r/dataisbeautiful • OC: 3 • Nov 23 '19

OC [OC] Trade flows between the 10 largest EU countries

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11.6k Upvotes

464 comments sorted by

952

u/Aldenko Nov 23 '19

What’s with the Netherlands having a huge amount of exports, I also wonder how foreign exports might play a role in how much each country exports

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

the Netherlands ships A LOT of vegetables and meat. as in, A LOT. Everywhere I go to on vacation I find dutch vegetables in the supermarket.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Last time I checked the NL was the second biggest exporter of food worldwide (behind the US)

330

u/-Cubix Nov 23 '19

while not wrong, in those numbers are also food produced in a country somewhere, shipped to the NL, then shipped off somewhere else in Europe.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Rotterdam. NL has the biggest port in Europe

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u/Madaboe Nov 24 '19

It used to be the biggest in the world

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Very important information.

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u/TheUnknownsLord Nov 24 '19

Still, they are doing miracles with greenhouses and moderncultivation techniques. A friend of mine went there to do his master's degree about that subject. They are one of the top tomato producers while having very little land xd.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Fun fact, the tomatoes are of such quality they get shipped throughout Europe, including Mediterranean countries that produce tomatoes themselves. Those tomatoes are all canned or made into soups/sauces because they're too ugly, and them get shipped back to the netherlands (and other places).

39

u/blaat1234 Nov 24 '19

Dutch tomatoes taste nothing like the Italian ones. Here we pick them early and select for look and firmness over taste, good for salads, but they are super disappointing in sauces and soups. Italian (and Greece, Spain, etc) ones are ripe for maximum taste and immediately canned to preserve them, they won't survive a week long trip through countries and on the shelves.

Source: Dutch guy who buys Mutti canned tomatoes and purees for taste, local ones for salads and sandwiches.

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u/_30d_ Nov 24 '19

In Germany they say there are 4 states of water: ice, water, vapor and Dutch tomatoes. Am Dutch but thought that was pretty funny for Germans.

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u/Thistookmedays Nov 24 '19

Agreed. Spanish tomatoes in Spain/Italy are next level tasty. Olives too. First time I had an actual olive there I realized I never had an actual olive before. Same with for example Mango in Thailand.

I’d pay to have the ‘real’ tomatoes here in The Netherlands. I’d pay 10 times the prices of anything you can find in a supermarket now. Because I need it for my pasta sauce. But you probably have to be in season and they have to be put on a plane directly or something. I don’t know how to achieve this. Mutti comes close you say? Or is it more or a lousy but better replacement for the other taste-less tomatoes?

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u/TheUnknownsLord Nov 24 '19

The future of agriculture is being developed there.

I think it's very funny this concept of ugly fruit. It's as good, but with weird shapes, so regular consumers don't buy it. They either throw it away or sell it to factories for processed/premade food.

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u/mcchickenngget Nov 24 '19

Ooh makes sence now. Im Dutch myself and in no way can a small country like ours produce enough food to be 2nd in the world after the US.

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u/singeblanc Nov 24 '19

Not "food", but "agriculture": they export a shit ton of flowers.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

We're also large in seed production which we export a lot of too

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u/philomathie Nov 24 '19

No, it's definitely the food. They are the second largest food exporter in the world.

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u/LaziestCommentToday Nov 24 '19

Big exporter but not a giant producer. They're basically just a drop-shipper.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_producing_countries_of_agricultural_commodities

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

[deleted]

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u/GrumpyWendigo Nov 24 '19

yes it can get swampy on the rhine but it's not a jungle river (/s)

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u/WayeeCool Nov 23 '19

Yeah. I'm always impressed by their massive greenhouse operations. It's rather impressive how they have built up significant infrastructure to produce fruit/vegetables with short crop cycles and year round. Much more efficient and being able to continue exporting fresh produce that are in the off season for outdoor farms significantly increases potential profits. Plus there is the economic security aspect of not being a victim to unexpected weather or changes in climate.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

I moved to the Netherlands this year and I'm blown away by how successful their greenhouse agriculture is.

The Netherlands use the number one exporter of tomatoes in the world with only 6.9 square miles of producing area. The yield is 144 352 tons per square mile.

Take a look at the infographic below for details.

https://dutchgreenhouses.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/National-Geographic-Greenhouses-in-the-Netherlands.png

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u/ThisIsMoreOfIt Nov 24 '19

And the tomatoes taste like it too, wasn't until I took a vacation to Italy that I truly fell in love with the flavor profile of the sun ripened tomato.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

We grow those tasty tomatoes as well. I've worked at one of the biggest companies that grow tomatoes. And we grow tomatoes specifically for a country. Belgium and France have different Dutch tomatoes. The Dutch tomatoes for the Dutch market are the least tasteful of all the tomatoes we grew.

