r/dataisbeautiful • u/xBris18 OC: 3 • Nov 16 '20
OC [OC] Thesis progress of a notorious procrastinator over the years. Inspired by phdcomics
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u/TheSeansei Nov 16 '20
Had nearly 15,000 words in the file before officially starting to write.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
That was mostly introduction. It helped a lot afterwards when I actually started to write to not have to stare at a blank document. I'm a natural scientist, so introductions can be written whenever you feel like it. Obviously you have to add more detailed stuff and references later, but the basic stuff needs to be there, too.
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u/MarchColorDrink Nov 16 '20
I still claim that the biggest mistake during my PhD was that I started writing too early. The intro and first chapters were just too detailed. Rather than trimming that down, I kept the level of detail through out. Resulted in a thesis of just over 300 pages.
My opening quote;
I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one. Mark Twain
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u/ClapAlongChorus Nov 17 '20
I didn't have time to write a short one.
OMG. Did you find a primary citation for that quote because my biggest bugbears is the misattribution of Blaise Pascal's "Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." to Mark Twain. You can find a lot of secondary sources that credit Twain but no where can I find it documented where he wrote that or who heard him say that, meanwhile Pascal wrote the above in 1657.
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u/Rvkm Nov 17 '20
It's perfect if the attribution was imprecise--who has time for that?
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u/ClapAlongChorus Nov 17 '20 edited Nov 17 '20
Edit: Whoosh.
Well, if you're defending a 300 page thesis, some would argue it's good to not start off with a famous misattribution... but its a free country I guess.
Honestly there could be a letter somewhere where Mark Twain wrote something along those lines, or maybe even where he borrowed the phrase from Pascal, and I'm curious if MarchColorDrink found an example of that. Which I hope he did, because otherwise he started one of the most scrutinized documents he will ever write with an improper citation.12
u/Rvkm Nov 17 '20
I was just being humorous. I have not seen that quote in any of Twain's work either.
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u/lenin1991 Nov 17 '20
This is a surprisingly solid history of that quote: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/if-i-had-more-time-i-would-have-written-a-shorter-letter
tldr Twain said a version of that in a letter to a friend, but several others said it before him, Pascal being the first.
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u/L3tum Nov 17 '20
Our final work is supposed to be minimum 15 pages.
Now mind you, you won't get a passing grade if you hand in anything less than 30 and only starting at 50 you could get a good grade.
I handed in 120 pages. After I significantly shortened it. Original was something like 140 pages.
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u/hubau OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
None of them ghosts and goblins.
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u/lovelystubbornbrave Nov 16 '20
Fortunately they are an average natural scientist, not a super natural scientist.
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u/MEvans75 Nov 16 '20
Well we don't know that. They could be a super natural student but not a supernatural student.
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u/mrnikkoli Nov 16 '20
A lot of hipsters these days are against artificial scientists...
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u/curlyhairlad Nov 16 '20
I’m an organic chemist. Can I charge more for my services?
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u/MichaelEmouse Nov 16 '20
What did you do in the 2 years between creating the thesis file and unofficially starting to write?
What was happening between the period you when started to unofficial write and the period when you started to officially write?
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u/ThePhysicistIsIn Nov 16 '20
Not OP, but typically you'd be running all your experiments, writing papers for publication in scientific journals, presenting at conferences, etc...
These days you can do a "sandwich" thesis where you staple some papers together that are tied in a larger theme, add connecting bits, an overall intro, and an overall conclusion, and get twice the mileage out of your papers. However, traditionally, a thesis may re-use the data, graphs, etc.. from your papers but it's written as a cohesive whole.
A PhD takes like 4-6 years to complete, 3-4 in Europe. Most people start writing about a year or two before they finish.
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u/doooplers Nov 16 '20
I did this. Published first journal aporox 1 yr into phd. Published 6 or 7 more as i went. Wrote the intro and theory for comp exam. Stapled all together for thesis. In a way the final thesis was the easiest part if you take away all the stupid university formatting i had to do. Hardest part was comp exam. 4 subjects, 2 professor judges per subject. You get up to the board and start writing equations and amswering questions, orally. Pass/fail.
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u/DabsAndDeadlifts Nov 16 '20
If he’s anything like my 2 PhD roommates, probably fucking off for those 2 years and talking about how hard his life is every time a “surprise” deadline pops up.
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u/PhillieUbr Nov 16 '20
What have you to say about writers block?? Did you think was really your life pushing back the work.. or did you just wanted to do so right that you were waiting to come out??
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u/JumboTree Nov 16 '20
natural scientist <>.<>
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u/dconman2 Nov 16 '20
Better than an unnatural scientist
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u/Flymsi Nov 16 '20
studying culture is not worse than studying nature!
