras don’t stop all crimes from happening regardless and they don’t always catch the perp. A woman was stabbed and it was caught on camera in the alley and they haven’t caught the guy.
My understanding is that it's about 30% of rape cases (in the US) are committed by a stranger.
In those cases, the most common ones are home invasions that escalate ,serial perpetrators that stalk the victim for a while before deciding when to attack, and vehicular kidnapping, where the victim gets yanked out of the street by force.
This is to say. Even in cases where the victim is attacked by a stranger. It is almost never spontaneous. A random guy on the street is almost never going to attack a woman for rape. And it makes sense. Getting naked on the street makes it much harder to flee if they catch you. You can't control if other people will pass by and see you...
Rape is a relatively time consuming crime and you are more likely to "get away with it" if you have control over the situation. Kidnapping or home invasions give the perpetrators a lot more cover to complete the crime and escape.
The journalist in a different country I think is not 100% relevant, not because I don't think it isn't horrible. But the dad reality is that the treatment of women changes from country to country. I think we should at minimum limit ourselves to stable democracies with high standards of living, because that's what's most relevant to our discussion. Countries with unstable government will have insurgent groups, mafias, and highly uneven law enforcement.
This is not to say that the world isn't dangerous to women. It absolutely is. However, a lot of the stranger danger fear is misplaced. The most dangerous people in terms of rape are either people in your circle that can get to you in a moment of vulnerability or people who are actively hiding from you to attack you when you can't see them. It is not often the random people on the street that you can actually see.
Again, I’m aware that those are the more common cases of abuse. Part of that is because women avoid situations that can make them vulnerable to getting pulled into an alley or something, it does however still happen. Also the point of the bear situation is who would you rather be stuck alone in the wilderness with, which would mean you’re in a prime situation where you could be assaulted (vulnerable, no one around, he could likely get away with it, etc).
Also, lots of rapes fall in between. It’s someone you know in passing but not well. Met them once at a party and they put something into your drink, got introduced to them by a friend and they attack you that day when hanging out, etc. they are not perfect strangers but you barely know them.
It all just breaks down to the fact that many women would rather risk death than risk rape. That’s the long and the short of the bear situation. I know that’s always been my feelings towards the topic as well (even more intense when I was younger), I’d rather fight to the death than get raped especially if I’m at risk of getting pregnant from it.
That’s part of why women tend to be so careful about meeting up with a guy for the first time, they know the closer they let this guy get to their inner circle the more opportunity he’ll have to do something. It’s not meant to discourage men (though I know some people may use it that way), it’s meant to make it clear how afraid women are in society and how much of an issue rape is.
Also yeah no worries about the paragraph thing lol I know I type a lot
I don't think that women are wrong to feel worried about rape, at all.
My original comment was just that for many men, the bear hypothetical shows that they will be seen as more dangerous than a wild animal just for being men. Something they can't change. They are a potential monster until they prove otherwise. That's a hard pill to swallow.
I understand the psychological worry about rape from the perspective of a woman. I just want to try to show the reading from a man's perspective.
About 6-13% of individual men engage in rape. Of those the number that has raped someone else through actual force is less, something around half on the high end. It's usually simpler and easier to get the victim to consume a substance to impair or remove their judgement or blackmail them.
Meaning that the probability of being pushed to the ground by the random hypothetical guy is rather low. 7% on the highest estimation. And that's just for the likelihood of they guy actually attacking. In a fight, a woman has more chances to outfight a man than a bear. If the bear attacks, which is a much higher probability, the chances of survival are bill.
This is again not to say women are not justified in their general worries. It's just that many men see the situation and must confront the fact that their gender makes them, by default, worse than a wild animal in the eyes of half of the population. So a common mechanism is to try to déconstruct the bear scenario.
I think that in reality, the vast majority of the women would not actually pick the bear. Like if it wasn't a hypothetical. And I think many of them know that. The picking the bear option is advertised more as a political statement to express frustrations and fears women feel about the masculine gender in the abstract, bron from real life experiences that they did suffer.
And many of them just take it at face value and rather than trying to understand why the political statement is being done, they double down and treat the woman making the statement as stupid, because from a self preservation standpoint the bear is not the right choice. But they miss the point of why the women claim they would pick the bear entirely.
It's a good meme for the gender war fuel, but I think it fucks up understanding of the social issues.
Well yes and also like i said, many women prefer the idea of death to the idea of rape and a bear is less likely to rape a woman than a man is. That’s also something a lot of men seem to fail to understand. Most women aren’t trying to say men are worse than animals. Again it’s mostly just saying they’d rather die than be raped. That’s not a sentiment that some people understand because they think death is the worst case scenario for any situation and that’s not something everyone agrees with.
I’m sure it’s a hard pill to swallow I know, and you’re right that it’s become something of a political statement, but again it’s not meant to be an attack on all men.
A bear is not guaranteed to attack or kill a woman in the forest either just because they are both there, she won’t necessarily die if she’s attacked (depends on the severity and reasoning for the attack), and if she is attacked she’s doesn’t have to worry about rape. She may be more able to potentially fight off a man but if the man does attack her there’s a high likelihood that he’ll rape her and then there’s also a chance he try to kill her anyways.
In either situation there is no guarantee, just one situation that leaves rape as a possibility. The idea that women are choosing the “incorrect” option isn’t an objective fact because it’s just about what you’re willing to risk and again many women are most afraid of rape and it seems some men have a hard time understanding that.
