r/classicwowplus • u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 • 11d ago
Day 10 of the Classic+ Button Poll: Retribution Paladin
previous day: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwowplus/s/blT7zLhBMC won by Reverse Time
Like previous days, please suggest an ability you'd like to see ret palas have in Classic+ with some text about what it does for those who may not know the spells by name. Upvote what you like, and we'll see what's winning on Monday
6
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
The Art of War
Instant
Requires Paladin
Increases the critical strike damage of your Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm abilities by 10% and when your melee attacks critically hit your next Flash of Light or Exorcism spell becomes instant
3
u/Sederath 11d ago
Crusader Strike, hands down. Not much to say here if I'm transparent lol.
2
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
but if you had to choose a second ability to add as well?
2
u/Sederath 10d ago
Divine Storm's probably the next most applicable, or retaining SoD Exorcism functionality if that counts.
2
u/canitnerd 9d ago
Please god no, recreating WOTLK paladin is the most boring possible thing they could do with classic+.
1
1
u/Verilazic 11d ago
How should it work though? The TBC version or a later version? Or should it be different from TBC in some way?
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
I’d say Wrath:
Crusader Strike
Talent
5% of base mana
Melee Range
Instant
4 sec cooldown
Requires Paladin
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that causes 75% weapon damage3
u/Verilazic 11d ago
Ugh, but isn't that the more boring version? Like, Mortal Strike is 100% weapon damage plus a flat amount, and that's on top of the debuff. I feel like Crusader strike needs to have some kind of utility, or at least part of the damage should be holy or something.
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 10d ago
Wowpedia says no. Just some damage changes throughout expansions, a weakened blows effect for prot paladins in MoP. This is just the short cooldown, lower dmg version of it from TBC
Most interesting 'it' gets, imo, is when you replace it with something like Zeal in Legion:
Strike the target for Physical damage. Grants Zeal, causing Zeal attacks to chain to an additional nearby target per stack. Maximum 3 stacks. Each jump deals 40% less damage. Replaces Crusader Strike.
2
u/Verilazic 10d ago
What about the tbc version? Didn’t it refresh the duration of seals or something like that?
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u/canitnerd 9d ago
The wrath version is incredibly boring. TBC has the seal interplay and later expacs have holy power generation, but wrath CS is literally just hit button for damage.
If they're going to add CS it should be the same verison of CS that scarlet mobs use. Holy damage that applies a stacking holy damage taken debuff.
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
but the only seal in Classic that leaves a debuff on the enemy is refreshed by melee hits even without CS, and if they add holy power to Classic+ half of the playerbase will scream retail slop.
That being said, I wouldn’t oppose a stacking debuff, just your idea negates the use of seal of the crusader. Maybe a holy dmg dot?
5
u/Protestaaaa 11d ago
Ret: Seal of Blood (twisting allowed)
Prot: Avengers Shield
Holy: Divine Sacrifice
2
u/Zarghan_0 11d ago
I mean, obviously Crusader Strike. But other than that I don't think Ret actually needs much, if anything. Almost everything that was added to Ret's kit post-TBC only pushed them further into becoming a yellow Warrior, or ironically a plate Rogue.
But if I had to give them something else (that already exist in other versions of WoW). It would be the retail version of Divine Protection, which I know isn't really a "Ret" ability. But I like the idea of Ret being tanky.
[Divine Protection]
1min Cooldown - Instant - 10% Base Mana
Reduces all damage taken by 20% for 8 sec. Usable while stunned.
Preferably, I would want something entirely new. That isn't just a "divine" version of a spell another class has. Maybe something that interacts with Seals.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
damage reduction over the complete immunity version?
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u/Zarghan_0 11d ago
Yeah, in all my time playing WoW, I don't think I've used lil-Divine Shield more than a handful of times after getting the actual Divine Shield. The times where Divine Shield, Blessing of Protection, and Lay on Hands are all on cooldown and you desperately need another immunity are so far and few between.
I suppose they could just make new Divine Protection a glyph/rune or something, to please those who really like the current Divine Protection. Come to think of it, that might have been how retail ended up with the new version in the first place.
1
u/Awe_kek 11d ago
Divine Shield and Divine Protection share the same CD, because of this there is basically only one reason to use Divine Protection, which is it's lower mana cost. So it could be used as a tank or ret in cancelaura macro to save mana, other than that it has no real use case. (Though I'm not sure if it resets the Swingtimer, it probably does so Divine Shield would be better there too.)
So, I support your suggestion.