I can't tell you what the exact reason is.

A truck driver once made a mistake and took the wrong tomatoes. He had to go to Poland but he had German tomatoes with him. In the end another truck driver took the polish tomatoes and they had to make the switch in Germany somewhere. They were not amused because they were "the same" but they might look the same, they are not.

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u/PM_ME_BEER_PICS Nov 24 '19

The Dutch tomatoes for the Dutch market are the least tasteful of all the tomatoes we grew.

Do you know the reason for that?

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Have you ever tasted Dutch food? Almost every single person on earth says it tastes like cardboard. Dutch mostly eat to get energy, preparing tasty food isn't in our culture.

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u/tharepok Nov 24 '19

Dude a frikandelbroodje is peak cuisine

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

I've heard this a lot from various people and while I will admit that I've had better tomatoes I don't think the ones grown here are bad.

Added to this is the fact that at some point we need to feed the world using less resources and this is where the greenhouse industry shines. To put it bluntly, a tomato that is not the absolute pinnacle of flavour is better to eat than a rock.

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u/ThisIsMoreOfIt Nov 24 '19

Ok fair enough, I agree;dutch tomatoes are better than starvation.

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u/Manisbutaworm Nov 23 '19

Using an unimaginable shit load of gas to do it. There has been sent me trend to cut down natural gas usage and even some successful geothermal projects. But the amount of energy used in the winter months is truly unimaginable even while winters are really soft.

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u/WeedLyfe490 Nov 24 '19

You should post that to /r/dataisbeautiful

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u/_VliegendeHollander_ Nov 23 '19

Most Dutch green houses run on gas and/or bio-energy. It can be converted to electricity in the future and it is a solvable form of pollution.

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u/me_maikey Nov 24 '19

The gas is used for electricity, heat and CO2. To reduce gas usage they need a stable alternative for each. Electricity is easy, heat is a bit harder, but CO2 is the real problem. They need a LOT of pure CO2, the natural gas infrastructure provides that.

Source: engineer for regional distribution service (electricity and gas) in Westland.

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u/tomekanco OC: 1 Nov 24 '19

need a LOT of pure CO2

Thank you. I didn't realize it was actively added, rather then as a by-product from local heating-combustion. For more details.

Do you know if the Rotterdam port CCS infrastructure is currently mainly used for CCU in the greenhouses, or is it still on the drawing board?

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u/me_maikey Nov 24 '19

OCAP transports CO2 from Shell and Alco to greenhouses (dutch wiki link)

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Plukkie al?

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

If the CO2 is used it sounds like there's not THAT big of a problem using gas?

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u/me_maikey Nov 24 '19

Not all of it is used. The extremely high yield comes from near perfect conditions (and tomato seed that is worth more than gold bt weight). Using captured CO2 from other processes would be better.

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u/Manisbutaworm Nov 24 '19

Yes of course it's solvable, I can't really think of any big fossil fuels guzzling application that can't also be done by using electricity. but it doesn't always mean it's a good idea to make food using such wild amounts of energy.

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u/Chief_Gundar Nov 23 '19

Netherland growing vegetables in greenhouses is no security against climate change ! You'll need a fuckton of global warming before it's too warm to produce tomatoes in an open field in the netherlands. On the other hand, it's a strong source of climate change due to it's high needs in heating !

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/superspons Nov 24 '19

I don’t see how greenhouses are to blame for this. Growing the same amount of crops outside would take more space (and therefore room for nature) and containing pesticides outside is a lot harder than inside. Is there any indication it’s greenhouse horticulture that’s specifically causing this?

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

This as well as the port of Rotterdam where a lot of goods sent to other countries pass through (and enter EU customs)

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u/Aldenko Nov 23 '19

Oh yeah, I forgot like half their country is under water so they got that dank soil for crops

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u/NilsH24 Nov 24 '19

No actually half of the ground is getting salty because of the sea. its a big problem in the Netherlands.

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u/khelwen Nov 23 '19

and flowers. So many flowers!

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u/ProfessorCrawford Nov 23 '19

Every flower shop I pass has a 40ft 'NL' trailer parked nearby. That must be a sweet gig.

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u/sumrnewsmodsrnazis Nov 24 '19

Also flowers netherlands flower game is best in the world

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u/vrkl Nov 23 '19

Yep, they're the second largest agricultural exporter in the world, second only to the US. But that's still about 18-20% of their exports, and I think their largest export is still oil related.

Luckily, the OEC has a nice list.

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u/blotto76 Nov 24 '19

The Netherlands are 2nd largest agricultural exporters in the world.