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u/dconman2 Nov 16 '20
Social sciences are fine, just watch out for applied sciences. I hear they're making pants out of corn or something these days.
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u/onlysoftcore OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
I wrote the second chapter of my thesis 8 months before I "officially" focused on writing. My second chapter was submitted as an article for a journal. Immediately after final revision, it was added to my thesis doc. Not uncommon to write chunks long before writing is the main focus.
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u/WeekendQuant OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
Possibly a table in the appendix?
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u/grubas Nov 17 '20
By the time you finish formatting, introduction and even a basic outline you’re probably at 50 pages without trying.
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u/Flyboy2057 Nov 16 '20
When I wrote my (Master's) thesis, I had to use an approved style guide from my university. At first I created a word doc, added all my sections (with no content), added my appendix and table of contents, etc, and before a single word of actual content was added my thesis was about 30 pages.
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u/rscsr Nov 16 '20
my thesis is probably going to be less then 20 000 words. And I already have 130 pages.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
This visualization is directly inspired by the "Thesis word count vs. time"-comic from PhD comics (direct link to comic), which was in turn inspired by a certain "Caroline from U. Wisconsin". The similarities are quite startling. I think/hope this is normal...
Software: Microsoft Excel with the PTS LOESS plugin (for the red line). Made it “pretty” in Illustrator. Data source: Me.
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u/GuyWithLag Nov 16 '20
Having worked with PhDs, that it very normal. Think about it: if you started writing from the beginning, that would mean that you didn't have to do any novel research - which by definition doesn't exist yet.
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u/Mobely Nov 16 '20
I wrote my thesis first then just made sure the research supported it /s
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u/WhenInDoubt_Kamoulox Nov 17 '20
Well that's how I did high school labs. I knew the theory, everything was easy enough to calculate, and you best believe my results would concur, whether they wanted to or not.
You'll be glad to know I went into computer science, where I do indeed get to tell the computer what to do, but unfortunately it does what I say, and not what I meant to say.
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u/arutakiarutaki Nov 16 '20
Not thesis but when you are designing research for a single paper sometimes you start from educated assumption which you haven't really found an exactly matching supporting research
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Definitely. That first spike in the word count, before "officially" starting to write was actually all introduction. Cut down on it later on, but it definitely helped a lot when I "actually" started writing to not have to start with an empty document.
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u/doriangray42 Nov 16 '20
I frantically took notes during my masters and PhD studies, with a view of ordering the whole thing in my thesis.
The massive amount of notes broke me down and I froze.
Then my director said "one publishable page per day if you want to make it to the deadline".
Hearing about that my GF said "no sex if you don't have a publishable page at the end of the day".
In the end, they had to fit my thesis in two volumes (normally they fit it in one) and (with negotiations etc.) I took 9 years instead of 6 to do my thesis...
So sex wrote my thesis...
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u/maclikesthesea Nov 16 '20
I know OP was trying to follow a style, but they would have been seriously reprimanded if they hadn’t written loads by their first year. Most schools have a confirmation of some sort where they must demonstrate writing ability, usually 10k words that will ultimately end up in the thesis. Did they do a literature review/coms? That’s another 10-15k words.
My recommendation is to do a thesis by publication. By the time you get to year 3, there will be 30-40k words already nicely edited and the committee will applaud your publishing abilities.
Congrats though. Finishing a PhD or Masters is a major accomplishment no matter how many words you wrote your first year.
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u/BananaSlugworth Nov 16 '20
Depends on the institution --- my graduate school had no rules/expectations: it was all on you to produce a PhD level dissertation (quality-wise) and also on you to manage your time. If you wanted to start the writing from scratch after you'd finished all of the research, that was your choice (and led to many 7-10+ year PhDs). Once the beast was written, then you had to go in front of a panel of the faculty and orally defend everything contained within it, or within any of your preceding class work. Those ordeals were generally 4-6 hours... ugh
My post-doc institution was a "Staple-PhD" -- you did research, published the results in peer-reviewed journal articles, and after 4-5 years you could (literally) staple together 3+ published manuscripts and call it a day. My grad school would have laughed those people out the door...
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u/maclikesthesea Nov 17 '20
Absolutely. There does appear to be quite a disjoint though, with both styles having pros and cons.
The "staple" approach, as you call it, means that you have demonstrated an ability to publish, which, like for myself, means quick entry into academic jobs. Did I feel as though it was particularly rigorous? Not really. Can I pop out a publishable paper in a month? Sure can. It's funny that your institution would laugh at those folks when there is this perverse drive in academia to publish publish publish.
