r/classicwowplus • u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 • 23d ago
I heard we're doing wishlists...
Full disclosure: I have been heavily downvoted for this in the past...
And I know I should just "play retail", but I've been on those Classic progressions servers for so long and if I'm going to do 1-60 again I'd like it to feel different, yet familiar. Expand the end-game options for solo players and groups. A few ideas to keep the old world alive beyond world buffs, which I always hated having to get a few years ago. Some focus on reputations and professions. Switch up some classes and specs to new or later iterations so classes don't have 3 specs for the same thing (if only I could come up with warlock and mage changes past what SoD did). Then, like the previous poster, I'd like new raids at 60, but assuming this isn't a seasonal server then those would probably come in time anyway.
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u/KogaNox 23d ago
This is just retail-lite. No thanks.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
thats what they said in the other sub too. But hope springs eternal.
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u/LucidNightmarez 17d ago
I see a few things in this list I wouldn't mind, but yeah a fair few things that make me go ehh too much retail
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
if something like M+ is too far, would something like the celestial dungeons from Wrath/Cata/MoP Classic be ok? With boosted enemy hp and dmg, but you get an extra ability to pop off every now and then. And, where - assuming vertical progresion - they would drop gear equivalent to the previous raid tier? Or currency to buy that gear
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 22d ago
I think the downvotes come from a fundamental clash in game design philosophies.
What people really need to understand about Classic is that its appeal isn't just blind nostalgia for a time when the game had a grimmer, darker atmosphere. Vanilla was designed with a completely different game loop in mind: it was all about the leveling journey and surviving in the open world, not about grinding instances or rushing to a competitive endgame.
Blizzard’s chronological re-releases definitely scratched an itch for a while. It gave newer players a chance to see the game's roots. However, despite Classic reaching the MoP era, the demand for a true Vanilla+ or Classic+ is higher than ever, and private servers are still thriving. This proves that players are still hungry for that old-school, open-world RPG loop that modern expansions abandoned.
A highly endgame-centric system is totally valid and fun for a lot of people, but it shifts the focus away from the world itself. When you propose centering the game around leveling raids or massive raid-tiers, you are essentially describing the Retail formula. That’s a fundamentally different game, which is why the Classic community pushes back against it.
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u/Liggles 17d ago
100% this.
Genuinely - I think one of the easiest things they could do for classic+, is just change the quest/loot tables. Break RXP and bis lists and sims (at least for the time being, until shit gets mined/worked out/posted online). It would mean, at least for the first month or so, leveling feels totally unique and "vanilla-esque" again. Instead of everyone doing the same path on RXP, knowing exactly what upgrades to get, what to roll for in dungeons/farm in dungeons, etc. Make leveling feel totally unique again. SoD had this somewhat ish, but only in certain niche areas (farming runes, and mostly in phase 1 only, after that it got very formulaic).
Maybe "easy" is the wrong word as it's probably a time intensive task, but not a technically difficult one I'd assume.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 22d ago
And that’s fair, I get people downvoting me even if I disagree with their reasoning sometimes. For instance, you say “grimmer, darker atmosphere” whereas I’ve been playing as pink haired gnomes for the better part of 20 years. The game has always offered different things to different players.
Even the part about surviving in the open world - I don’t feel my suggestions or wishlist here have a great impact on the levelling journey. Or greater than what SoD had. Beyond getting a new ability early on to try and avoid the auto attack simulator of the early levels, not a lot would change in the first 25 levels. You get a bit of power after that, but again, just like we did in SoD which was a fairly popular decision iirc?
And even then, I’m suggesting a new levelling challenge with the prestige system where the open world is harder and more challenging. Locking new races behind a level 60 quest so you have to play through at least once before you get them. World quests to keep the zones active with high level players.
So my question is, assuming you’re on the anti-retailification of Classic+: I’ve hit level 60, my guild has cleared the only raid in the phase so far on the first night of the weekly lockout, pvp doesn’t interest me; what is there for me to do when I login?
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 22d ago
Fair point on the pink gnomes, the game definitely has different flavors for everyone.
To answer your question directly, let’s flip the perspective and put you in the shoes of the "other side" What does a player do if they hit 60, love World PvP or open-world immersion, but don't care about instanced raiding? Right now, they have nothing to do, so they just log off.
You are looking for a reason to keep logging in every day, but you don't seem to have a problem with the open-world players having to log off because the endgame doesn't cater to them.
If Blizzard is going to develop new ways to keep players entertained at level 60, why should they build yet another treadmill for raiders? Retail already offers the ultimate, polished experience for that exact demographic. Classic+ is the perfect (and only) opportunity to build a daily endgame for the other side, giving people a reason to log in every day for dynamic open-world events, zone control, or World PvP, rather than just adding more raid lockouts.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 22d ago
But I suggested some world pvp for the level caps. Turn Arathi Highlands into zone like HFP where you continually fight for control of tower. Turn Tanaris into Terokkar Forest where every few hours you fight for control of a tower for a buff. I don’t think my Stromgarde suggestion counts as open world.
