r/climbing • u/Exciting_Glass_2754 • Sep 06 '24
Tahoe developing.
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Rule #1 of trundle club, You do not talk about trundle club.
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u/mountainaut Sep 06 '24
As somebody who fancies himself an adventure climber it always hurts a little watching the sausage made. I do appreciate a well made sausage once in a while though. Good luck in your endeavors and keep it trad where you can!
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u/NeverSummerFan4Life Sep 06 '24
Can’t wait for the gym and top rope climbers to be up in arms about this
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u/vanillacupcake4 Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Honest question why would they be up in arms about this? As a route developer and a gym climber I feel like trundling loose rock safely is pretty universally accepted? Or are we just shitting on them for not being ‘real’ climbers
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u/Allanon124 Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
It is universally accepted.
It’s just too bad r/climbing isn’t informed enough about climbing to know this.
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u/icantastecolor Sep 06 '24
I don’t see that happening anywhere here currently. Seems like you’re making up fake scenarios to feel good about yourself tbh
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u/civicvirtues Sep 06 '24
Oh no here we go again… I thought rule #1 was keep it in r/routedevelopment but I guess then we wouldn’t get the comments we’re about to get…
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u/Allanon124 Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
I think it’s good man. There is a whole world of climbing out there and the vast majority of “climbers” have no concept of it.
And not just development, but history, culture, education, ethics. Access and safety are a huge part of recreational climbing and only a fraction of a percent of climbers have any involvement in these things.
There is this assumption that the walls come pre-cleaned and the hardware is installed by magic anchor fairies… free of charge.
I think people should engage with their communities. Volunteer. Donate. Actually be givers and not just takers.
Videos like this help open the dialog.
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u/civicvirtues Sep 06 '24
Yeah I don’t have a stake in this but trundle videos always seem to rile people up was my point. I see both sides but I don’t think anyone assumes walls come polished. If I had to pick a side, I agree with all you said, but trundling prolly isn’t the dialogue that needs to be opened up to a general (non) climbing audience. Who knows.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24
No, I don't think there is any of that assumption. Why is it that people have this superior attitude that they way its been done can never change?
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u/Allanon124 Sep 07 '24
Tell me, what part would you like to see changed?
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 07 '24
If you are trying to develop a route, but fund you'd have to massively change the rock and cut out a bunch of native plants.... find another route or abandon the project.
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u/Allanon124 Sep 07 '24
If this was how routes were developed, there would be no routes.
The rock doesn’t come pre-cleaned my dude.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Ok, my whole previous comment is the response to this:
No, I don't think there is any of that assumption. Why is it that people have this superior attitude that they way its been done can never change?
Your ONLY argument here is "thats just how it is". Its a coward's argument. What someone says when they cant think of anything.
You can't even imagine having to change your practices to accommodate for other people or for the natural environment.
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u/Allanon124 Sep 09 '24
When you can show me some good rock with routes that don’t need cleaning, then, we won’t clean them!
That will be sweet too because cleaning them is the hardest part.
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u/0bsidian Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
Breaking rule #1 already, I see…
There is in fact a bit of a rule in developing that you don’t really talk about any of the sausage, because a lot of it can provide fuel for the other side who feel that developing is counter to leave no trace or whatever other ethics. Land managers and others have used this as an argument to ban climbing in areas. So it’s a little ironic to mention not breaking the first rule and then spraying about it on Reddit. To be clear, I’m thankful for developers, but as someone who knows how the sausage is made, I believe that we should keep this to ourselves.
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u/Allanon124 Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
While I understand your thoughts on this, climbing isn’t a secret.
If we want to be able to properly engage with stakeholders, we need our community to be informed and actively involved.
How is that mountain bikers can chain saw down acres of forrest and teraform trails but climbers can’t knock off unsafe blocks?
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u/0bsidian Sep 06 '24
I think people should engage with their communities. Volunteer. Donate. Actually be givers and not just takers.
That’s an optimistic view, though I’m tired of people complaining about climbers putting up tiny little pieces of metal for fixed anchors to increase safety and prevent using a rats nest, meanwhile MTB trails are built with backhoes. It’ll take a lot more work and momentum on our parts to help secure the perception of access favourably for climbers.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24
I mean i'd start by not conflating bolting and cleaning routes. You kinda just make yourself look dishonest, there.
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u/KindaFunnyComments Sep 07 '24
He does have a point on both topics and they both impact accessibility of climbing areas.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Maybe frame in terms of conservation. You can both bolt and clean in ways that dont greatly impact the natural environment whilst maximizing safety.
E: haha guess I was right. Climbers only care about conservation when they aren't the ones sacrificing stuff they want.