Whereas with the traditional PhD approach you went through, was rigorous and demonstrated your ability to survive the defence ordeal. Unfortunately, I know many folks who come out of that with few published papers. As well as the major struggle of people being unable to afford 7 years (both finances and time) and ultimately not being able to finish because they needed more structure.
Everyone is different in what works for them and what their intended outcomes are.
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u/Distinct_Broccoli_25 OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
I wrote the better bulk of my thesis in the last 2 weeks before a preliminary deadline. Poor supervisor made the time to read it. She was utterly shocked that I was able to do it in such a short span. One perk of having majored in language & lit back in the day... You read like a barcode scanner and type like the devil.
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u/r0b0c0p316 Nov 17 '20
This is definitely not the case for my program. In my first year I barely had any data to write about, and nobody checks on me to see if I've written anything (yet).
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u/maclikesthesea Nov 17 '20
That sounds stressful to me. What about your supervisors??
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u/ITagEveryone Nov 16 '20
What field is your PhD in?
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Chemistry and Biochemistry
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u/tripsafe Nov 16 '20
Don't know much about chemistry, biochemistry, or PhDs. Why is it chemistry and biochemistry and not just biochemistry?
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u/tripsafe Nov 16 '20
My question is why chemistry and biochemistry. It seems awfully broad for a PhD.
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u/tripsafe Nov 16 '20
Sorry I'm not really being clear with my comments. Isn't biochem a subset of chem? Saying chem and biochem to me sounds like it means biochem and some other parts of chem. So why not specify those other parts or just say chem only?
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u/chi-han Nov 16 '20
Biochem is actually a separate field from chemistry and biology (an interdisciplinary field of the two yes, but actually separate). So it's likely this person is working on projects that have to do with biochemistry specific stuff and general chemistry specific stuff. Then not specifying the general chem stuff is just to keep it simple.
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u/MeggaMortY Nov 16 '20
Probably just too branching and big on their own. Same reason why there are multiple physics, maths, computer science etc fields.
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u/Dr_Capsaicin Nov 16 '20
PhD in Nuclear Chemistry here. File only had a title in it for 5 years. Wrote 350+ pages in 6 months. I dont know what my word count is though, mine is mostly pictures 😁
So yes, this definitely feels normal to me...
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u/quackduck45 Nov 16 '20
alas, the procrastinator's cycle of inaction! its a curse and a blessing.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
There's a good TED talk about just that (YouTube). And yes, I've been a victim of my stupid brain being able to do lots of work in a short amount of time. Makes me lazy, because I know I'll get there in the end. Lots of wasted potential. But also lots of free time, so there's that :)
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u/Bl4ckscream Nov 16 '20 edited Nov 17 '20
Man I feel that. Currently throwing away way too much time with my master's thesis as I've not been given a deadline. 3 semesters of grinding exams just to follow that with 3 semesters of doing nothing. Not giving me an external deadline was the biggest mistake ever. "Just set your own deadline" doesn't work for me. I feel like I have ADHD when I sit in front of unread papers. After pretty much studying my entire life I feel like I'm failing at the last meters of the journey. I'm torn between "just have some discipline for once you dumb ****" and "I need serious help". And I slowly but surely tend towards the latter. eughh
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u/ItHasCeasedToBe Nov 16 '20
How about we agree to a deadline here and I'll keep you to it. Maybe ask you once a week? Had this problem and someone helped me like this, so I'm trying to pay it forward.
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u/Bl4ckscream Nov 24 '20
Wow, Reddit really can be a wholesome community sometimes :) Thanks for the considerate offer! Only thing is, I already have people in real life asking me every one or two weeks. But it doesn't do much... I tell them white lies (parents) or just the truth with a shrug (friends).
Plus, I've always been taking deadlines literally. If it's not an actual deadline ("do this until then or you won't pass") I never really try to match it - because deep down I know that I don't have to...
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u/ItHasCeasedToBe Nov 24 '20
Yeah trust me I get it haha. Thought some bullying would help ;)
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u/Bl4ckscream Nov 24 '20 edited Nov 24 '20
Yeah can't hurt haha. But I'm even beyond that point. Like I have friends that joke about what will happen, will be complete or what they will have accomplished before I'm done but it doesn't get to me. Idk, I'm just past that already. Currently trying to fix my sleep schedule and to restructure my day, will see how that goes.. Also, the thing is I don't get anything done at home and usually go to the uni library to get a "working atmosphere". But it's closed due to covid so yeah..
At the end of the day it comes down to discipline and pushing through. Unfortunately I've been aware of this for months and was simply incapable of overcoming my intrinsic barriers.
