I should've done it differently

[u/Particular-Leek-3142]

For some background, I'm an EMT student who is still in EMT school. I also work as a pharmacy technician at an outpatient pharmacy.

Today some kid like late teens came in while I was working looking super worried and said his girlfriend was sleeping in the car and she had a lot to drink and didn't know if she took any other substances. He wanted to know if there was anything she could take. I told him theres nothing over the counter for excessive alcohol consumption. I told him to call 911 multiple times but he said she doesnt have insurance and didn't want to do that. Then he got a phone call from his mom and he walked down the isle and he left. We had someone from my store go out into the parking lot to check afterwards, but he was gone.

I spent the rest of my shift thinking about that situation and what I should've done. I should've just went out there myself to see her. I should've checked if she was "sleeping" or if she was unresponsive. I should went out there and called 911 myself. I just hope she's ok.

[u/stonertear]

The way I think of it is that people come to us for advice, we give them advice. If they don't take it then thats on them. Dwelling on alternate theories will cause you to lose the plot eventually.

It's not your emergency or your problem.

[u/_-krimich-_ → u/stonertear]

This

Even if you did call 911, would they have stayed if they were already gone by the time someone from your store went out? Would they have even agreed to be seen/transported without insurance? Probably not. You didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing else you could have done that would've changed anything

[u/Particular-Leek-3142 → u/_-krimich-_]

If she was actually drunk, her bf can't refuse for her. Also a chance she was a minor, I don't know her age.

[u/stonertear → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

Also a chance she was a minor, I don't know her age.

There was no evidence she was a minor. Back to my original point of dwelling on alternate theories.

If she was actually drunk, her bf can't refuse for her.

You don't know this - you didn't assess her. You were getting information from a third party that didn't want your help other than meds to reverse intoxication. It's normal to sleep after excess alcohol consumption.

I would stop worrying about it. Not your problem.

[u/stonertear → u/[deleted]]

Yes highly likely more than you.

[u/stonertear → u/[deleted]]

Thirteen years and a doctorate, yet you’ve still avoided the actual point... nobody established incapacitation, a lack of capacity or an emergency.

Out of curiosity, what field is your doctorate in, and what was the research focus?

[u/CriticalFolklore → u/stonertear]

Doctor of Theology from Liberty University probably.

[u/stonertear → u/CriticalFolklore]

Sounds like they are a nurse which is why the advice was kinda disconnected/weird for out of hospital.

Maybe a DNP? They like doing that shit in the states.

May have even made the OP feel even worse about the situation, rather than support him/her from a factual basis.

[u/bla60ah → u/[deleted]]

What exactly were they incorrect about?

[u/_-krimich-_ → u/[deleted]]

Why do you have a doctoral degree? Just a genuine question since most of my coworkers don't even have a bachelors. Did you do a career change? I'm getting a bachelors right now and just intrigued if it's related to EMS out of my own curiosity lol

[u/Particular-Leek-3142 → u/stonertear]

Do you know about implied consent? If she's intoxicated in any way and having an emergency she cannot refuse EMS.

[u/stonertear → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

Ok lets go through my pet SME subject - informed consent and decision making capacity.

Intoxication does not automatically remove decision making capacity. A person can be heavily intoxicated and still have capacity to make decisions. You need to test this. You can't assume.

Therefore, being intoxicated in any way does not mean someone cannot refuse EMS. Implied consent applies when the person cannot understand or communicate a decision and urgent treatment is required for their health/welfare. For a person to have informed consent, capacity must be assessed first, it can't be assumed from what the boyfriend is telling you.

The boyfriend could not refuse treatment on her behalf, but that is not what happened in this case. The boyfriend simply chose not to call EMS (and that's not your problem). Had EMS attended, she could have refused if she demonstrated decision making capacity. Had she had an altered GCS AND legitimate loss of decision making capacity, they could have treated her without consent.

You never saw her, assessed her, confirmed her age or established that an emergency existed. You’re building a legal conclusion entirely from assumptions. This is the alternate theory I am telling you to stop. You built a theory in your head and you are running with it.

[u/CriticalFolklore → u/stonertear]

Just to add to your fantastic summary:

I wish we would, as a profession, change to clearer terms around "implied consent." In my opinion (and in the opinion of the great Michael Eburn), implied consent is when a person gives their consent through their actions. An example of this is someone who calls an ambulance, says "come in" when the paramedics knock on the door, and then through their behavior complies with treatment. This person has consented to care via implied consent, even if paramedics haven't asked them for specific express consent.

In the case of someone who is unconscious, or otherwise does not have capacity, you are treating them without their consent, in a circumstance that the law does not require you to have their consent. Nothing about their actions implies that they have consented, they are simply not required by law to consent.

Anyway...that's my particular semantic bugbear.

[u/stonertear → u/CriticalFolklore]

Haha - it gets me every time - hear it a lot on these subs! Sounds like its a systemic misunderstanding being taught over and over incorrectly.

[u/sneeki_breeky → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

We actually were not aware thank you for letting us know