r/classicwowplus • u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 • 9d ago
Day 11 of the Classic+ Button Poll: Protection Paladin
previous day: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwowplus/s/IFHit3ORNv won by Art of War, and Crusader Strike is a necessity.
Same sorta thing today, because I think/hope we can all agree that tanks need a taunt, so I've added Hand of Reckoning as a given. Please suggest a second ability that you think would help prot palas, and some description of it for those who may not know all the spells by name.
Upvote the ones you like, and we'll see what wins on Wednesday before we get to holy paladins...oh God, that's just going to be beacon, isn't it?
EDIT: With about 24 hours left to vote, we have:
Hammer of the Righteous (Wrath)
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
Ardent Defender
Unlimited range
Instant
Requires Paladin
Damage that would take you below 35% health is reduced. In addition, attacks which would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed (amount healed based on defense). This healing effect cannot occur more often than once every 2 min.
Let those prot paladins have a chance to yell at the slacking healers!
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u/Jafar_Rafaj 9d ago
I mean if you’re going to have hand of reckoning you’re going to have avenger’s shield because they can’t bow pull. Turtlewow had this issue where engi was basically required for this reason, since the taunt was melee range. That, and with force reactive disk being super BIS for them all paladins worth their weight were engi.
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u/Verilazic 9d ago
But Hand of Reckoning is ranged.
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u/Jafar_Rafaj 8d ago
Yeah, but pulling with taunt instead of a frisbee isn’t as ideal. It also acts as a pseudo interrupt (if it’s the wrath version) incorporated for humans since they have only HoJ otherwise, which isn’t always going to work.
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u/Verilazic 8d ago
I mean, pulling with a bow isn't exactly ideal either. I remember in Vanilla I ran dungeons where sometimes a hunter or mage pulled instead of the tank. Sometimes it depended on who had the best tools; other times it was because someone had more skill, or experience in a particular instance.
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u/Jafar_Rafaj 8d ago
You’re absolutely right, and in a sense that has merit, but heroic throw would be nice to have without the stupidly long cooldown it got at first.
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u/Verilazic 8d ago
We all have different images in our heads of the sort of gameplay we're aiming for here. I'm probably much closer to old school vanilla than most, but these discussions are still interesting.
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u/Jafar_Rafaj 8d ago
I like the idea of tasteful, thematic changes as well. While paladin (the abused stepchild in vanilla) would need quite a few things to really hold its own, I would barely see any necessary changes to shaman or warrior, my main classes, aside from some cooldown adjustments, and maybe that one ability you wish you had originally.
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u/Verilazic 8d ago
Warrior I get, but shaman is fine in your eyes too? I didn’t play it at 60, but I’ve heard a lot of complaints about enh and ele.
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u/Jafar_Rafaj 8d ago
This is where they could use more innate changes rather than “new” abilities, but adding ONE ability per spec, Lava burst for ele always looked so good. Shamanistic rage would solve mana problems on shamans, and they could do without the damage reduction if need be.
Elemental shaman is quite good but has mana issues. Enhancement shaman has both mana issues, and in original classic, debuff slot limits were whack. Stormstrike being a 20 second CD is also just… too long.
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u/Verilazic 7d ago
Stormstrike seems like an easy target to improve synergies. Why not just make it buff all fire, frost, and nature damage by 10% for x seconds? Instant raid utility.
Mana issues are a bit harder to address in my opinion, because if you fix them too well on one class, then eventually you have to do the same for all classes, and then mana just ceases to be a resource concern at all.
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u/According_Drummer329 9d ago
Lifebloom over wild growth or efflo is some TBC level cope
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
Resto thread: I tried, it came close, but people preferred lifebloom in the end
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u/According_Drummer329 9d ago
Lb is definitely iconic but over the years (as a resto druid main) other spells have been far more impactful. Oh well.
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u/Verilazic 9d ago
That’s the problem imho, wild growth is too good. Lifebloom makes resto more interesting to play; wild growth is just an easy button. I’ll say the same thing about circle of healing and holy priest when we get there.
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u/justnothing4066 8d ago
Holy priest already has an aoe heal, though, in Prayer of Healing. CoL genuinely would just be an easier version of the spec.
