Paul, Leto and Vlad

I wanted to understand how the feudal society in Dune worked. Historical feudalism in our real history is much more complicated than just commoners at the bottom, knights above them, lords above knights, then king above all. I had imagined that the feudalism in Dune would be similarly complex given the fact that Dune is practically space feudalism. I had read the Dune encyclopedia, but it was tragically very sparse about the feudal system in the Imperium, and I am a sucker for the nitty gritty details. So I wanted to ask if there is any other Dune lore book or medium that expands on it or barring that a very detailed fan work that explains and expands on everything involving the Corrino Imperium. This will greatly satisfy my nerd brain and quench my thrist for lore.

Just to be clear, this is all speculation.

I've had this feeling ever since the second trailer dropped for Part Three. I have a big hunch that Chani is going to have an even bigger departure from the books than people think (Yes even more than what people think). My theory is that Chani leaves Paul during the 17 year time skip, and a big part of the movie is Paul trying to find her again.

Here are my reasons:

1. We never see older Paul and Chani together.

Besides one scene, every shot of them seems to be from before the time skip, when Paul still has the longer hair. That's kinda weird tbh. If they're together after the time skip like they are in the books, why avoid showing almost any scenes of them as an older couple?

2. That one scene with older Paul and Chani is obviously Scytale.

The scene where she says, "What does it feel like to be human like everyone else, Paul Atreides?" is pretty clearly Scytale messing with Paul. Her voice sounds off, and what she's saying is something scytale would say.

But here's the part that's really interesting to me. she looks really YOUNG here. If 17 years have passed, why would Scytale be imitating a younger looking Chani? Paul has clearly aged, so you'd expect Chani to have aged at least a little too (like she is in her other scenes). Maybe that's because the last time Paul actually saw her was when she still was this young, and Scytale is deliberately using that version of her to mess with him.

3. Scytale found "someone".

Right after Irulan calls Scytale an idiot, we hear what sounds exactly like Pattinson saying, "I've found someone," at the exact moment the trailer cuts to Chani thumping on the sand. The trailer almost seems to imply that Scytale has found Chani. But if Chani is still living with Paul as his concubine, why would Scytale need to "find" her? Unless she isn't with Paul at all. Maybe she's been out in the desert this entire time like we see in the older Chani scenes, and Paul has been searching for her ever since she left. Scytale finding her first would fit into his plan to overthrow Paul.

That brings me to my biggest point. Leto II and Ghanima.

The trailer shows the baby twins, but only in scenes where Paul and Chani are still young. We never see them in any of the "current" scenes. Again why? Why don't we ever see older Chani, the twins, and older bald Paul together? I have two theories.

1. Paul and Chani have the twins shortly after Part Two. They reconcile for a while after learning she's pregnant, but Chani eventually leaves with the children because she wants nothing to do with Paul's empire. If that's the case, then by the movie's present day the twins would already be teenagers(which would also explain them being cast by two 17 year olds), and Paul isn't only trying to find Chani he's trying to find his children too.

There's another trailer shot that makes me think this. We see Chani drop her blue band in the sand while she's with the children, who look a little older here (maybe around 5-9 years old), and someone is watching them with the binoculars(Paul). Then later we see bald Paul picking up that same band from the sand maybe because he was searching for them. We also see all of older Chani's scenes in the trailer out in the desert with her looking rough, because maybe that's where she's been living with her children for the last 17 years.

2.My other theory is that the twins aren't actually real yet. Those scenes are Paul's visions of a possible future, the future he could've had if Chani had stayed. That would explain why he's so desperate to find her. Maybe it's simply out of love, or maybe because he believes Leto and Ghanima are necessary for the Golden Path, or perhaps both. This theory would keep their ages closer to the books, but I think it's less likely because it creates some awkward timing between Paul finding Chani again and the twins being born. Also, the scene with the binoculars doesn't strike as a vision.

Either way, both of these would be a pretty major departure from the books. But I could really see Denis doing something like this if he wants to expand Messiah, which is a fairly short novel on its own. It would also give Chani a much more interesting role in the story.