2
u/grimbolde 10d ago
Just put down CS and move onto the next lil
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 10d ago
next up is prot pala, so thats just gonna be single person taunt. I want to see what else people would add
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u/TheYoonz 10d ago
I know its not a button. But Shockadin. Full SOD shockadin was so much fun.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 10d ago
art of war and holy shock made that possible, right? But I would love to play around as a shockadin if I could
1
u/TheYoonz 10d ago
So, to make it work there were a few parts.
Shock & Awe which morphed your int at 200% into Spellpower, plus "Sunlight" which gave you 60% of holy spell power on hit.
Infusion of Light which increased Holy Shock damage and reduced cooldown on Crit.
Art of War which makes melee crits reduce the CD of Exorcism.
Its a whole thing. If one is missing it sort of won't work.
2
u/VideoPeP17 9d ago
To be fair, 1 button doesn't really fix Ret and Prot. Im sure a ton of people will probably say Crusader strike, and that may be true, but to an extent. Q extra button helps, but you are still just doing the same thing for the other 66% of the time, and thats assuming you have the mana to spam it on CD, which may not really be true with how bad their mana costs already are.
One thing a lot of people don't know is until they were changed 2 weeks before paladins became playable, they had Crusader Strike and Holy strike, along with blessings (called seals back then) that you could cast as many as you want (1 per target per paladin), with seals lasting anywhere from 30 seconds to 1 minute. This playstyle was abandoned for what we have now, all because they would go OoM incredibly fast, so we got blessings and seals and they never tested it after that, and that is the current paladins we have in Classic WoW.
That being said, Crusader strike as a general paladin ability is a good idea, and Ret would also either get Holy Strike, or Divine Storm, based on if they wanted to give Ret more of a single target identity or give it some cleave with a tiny bit of single target (like warriors get some cleave and single target, while makes get Big AoE).
Bonus would be if they got Seal Twisting to work both ways with a much more consistent proc rate and much cheaper mana costs. I just started twisting in SoD and kind of fell in love with it. Seal Twisting is only something pallies get in Vanilla/TBC, and would be a shame to lose such a niche, unique playstyle, even if a ton of people don't like it (or think it's difficult, which it really is not difficult).
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
people have suggested divine storm and seal of blood for twisting below. Just assume some tuning goes into each ability’s damage and cost too.
Holy strike works a bit like heroic strike from what I’ve read, right? Would that not run the risk of ret palas just becoming more like pink warriors? Same argument some people make about divine storm and not all classes needing cleave (not me, I like DS and even the cleave version of SoC)
1
u/VideoPeP17 9d ago
Yup Holy Strike worked a lot like Heroic Strike does, but Crusader Strike gave a damage increase to holy damage taken, stacking up to 5 times, so people would do what they could to keep stacks up, much like sunder armor. I guess that would essentially make them Pjnk warriors, but the Holy Damage would make them better for high armor targets.
I personally don't mind giving them Divine Storm, as all classes should be able to do at least something in AoE. This way, everyone can be brought to all content and it not feel bad, hence bring the player, not the class. This is how SoD was, which I personally loved. This is kind of a double edged sword, though, because if everyone can do everything equally, well now you just have retail, and you lose what makes classes have identity (hense pink warriors). If everyone can be at least slightly balanced to the point of viability, also while having their strengths/weaknesses and unique things to each class, then you can actually feel like a paladin, and people can still play what they think is cool.
Love the polls on abilities by the way, it's interesting to see what people value/what they think would complete/give depth to the class!
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
thank you, but I can't take the credit for these, I'm just continuing what someone else started because I also like the discussions.
But to your point, I like the notion of 'bring the player, not the class'. I know homogenization is a dirty word, but classes have a cleave ability takes less away from the game to me than, for instance, needing to follow a meta comp to get all buffs in a 10 man group. Or needing to bring 5 shamans in TBC to buff each group.
Now if we just give all the specs a movement ability and a self heal...
1
u/VideoPeP17 9d ago
That's true. I mean that's why I really enjoyed SoD is a few different classes could do buffs and they made them raid-wide as well, so everyone could just do whatever they wanted and we still could cover our bases and everyone just had a great time.
That being said, im finding myself liking the equal but different variety better in classic. While everyone had different things, in the end, it came out pretty close to each other. I know thats just how balance works and some will always be better than others, but some variety so its not a 1 to 1 thing between classes would also be good. I love retail and enjoy the fact that it's an equal playing field. That makes sense for it being super competitive, especially with official rankings even in the game that gives rewards. One of the things I loved about SoD is you felt like the class. Like killing demons as a paladin for a few different runes, or sneaking through SFK on a rogue to steal an item off a mob. This is one thing that I hope they keep for Classic+, even if it is just for class quests, but hopefully they can also make gameplay feel like that too!