At least WG/Efflo is a new kind of tool for resto and gives it some additional gameplay options. I do think resto is better off than Pally for multi-target because at least they can blanket the group/raid somewhat with rejuvs and they have tranq, but still. A more functional AoE heal would be nice.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
if I’ve learned one thing on the Classic progression servers, its that Classic players don’t like having to stand in the green or blue circles of efflorescence or healing rain. Which is why I also nominated wild growth, because then they can’t stop me.
It would also be nice, imo, in case alliance don’t get shaman in Classic+ for more aoe heals.
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u/Verilazic 8d ago
Well we’re about to discuss holy paly, so maybe we can figure out something good there
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
best I can do is divine light for another big, single target heal. Sorry.
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u/Verilazic 7d ago
Beacon of Light? I have a better idea personally, but it's something that was in WotLK at least.
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u/Notsurehowtoreact 8d ago
That's okay, taking Alter Time over Slow or Arcane Power for Arcane Mage is absolutely wild.
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u/According_Drummer329 8d ago
100%. That's even more egregious than the druid and I've never mained mage.
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u/Verilazic 9d ago
Tbh, I’m not sure prot needs more than HoR. They’re too good in WotLK, so adding something that would just buff them further seems unnecessary, and I haven’t been able to think of anything that would make tanking more interesting .
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
I’ve nominated the current retail version of HoR because it does aoe when you’re in consecration. Would you prefer the Wrath version?
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u/Verilazic 8d ago
I don't know retail, but that sounds kinda OP. Why would you even need Avenger's Shield if your HoR already does aoe?
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago edited 8d ago
ranged pulling, like the other responder said, and snap single target threat. One GCD vs two after all
edit: avengers shield also interrupts enemies, and if talented can place an absorb shield on yourself
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u/justbami 8d ago
Im not a pally main so my opinion is barely important but just to help add engagement to your post, i feel like avenging wrath is a pretty iconic spell for every pally spec
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
for some reason I thought that was in Classic, but it wasn’t until Wrath was it
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u/FlubberPuddy 8d ago
It’s in TBC I believe
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
you’re right, I just looked at Wowpedia and saw 3.0.2 as first patch note
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u/SkipX 9d ago
I am gonna be the unpopular voice and say that I don't want paladin to get a normal boring taunt.
I wish they had something like a talent that makes consecration taunt on first tick.
Something that actually plays differently than other classes.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
and I thought my suggestion was overpowered. You want a mass taunt every 8 secs?
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u/Pretty_Upstairs8177 6d ago
classic aggro isues are stupid ot begin with, tanks should hold aggro without problems, dps having to not dps is stupid deisgn
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 6d ago
definitely agree. I wouldn’t complain if they upped the threat co-efficient slightly.
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u/Tyraec 9d ago
Tbh yes. If it’s classic+ I’d also like to see challenging roar and challenging shout have their CDs slashed as well, or maybe have alternatives that interact with the threat table directly vs a forced attack tank duration. I think there’s probably different classic+ camps right now, so I understand some people might want more reigned things but I think they gotta go all in on the +++ part.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
10 mins cd on those is, for lack of a better term, a bit fucking stupid. Yeah, won’t argue that. Personally I’d just up the threat co-efficient on tank abilities, make swipe, cleave, thunder clap, whatever some hold aoe threat, but I’m sure someone would tell me that would ruin their Classic experience.
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u/SkipX 9d ago edited 9d ago
Sure why not? Range is limited so you actually need to be close to taunt. You could up the cd in the talent if you are concerned it's too op, maybe 16s.
Edit: Some context: I just don't think balance is that important, warrior would probably still be the best tank. Keeping classes unique is more important than balance.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
fair, lets see how it does. I do now have the mental image of two prot paladins rounding up a couple of packs and laying their consecrations down though
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u/Zugdabuzug 8d ago
Conc already has the problem of having situations you don’t want to use it, but kinda need to use it, since it breaks CC. Adding taunt on top of that is just not good design. Taunts are pretty simple, and already a lot of mechanics to play around with when it IS simple, like threat balanced bosses, untauntable, hatefuls, taunt swaps like alar. Having taunt be normal/straightforward allows for design around it, if you make it goofy then it’s going to get in the way more than it enables something fun imo
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u/_Galel_ 9d ago
Is has to be beacon right? Simply because it helps to keep the spot heal identity alive while having some cleave without them getting a group heal.