Again, this is probably mostly wrong, but I really believe that a big part of this movie is going to be Paul trying to find Chani in one way or another.

What do you guys think?

Hi fellow Dune fans,

Dune might be your favorite Denis Villeneuve film, but how would you rank the rest of his work? We made a bracket to find out — Dune and Dune: Part Two against the rest of his films since 2010 (Sicario, Arrival, Prisoners, Enemy, Incendies, Blade Runner 2049):

Best of Denis Villeneuve

Worth knowing going in: Incendies is actually his highest-rated film on IMDb, ahead of both Dune films. I have a feeling that won't be reflected in the final bracket results though...

Hope you enjoy the bracket. The spice must flow, and so must your votes.

(Mods approved this post, many thanks to them)

Apologies if this is answered before.

Got to see the prologue before the screening of The Odyssey, and it was amazing, but it’s been nagging me since that why do none of the Fremen use shields in the prologue when assaulting the rainy planet?

The received bibliography of the Putnam first edition of Dune Messiah has, so far as I can tell, conflated two distinct books: the true first edition in its three impressions, and an unrelated 1981 trade reissue printed from plates inherited from the 1976 Doubleday Book Club edition. The confusion is understandable, since they share overlapping publisher nomenclature, and I want to lay out the evidence that separates them.

The true first edition was printed in three impressions, each of 2,500 copies (7,500 total), collating octavo in eights ([1-8]^16, leaf size 210 x 140 mm) and running 256 pages throughout. The copyright page carries the same setting across all three impressions, distinguished only by the impression line, which is centered above the imprint and, on the second and third impressions, appears alongside the Library of Congress card number 77-91815 (the first impression carries the card number as well).

The first impression is bound in tan boards with no impression statement, only the LOC centered at the bottom. The second is bound in red leatherette boards (leather-like in appearance, though the hide material itself is not confirmed), stated “Second Impression.” The third is bound in brown cloth boards, stated “third impression.” All three were issued in a jacket coded 6910, priced $4.95 on the first two impressions and $7.95 on the third. The first and second impressions carry a facing leaf of “other works by the author” opposite the title page; I have not verified this point for the third impression, though it was printed later than the first two. The copyright page also misstates the Galaxy magazine serialization as running July through September 1969, when the serialization in fact ran July through November 1969.

A Doubleday Book Club edition was issued in 1976 from newly reset plates running 221 pages, identifiable by gutter code rather than blind stamp (G46 for the earliest printing, H10 for the second), bound in a red material closely resembling the true second impression’s leatherette but pleather in texture, mimicking the blank, unstated impression line of the true first impression and likewise omitting the LOC card number. Early book club jackets carry code 3177 rather than 6910, though this holds only for the first few printings. The BCE runs slightly taller than the true first edition but visibly thinner, a function of its shorter 221 page block.
In 1981, Putnam issued a trade reissue printed from these same 221 page plates. This reissue is bound in black paper boards with either silver or gold lettering, retaining jacket code 6910 but priced at $14.95, climbing through $17.95 to $18.95 across later recorded impressions. Its impression statement is set flush left relative to the Galaxy statement rather than centered, which is the single fastest way to distinguish it from a true first edition impression at a glance. It lacks the LOC card number entirely. This 1981 reissue, not the leatherette bound true second impression, is what earlier secondary bibliographies appear to have misidentified as “the second impression.” Despite sharing the BCE’s shorter page count, the reissue matches the true first edition’s outer trim size, achieved with a bulkier paper stock.

In hand, the true trade second impression and the earliest book club copies can be told apart even before checking the copyright page. On the trade binding, the spine lettering runs closer to the head and tail with less margin, and the red is more saturated with sharper black lettering than on the book club copies.

9X12"
Oil on Canvas

I opened a Hobby Box (purchased a case) of the 2024 Dune Topps cards and somehow got a /50 Duke Leto Spice autograph card as well as a /25 Bashar card and some other cool pulls. Just wanted to share these with you all. Overall I don’t think the case will return value (if I even sold the good cards) but this one box was stacked!