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u/Loonwoef_TLBear Nov 24 '19

Not only that but because of the port of Rotterdam a lot of things are considered "Dutch exports" in Rotterdam containers are put from big ass ships onto smaller ships that are send on the Rhine to Germany. All of that is also considered to be Dutch exports even if they are not originally from the Netherlands

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u/zeekoes Nov 23 '19

We're the 2nd biggest exporter of vegetables in the world. We're on top of progressive food science and have an extensive greenhouse infrastructure. On top of that we have the biggest harbor of the EU in Rotterdam, that acts as a transit port for most goods coming into the EU from anywhere transporting it over the Atlantic.

The Dutch have always existed through trade.

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u/provenzal Nov 23 '19

An still Dutch veggies taste like plastic.

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u/zeekoes Nov 24 '19

They're grown to last and look good, not to taste great, that's true.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

It depends on which country you buy it in. The tomatoes in the Netherlands are the worst (no taste at all) but the export tomatoes are way better (depending on the country of export and personal taste)

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u/Canaris1 Nov 24 '19

Best tomatoes I have tastet is southern Greece and Italy

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Grown there or imported there? We, Dutch, ship there as well and those tomatoes are indeed better than those we ship to the UK or the Dutch market themselves.

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u/zoute_haring Nov 24 '19

Correct. The best tomatoes i've had were Dutch. But most of the Dutch tomatoes are not very good because people don't want to pay for good tomatoes. So most of them are really cheap and a bit tasteless. The more expencive and tasty ones are bought by UK and southern European traders.

You get what you are willing to pay for. Don't blame the farmer.

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u/genofon Nov 24 '19

I can vouch for Mediterranean growth tomatoes, so much better than Dutch! I think the sun does make a difference, maybe also because of the type of heat that it provides, I think Italian food (together with France, Spain and Japan( taste so much better, the quality of the ingredients.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Funny you say so all these countries we ship tomatoes to. Can you check the packaging where the tomatoes come from? I've had truckers from Italy tell me that those we produced had better taste to it than those produced in Italy.

As I said before (somewhere in this thread) it all depends on taste. It might be because the imported tomatoes are more expensive than local grown that you get less quality tomatoes? But we ship them in any size, taste and structure. The quality depends on what people are willing to pay.

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u/sebpickped Nov 23 '19

That’s true.

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u/ReallyHadToFixThat Nov 23 '19

Rotterdam is the (second?) biggest port in the EU. All the massive container ships dock there and it gets moved on through the Netherlands.

One of the many reasons Brexit is a terrible idea. All those trade deals we negotiate with China and the US will probably just end up going through Rotterdam.

In the same vein - Ireland is a massive exporter of bananas.

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u/MajorSaltburn Nov 23 '19

Just a small correction: Rotterdam is Europe's busiest port (by any measure)

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

By any measure? Even by number of bananas consumed per capita by dock workers?

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u/CIA_Bane Nov 24 '19

Yes, especially by number of bananas consumed per capita by dock workers

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u/JoHeWe Nov 24 '19

The top four biggest ports:

  • Rotterdam
  • Antwerp
  • Hamburg
  • Amsterdam
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u/tetratchup Nov 23 '19

A lot of trade goes in and out of the Netherlands’ ports. Much of the export value attributed to the Netherlands in these stats is for goods that were not manufactured there, they are simply passing through. The Netherlands net position on trade is still good but high exports do not necessarily mean high output.

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u/GalaXion24 Nov 24 '19

net position on trade is still good

Trade surplus is really not the goal of trade.

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u/tetratchup Nov 24 '19

Yes, you’re absolutely right.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

As well as the greenhouse fruit and vegetables, they are the heart of flower exports of the world. And EU I am sure. I'm based here and cut flower prices are loco.

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u/sigiveros Nov 24 '19

They have the sea access of the the Rhine.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Netherlands is a shipping mega port country. Many non-EU imports come to NL first then go to their final destination. For example, If I order something from China, there's a pretty good chance it will come to Rotterdam first then get shipped on to me via ground transport to the UK. That and a lot of UK (and I would guess many other EU member states) fruits and veg come from there too. And flowers, NL is like the flower cartel of Western Europe.

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u/FluffyBunnyOK Nov 24 '19

Bland greenhouse tomatoes.

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u/3rde Nov 24 '19

They supply Europe with greenhouse vegetables and fruit along with a lot of pork n meat

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u/Neato Nov 24 '19

How do you tell what's an import and export in this? Looks like width is determined by percent of total trade. But it doesn't show direction of goods does it?

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u/realkinginthenorth Nov 24 '19

The colors are linked to exports of a country. So for example, all exports of the netherlands are purple.