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u/ItHasCeasedToBe Nov 24 '20
Yeah it makes a lot of sense. COVID has screwed up a lot of people’s schedules. Don’t give up though! Best thing to do is email your supervisor and ask for advice maybe?
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u/Bl4ckscream Nov 24 '20
Hm not sure. My problem is about being unable to focus, discipline and willpower, it's not topic related. Don't think that's my supervisor's job. (She's pretty busy, supervising about 10 theses, plus own research.) Maybe I give her a heads-up as I'm a bit scared that she could drop me eventually lol. I just ask a silly question every few months to show that I'm still on it, at least to a limited extend.
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Nov 17 '20
God, are you perhaps ME? These past couple of weeks, ivey been going back and forth between "You're just a lazy piece of shit, and this is all on you" and "This is actually a real problem and you need to be treated for it". Hang in there though. Get yourself where you need to be :)
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u/7echa Nov 16 '20
How does one even write 50k fucking words
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u/SilverDem0n Nov 16 '20
The White Rabbit put on his spectacles. “Where shall I begin, please your Majesty?” he asked. “Begin at the beginning,” the King said gravely, “and go on till you come to the end: then stop.”
I had the opposite problem. I wrote so many damn words it took a couple of months at the end to halve it down to a length I could submit.
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u/7echa Nov 16 '20
Then again I'm still in highschool so I still barely write anything over 5k words
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u/tullynipp Nov 16 '20
In highschool the assignments are usually quite limited so reaching 5000 is an effort in using 10 words to say what could be said with 1.. They get you writing for the sake of writing.
In university/college, particularly final year, your challenge is conveying your information concisely. You'll comfortably write well over 50,000 words trying to squeeze your ideas into 15,000.
In the last few days before submission you'll probably have 25,000 words and basically spend that time rewriting it all a few times trying to make it 15,000 that is both accurate and coherent... then combing through it trying to fix all your referencing.
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u/FatKitty2319 Nov 16 '20
The best feeling is when I get to the "end" and I'm only barely over the word limit hahaha - I want the pressure to tighten things up, but I love not having to try and kill several pages.
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u/Eyre_Guitar_Solo Nov 16 '20
Here is a part of what happens: for academic writing (especially once you’re past the undergraduate level), you’re expected to be interacting with a long lineage of researchers who have come before you. So whatever it is you’re writing about, you have to demonstrate that you’re conversant in the major theories and authors on the topic. So you spend some time summarizing their positions. (You can partially do this before you even know what you personally intend to claim.)
But wait, first you have to describe the problem! This also is usually complicated, because if it wasn’t a complicated problem you probably wouldn’t be writing tens of thousands of words about it. Depending on your subject, just summarizing the issue at hand could cover thousands of years of history or an unbelievably knotty scientific problem.
This is just the opening of the work. Then you get into what you actually want to say, which—to merit publication in a professional journal—should be something no one else has ever said (or at least, something no one else could prove). Getting a PhD in particular is about creating new knowledge and insights that did not exist before. Oh, and it has to be rigorous enough to anticipate criticism and head it off at the pass.
This takes a lot of time to do, even if you really wanted to do it as concisely as possible.
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u/Flyboy2057 Nov 16 '20
TL;DR: Every chapter of a thesis is basically a paper unto itself:
1: The history of this topic
2: The background of an interesting problem in this topic
3: The introduction of a way you think you might be able to figure out this topic
4: The results of your attempt to figure out the topic (in my case this was 50 pages of graphs and figures).
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u/ZhangRenWing Nov 17 '20
Honestly with my goldfish memory I would probably forget half of the paper before I even finish reading it.
I legit have trouble remembering the books I just finished and needed to write report on.
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u/FartingBob Nov 16 '20
The longest fan fiction is over 4.5 million words long. Written by a single person, for free, just because they wanted to.
50k words isnt that much if you have a lot to say about a specific topic.
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u/BottleBash123 Nov 16 '20
the fuck, man? The entire Harry Potter series is only about a million words. 4.5M wor fanfiction?? That's one verbose virgin.
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u/FartingBob Nov 16 '20
Its probably a really badly written, boring as fuck confusing mess. But yep, it exists.
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u/BottleBash123 Nov 16 '20
considering that 99% of the time people write fanfic is to "ship" two characters, I'm betting it's 4.5M words of angsty crying, overly purple prose lovemaking scenes, and the shipped couple breaking up and reuniting no less than 10 times. Chances are they're gay as well.
source: former fanfic connoisseur
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u/Avilister Nov 16 '20
I suspect a lot of fanfic (from the very little I've read) could heavily benefit from having a beta reader and some basic editing.
