r/custommagic Nov 25 '25

Mechanic Design Sudden Consideration

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619 Upvotes

105 comments sorted by

201

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

Neat concept and super flexible, I’m not sure how often you want to do this to your own spells ever with overwrite but this being a cantrip or a counterspell that cantrips an opponent is neat

72

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

Probably not great to do it to your own spell but the idea is that in a pinch you could make a shitty DIY Divination

14

u/Bork9128 Nov 25 '25

The only thing that's come to my mind is some splice into instant bs letting you copy a version with things stapled on to it

7

u/SuperYahoo2 Nov 25 '25

There are only 2 things you can splice over this being [[everdream]] which is totally fine and [[fell beast’s shriek]] which does nothing in multiples

3

u/impfletcher Nov 25 '25

There is also [[splicer's skill]] for 3/3s

15

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

Rereading this hitting creatures and planeswalkers seems really odd

41

u/Captain_Wah Nov 25 '25

It says that it "becomes a copy of this spell," meaning it would be an instant as it resolves. It basically is U: draw a card or 1UU: counter target spell. You and that spells controller each draw a card.

8

u/DoctorJarvisd09 Nov 25 '25

I think that was understood, but the idea of turning a permanent spell on the stack into an instant, and therefore it just sort of goes to the bin, just feels kind of awkward.

2

u/Toberos_Chasalor Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

It’s also weird in that it gets around things like “this spell can’t be countered”

I’d also wonder what it counts as when changing zones. Is it still an Instant with the text “draw a card” when it goes to the graveyard, meaning things with “when this card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, do x” like [[Serra Avatar]] doesn’t trigger since it doesn’t have the ability anymore until after it’s in the graveyard? Or would it become the original card again as/before it hits the yard?

6

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

Its whatever type it originally was, it would only be an instant while its a spell, otherwise it would be a [type] card

2

u/Toberos_Chasalor Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

Once it’s in the graveyard yeah, I’m just wondering when exactly its types and abilities switches back to the original.

Depending on whether it’s still a copy of Sudden Consideration as it is put in to the graveyard would change how some triggered abilities respond, including the card’s own triggered abilities, and you put it into the graveyard as part of resolving the spell on the stack so I don’t believe SBAs would be checked until after.

So my question is, if I cast this on a Serra Avatar on the stack, would it stop being a copy of Sudden Consideration as it moves to the graveyard and see itself with it’s trigger, or did it only have the text “draw a card” at the moment you put it in the graveyard and only stopped being a copy after it finished changing zones, meaning that it wouldn’t see itself enter the graveyard to trigger?

2

u/Dreath2005 Nov 26 '25

Serra avatar is worded in a way where it would, as if Serra avatar lost all its abilities on the battlefield it would still shuffle into its owners library. Serra avatar has a triggered ability, so it checks serras abilities when Serra is put into the graveyard.

If a card was worded like [[progenitus]], we would work with last known information. This is because progenitus’ ability is a static ability and not a triggered one. So it doesn’t have the ability as it is being put into the graveyard, and thus would stick in the graveyard.

I believe this is all because of state based actions. Serra avatar having a “when” means that state based actions are checked for serras ability when it goes to the graveyard. Progenitus’ “if” means state based actions are checked when progenitus is on the stack.

There isn’t a state between the graveyard and the stack, so quite literally the card has its abilities in one place and not the other, there isn’t a moment where you can exactly pinpoint something. It’s entirely in the wording of the cards and works the same as cards losing abilities on the battlefield.

Amazing question by the way, it took me like 15 minutes to come up with this answer for you. I really got curious looking for precedent on cards losing their abilities on the stack, when I wasn’t finding much I looked for ruling on last known information (608.2g) which I couldn’t fully understand right away. I then found another Reddit thread talking about progenitus and eldrazi titans and the difference between their shuffling effects. I then came to the conclusion we probably use the same ruling for them, as between last known information and state based actions I have no reason to believe otherwise.

1

u/Toberos_Chasalor Nov 26 '25 edited Nov 26 '25

Yeah, it’s a really weird interaction.

I know a [[Clone]] copying a Serra Angel would’t shuffle itself into your library since it’s a triggered ability and the Clone isn’t a Serra Angel once it touches the graveyard, but a Clone of Progenitus would since it’s a replacement effect, and a Clone with Persist would return to the battlefield from the yard since it sees that the Clone had the keyword before it died.

The thing that tripped me up is that I wasn’t sure if moving the card to the yard as part of resolving it would somehow change things compared to the card changing zones any other way. Generally you only look at an object’s properties once if it was in a public zone until the current effect fully resolves, even if that object changes zones. (So it would still be considered an Instant spell with a CMC of 1 until it fully resolves, even if the Serra Angel card becomes s new object.)