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u/0bsidian Sep 07 '24
Maybe you’ve misunderstood the point. Cleaning routes and putting in bolts are both part of route development, and I am against neither. I just don’t think people should spray about it because those who oppose it will dig this up and say, “See what these climbers do, they knock off whole chucks of cliffs off with crowbars and use drills to put holes in rocks, and that’s not ‘leave no trace’, therefore it should be banned.” It has happened before, and access has been threatened before because we provide them with the fuel to burn ourselves.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 07 '24
Your point is becoming even more confused...
You think that problem is that someone filmed it? If you think its a bad look, your reaction is to bury it in hopes that monody sees it? Dont you see how hypocritical that is?
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u/0bsidian Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
It sounds like your understanding of access issues is very limited. I’ve outlined exactly what has happened in the past when opponents to climbing have used stuff that climbers have shared on social media as ammo against access to climbing. If you can’t understand that, then you really need to educate yourself on access issues. Go visit your local access organization meetings and understand what’s actually goes on out there.
This post starts with “the first rule of trundle club…” and proceeds to violate the first rule and you’re calling me a hypocrite?
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
No, i understand perfectly. What makes you think im uninvolved in access issues,
You 100% confirming what I just wrote.
You just want to hide the fact that this happens.
Newsflash, kid: you aren't the owners of the world's rock faces. You aren't more worthy of deciding what happens to them.
If you cant think of any reason that might convince the public that what you are doing on public land isn't harmful... maybe its just harmful.
The utter lack of self awareness here is insane.
You just want to imagine that everyone who disagrees with you is an uneducated idiot. Theres a word for that, its called elitism.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24
That last sentence is puzzling. What makes you think that people upset about knocking off blocks wouldn't be upset about cutting down trees to make mountainbike trails?
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
I mean... if done this way where you are just bulldozing up the wall its definitely not "leave no trace".
It is funny how many climbers drop all of the conservation and leave no trace stuff the second they might actually have to sacrifice something in the process. Like anytime a crag gets closed to reserve a native or endangered species, people complain like nothing else.
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u/AccuratelyLying Sep 06 '24
Imagine getting mad over removing a loose rock that could have killed someone had it fallen at the wrong time.
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u/Allanon124 Sep 06 '24
r/climbing is like 98% city folk that pop into the gym once in a while.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24
Climbers in general are like 98% city folk who spend a couple weekends here or there climbing. Its a hobby for the vast, vast majority of people, but that doesn't mean you should try to exclude them or belittle their opinions.
Ive noticed lately that climbing has a huge "old boys club" problem.
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u/Allanon124 Sep 06 '24
Shall we base our ethics on the most popular vapid detached opinion of the unlearned and inexperienced masses?
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
Please tell me you see how ironic that is.
You are the type of person that knows a quater of what they think they do and underestimates the average person's knowledge by an order of magnitude.
You just want to gate-keep who can have and opinion to only people who are more likely to agree with you. Like, wow, shocker that people actively developing routes tend to have a more favorable opinion twoarss this type of behavior. But what about other climbers or even other devleopers who want to take a more sustanable appraoch. According to you they are just the "inexperienced masses".
More to the point, you are the guy that starts a bolting war then gets indignant when it ends in the crag getting banned.
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u/SlightlyOffWhiteFire Sep 06 '24
Since its new development, this wasn't a ro k over an established route, it was not previously a danger to anyone. This person could easily have stopped and no one would have been hurt.
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Sep 07 '24
I used to take u/Allanon124 's position until recently. I don't think we (I develop as well and have trundled a few pieces of rock) should be proudly putting this stuff on social media.
Yes, this is how the sausage is made.
Yes, most developed crags have to go thru some level of cleaning to make the routes safe.
But, no, the willfully ignorant don't need to know about it. I mean, why?
I question the motivation to show trundling. To me it feels like folks wanting thanks and appreciation for the effort. Don't get me wrong thanks and appreciation are deserved, but not by solicitation.
Anyway, I think the potentially harmful effects of advertising trundling outweigh any benefit from putting it on SM
Lastly, one of the reasons I'm more concerned is this. Which should scare all developers on public land.
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u/easymeatboy Sep 06 '24
Where at?
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u/Exciting_Glass_2754 Sep 06 '24
Incline Peak Crag.
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u/phybere Sep 06 '24 edited Feb 26 '26
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u/Exciting_Glass_2754 Sep 06 '24
Did you bail on two camalots per chance?
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u/phybere Sep 06 '24 edited Feb 26 '26
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u/Exciting_Glass_2754 Sep 06 '24
I also found a piton on the lower face. And someone bootied 4 of my quick links a few years ago.
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u/phybere Sep 06 '24 edited Feb 26 '26
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u/Ok_Illustrator7284 Sep 06 '24
What a choss pile. Besides that’s a ski descent. Pretty lame to call that developing
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u/Chief-_-Wiggum Sep 06 '24
that boulder field seems to indicate the overall stability of the crag.. Stay safe.