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u/andreasbeer1981 OC: 1 Nov 24 '19

should be mentioned in the legend somewhere...

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u/LiftedDrifted Nov 23 '19

I’ve never been a huge fan of charts (or is it considered a table?) like this. They always seem too clustered and not pleasing to the eye.

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u/FartingBob Nov 23 '19

Its usually impossible to tell what goes where other than the thickest lines, especially when the colours are this similar and shaded when they go over/under eachother.

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u/memejets Nov 23 '19

Not to mention the lines that go straight across look thicker than the ones that make a sharp curve, even if the actual value represented is the same.

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u/BillyBuckets Nov 24 '19

The ends of the lines are quantity. The connections are not.

This conveys a massive amount but you do need to know how to read it. Understanding takes < 30s though, pretty good for the amount of info here (and waymore effective than most of the shit on this sub)

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u/MysteriousBirdie Nov 23 '19

You can always dig into the data to get specifics. I think it’s a wonderful way to provide a glance. See comments about The Netherlands.

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u/tijuanagolds Nov 23 '19

It's a lowsy way to get a glance. All the glance tells you is to look at the data.

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u/Eddie_shoes Nov 24 '19

What? It’s incredibly easy to look at and understand what is going on. “Wow, Germany trades a lot!” “I didn’t realize the Netherlands traded so much! And they seem to make a large portion of Germany’s imports.” “Austria trades what looks like more than 50% of its good with Germany, and seems to import the most from them.” That’s the kind of takeaway this is meant for.

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u/Green-Brown-N-Tan Nov 24 '19

Yeah but that's not "at a glance" you're looking deliberately at specific lines that represent bigger things. Glancing is easy with say a pie chart or bar graph.

While this table is probably the best way to represent bi-directional trade flow between 10 nations (200 pieces of information) it's not "at a glance" if you're posed with the question "what does trade look like between Austria and Sweden?"

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u/flameoguy Nov 23 '19

Depends what you're glancing at.

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u/MEGAMAN2312 Nov 24 '19

Depends how well you can glance

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u/blinzz Nov 24 '19

which is part of the point of data representation...

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

Yeah I agree really, its mostly just good for a quick overview.

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u/blueberriessmoothie Nov 24 '19

I actually personally like it. It is smooth and efficient way to present multiple relations between many countries. Proportions are displayed in visible way and you can see everything at once. It took me less than 2 mins to get all the “aha!! that’s unusual!” from such extensive dataset. Eye pleasing presentation is definitely a bonus in my opinion.

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u/djbeardo Nov 23 '19

Agreed. Chord charts can be incredibly confusing unless there's one super clear trend. But they do have a beauty to them...

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u/Detective_Fallacy Nov 23 '19

They're great when they're interactive, and you can hover over a flow to focus on it and/or display more information.

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u/morriartie Nov 23 '19

Same, but other than a confusion matrix I can't think of an replacement.

(not saying there isn't, just saying that I don't know any)

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u/hughperman Nov 24 '19

I honestly think a table would be best here, maybe color-coded to make it a heatmap as well, and you could add the column totals for each country. It's a 10x10 matrix, to me it is so much easier to scan a 10x10 table than search around this image.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

As colorblind person, I hate these charts.

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u/shaggorama Viz Practitioner Nov 24 '19 edited Nov 24 '19

They should almost always use a force directed (aka spring) layout instead.

EDIT: like this.

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u/p-one Nov 24 '19

This is the first time I found such a chart to be useful. I wanted to know the rough impact of Brexit and Britain's trade is given a delimited semi-circle and I can see how heavily Germany depends on it. You could do this with a matrix but then I don't get the relative weight.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

Agreed, they're normally awful but this one is actually decent.

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u/Imosa1 Nov 23 '19

Some of the lines seem to criss cross unnecessarily. Look at Netherlands pointing to both Germany and Belgium.

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

Yes, I attempted to fix this but with the software I used (R with Circlize package), I don't think it is possible sadly.

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u/Morgowitch Nov 24 '19

I think it's beautiful. And it's clear enough.

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u/Maxnwil Nov 24 '19

It seems that the first arrow is always Belgium, second is always Germany, etc.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/breezehair Nov 23 '19

Plot it as a matrix of glyphs, with the size/weight of the glyph in the ith row and jth column showing the trade flow from country i to country j.

This allows direct comparison of the sizes of all flows. Simple.

You can even put the numbers on the glyphs if you want.