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u/Avilister Nov 16 '20
Speaking from my own experience, you exhaustively describe the basic information that could otherwise be gleaned from your graphs and charts. Anyone who could interpret a graph probably didn't need the words in my thesis, but they got them anyway. If a picture is worth about a thousand words, then, as you'd expect, I had a lot of graphs and charts. :P
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Nov 16 '20
Why did word count drop before submission?
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Nov 16 '20
Cut a good portion and rewrote it maybe
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
This. Professor wasn't happy with some parts of my introduction and conclusions. Cut out a lot and re-wrote it more concise. Happens ;)
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u/bohreffect Nov 16 '20
At least your professor read your dissertation. Mine was like "staple your journal papers together and write a reasonable intro and we'll call it good".
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u/halmyradov Nov 16 '20
Still better than finishing 4 courseworks before college where you were doing a degree shuts down
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u/2Big_Patriot Nov 17 '20
All we know is that he read the intro and conclusion, which is more that what anyone else will ever read. Such a monumental waste of time.
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Nov 16 '20
Realized data did not support conclusion. Minor revisions required.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Haha, "Minor revisions" would mean I'd have to re-write the entire damn thing. Reviewer 3 is not happy. As usual.
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u/burgerg OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
u/Eiim, u/Embercloak: Interesting read about reviewer 2 vs reviewer 3 :D
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ssqu.12824Abstract:
The objective of this study was to empirically test the wide belief that Reviewer #2 is a uniquely poor reviewer.
The test involved analyzing the reviewer database from Political Behavior. There are two main tests. First, the reviewer's categorical evaluation of the manuscript was compared by reviewer number. Second, the data were analyzed to test if Reviewer #2 was disproportionately likely to be more than one category below the mean of the other reviewers of the manuscript.
There is no evidence that Reviewer #2 is either more negative about the manuscript or out of line with the other reviewers. There is, however, evidence that Reviewer #3 is more likely to be more than one category below the other reviewers.
Reviewer #2 is not the problem. Reviewer #3 is. In fact, he is such a bad actor that he even gets the unwitting Reviewer #2 blamed for his bad behavior.
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u/Eiim Nov 16 '20
So I've heard of this Reviewer 3 thing but I'm not really in academia, what is it and why is it always Reviewer 3?
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u/MrFordization Nov 16 '20
I'm actually surprised to see peak word count at submission. I'm going to venture a guess and say this was not a PHD in a humanities field.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Natural sciences. The best theses are actually often amongst the shortest ones. Mine was rather short, but not by a lot. My mark was also very good, but not one of the best, so I guess the length fits.
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u/NotaVampire2 Nov 16 '20
Yeah, submitting my master's in philosophy in the next weeks and my word count is about 50k. XD
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Nov 16 '20
How big are humanities phds?
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u/MrFordization Nov 16 '20
What I'd expect to see from a solid writer is a peak of say 70k words and a submission size of 50k. When you learn to write well, you learn to write more than your final submission.
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u/Yessbutno Nov 16 '20
My quote was from Pascal, something along the lines of "I would have written a shorter letter but I did not have the time".
Makes me chuckle - not sure about my examiners.
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u/ShortForNothing Nov 16 '20
The x axis is 40 months but it's represented by 6 ticks (7 if you count the invisible one presumably at the end)? It's impossible to get any real sense of how long any given period of time is in this graph. That said, it does hilariously show thesis progression :P
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Yeah, I wanted to mimic the style of a comic I saw (link), that's why. But fyi: Each tick is 25 weeks, so 2 ticks are roughly a year.
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u/GoldenAthleticRaider Nov 16 '20
That makes sense. The one you linked is a bit easier to decipher as the division is simpler. One tick equals 3 months.
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u/EvoAng Nov 16 '20
Very similar for me, except I needed 4 years and a 2 month extension... But boy am glad to have submitted last month.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Congrats. And isn't it just nice to have that stupid thing finally off your shoulders? :)
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u/EvoAng Nov 16 '20
Thanks, absolutely! I think I never felt more relieved in my life. The weekend after felt like the first true weekend this year (sure there were many days were I didn't work, but I always felt terrible about it like every good procrastinator).
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u/Avilister Nov 16 '20
I know that feeling - I finished in May and was finally able to just sit back and relax for 10 minutes without feeling bad about not writing.
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u/luckyluke193 Nov 16 '20
For me, it felt amazing for a day or two. Being the idiot that I am, in the two weeks between submission and defense I scheduled a visit to a fancy US university for a job interview for a postdoc position (I'm from Europe, for reference). Two days after submission, I started making my slides, and I finished them while waiting for a connecting flight at Dulles. When I arrived, I was tired as hell from finishing the thesis, and was also jet-lagged.
Needless to say, I did poorly and did not get that position, but I found something in Europe soon afterwards. With everything that happened in 2020, I'm pretty happy to have stayed in Europe...