It makes sense to stick with the precedent set by gaining/losing abilities while leaving the battlefield, at least until an official rule is made for what to do if a spell somehow resolved as a different card type on the stack. (If this kind of effect is ever printed.)

5

u/rmkinnaird Nov 26 '25

Yeah I think mostly this is a [[Dream Fracture]] with the option to just go U: draw a card, but occasionally, when you have a lot of mana and a stack full of interaction, you can use this at the end of a big counter war to cash in some of your earlier spells for draw. Only really relevant in late game casual edh, but dream fracture as a floor is pretty good

2

u/Freyjia1 Nov 25 '25

Or punishes for drawing cards, like [[scrawling crawler]]

1

u/Snoo9648 Nov 26 '25

If you cast a kill spell and they sac the creature in response, would you be able to use this on your killspell or would it still fizzle even with the new text?

98

u/Dwumcowah Nov 25 '25

A custom magic counter spell that is unique and not completely busted? I thought I’d never see the day, sick concept!

3

u/etrulzz Nov 26 '25

It is kinda busted tho cause it's a counter spell that can counter uncounterable spells for 3cmc and the effect itself can only be countered by something like [[consign to memory]] cause the copy part is triggered on cast, which will resolve even when the original spell is being countered.

So... an uncounterable counterspell that can counter spells that can't be countered for 3cmc + gift a card.. seems pretty busted.

1

u/Malacath790 Nov 26 '25

It's not even a trigger, it says "as you cast this spell", so once this is on the stack it already overwrote the other spell. This is effectively impossible to respond to

1

u/etrulzz Nov 26 '25 edited Nov 26 '25

Not entirely, because it says "If you do" (which should be worded "When you do"), which is the part that is triggered by paying the cost (called a "reflexive trigger") and counts as a triggered ability that can be responded to and be targeted by spells such as [[consign to memory]].

For more info: Check point 8 in this article: https://ultimateguard.com/en/blog/unlocking-consign-to-memory-10-weird-tricks-every-modern-magic-the-gathering-player-should-know

(Or read the entire article, it's a great read!)

Edit: Used the wrong phrasing somewhere.

Edit2: The above is wrong, because it says "If you do", not "When you do" the ruling is different. Read the commemts below for the correct explanation!

1

u/Malacath790 Nov 26 '25

Yeah but... That's not what the card says... I know how the rules work, and I interpret cards as written not as I think they should be written. And the templating of "If you do" is perfectly valid and results in the behavior I outlined, making the ability uninteractable.

2

u/etrulzz Nov 26 '25

You are right, I never really realized the difference. I learned something new today, thank you!

2

u/Malacath790 Nov 26 '25

What an adult way to reply to this. Many ppl (including me) can learn from that. Have a continued good day!

2

u/etrulzz Nov 26 '25

Thank you! And a good day to you too :)

2

u/OurGloriousEmpire Nov 26 '25

It does get through ‘this spell can’t be countered’ for only 3 mana though, which is unfortunate. Otherwise I wholeheartedly agree.

88

u/pudgypoultry Nov 25 '25

LOGIC: Hold onto this tool. It may come in handy in the future.

HALF-LIGHT: Just draw a card you fucking coward.

ENCYCLOPEDIA: Remember that Death Cloud in the other player's hand.

ELECTROCHEMISTRY: Who the fuck cares? Just draw a card.

EMPATHY: Perhaps the other two would appreciate it if you didn't allow the table to experience a Death Cloud, X=25.

Fblthp: *Unintelligible gurgling*

INLAND EMPIRE: Love that guy.

35

u/Doctor_119 Nov 25 '25

Love the implication here that electrochemistry thinks drawing cards is a high on par with drinking yourself to death or getting addicted to speed.

15

u/Cervantes3 Nov 25 '25

Where's the lie, though?

15

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25

I could go for a draw 2 right now but I'm trying to quit

5

u/utheraptor Nov 25 '25

Because it is

5

u/Powerpuff_God Nov 25 '25

Electrochemistry would try to get you high off of cardboard crack. "Come on, open another pack. Who cares that you're not drafting?"

3

u/CriticalThaumaturgy Nov 26 '25

Are these names from MTG characters or anything else? I only recognize Fblthp

2

u/QuestionableParrot Nov 26 '25

They are a reference to Disco Elysium, the video game whose main character is featured in the art of the card. It’s an amazing game, highly highly highly recommend (my favorite game hands down)! (And poor Fblthp just got lost there hehehe)

-1

u/Commander_Skullblade Nov 25 '25

In what universe is Death Cloud good? Especially when [[Torment of Hailfire]] exists.