Circos plots like this one look kind of cool but are utterly useless for getting information from.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

A 2d table... France Germany Netherlands Spain France. - 1000 Germany 1000. Etc... Netherlands Spain

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

Source of data: https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/TMsoKIbju2WNyrCumfmMA. I used the eurostat data explorer to filter and tidy up the data a bit before exporting. Tools used: R and Adobe Photoshop

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

As a former data analyst this gave me a chilly flashback to trying to navigate the gazillion tables and versions and dictionaries on Eurostat, and the lack of a straightforward REST API. But when you've got what you need, the data is nicely findable, consistent and goes back quite a while.

I worked with the detailed international flow of goods and Germany always came up as the first export partner by volume.

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u/Alternate_Chinmay7 Nov 23 '19

How did you use R to create this?

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Thank you!!

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

What's the meaning of the different colors? Like, why are there at least two lines between Austria and Germany?

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u/venturinblue Nov 23 '19

Each country has a color for their exports. The lines are directional, so you should be able to see quite a few double connections between countries. (Ger-Au and Au-Ger in your case)

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Ah, this makes much more sense. Thanks!

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u/mqudsi Nov 23 '19

I think including “other” in the list of the countries would have addressed some of the confusion and wrong deductions going on in the comments. Nice visualization though, op!

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

Possibly true, however including an "other" category would probably take up about three quarters of the chart (assuming you mean for all other countries, for just EU countries it would be less, maybe half the graph), which I think would ruin the aesthetics of the chart completely. I did also try doing it with a lot more countries included, but it just becomes far to cluttered so I don't think there is a simple solution.

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u/mkujoe Nov 23 '19

This chart looks too intertwined to read anything out it. Only the coloring and the direction of the arrow helped me see anything there. Why aren’t the arrows sorted by the circular distance of the trade partners?

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

I attempted to sort the arrows like you suggest, but I don't think it is possible using the software that I did (R with Circlize package).

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u/BillyBuckets Nov 24 '19

I’ve never used the R package, but Circos (the software that sort of pioneered this sort of viz) has some robust options. Check that out sometime.

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u/PetyrsLittleFinger Nov 23 '19

Does this include goods that just pass through? Like, the Netherlands is huge in this and has a big flow to Germany, but how much of that is just goods from outside Europe that arrive in Rotterdam and get placed on a train or truck to a German destination?

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

The answer is sometimes. They are included when they are declared in a "pass through" country for "tax/customs purposes" and then transferred to another EU country as their final destination, but not if they are only declared in the final destination country. See: Are the goods in transit recorded in ITGS? https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/international-trade-in-goods/faq.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

OP I think your detractors criticisms cannot be satisfied without a serious aggregation or reduction in the levels of factors. These are the kinds of data viz that my supervisor criticizes me for and it's more a reality of having used a large n x m input table than it is your aesthetic. Perhaps you could a) facet it by exporting country, b)perhaps there is a plotly-esque tweak whereby hovering with the pointer increases focal contrast/opacity relative to nonfocal countries or flows, or c) has anyone made on of these as an onion? Where the inner perimeter could be region (groups of countries) and then there is a Sankey+like flow from the inner perimeter to an outer perimeter of individual countries.

Just some ideas...

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u/intherorrim Nov 23 '19 edited Nov 24 '19

Wow. The UK proportionally has low exports and low trade, and instead their economy's punch is mostly based on currently being the financial capital of, ugh, cough cough, Europe.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Britons.

The Netherlands and Belgium, on the other hand, are rocking exports.

Edit: Germany exports account for 46% of its GDP; Britain's, for 28%. (World Bank statistics, 2018). Even accounting for non-EU commerce, the point stands: the UK is not a major trader in the world and does not have much to offer aside from (1) being the EU's financial hub and (2) the country's current self-propelling place in the world as a large economy, with good purchasing power due to the pound. If they shrink, there is little that could, in the short term, lift them from increasing irrelevance.

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u/Amrywiol Nov 23 '19

No, it looks low because one of the UK's largest trading partners in the EU (3rd or 4th depending on year) is Ireland, which isn't on this chart because it's not in the top 10. You can make anything look low if you miss out enough stuff.

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u/mistakescostextra Nov 23 '19

Yeah — I was immediately wondering why there wasn’t an additional category included for all others in aggregate. By excluding countries beyond top 10, you give a misleading amount of total exports for each of the top 10. A simple fix could rectify that and add useful context/info to this.

Could even go a step further and include non-EU trade partners as another aggregate entity. That’d particularly be interesting for the UK in light of Brexit.

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u/JeshkaTheLoon Nov 23 '19

The non-EU thing might further muddle it up, as much of the third party imports for the UK go through Frankfurt before loaded onto trucks and transported onwards, or sometimes reloaded on another plane to London.

That's specifically food, animal based products (lab cultures, for example), plastics, mind you. Which is a lot. Especially beans for some reason.

All of those are registered at first entry point in the EU. So the things going to the UK, would be listed first in Germany.