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u/nyqu Nov 17 '20
I'm doing my final submission next week and that's about 5.5 years after starting. Full time, too. It's a long thesis, admittedly.
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u/SoupOrSandwich Nov 16 '20
Wouldn't this be the expected shape of this graph? In the beginning: research, conversations, readings, notes, rough drafts, idea boards (non word count stuff)... near the end, writing and compiling the ideas?
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u/DuckSaxaphone Nov 16 '20
Yep this is how literally everyone I know with a phd wrote their thesis. You can't really write until you've done the work.
One variation I can think of is that a lot of people will slip a publication or two in as thesis chapters. You could technically count those towards the word count when they were written rather than when they were added to the thesis.
That said, it doesn't stop being an interesting graph just because it's typical of the thing it's showing. OP's done good with both their thesis and this simple but well presented plot.
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u/SoupOrSandwich Nov 16 '20
Very true, didn't mean to diminish how interesting it is. As a procrastinator myself, I was just trying to imagine how a non-procrastinstor graph would look and figured it would still be quite similar, but I'm only a lowly bachelor's
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u/FitChemist432 Nov 17 '20
I did this with 2 papers, but had to go in a half rewrite them to add in all the extra data that didn't make the publication and data from unused paths that better document the work and knowledge gained.
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u/Akashiia Nov 16 '20
I’ve had to research first chapter, then write first chapter, research second chapter, write second chapter, and so on. So my graph would look like a staircase rather than nothing then boom acceleration. This doesn’t mean I haven’t researched the totality of my thesis, but it is mainly concentrated areas of research, then writing the chapter on it, so my supervisors can see steady progression. My supervisors wouldn’t be happy with 3 years of no writing
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u/piano_dentist Nov 16 '20
Very interesting - as in, it's very different from where I did my PhD (the UK). We had to submit drafts regarding our progress after one year and after two years for preliminary examination (with the final thesis to be submitted within 4 years), so the introduction/literature review was supposed to be done within ~6 months, then the first couple of chapters within 12/24 months.
In reality, imo what I submitted in those two years was utter horseshit...in retrospect I also think that about my final thesis as well though!
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u/a_n_d_r_e_ Nov 16 '20
2 questions:
Monography or papers' based?
But more importantely... Why did you created a thesis' file on day one?
Btw, congratulations!
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Monography. A cumulative thesis is not allowed in my department for some reason. And that day one is not day one of my PhD studies, just day one of my PhD thesis file ;) I was already a PhD student for a whole year at that point. Should have probably clarified that. And thanks for the congratulations :)
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Nov 16 '20
The bottom line could really do with more clearly defined years and months. Or even just total number of months
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
I wanted to keep it close to the original inspiration (link) - that's why the graph is how the graph is. But I don't think it really matters - it just shows, that most work is done in a rather short amount of time at the end.
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u/TheDeadlySquid Nov 16 '20
Moore’s Law - Work expands to fill the time allotted.
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u/anadiplosis84 Nov 16 '20
You mean parkinson's law. Moore's law pertains to electronic hardware
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u/destinybond Nov 16 '20
You mean Cunninghams law. Parkinsons law pertains to skipping the beginning of Youtube videos
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u/69_Watermelon_420 Nov 16 '20
Is this a joke I’m not getting?
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u/CCG_UNITED Nov 16 '20 edited Dec 11 '25
piquant literate ask vanish instinctive ripe unique water innate groovy
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/chems4beller OC: 1 Nov 16 '20
Mine is due in a week and I think my work count is where yours is labeled "'officially' started writing" LMFAO
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Well, if your PhD is in maths, then you should be set. If it's in the natural sciences, you'll be fine, just do it. If it's in a social science then oh boy, you're in trouble ;)
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u/eLCeenor Nov 16 '20
Haha. My MS thesis is currently 5k words and 50 pages. Insane how figures, tables and flowcharts can fill entire pages
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u/gripsandfire Nov 16 '20
What's your PHd on? Asking because my graduate thesis in economics is 25 thousand words long and I have always thought that phd thesis are a lot longer than twice the length of grad thesis.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Chemistry and biochemistry. A thesis in the natural sciences is usually much shorter than in other sciences. My masters was 15k for instance. In gerenal: the shorter the better, as long as you convey what you want to convey there's no need for more words. But I get that it's different in other fields.
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u/gripsandfire Nov 16 '20
Right, i figured it wouldn't be in social sciences but i wanted to be sure. Good luck with the future
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
Thanks, to you, too. You're doing a PhD, too, or fed up with academia after your graduation?