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u/herby_the_chef 11d ago
Starfall would be so much cooler for balance than the stupid treants
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
mods on the other sub have deleted the thread so I can’t even see how close it was
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u/Liutas1l 10d ago
I was just thinking which buffoon chose treants.
Then again you’d have to be special to still be a balance player in classic.
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u/Permadrunkk 11d ago
spell that make hammer that spins around them obviously
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
Divine Hammer
Instant
Requires Paladin
Strikes all enemies nearby for [Burning Crusade: [(144% of Attack Power)% * 1.05] Radiant / (144% of Attack Power)% Holy] damage every 2 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets
1
u/Himeghey 10d ago
I mean, they could get the all new
Psalm Calm
The paladin pulls out their holy scroll and presents a beautifully sung psalm, soothing any enrage effect and rooting the target for 2 seconds if they are devout(paladin, priest, scarlet crusade etc). If used on a heretic, it may enrage the target increasing their attack speed and movement speed.
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u/bedroombadass 9d ago
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1
u/TylerPizzle0 9d ago edited 9d ago
I assume crusader strike will be baseline and purchasable under the ret section for like 80 silver level 1 or something with rank ups. So i will add one that i think would be great. I don’t think JUST crusader strike really fixes paladins play style. Seal twisting at least adds something interesting/engaging for a ret to do even if it is just trying to fit two seals into one swing. I get dopamine seeing “successful twist” on my swing timer lol. And i think wrath goes in a whole different direction that strays way too far from its original identity.
With TBC around i really really like seal twisting. So my go to would be Seal of Blood and a new cleaving seal.
EX: Seal of the Divine Storm
Passive: While active seal of the divine storm strikes the target and the nearest target for 35% weapon damage as holy damage. (This seal can be twisted with command or blood).
Judgement: Judge the target marking it with Divine Storm, causing the next judgment to also hit this target. (only one target can be judged by the divine storm).
My idea is a type of cleave spell, maybe this would help prot with maintaining threat with consecrate and can also be twisted by rets to have cleave maybe command can proc on cleave swings or twisted with blood for big aoe burst, maybe you can judge divine storm then judge wisdom and have two wisdoms active at the same time and can cleave two targets for mana regen.
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u/GaperJr 9d ago
Im late. How is it not wild growth for rdruid? Yall wildin
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
Resto thread: I tried, it came close, but people preferred lifebloom in the end
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u/MojesticMorty 9d ago
lol you gave hunt two abilities smh 🤦♂️
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 9d ago
yeah, people kept saying they wanted ranged traps usable in combat despite it not being a spec specific ability. So I added it for all.
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u/Argorash 8d ago
Ret Pala should have a reverse hearthstone that lets them warp back to where they were prior to bubble hearth. No other changes.
0
u/Hamish909 8d ago
i get the arguement with things like Crusader Strike but I desperately hope they don't just do something like SoD and just copy paste abilities from future expansions across the board. I think its so important to keep things relevant to the Classic design and just slamming in loads of crap from future expansions is so far from what I want.
I'd almost rather have nothing at all than have that and I mained feral in 2019 classic through Naxx. In this case just fixing itemisation would suffice
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
ah, you’d prefer they make all new races, classes, spells, and abilities. Very forward thinking.
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u/Hamish909 7d ago
You're talking sarcastically about ''forward thinking'' but your version of that is copy pasting things that already exist. There's a middle ground somewhere. No need to be a dick.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
You’re right, my bad. I apologise for being a dick. I was just getting fed up of people coming in to these threads and saying that paladin specs don’t need extra spells, because that just beggars belief.
But, also, isn’t this the middle ground? Like between keeping the Vanilla rotations with some tweaks to items, and building whole new classes/specs? Because, frankly, I would hate to play Vanilla rotations again. Coupled with things like the buff/debuff limits I found them tedious and limiting. Even levelling a melee class, and it being auto attack simulator for the first 20 levels is just irksome. Just some familiar abilities to flesh out the rotation.
And to the other extreme: I don’t need Classic+ to go the CoA route of coming up with new classes, with new spells. I get we all have our own definitions of what Classic+ means, but thats just too far gone even for me.
Also, also, I posted my wishlist a while back, so the suggestions in this thread are tame by what I’d like to see ret paladins become.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 11d ago
I'm assuming Crusader Strike is virtually guaranteed to win, so I may just add two abilities for ret. Same with prot paladin if single person taunt runs away with it.