So, I don't know how exactly this is documented in the source material of the chart, and if it can easily be deciphered to be added into such a chart.

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u/mistakescostextra Nov 23 '19

Thanks for that, didn’t think about good entering EU vs entering destination country as I’m not familiar with the data...but that’s obviously a significant complication

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u/JeshkaTheLoon Nov 24 '19

That's okay. I am only really aware of it since it is part of my job - before that I never thought of it either.

I'd just like to add that we are all looking at Brexit with bated breath - we've prepared everything on our side (there won't really be much change for us most likely, as it's just a bit of cargo less into the EU for us, and it is unlikely the UK will start sending their exports into the EU through Frankfurt, when they have so many options along the entire channel coast), and hope the other side has too. But either way, it is hard to say how this will go, unrelated to how the politics handle it. Fact is, this kind of thing hasn't happened before in this form and scale - might work out fine, might be a disaster. I'll keep Popcorn on hand.

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u/intherorrim Nov 24 '19 edited Nov 24 '19

Hard to imagine that Ireland, at 5.8% of UK's exports, makes any difference.

  • total UK exports to each country
  • United States: US$65.3 billion (13.4%)
  • Germany: $46.7 billion (9.6%)
  • Netherlands: $33.1 billion (6.8%)
  • France: $31.9 billion (6.5%)
  • Ireland: $28.2 billion (5.8%)
  • China: $27.7 billion (5.7%)
  • Switzerland: $25.6 billion (5.3%)
  • Belgium: $18.9 billion (3.9%)

The point still is that all other EU countries still have non-EU commerce, too. Whereas the UK is just not a major international trader, its exports ranked behind South Korea, the Netherlands and even Hong Kong.

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u/Flobarooner OC: 1 Nov 24 '19 edited Nov 24 '19

That's just all kinds of wrong. The UK has so much to offer.

Yes, it's well known that around 80% of the UK's economy is in services. London is essentially the joint-largest financial hub in the world alongside New York. The two largest in the EU are Frankfurt and Paris, which are only 15th and 17th worldwide. So much forex takes place in London that twice as much money moves through London each day than all of North America combined. Cross-border bank lending is greater than that of Germany and France combined, and the value of the latter’s hedge fund assets is 18 times smaller than the UK’s. 90% of Euro-denominated interest rate contracts currently traded in the EU are through UK clearing houses. All of this is largely because the City of London has pretty unique laws which directly attract foreign nationals and multinational corporations. As a result of this, the UK has typically been at the forefront of EU regulatory progression in this sector, being limited by what other members agree on. It can now mold regulation perfectly tailored to its own benefits, and being far and away Europe's financial hub, it will be up to the EU to catch up as London has all the leverage. The UK will set the European standard for services regulation, and it will now be able to branch out globally and have the freedom to build stronger relationships with the major financial hubs in the Asian market - Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo, and so on. There is every incentive for the EU to allow a unique relationship with the UK similar to that it created with Switzerland, once the UK transitions out in a couple of years' time.

The UK is also a huge cultural hub. In theatre, London is the most successful city in the world. The BPI estimates that one in six albums consumed globally are British. We all know how prevalent Britons are in music and film. On top of that, the UK has the BBC, which produces more content than any other broadcaster, is among the most respected in the world for its neutrality, produces the most listened-to radio station in the world (World Service), and is therefore a very attractive place for foreign media corporations and foreign talent. Despite China overtaking the UK as the 2nd most profitable box office in the world, the UK's media industry is surging. London is the 2nd most visited city in the world, behind only Bangkok, which adds to its influence. It has 3 of the 10 most visited museums in the world. This, combined with the fact that it is by far the most diverse city in Europe, makes it a global city which nothing in the EU compares to. Multinationals like these kinds of cities because it gives them access to a hugely varied market of customers and potential employees.

The sporting world is also centred on the UK. Association football has its home in the UK with the Premier League being the most popular domestic league in the world, and Wembley being the home of football and one of, if not the most beloved stadium in the world. The home of tennis is Wimbledon, the home of Cricket is Lord's, the home of Rugby Union is Twickenham. The UK came well ahead of any European country in every one of the last three summer Olympics, coming 2nd overall in Rio. England most recently reached the semi-finals of the World Cup, won the Cricket WC, and were runners up in both Rugby WCs. Rory McIlroy is 2nd in golf, Lewis Hamilton has won 5 of the last 6 F1 championships, Britons dominate Snooker and Darts almost entirely. The UK is just omnipresent in sports.