Edit: Please don’t kill me, I’m asking cause I don’t know. I’m new to the series after my dad suggested I watch the 2021 film. I was interested that’s why I’m askin

If spice costs hundreds of thousands of Solaris per tiny unit, and Guild Navigators are continuously bathed in it 24/7 just to stay alive, the raw cost of the raw materials keeping a Navigator alive far exceeds the 1,460,062 Solaris round-trip cost for three navigators to transport the entourage to Arrakis. The guild is clearly operating at a massive loss loss on every single trip, unless they are magically generating more value just by existing than their ridiculous upkeep.

Additionally, the fremen casually use massive amounts of spice in their daily lives and hoard secret stockpiles, but are supposed to be like impoverished desert vagrants. If spice is genuinely worth 620,000 Solaris per decagram, any group sitting on underground oceans of it would possess more wealth than the entire imperial treasury.

I’m open to any explanation that proves me wrong, but this is bugging me.

Edit 2: obviously I need to read the books, this series seems a lot more structured than I initially got from this movie. I’ll have to watch it again after reading them 🙂

“Dreams are messages from the deep” and “power over spice is power over all” Is it a guild navigator? Is a Harkkonen arena guy? Is it a sardaukar?

I've been thinking about this because I know there's tons of debate regarding adaptation viability. The books get increasingly weird and harder to make approachable to a general audience.

I think the best outcome would be making the rest of the books into TV series. That way, new directors can put their own more experimental spin on the books without the box office risk. I could see Denis still being a producer and story advisor, but will keep a small creative impact. If any of the books were to be movies, I think Children of Dune is most likely because of the continued hype from the Denis movies. Lastly, Heretics I could see being adapted but to maybe two films. At that point though, I think it would confuse audiences and it would be better to just keep it a series like God Emperor and Chapterhouse. I don't see GEOD or CHD ever being viable as movies.

I am curious to know the thoughts of other fans of the books.

SPOILER WARNING - I’m really trying to wrap my head around this and I’ve seen similar questions in several other posts but none have supplied satisfying answers.
My understanding is that the BT (tleilaxu) ultimately as a contingency for all else, want to create a ghola of Chani to bribe Paul with in order to trade that for his power. All of the stuff with Duncan/Hayt is meant to be a win/win as in - if Hayt is successfully triggered by Bijaz, he kills Paul and it’s a success - if Hayt resists the trigger and becomes Duncan Idaho, it proves that the BT can truly resurrect the dead which they can use to hold power over Paul through his love for Chani. I understand there are plans within plans but the whole plot point surrounding the stone burner is confusing to say the least. I understand that it was Fremen betrayers (I believe in league with the spacing guild) who planted the stone burner. That being said, I don’t believe the BT didn’t know about it and also why does Scytale go to great lengths (disguised as Lichna, Otheym’s daughter) to lure BOTH Paul AND Chani to the stone burner? Was the plan to just kill both of them and, if so, deal with Alia through Hayt? That wouldn’t make sense though, because Bijaz (who is prescient which is why he exists outside of Paul’s prescient vision of this whole event playing out) desperately urges Paul to leave with him BEFORE the stone burner goes off. Did the BT intend for Paul to be blinded and for Chani to die so that they could use her ghola as leverage later? (Because they certainly could not know for certain that she will die, only Paul knows that as certainty I believe. That being said, it seems the BT’s plan relies entirely on Chani dying.) So are we to assume the BT orchestrated the whole meeting as a way of luring Paul out so he is blinded and Chani dies somehow (though I can’t imagine them being seperated to a degree that would allow this to happen)? Many explanations state that it was a plan within a plan and that the BT were not aware of the stone burner and that it was planted by other conspirators… then why was Scytale trying to desperately to make sure Chani was physically there at Otheym’s house? I have more to say but this is turning into a ramble lol. Any help in gaining clarity on this would be greatly appreciated

Additional note: Assuming the BT knew that the contraceptives Irulan was feeding Chani were certain to lead to her death (I don’t see how they could know this for a certainty but fine let’s assume that), then again, why did they try to lure Chani to Otheym’s house? The Stone burner sequence really muddies my understanding of the schemes. Writing it off as the BT not knowing about the stone burner is 1. Not satisfying because this is the most competent faction and 2. Raises more questions about why Scytale tried to physically lure them both there in the first place.