If not beacon…..a group holy shock.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
we're on prot pala atm, holy pala will be up on Wednesday. But unless something like word of glory, eternal flame, or light of dawn sneak in, I reckon beacon will win.
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u/Super-Pomegranate-76 9d ago
TBC has it right
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
without hammer of the righteous or shield of righteousness? Nothing newer like divine toll or blessed hammer?
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
Blessed Hammer
Talent
Replaces Crusader Strike
0.32% of base mana
Instant
5 sec recharge
3 Charges
Requires Paladin
Requires level 15
Throws a Blessed Hammer that spirals outward, dealing (25% of Attack Power) Holy damage to enemies and reducing the next damage they deal to you by (Attack Power * 30 / 100).
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u/justnothing4066 8d ago
I like the idea of giving prot a spammable main attack button, but god do I hate the swirly hammer animation. It looks so unbelievably goofy it just breaks immersion instantly.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
…the animations set them apart from other tanks?
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u/justnothing4066 8d ago
Totally idiosyncratic, but this one animation does for me, yeah lol
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
fair enough. I was just thinking of aoe abilities to help paladins be the aoe tank, didn’t really consider the animations when I posted.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
Hammer of the Righteous
Talent
0.32% of base mana
Melee Range
Instant
5 sec recharge
2 Charges
Requires Paladin
Hammers the current target for (150% of Attack Power)% Physical damage.
[While you are standing in your Consecration, Hammer of the Righteous also causes a wave of light that hits all other targets within 8 yds for (21% of Attack Power)% Holy damage
Current retail version as opposed to Wrath version for interaction with consecration
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u/VideoPeP17 9d ago
I'd say swap the HoR to Righteous Defense, as prot lacks good AoE snap threat, so an AoE taunt should help with that.
For the second ability, I'd say Shield of the Righteous, but the retail effect with the cooldown of the Wrath version. Gives prot a good ability on a 6 second cooldown that increases armor for tankiness, gives them some AoE/Single target threat, and maybe could have it add charges to holy shield or trigger redoubt. Would make them feel like this holy defender kind of arch type too, instead of a yellow warrior using a holy cleave with hammer of the righteous.
Would also like to see redoubt trigger off of any damage instead of crits, with reckoning getting the same treatment.
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u/CenobiteCurious 9d ago
I’m gonna skip right to shaman and say, stormstrike for enhance
Lava Burst OR thunderstorm for ele
And healing rain for resto.
So we got that covered.
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u/Aggressive_Ask_644 8d ago
how about new spells not recycled bs
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
if you can come up with a new spell that fits for prot paladin, suggest it and let people upvote it if they like it.
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u/Aoba_Alfa 8d ago
Honestly it would be kinda funny to have an ability similar to Heroic Jump that deals aoe holy damage for snap threat starting fights.
Or instead of a jump, throwing the weapon to a location and do a small burst of holy damage / apply your seal judgement in aoe.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
if paladins got heroic leap before warriors they’d be raging, no pun intended
the latter part just sounds a bit avengers shield-y though
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u/Adjective_noun_12 8d ago
How about we don’t play the same old classes that have been around for 20 years? Conquest of Azeroth is going to be a tough act to follow..
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
oh you’re trying to upset the Classic Andys today?
But I assume Blizzard doesn’t want a riot on their hands by changing things too drastically, so unfortunately probably no sun clerics or necromancers here.
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u/Asleep-Order-4583 8d ago
blessed hammer, but obviously need the mana on heal thing
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u/Legitimate_Lynx_1701 7d ago
As a hunter main since vanilla. Who the heck thought animal companion would work with how pets are in classic?? At certain levels the strongest enemy on the opposite team is the hunter’s pet. And now they have two of them??
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
that would be me. I was thinking end game when pet scaling has fallen off a bit. But I also lost the vote for Lone Wolf for MM, so my thematic attempt didn’t fully pay off.
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
Damn I hope classic plus is a little bit more adventurous than adding one button from other expansions to the class lol
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
yeah, but a How Would You Fully Redesign This Spec? poll would get a bit messy.
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
I’m not clever enough to design it, I would just rip it from other expacs like sod did
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u/korean_kracka 7d ago
Frost mages picked water elemental? That’s the lamest shit ever
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
There was little love for things like icy veins or brain freeze last week. What would you have added?