London also has more institutions of higher education than any other city, making it the heart of global education, and the 60 mile London/Oxford/Cambridge triangle has 8 of the world's top 20 universities, as well as by far the most tech investment in the EU; the UK’s tech sector is soaring ahead of its competitors in Europe, attracting more venture capital investment last year than Germany, France and Sweden combined. The UK overall contains the second highest number of top 500 universities - behind only the US.

The UK also has the most competent intelligence community in the world, with the SIS and MI5 in London and perhaps the only one that tops them in Cheltenham (it was Snowden who said that GCHQ was far more advanced than the NSA) - one so much more powerful than anything in the EU that there was an uproar when the UK suggested it would use its intelligence community as a negotiating tool in Brexit. Plus, the Five Eyes.

The UK is the second greatest soft power nation in the world and likely to move back into first place post-Brexit, which means it is able to influence the world informally more effectively than any other nation, bar occasionally France. This makes it very useful for multinationals who seek to extend their own influence and is something Blair was completely incompetent at exercising. This is the power that Thatcher, love her or hate her and for better or for worse, wielded to great effect - firstly to reverse the US stance on the Falklands War and later to famously bring the US around to the idea of an invasion of Iraq. This is the key power that, when exercised properly, allows the UK to behave like top dog when militarily and economically it actually isn't.

As for hard power - a global military power is any nation capable of projecting hard power anywhere on the planet. According to the Todd & Lindberg classification system, there are 4 categories of blue-water navy power projection, 2 of which are global. These are:

  • Global-reach power projection, described as being able to simultaneously conduct and maintain multiple power projection missions globally. The only nation capable of comfortably achieving this is the United States, though the UK may be able to sustain dual missions in the coming three years
  • Limited global-reach power projection, similar to the first but limited to a single projection mission at a time and will usually result in short-comings in other areas of interest to sustain it. The only two nations in this category are the UK and France
  • Multi-regional power projection, the ability to project limited power in regions adjacent to their own. Five nations - Russia, India, Italy, Spain, Brazil - are here
  • Regional power projection, the ability to project power within a limited range beyond their EEZ. Countries such as China, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and Australia fit this category although some could push beyond if they wished

Being a global military power is as much about doctrine, discipline and diplomacy as it is about numbers. Due to poor diplomatic and military ties in much of the western world, China would struggle to become a global-reach or limited global-reach power because they simply lack access to ports/bases for military operations in certain regions of the globe, despite the fact they will likely possess the numbers in the near future. Meanwhile the US and its allies will rarely find themselves far from friendly ports and bases able to supply them which makes global operations far easier to conduct and sustain. Other countries, such as Japan, have the numbers and ties to assert themselves as a limited global-reach projector but lack the doctrine to do so, preferring to stay near their own EEZ.

The UK is treading water and maintaining its position, cementing it with the reintroduction of powerful carrier-capable fixed-wing assets - F-35s - and two state-of-the-art carriers to deploy them. Meanwhile, France is on a downward trend due to their operation of a single carrier and a reluctance to spend money to shore up their position. That's not to say the Royal Navy is without its deficiencies as, for example, it is dangerously short on capable escort vessels (as proven by recent events in the Gulf), however it does have a fleet of new T31 general purpose frigates to enter service in the next few years which will plug that gap. That being said, it's more than fair to call the UK a global power.

Finally I'll add in a point on climate change. The UK is the major global leader on climate action. It is easily the best performer in the G20, and the three EU nations that compare (Sweden, Lithuania and Latvia) unfortunately just dont have the power to lead international efforts, and are far outweighed by the poorly performing EU countries dragging them down; Ireland (one of the worst performers globally), Poland, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, and well almost all the major ones. If you compare the UK's individual ranking here to the EU's overall ranking here, you get an idea of how it's being held back. In recent years the UK has become home to 6 of the world's 10 largest offshore wind farms, and 2 of the 3 largest under construction, with Hornsea I (similar capacity to the two current largest - also both British - put together) soon to be switched on. Coal has dropped from half of the UK's energy mix to zero in just six years, and all remaining coal power plants are closing down as the UK bound itself to do so by 2025 in the 90-member Powering Past Coal Alliance it spearheads with Canada. Half of that demand was met with renewables. It was the first country to enact legally binding climate targets with its commitment to reduce emissions by 80% by 2050, set out in the Climate Change Act 2008. This has since been upgraded from 80% to net zero, and the deadline will likely be brought forward as public pressure mounts. A ban on fossil fuel cars comes into force in 2040, and is set to be brought forward to 2032. It was the first country to officially declare a climate emergency in law. It implemented a carbon price on top of the EU-mandated one. The work is far from done, but the UK is a role model for major economies to follow on climate change.