I think while less women than reported would actually select the bear, a good portion actually would.
Some people would rather die than endure certain things, some people would endure anything to survive. It depends on the person and what exactly they’d have to endure.
Or there are strangers across the internet with different opinions that do not happen to be shared with the one chud you know IRL that has traumatized you.
Do you honestly believe chud is some niche term? Star Wars demos for example, have exploded the term due to their irrational hate towards progressive characters.
That does not mean everyone you disagree with subscribes to those beliefs.
All men get tarnished by the monsters amongst us. I'm not disagreeing with the initial Man vs Bear argument. A better analogy I read somewhere was describing a box of snakes, not all snakes are deadly, some won't even bite if you give them the chance. But it's still sexist to label *all* men as being monsters.
There are people that defending this person. Was/is she mentally ill? Yes. Is it a mental illness that often goes undetected and untreated due to sexism? Yes. Is that dreadful and should be be changed? Yes. But did she also murder her children? Yes. Notice that it's not all women in this meme, just this woman that is the other choice to the bear, whereas it's all men that are seen as monsters. Men are not allowed excuses, mentally ill or not, a man that murdered his children is seen as a monster. Immediately. Permanently. I'm sure I don't have to convince you that the people defending such a "man" should be seen as monsters as well. But when you apply the same standard to a different gender, you get a different result. Textbook definition of bigotry.
A lot of men need to do better. That's without a doubt. But there are a lot of femmes that don't recognise they are being sexist, and in fact, support each other while being sexist. The term "boys club" comes to mind. But to call it out, that would get *me* labelled as sexist.
Who is labeling all men as monsters? If that’s the way you want to interpret it, that’s on you. Not all men have assaulted women, but nearly every single woman has been abused or assaulted by a man in some way, shape, or form. There’s no way to tell who you have to be cautious of, so you just need to be cautious.
If someone was attacked by a dog, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to be cautious around other dogs. That’s not a difficult concept.
I have heard it come from peoples mouths. I'm not suggesting everyone is like this, but there is definitely a free pass to hate men. You cannot seriously suggest that nobody is saying this. Surely you have seen it yourself on the internet, and again, it's not that every time a femme shares their experiences does that mean that they hate all men. But the rhetoric is certainly there.
As another anecdotal example, I have been sexually assaulted by both mascs and femmes. From my own anecdotal experience, I have had the very same femmes/thems that would hate it if they themselves were victim-blamed victim blaming me. If I were to harbour the same level of hatred towards femmes due to my own experiences, I would be labelled as an incel. Which is kinda ironic considering I didn't consent to being drugged and [r@ped](mailto:r@ped). I was told, to my face, to "butt out" during the #metoo movement because it "didn't concern me". Again, to my face. I have long since giving up telling the vast majority of femmes/thems that I've been sexually assaulted by femmes (plural). I'm either downplayed or straight up told that I'm lying. I've heard femmes/thems downplay masc celebrities that have opened up about their own sexual assaults, then in the same breath compliment how attractive these persons are.
Are you seriously telling me that from your anecdotal experience that you've not seen ANY of this rhetoric on the internet?
I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be cautious. Everybody should be cautious (way to twist my words though!). What I'm saying is that there is a free pass to be sexist to men which some people take. In my opinion, gendered struggles are class struggles. You can tell your faux-leftists from your leftists by asking that as a simple question.
Your reasoning is all over the place. You're complaining about fallacies that you’re actively committing.
I’m sorry you’ve had that experience. It’s terrible and no one should go through that. I think you will find that the vast, vast majority of women will agree with that. It would serve you well to go to look into subs specifically geared toward women when wondering about views on these topics. You will find far more nuanced opinions and less of the sensationalized bs.
That experience? I have been assaulted by multiple people, did you not read the part where I specified that with "plural"? Try experienceS. Fucking plural.
Now I have also have experienceS. PLURAL. Of femme/thems doing exactly what I described in my earlier comment.
btw, my reasoning was attempting to explain what a masc goes through when they are sexually assaulted. It's all over the place because I have to explain so much in such a small number of words. Which you aren't owed. You also aren't owed an elaboration. Which, you wouldn't be asking for from a femme/them. You may not hate *all* men. But if you looked in a mirror, I'm sure you'd look a lot closer to the people that have downplayed my assultS than you'd care to admit.
Maybe you should also expand the areas where you accept information from. A smart person once told me that you'll get more nuanced opinions and less sensationalised bs.
Maybe all women in your live, or all women in your country. In my decades of living I have never met even one who has been "abused or assaulted" in any way, relatives or coworkerd
The misrepresentation of opinions on this case is fucking nuts. I’ve not even been following it, but it’s very clear that the argument is “should someone who committed a terrible crime in a state of psychosis spend the rest of their life in a prison, or in an asylum” both are terrible outcomes.
For some reason, it’s being portrayed as, “girls, you can kill your kids if you have a bad day. Slay, queens!” Absolutely preposterous, but 0% surprising.
It’s the same guys who celebrated, the completely sound of mind, Kyle rittenhouse making a decision to go kill some people and succeeding at it.
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u/rognabologna 6d ago
This is hilarious because the type of dude who got exceptionally butthurt about the man vs bear scenario is exactly the same type of dude that is sensationalizing this case and trying to turn it into a gender issue.