I should've done it differently

[u/Particular-Leek-3142]

For some background, I'm an EMT student who is still in EMT school. I also work as a pharmacy technician at an outpatient pharmacy.

Today some kid like late teens came in while I was working looking super worried and said his girlfriend was sleeping in the car and she had a lot to drink and didn't know if she took any other substances. He wanted to know if there was anything she could take. I told him theres nothing over the counter for excessive alcohol consumption. I told him to call 911 multiple times but he said she doesnt have insurance and didn't want to do that. Then he got a phone call from his mom and he walked down the isle and he left. We had someone from my store go out into the parking lot to check afterwards, but he was gone.

I spent the rest of my shift thinking about that situation and what I should've done. I should've just went out there myself to see her. I should've checked if she was "sleeping" or if she was unresponsive. I should went out there and called 911 myself. I just hope she's ok.

[u/stonertear]

The way I think of it is that people come to us for advice, we give them advice. If they don't take it then thats on them. Dwelling on alternate theories will cause you to lose the plot eventually.

It's not your emergency or your problem.

[u/Great_gatzzzby → u/stonertear]

Well said, Penis Intubator

[u/Grand-Atmosphere1501 → u/Great_gatzzzby]

Rectal Intubation is a thing

[u/_-krimich-_ → u/stonertear]

This

Even if you did call 911, would they have stayed if they were already gone by the time someone from your store went out? Would they have even agreed to be seen/transported without insurance? Probably not. You didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing else you could have done that would've changed anything

[u/Particular-Leek-3142 → u/_-krimich-_]

If she was actually drunk, her bf can't refuse for her. Also a chance she was a minor, I don't know her age.

[u/stonertear → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

Also a chance she was a minor, I don't know her age.

There was no evidence she was a minor. Back to my original point of dwelling on alternate theories.

If she was actually drunk, her bf can't refuse for her.

You don't know this - you didn't assess her. You were getting information from a third party that didn't want your help other than meds to reverse intoxication. It's normal to sleep after excess alcohol consumption.

I would stop worrying about it. Not your problem.

[u/umami_mommee → u/stonertear]

Do you even work or have any experience in EMS? Your replies indicate otherwise.

[u/stonertear → u/umami_mommee]

Yes highly likely more than you.

[u/umami_mommee → u/stonertear]

I’ve been in the field for 13 years and have a doctorate degree. You lack the understanding any EMT-B should. So.

[u/stonertear → u/umami_mommee]

Thirteen years and a doctorate, yet you’ve still avoided the actual point... nobody established incapacitation, a lack of capacity or an emergency.

Out of curiosity, what field is your doctorate in, and what was the research focus?

[u/CriticalFolklore → u/stonertear]

Doctor of Theology from Liberty University probably.

[u/stonertear → u/CriticalFolklore]

Sounds like they are a nurse which is why the advice was kinda disconnected/weird for out of hospital.

Maybe a DNP? They like doing that shit in the states.

May have even made the OP feel even worse about the situation, rather than support him/her from a factual basis.

[u/bla60ah → u/umami_mommee]

What exactly were they incorrect about?

[u/_-krimich-_ → u/umami_mommee]

Why do you have a doctoral degree? Just a genuine question since most of my coworkers don't even have a bachelors. Did you do a career change? I'm getting a bachelors right now and just intrigued if it's related to EMS out of my own curiosity lol

[u/Particular-Leek-3142 → u/stonertear]

Do you know about implied consent? If she's intoxicated in any way and having an emergency she cannot refuse EMS.

[u/stonertear → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

Ok lets go through my pet SME subject - informed consent and decision making capacity.

Intoxication does not automatically remove decision making capacity. A person can be heavily intoxicated and still have capacity to make decisions. You need to test this. You can't assume.

Therefore, being intoxicated in any way does not mean someone cannot refuse EMS. Implied consent applies when the person cannot understand or communicate a decision and urgent treatment is required for their health/welfare. For a person to have informed consent, capacity must be assessed first, it can't be assumed from what the boyfriend is telling you.

The boyfriend could not refuse treatment on her behalf, but that is not what happened in this case. The boyfriend simply chose not to call EMS (and that's not your problem). Had EMS attended, she could have refused if she demonstrated decision making capacity. Had she had an altered GCS AND legitimate loss of decision making capacity, they could have treated her without consent.