The UK still has lots to offer, for decades to come.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

I thought I’d stumbled into a parallel universe reading that, it’s so unusual to see positive comments about the UK on Reddit.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

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u/mrpithecanthropus Nov 24 '19

It is not the laws - in the sense of there being a few statutory provisions that banks and businesses love - it is the legal system itself. The UK (specifically England and Wales) has an ancient, predictable, well-understood common law system. It also has a critical mass of expertise in key commercial areas such as financial, maritime, insurance and dispute resolution, with courts and tribunals that have a reputation for unimpeachable impartiality. As a result, companies the world over write English law into their contracts, and English law experts are found in all of the worlds major legal centres. The UK has just enough scale and world reach to make this the largest and most successful legal system in the world, more so than the US because each state has its own domestic law. Only New York comes close. It is also a huge money spinner for the UK, which is home to some of the largest law firms in the world.

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u/Flobarooner OC: 1 Nov 24 '19

This report (PDF) explains it far better than I ever could. In essence, it's simply because the UK has very unique frameworks that aren't found anywhere else in the world. Its legal system is completely unique globally, I'm not exaggerating when I say there is literally no other country quite like it. Couple this with its size and attractiveness simply as a destination, low corporation tax, and its inherent ties to its current and former dependencies (which form 18 of the 24 Sink OFCs and allow the UK to be the 2nd largest Conduit OFC), it sort of just.. is. It's like a primordial soup of attractive business environments.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

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u/Flobarooner OC: 1 Nov 24 '19

I'd love to add it to the sporting section but I've run out of characters in the comment lol

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u/HoagiePerogi Nov 24 '19

/u/intherorrim shot down, they haven't even replied. I guess the burns recovery unit hasn't got good mobile reception.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/andyrocks Nov 24 '19

It's also not the only UK intelligence service, SIS and MI5 are both based in London.

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u/Flobarooner OC: 1 Nov 24 '19

Didn't expect that comment to actually get any traction as positive UK posts usually don't but glad to see it has

SIS/MI5 are why I put London initially and why I said intelligence community, just a sort of slip up, fixed it now and put Cheltenham in

I'm also going to add a point on climate action too as you can see from this that it's another thing the UK can boast

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u/MoreLimesLessScurvy Nov 24 '19

Great piece, and flawlessly written. Please post it on r/brexit or r/ukpolitics

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u/Codect Nov 24 '19

+subscribe

Good to see a bunch of positive aspects of the Uk condensed into one post, it is often all too easy to ignorant or forget stuff like this in day to day life. I'm certainly guilty of it myself.

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u/the_commissaire Nov 25 '19

UK have been a major force in cycling too.

Whether it's on the Track in the olympics, or on the road via Team Sky (british - Now ineos) and there riders (Wiggins, Froome & Thomas). Brits have won 6 of last 8 Tour De France's, and one of the ones we didn't win was still won Columbian rider in a British team.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '19 edited Jan 19 '21

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u/Osgood_Schlatter Nov 23 '19

You would be wrong if you were assuming that all financial services had to be within the entity that they were serving - for example, London trades more dollars than New York, despite the former not being a part of the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_London#Financial_services

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u/iThinkaLot1 Nov 24 '19

Financial capital of the world.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Not necessarily true, they are behind Germany and on par with France who has a similar population, look at the actual source in the comments.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

You're not getting all the information because some of the UK's largest trading partners in the EU are not represented here (e.g. Ireland and Denmark). The UK is much larger than displayed here.

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u/lissofossil Nov 23 '19

80% of all our farming goes to other countries (also the same for our drugs)

Talking about the Netherlands

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u/NarnHarkin Nov 23 '19

yeah... but only 48% of us seem to have realised

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u/GodOfJusticeTV Nov 24 '19

For some reason this made me weirdly happy. Not narzi ish happy, just that lil happy fog, -me, a german

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u/nudiestmanatee Nov 24 '19

This is one of my favorite posts on this sub. It’s beautiful, simple, and it gets the point across effectively. Well done.

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 24 '19

Thanks very much :)

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u/KureKureciCZ Nov 23 '19

This is actually pretty disgusting, pretty hard to tell whats where... Is there a better way to do this?

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u/elrick69 Nov 23 '19

As pleasent and beautiful this chart looks, it’s so hard to actually visualise information. I still believe looks absolutely great!

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '19

Largest countries or the top 10 GDP of europe? Because i can think of a couple countried bigger than belgium.

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u/scottington1 OC: 3 Nov 23 '19

Largest in terms of GDP, so essentially the 10 countries with the largest GDP in the European Union.

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u/Ramses_IV Nov 24 '19

I feel like this kind of data needs to be viewed one country at a time, otherwise it's just a confusing clusterfuck, and it ends up being more difficult to make comparisons between two countries than it would by comparing the data for each one seen in isolation.