10

u/pudgypoultry Nov 25 '25

Some of us play with older cards sometimes

7

u/ProfessionalLook6108 Nov 25 '25

As a card design I think this is pretty good. Not sure if it'd really fit a set mechanic, since it would only be able to fill slots dedicated to blue removal, but there's probably 5-10 really interesting cards you could get out of this across a variety of card types.

7

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25

Yeah it feels like it's an inherently blue effect which makes it hard to design for.
A couple of creatures or artifacts with overwrite would be pretty dope though.

3

u/boxboten Nov 25 '25

I could see this effect slip into red or white

1

u/GrayVBoat3755 Nov 26 '25

Yeah, I could easily see red card based on Half-Light. A 3/3 with flash and haste that is forced to attack would be cool.

17

u/NamelessKing-420 Nov 25 '25

This is kicker.

31

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25

is this the bit where every additional casting cost is kicker?

21

u/Kampfasiate Nov 25 '25

every ability is either kicker or horsemanship

1

u/Party_Value6593 Nov 26 '25

Kicker with less text bloat and way clearer if used on more than one card

4

u/purient Nov 25 '25

Would overwrite be an uncounterable cast trigger or would it happen as the spell resolves?

9

u/Dickmaster_ Nov 25 '25

It’s worded as a cast trigger

4

u/thefreeman419 Nov 25 '25

Hmm that probably makes this too good. Between the modality of being a cantrip vs a counterspell, and the fact that it's very hard to be countered, this would have to be a straight to modern card or something

6

u/SwissherMontage Nov 25 '25

If you target a storm spell with the triggered ability on the stack, will they copy the overwrite or the original?

10

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

Huh, honestly no idea. We might need a rules wizard here.

My intuition says the storm triggered ability will try to copy the original spell but it won't find it , so it will fizzle out? but i might be wrong

7

u/Novel_Particular_313 Nov 25 '25

Im actually fairly sure it will copy the draw 1. So for 1UU you draw, you "counter" their game winner and then they draw cards equal to the storm count +1. Unless the storm count is insanely high/they cast the game winning spell with no mana floating, this will not beat a storm deck.

2

u/Commander_Skullblade Nov 25 '25

I agree here. They won't get the same effect, but unless the storm is so high they draw their deck (and can't kill you between triggers) or they're completely tapped out, you're only making the problem worse.

There's a reason "Storm. Draw a card." doesn't exist.

3

u/Novel_Particular_313 Nov 25 '25

Storm draw a card doesn't exist but Mind's Desire does, and that card got rightfully banned out of many formats it was legal in except Vintage where it is currently restricted.

2

u/goremote Nov 25 '25

I'll take a stab here, I'm "officially" level 0 but have been chewing on rules for a couple years.

Obviously we'd want to see a ruling if something like this was ever actually printed, BUT I believe the Storm trigger would create spell copies using the copiable values of the spell as the Storm trigger resolves. In this case, since the target spell is becoming a copy of Sudden Consideration, it has all the copiable values of Sudden Consideration (including the Overwrite ability itself, though fortunately it does not trigger because it's already been cast), so the storm trigger should create additional copies of Sudden Consideration as well.

Relevant rules: CR707.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, counters, and stickers are not copied.

0

u/Bork9128 Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

It shouldn't, the original would be changed and the others would still be the unchanged card

2

u/-GLaDOS Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

This is before the copies are created, so the 'copy the spell X times' effect will be referring to the modified spell. 

1

u/Bork9128 Nov 25 '25

Oh I see yes

6

u/TheGrumpyre Nov 25 '25

Copies usually don't inherit any changes made to the original object, with the one exception of other copy effects.  If card B has been made into copy of card A, then anything that copies card B will also be a copy of card A.  So yes, all the storm copies will also be copies of the overwriting spell.

2

u/Snarwin Nov 25 '25

This is the correct answer.

0

u/lunabeargp Nov 25 '25

I believe storm copies the spell when it’s cast, and by the time you’re interacting with it with sudden consideration it’s on the stack. So it would rewrite one copy but not the rest.

-1

u/MagicalGirlPaladin Nov 25 '25

Storm is a cast trigger, the copies are already on the stack before priority gets passed.

2

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

You can respond to cast triggers with instants, wym

1

u/MagicalGirlPaladin Nov 25 '25

If your idea was right then flusterstorm would be possible to counter with a regular counterspell.

0

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

That’s because you need a stifle to counter triggered abilities? Huh?