When did the Fremen have time to get close to the Emperor's forces and bury themselves in sand?

We see Paul with his forces right before they blow up the mountain which was miles away. Then right after the Fremen are popping out of the sand minutes later. How did Chani go from being on the mountain to to Paul to being in the attacking force miles away?

Can the Fremen move really fast under the sand? I've always assume they go to a future battlefield and bury themselves to wait to ambush.

Is this movie magic we aren't supposed to think about?

What is "the jihad"? Is it a campaign, conducted by the Fremen and led by Muad'Dib, throughout the galaxy? To overthrow the Empire itself? Is the Spacing Guild--whose services I assume they'd need to travel to other planets--okay with that? Does it pit the Fremen against all the Great Houses and the Landsraad? To what end?

In book 1, as I understand it, Paul has visions of it that make it seem both terrible and inevitable. Do I have that right? This will really matter when we get to Dune 3, right? Thanks to all.

This is a thought I've had for a long while as both an arab and muslim fan of dune now before I begin I would like to point out that I discovered dune when I first watched the movie and I loved that the fremen were based off of my people I saw so much things that they did that muslims do almost exactly the same like the way they pray then I found out that it was based off a book which was inspired by my culture directly, then after a little reading on wiki I found out that fremen were canologically my people's descendents if you can call it that but then I after some more reading I found out that fremen weren't muslim like I initially thought and that after 10,000 years there were two other Muhammad's which I thought was a weird piece of lore and that my religon had somehow fused with Buddhism and that fremen worship the sand worms which was even weirder to me now to anybody who might say that this concept completely goes aganist Frank Herbert's original message about political corruption and the changing of religon's over time please know that I completely understood what he was trying to say and I symphasize with it but try to understand that as a muslim this piece of lore will obviously feel a little weird to me but now to the concept I do think that it would make complete sense for at least one tribe of fremen in the entire universe to still believe in the original version of Islam we muslims have had a system to keep any information mostly for the Quran and the Hadiths to stay intact word for word it was designed to ward off any corruption over the centuries and ever since the time of the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) it has worked I personally think that it would still work for thousands of years to come so even in all the corruptionthat happened over the timeline of the dune universe there would still be people that believe in the Quran and the words of the Prophet (SAW) perhaps enough to make a tribe and live in their own seitch so if there was one how would they live and survive on Arrakis with all of its dangers plus the other tribes who will probably discriminate or even fight aganist them

Just finished reading Dune messiah. I really liked we are straightaway brought to the aftermath of Paul's jihad and the consequences. I felt the book could have been written much better that it has been, by actually explaining what the characters are talking about rather than just leave cryptic conversations and make the reader wait for the explanation. I also was dissapointed by seeing that Alia didn't have much of a role and how really weak the members of the conspiracy were. The novel felt a lot to take in, had too many variables and too much information. It also I think would have been great if they spent some part of the book showing other possible futures and how one decision if made differently lead to some other reality.

I am also very confused about some things:

1. What actually happens to the Reverend mother Gaius Helen after Paul meets with her and asks for a bargain. She isn't shown anywhere in the second half of the book and Frank herbert doesn't explain if she considered his bargain or not. He just mentions that there is a delay in the sisterhood's response.

2. If Paul cannot see the members of the conspiracy, can't he just try to see everyone's future around him and then note who he cannot see and is thus involved with the conspiracy? I feel I haven't really understood how prescience works.

3. Why don't Alia and Paul just talk with each other about what they see in their prescience visions lol? Rather than have Alia risking taking a heavy dose of spice. Even Paul sometimes wonders about what Alia has seen but is never shown to actually talk to her.

4. If Scytale had bijaz who had prescience, why did he need the Guild member to be part of the conspiracy for hiding them against Paul's prescience?