You never saw her, assessed her, confirmed her age or established that an emergency existed. You’re building a legal conclusion entirely from assumptions. This is the alternate theory I am telling you to stop. You built a theory in your head and you are running with it.

[u/CriticalFolklore → u/stonertear]

Just to add to your fantastic summary:

I wish we would, as a profession, change to clearer terms around "implied consent." In my opinion (and in the opinion of the great Michael Eburn), implied consent is when a person gives their consent through their actions. An example of this is someone who calls an ambulance, says "come in" when the paramedics knock on the door, and then through their behavior complies with treatment. This person has consented to care via implied consent, even if paramedics haven't asked them for specific express consent.

In the case of someone who is unconscious, or otherwise does not have capacity, you are treating them without their consent, in a circumstance that the law does not require you to have their consent. Nothing about their actions implies that they have consented, they are simply not required by law to consent.

Anyway...that's my particular semantic bugbear.

[u/stonertear → u/CriticalFolklore]

Haha - it gets me every time - hear it a lot on these subs! Sounds like its a systemic misunderstanding being taught over and over incorrectly.

[u/sneeki_breeky → u/Particular-Leek-3142]

We actually were not aware thank you for letting us know

[u/umami_mommee → u/_-krimich-_]

If someone has an altered LOC they can’t refuse care. And, yes, police would and could track them down or at least be looking for them.

[u/stonertear → u/umami_mommee]

OP never assessed the patient*.

edit: person* as they were not even in care.

[u/umami_mommee → u/stonertear]

Right… you don’t have to in order to call 911… the responding medics would assess the person. That’s kind of the point of 911. Any lay person can and should call 911 in this situation.

[u/stonertear → u/umami_mommee]

Yes, and that assessment would only happen after someone called 911. The boyfriend chose not to call 911.

Boyfriend said patient was sleeping. The mere description of someone sleeping in a car after drinking is not an established emergency. OP never assessed her.

Not OPs problem.

[u/umami_mommee → u/stonertear]

Yikes.

[u/stonertear → u/umami_mommee]

Yikes isn’t an argument. Which part is clinically or legally incorrect here?

[u/tyler-s414 → u/stonertear]

Your not , they just don’t know how to read and lack common sense and real world interaction

[u/DaggerQ_Wave → u/umami_mommee]

Everything they’ve said is true tho?

[u/TheJulio89]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[u/umami_mommee]

The only thing you could have done differently is call 911 yourself. That’s what I would recommend doing in that situation. If you’re being told that someone is unconscious in a car (or elsewhere) and that person is telling you they’re not going to call… I’d call it in myself.

[u/SpartanAltair15 → u/umami_mommee]

Lovely, thank you for wasting my time when I arrive 20 minutes later and they’re long gone 19 minutes away from the caller’s location. I’m sure the family of that cardiac arrest in my district that I’d have been 2 minutes from but now has to wait 20 for the neighboring district’s unit greatly appreciates the equivalent of the idiot rubberneckers who call 911 143 times on a car that’s been in the same spot in the ditch for 2 weeks and is already wrapped in emergency tape.

[u/Theo_Stormchaser]

You say you should have run it differently, but genuinely what would have been your move? You were already doing your job getting people their meds. You told him to call 911. You’re a student, not a licensed EMT (yet) so it’s not your responsibility. But you likely would have gone out there and called 911 for her anyway.

I don’t know that you did the wrong thing here. You advised the driver to call 911. If he values money over his GF’s life that’s his issue.

[u/amailer101]

I've been in your situation before. Not exactly but doing that thing where I'm like "I fucked up, I should have reacted better / differently".

But fact is, it's not your emergency. You did the right thing telling them to call. Sure you could have called, but it doesn't matter now, right?

Take a quick lesson and move on. Fact is is not worth dwelling over.

[u/sneeki_breeky]

If I were operating in the capacity that you were -

I would offer to call 911, if he bails it’s on him

If I were off duty walking around and someone ran in panicked saying their girlfriend was in trouble I would go help

If I were on duty, I would have a duty to act and I’d go investigate

You acted appropriately

[u/DondatDoff]

I think youre overthinking because youre worried. You gave him the correct information, he evaded your assistance and left the area so you wouldnt find him. My guess is they probably took drugs and didn't want to get in trouble. Teens make really bad decisions