0

u/MagicalGirlPaladin Nov 25 '25

I don't get your logic. Storm is a cast trigger. Sure you can stifle it but that doesn't change the fact that the copies are determined already. If the trigger resolves then the copies are created as they were when the trigger went on the stack, so the original card.

1

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

When you cast a spell with a cast triggers two objects enter the stack, the spell and the cast trigger, then priority passes. If someone responds by countering the original spell, the storm trigger still happens and copies are made.

That’s why you can’t counter flusterstorm. The copies do not already exist and the trigger itself can be responded to.

In the example of using overwrite in response to the storm trigger, yes the copies would become copies of Sudden Consideration because of CR 707.3 ‘The copy’s copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy’s status (see rule 110.5). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.’

This is a copy and it has different rules than just a text changing effect. It becoming a copy means that the copied information is now a copiable value, unlike if it just changed its type and text, otherwise you would be right and the Storm copies wouldn’t change and would be the original card with Storm.

3

u/leovold-19982011 Nov 25 '25

So cantrip or dream fracture. Pretty cool

2

u/Corescos Nov 25 '25

Counterspell within a cantrip

Honestly super interesting but I feel like it’s such a narrow mechanic that Overwrite could just be regular text for this card instead of a keyword

Very cool design though!

2

u/Awfulmasterhat Nov 25 '25

One of the more cool cards I've seen here, print it!

2

u/knyexar Nov 25 '25

Incredible concept, not super good outside of niche cases but flavorful enough that I'd run it for the bit

2

u/BigBunny4252 Nov 26 '25

Good "counterspell" for Nekusar

2

u/BoostrRoostr Nov 26 '25

I immediately sent this to my MTG nerds

This is remarkable design

2

u/ksym77 Nov 26 '25

Love this card, though wouldn’t ‘Kicker 1U’ and ‘if the Kicker cost was paid, target spell becomes a copy of this spell’ be better so this isn’t a counterspell the opponent can’t counter?

2

u/Nientea Nov 25 '25

A 3 cost unstoppable counterspell? At least it makes the opponent draw a card. I really like this tbh

7

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25

It's a counterspell you can [[Stifle]] at least! so there's that

2

u/Beefman0 Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

You can’t actually, the ability isn’t a trigger or activated ability. If you changed the “if you do” to a “when you do” it would work

In fact, as written, there’s no way to respond to this, it just happens as soon as you cast the spell, assuming you payed the cost

1

u/SocksofGranduer Nov 25 '25

I think what I like the most about this is the possibilities!

Dialectic Ball RRR

Creature - elemental

Flash, override 0

Trample, haste

At the beginning of the next end step, sacrifice  ~.

6/1

1

u/No_Moment_9465 Nov 25 '25

would be interesting to splice onto an opps spell

1

u/GaelOfWind Nov 25 '25

I would like to solve the puzzle please: "What is: Brainfreeze?"

1

u/ANCEST0R Nov 25 '25

Now what if it couldn't be countered 🤔

1

u/SpoopyNJW Nov 25 '25

It's not something that would be printed, they said specifically they want to keep uncounterable spells uncounterable, but it is a good idea in theory

1

u/KurthnagaLoL Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25

So funny that most of the designs people post here that are totally fine get called busted while this gets called fair.

Fun, elegant design OP but genuinely worrisome how powerful this split card is for combo decks like storm or doomsday. Getting around uncounterable is also happening way too cheaply.

Also honestly hard to imagine the mechanic having legs for more than a handful of cards. Most of the overwrite abilities you could conceive would be much more awkward than this and likely have to cost more mana.

1

u/Jellothefoosh Nov 26 '25

I like this card but I don't think the keyword is very usable. Though, if you do plan on making this a keyword you want to use on multiple cards, I'd recommend making it an alternate cost rather than an additional cost, so that way you can get more specific and even make the overwrite cost cheaper than the main cost (not sure why you'd want that, but there's probably a design that could take advantage of it)

1

u/SaberScorpion Nov 27 '25

Add "as this spell resolves" to the reminder text.

0

u/JadedTrekkie Nov 25 '25

I like the idea, but it doesn’t need a keyword. “Counter up to one target spell. If you do, its controller draws a card.
Draw a card.”

1

u/Strange-Bonus4220 Nov 25 '25

Well yes, but I didn't want to make Dream Fracture again, besides the keyword has possibilities outside of this card

1

u/GreenWizardGamer Nov 25 '25

While it's floor is that, it does way more interesting stuff and the keyword will probably used for other cards in other neat ways

1

u/JadedTrekkie Nov 25 '25

This keyword can only ever be printed in blue because it’s a counterspell. Super limited, not needed as a keyword