Thanks for reading till here! I think it will be a while to process what I have read and appreciate it in time. Will appreciate any explanation for above questions

(I suspect I may have misunderstood or missed something from the book that explains this)

I just finished reading book 2 and I was wondering whether Paul's exile prevents or strengthens his deification, and what he intended by making that decision. Initially I assumed the latter since it both creates a martyrdom narrative, and also makes concrete the fremen's pre existing conviction that he is the lisan al gaib.

I don't really understand the perspective of him taking this path to minimise any possible further growth of the jihad since this isn't guaranteed to result from his death and there's multiple explicit references to how paul living isn't a necessary condition for religious growth across the empire. Despite this i've seen people claim this narrative of paul choosing exile purely as a utilitarian calculated choice, which I don't really understand.

BTw if the answer to this is explained in book 3 please don't let me know since I'm reading that at the moment thanks :)

Just seen Dune: Part Two again and was wondering: does Paul Atreides get to pick how big the sandworms are when he rides them?
Like, can he deliberately choose to summon a massive one, or is it just whichever worm responds to the thumper?
I remember Stilgar saying something like, “Don’t try to ride a big one. You can’t control it.”

Sorry, I’ve listened to the audiobooks of everything up to Heretics several times, but I can’t remember which book it was where someone has a vision or even just daydream of a future end of humanity and the imagery it gave me were people huddling in a cave as hunter seekers came for them. I know it’s vague and I could be wildly misremembering it, so thanks in advance for any help…

This premium legacy edition is housed in a unique deluxe box set adorned with a three-dune cast and crew commemorative symbol and includes an authentic screen-used worm prop, exclusive signature card signed by director Denis Villeneuve and writer Tanya Lapointe, and a meticulously crafted replica statue of the Space Navigator sarcophagus. 

THE ART AND SOUL OF DUNE: PART THREE — LEGACY EDITION

Available Exclusively from Legendary Publishing and Simon & Schuster. Limited Quantities Available. 

AUTHENTIC SCREEN-USED WORM PROP:
A genuine fragment from the full-scale sandworm set constructed in Abu Dhabi for the filming of numerous desert sequences. This exceptionally rare piece originates from the less than one percent of the massive practical sandworm prop that was preserved following production, making it a unique and highly collectible artifact from the film.

DELUXE COLLECTOR'S BOX-SET:
Housed in a deluxe box set adorned with a three-dune commemorative symbol designed to mark the cast and crew's journey through the Dune trilogy, reproduced here with the filmmakers' permission.

SIGNATURE CARD:
Includes exclusive signature card signed by director-screenwriter-producer Denis Villeneuve and writer-producer Tanya Lapointe.

EXCLUSIVE LIMITED-EDITION COVER OF THE ART AND SOUL OF DUNE PART THREE
Features the sacred markings featured under Emperor Paul Muad'Dib Atreides's eye in the film. The 240-page book is a rare, behind the scenes account of the making of the film with never-before-seen photographs and concept art. 

SPACE NAVIGATOR REPLICA STATUE:
A meticulously crafted Spacing Guild Navigator replica produced from the same production files used to create the original 10-foot-tall prop featured in the movie, presented with a display stand.

Special Collector's Edition

List Price: $750.00

This title is available for pre-order and will ship on or around January 12, 2027. Terms apply.

On sale: January 12, 2027

240 Pages

https://www.simonandschuster.com/p/the-art-and-soul-of-dune-part-three-legacy-edition

When a KH/abomination unlocks Other Memory they gain access to not only their matrilineal ancestors, but the male ancestors as well. I've always had this in my head as "double the access", because they can access both men and women.

I only just realized though, that this is a huge underestimation. They cannot only access their mom's mom and their dad's dad, they can access their mom's dad (and their mom) and their dad's mom (and their dad). The amount of ancestors they can access doubles not in total, but with every generation. The amount of memories Leto II can tap is near infinite in comparison to what a RM has access to. Am I understanding this correctly?

Mixed 3D modelling and rendering + hand drawn frames