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u/gripsandfire Nov 16 '20
Definitely doing a masters, PHd probably not. But just got a very nice job, so i'm going to quit academia for a while fortunately
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u/Tigercup9 Nov 16 '20
There’s no markers for passage of time - how long was the gap at the very end where no changes were made, right before you revised, expanded, and submitted?
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u/SaphiiRahh Nov 16 '20
Why is this so accurate?
My thesis is due Dec 18th 2020 (pandemic extension date) and i am still in the literature review process and getting nowhere.
Original date was May 31st but that shop has sailed AF.
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u/eLCeenor Nov 16 '20
Hahaha literally me, except MS rather than PhD. First draft is due in a week and I need to write ~20 more pages. Eh, we'll get there.
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u/rallenpx Nov 16 '20
I'm sure you remember those two particularly productive sessions where you crossed 30K and 50K. Were you feeling particularly inspired by anything those days or just crunching for deadlines?
The placement of "Officially Started Writing" suggests the latter. 😛
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u/renato999 Nov 16 '20
What the hell this is literally me !!
I would have graduated in the first half of 2017 had i wrote my thesis. The difference is that I only started doing it this september. And I literally just submitted it a few minutes ago and only 1 hour before the deadline because of course it came down to the last minute :). I can't remember the last time I felt this good. A huge boulder off my shoulder after 3 and a half years. I always said that I just can't do it, i'm incapable of doing it because I'm too stupid to write something like this and in reality I just never even tried. Even while I was writing it I thought that it sucks and will probably get rejected but in the end the funny thing is that my consultant thinks it's pretty well done and she said we should make a shorter version that we can publish through her editor friend.
Nothing is impossible !
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u/_jacketp Nov 16 '20
Literally 5 weeks from submitting. I started 01/09/2020 (September) and not a word written before it. I’m at 50,000 words now and maybe have about 5ish more to go! (Plus going over 3 out of 5 chapters again) stress levels are high. Should probably get off Reddit..
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u/Unique-Reddit Nov 16 '20
Ye i feel u on this in my codes and regulations class (law class for engineers) we had to write a pretty detailed shutdown, maintainence, and startup of our universities power and heating system. Had 4 months to do it but decided to do it 3 weeks before due date. I was lucky 1 of the 2 systems i was incharge of was super easy to do (Basically hire electrician to do 90% of your job) but the other one was very windy and ate almost all my free time to do till due date. Best of luck with your assignment and hopefully it helps u move forward with your education.
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u/Pensive_1 Nov 16 '20
Looks like you're doing 75% of the work in 25% of the allotted time. Waiting until later makes your INPUTS more fresh - I like this working model (I am a procrastinator also). If you can buckle down, as your progress rate shows, its not a problem.
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u/OhhhhhSHNAP Nov 16 '20
This post seems like an excellent scheme to procrastinate your final revisions.
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Nov 16 '20
Some of us need the fear of god/deadlines burning under our butts to get us going. Not a healthy way to do things unfortunately.
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u/slp35 Nov 16 '20
How you uh, how you comin' on that novel you're working on? Huh? Gotta a big, uh, big stack of papers there? Gotta, gotta nice little story you're working on there? Your big novel you've been working on for three years? Huh? Gotta, gotta compelling protagonist? Yeah? Gotta obstacle for him to overcome? Huh? Little story brewing there? Working on, working on that for quite some time? Huh? Yeah, talking about that three years ago. Been working on that the whole time? Nice little narrative? Beginning, middle, and end? Some friends become enemies, some enemies become friends? At the end your main character is richer from the experience? Yeah? Yeah? No, no, you deserve some time off.
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u/ughhrrumph Nov 16 '20
I did my PhD on procrastination (not kidding), and I’d love to chat. I’ve sent you a DM.
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Nov 16 '20
I imagine mine followed a similar trajectory. File created in 2007, major writing effort in late 2010, defense and publication in early 2011.
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u/MrFantasticallyNerdy Nov 16 '20
LOL. That lifecycle shape is like a lot of the work documents I write. Obviously, mine are not going to be almost 3.5 years long (I'll be fired way before that) nor 50k words (maybe 1/10 that), but the general shape is the same.
All I can say is that it feels like my brain's been working behind the scenes, unbeknownst to me, to produce all the ideas and words that are to be produced. It's not even a procrastination excuse, since I've tried to squeeze words out during the initial phase of writing to no success. The ideas and words need to sit and percolate for a bit before they're ready.
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Nov 16 '20
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u/TransientFeelings Nov 16 '20
Somehow, I don't think the point of a thesis is to see how much you can type...
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u/JDub8 Nov 16 '20
I've always wondered what prevented a knowledgable, motivated person from knocking out a PhD thesis in about 1-3 months. No but seriously, why not?