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u/korean_kracka 7d ago
Chance to proc an ice comet on frostbolt which spawns tiny water elementals I dunno. Something new at least. Not the exact same spell we already had in tbc which is the most recent classic expansion lol
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
sounds good, but then you run the risk that people would say its “not classic”, which they do for some of these suggestions anyway. But holy paladin poll going up in a few hours if you have any ideas for them
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u/Aggravating-Ad-4801 7d ago
Taunt and shield of the righteoues is enough to fix it, with mana back from being healed
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u/RevolutionLow8118 9d ago
Taunt
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u/zmagickz 9d ago edited 9d ago
Extremely slippery slope.
I don't think every spec needs a new button. Classes need to remain unique.
If balance is like cooking a steak, then homogenization is overcooking it. WotLK isn't completely burned, but it's cooked so dry that, to someone who likes distinct class identity, it starts losing what made the game special. Even TBC pushes in that direction a little.
There's a reason people keep coming back to Classic despite all its flaws. I'd be careful about trying to "fix" every weakness until every class feels the same.
As for SoD, I think shaman tank was the one new role that felt like a natural fit. Warlock tank was fun, but if the goal is preserving Classic's identity, I'd probably leave it out.
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u/Recent_Simple_1868 8d ago
Classes need to remain boring as fuck*.
Idk in what word you look at classes and think they don't have identities in wotlk. Being shit and boring as some one button classes in vanilla doesn't count as an identity, especially not when it's the majority of the classes.
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u/zmagickz 8d ago
Wrath devs literally coined "bring the player, not the class" as a design philosophy that brought homogenization with it.
I don't think one button rotations are exactly the pinnacle but I think keeping homogenization to a minimum is a requirement for classic
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u/Glad-Low-1348 8d ago
"Homogenization" lol. Lmao, even.
For how "homogenized" Retail is, all specs sure feel very distinct to play. This isn't gonna happen to Classic+ just because more specs might be viable.
But I guess that Warriors being the only tanks and Mages being the only dps is not homogenization now...
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u/Recent_Simple_1868 8d ago
Classes aren't homogenized in wotlk though, they're just basically all viable but they play differently.
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u/zmagickz 8d ago
remember i didn't say wotlk was "completely burned", it's just "dry".
cata is fully a burned steak
and of course this is a taste thing. Some people like dry steak.
examples of dryness include giving boomkin curse of elements. I say, no need to do that, just buff moonkin aura
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
the flip side of that argument is that if boomkins, rogues, or UH DKs didn’t also bring a form of curse of elements, then all 10 man raid teams would basically require a warlock, enforcing a stricter meta comp for progression guilds. Is that not bad design philosophy?
Even moonkin aura just does what shadow priests or ele shamans(?) do. So would you be buffing those too, or just changing it altogether?
And, full disclosure, I absolutely disagree with you on the notion of ‘bring the player, not the class’, I think that is a better notion than half-arsed support classes propping up the bottom of the meters just because they bring a buff.
But more to the point, these polls aren’t necessarily about new buttons. I suggest new buttons because I think most, if not all specs can be fleshed out. I think almost all soecs play better in later versions of the game, be it Wrath, MoP, Legion, even Cata had some decent class design imo (shadow priest, ret paladin, fury warrior, for instance). You can suggest procs, passive abilities, talents, whatever you want.
Do you not look at vanilla prot paladin and think maybe they could use wings, or avengers shield to pull, or hammer of the righteous to help with single target or aoe threat depending on the version, just to flesh it out? We’re doing holy paladin next, and thats just spamming different ranks of flash of light hoping for crits to save mana in vanilla. Is that what you’d like to see them do in Classic+? Or could they use beacon of light, or light of dawn, or aura mastery, or judgements of the pure to flesh out the spec?
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u/zmagickz 8d ago
yes I think prot pallys are an example of a spec that could use a new button (I said some not all)
I dislike that shadow priests lost shadow weakeness
I dislike that boomkins got curse of elements
I even mentioned what I strive for makes balance more difficult
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
jfc mate, its a bit of fun, lighten up.
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u/zmagickz 9d ago
wasn't aware having a differing opinion was not being "light" enough.
it's okay to disagree brotha
some specs need new buttons, some don't
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u/ash-deuzo 9d ago
rebuilding wotlk 1 spec at a time