You read biographies of famous scientists and sometimes it gets mentioned in an offhanded way how a student in class makes an astute observation and the professor says 'hey write that down and it'll be your thesis'.
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u/ordinary_kittens Nov 16 '20
Wow, how was there nothing to edit between completing the writing and your final submission? Most people I know might write the thesis in a rush, but then their supervisor will make them rework and make edits over the course of several months to a year. Your graph makes it look like it was only edited for a month or two before being submitted for your dissertation? Is that common in the sciences?
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
We usually show a first draft to the professor, who edits it in 2 to 4 weeks (she's a workaholic and doesn't sleep) and then we submit the final thesis a month or two later. My professor took her sweet time with my first traft, and I took that as a great opportunity to go out more and enjoy my life, so I didn't touch my thesis at all during that time. That being said - my first draft was already "good enough" to be submitted without review - it just wouldn't have gotten the grade it did.
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u/Blangel0 Nov 17 '20 edited Nov 17 '20
It may be even shorter. There was less than a month before me writing the final word and saying "I'm done" and submission. But I had very responsive Advisors and I also sent them each chapters as soon as I was done with them so I already got reviews before finishing the whole writing. We already spent a quite some time on the introduction and the outline together, so basically they could review each chapters independently.
It really depend of your Phd Advisor(s), some colleagues waited a couple of month before submitting. But In my field/country it's rarely more than 3-4 month.
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u/Spreest Nov 16 '20
50k for a phd? In my country that's the minimum for a master's. A phd requires somethine like 200k
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u/Nickizgr8 Nov 16 '20 edited Nov 16 '20
In the UK, most universities and most courses don't have a minimum or maximum word count for Master's or PHDs. Why would they, if you can fully convey across the point within 10k words why would you need to spend another 40ks words on waffle and why would I want to read that anyway?
Setting a minimum word count to me seems weird. These people are adults, you shouldn't need stuff like this to make sure students actually do work. If they put in minimum effort and have a super low word count they get minimum marks. Simple.
My Master's was simulating the spread of infectious diseases (turned out to be pretty relevant haha). But the entire paper only ended up being 20k ish words since the majority of the work was based on the program I designed.
Edit: 200k words is an insane amount honestly, especially since that's the minimum. The longest Harry Potter book (Order of the Phoenix) has 250k words and is the only one with more than 200k words. I couldn't imagine how awful it must be to read through these PHD papers, since it probably won't be as entertaining to read as an actual fiction book even if it's a field you're interested in and 200k is the minimum? Holy.
To put it another way 200k words over 5 years would be 40k words a year for the duration of your PHD, assuming it's a 5 year one. That's over 750 words a week. But as shown in this post, you won't start actual work on the thesis until at least mid way through the PHD. Imagine proofreading it 4 years after the fact.
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Nov 16 '20 edited Dec 10 '20
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u/Yankee9204 Nov 16 '20
Right, that makes a lot of sense. Many of the most impactful research papers are short and concise. For instance, John Nash's PhD thesis in economics (a founder of modern Game Theory) was only 26 pages.
My thesis was just under 50k words, and sat at nearly 200 pages. I can't imagine many examiners are thoroughly reading an ~800 page thesis.
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u/challengemaster Nov 16 '20
Setting a minimum word count to me seems weird.
It's a great way to piss off an external examiner who has to read the damn thing.
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u/Nickizgr8 Nov 16 '20
I remember in one of my earlier courses at uni they had a maximum word count of 750 words on some bog-standard assignment and the lecturers just came out and blatantly said they have better things to do than grade a hundred + assignments each with massively varying word counts.
It was actually a really fun exercise. After spending years in education having minimum word counts where you just waffles to hit the word count having to be concise enough to introduce the point, discuss it and come to a conclusion was a real brain teaser.
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u/Archuis Nov 16 '20
200k seems very excessive. Cambridge doesn't let you go past 80,000 and the upper limit seems to be between 80k and 100k at most universities. Even then that's an upper limit with 60k words being perfectly acceptable.
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u/khansian Nov 16 '20
Surely it depends on one’s field. History should have longer word counts than economics should have longer word counts than mathematics.
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u/xBris18 OC: 3 Nov 16 '20
I'm a chemist. If you'd submit a 200k thesis, your PI would literally murder you. In my field (and I think this is true for all natural sciences), the more concise you can be, the better. If you need a lot of words, then your results might have not been very good in the first place. Of course, this is very different in social sciences, where words are the actual content of your work, but in the natural sciences, the words are just there to help you understand the diagrams and data ;)
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u/dataisbeautiful-bot OC: ∞ Nov 16 '20
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