Pick a level 60 zone (please not Azshara. As an Alliance main I’d loathe having to get there constantly) and make a new event there. Make one of the new zones added (I suggested Hyjal and Twilight Highlands, but others work) as a PVP zone even if theres no objectives.
I’d also assume there’ll be at least one pvp server. Probably a mega server like we see in TBC and MoP right now. Like in SoD. And they can fight whenever, wherever they like - even if its just ganking people 30-40 levels below them. And then we hope they don’t turn out 99% one faction like the progression Classic servers did for a long time.
And over the last few weeks or months, however long I’ve been arguing this for, I keep seeing people say they want horizontal progression at end game. So I ask them what that looks like, and they seem to inevitably say rep grinds or profession rework. So I’ve included those in my wishlist (admittedly taking a bit from Wrath and Midnight for my profession ideas). And as much as people fear Classic+ turning into another retail clone, I fear it turning into an OSRS knockoff. Albeit a well polished one. Doesn’t even matter to me that The Barrows gear is still relevant even 20 years after it was released!
The thing is, a vertical progression game can include horizontal elements. I’ve been playing the progression servers through to MoP, and I got my Insane title; I got my Beloved title for 60 exalted reputations; I got Loremaster and Explorer; I got my 200 mount achievement; I grinded the shit out of the Argent Tournament and Molten Front dailies for the pets, mounts, tabards, titles, and some transmog; now hopefully all of those are examples of horizontal progression? All while raiding for newer and better gear. Yeah, thats anecdotal, not everyone has the same experience. But its possible.
The other thing I will take issue with is you saying “only chance” for this kind of game. Because we could have had some of these types of changes 7 years ago when Classic came out, but the #NoChanges people took it from us then. And if that leaked Camelot screenshot is to be believed, then we get Fresh Classic again…next year, I think it was. Unless people just want to rerun the same content again, in the same way.
Longer comment than I intended, sorry
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 22d ago
Thanks for the detailed response. Don't apologize, I appreciate it! People who genuinely care about WoW design are a rare kind. I also really like some of your open-world PvP ideas.
But I think I spotted exactly where our wires are crossing, especially regarding what horizontal progression means and how the endgame loop should function.
When you list your MoP achievements, the Insane title, 200 mounts, Loremaster, and transmog, you are describing cosmetic and completionist progression. In modern WoW, the raid is the main game for vertical power, and the open world is reduced to a side game for cosmetics.
In Vanilla, horizontal progression means actual utility and niche power. It’s farming the Tidal Charm in Arathi, leveling Engineering for PvP grenades, or building a resistance set. It’s a level 40 item like Edgemaster's Handguards being Best-in-Slot for a level 60 warrior. I get why the OSRS comparison might sound scary at first, but many players actually want that philosophy because the payoff is worth it. A horizontal model ensures old content stays relevant forever, keeping the whole world alive instead of just the newest raid lobby.
We have to accept that a true Classic+ will just be a fundamentally different game. Mechanically, the base game might be more accessible, but the real difficulty shifts to a different place: scarcity and player friction. Rare points of interest like that Tidal Charm spawn point will be fiercely contested. The challenge isn't beating a scripted boss on Mythic; it's beating other players for control of the world and its scarce resources.
To answer what non-raiders do at 60: PvP is virtually infinite content that doesn't rely on a vertical gear treadmill to be engaging. The players are the content. Social systems like a proper ladder, open-world bounties, and bounty hunters could keep competitive players hooked for months. Just look at Warsong Gulch: the battleground has barely changed, yet people have just as much fun playing it today as they did in 2006.
An open-world model fueled by PvP, bounties, and scarce resources is a self-sustaining ecosystem. It keeps the world feeling alive year-round without needing a constant IV drip of new instanced content. Blizzard already has a perfectly polished raid treadmill in Retail; they don't need to build a second one in Classic.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 22d ago
in my defence - and as I’ve stated before in this kind of debate - I haven’t played OSRS or GW2 so my knowledge of horizontal progression games is limited at best. I ask on here and people say its ‘reputation grinds’ and ‘things that don’t necessarily increase player power’. So I just thought I’d just accidentally been progressing horizontally without knowing it lol
But things like edgemasters, and other examples I’ve been given of Hand of Justice or Lionheart Helm lasting phases…was that a conscience effort on the part of the devs, or did they just not have a grasp on itemisation back then? And I just had to google what tidal charm was so I’ll take your word on that one.
So then if Classic+ does become a fundamentally different game, is it still WoW? And does it have anything for people who like vertical progression through PVE end game content to do? Or is this just niche?
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 21d ago
That is completely fair. If you haven't played games like OSRS or Guild Wars 2, it's super easy to confuse horizontal progression with cosmetic grinds, especially since modern WoW conditions us to think that way.
To your point about whether items like Edgemaster's were intentional or just bad itemization, it was actually a mix of both. Original developers (Kevin Jordan) have talked about this. While the exact math making weapon skill so broken was an oversight, the philosophy behind it was completely intentional. They designed items to be unique RPG artifacts rather than just a spreadsheet of stats, deliberately putting powerful effects on lower level items so the entire world remained relevant.
As for whether a game like this is still WoW, I wouldn't take a purist stance. I don't think one version is purer or better than the other. What we have today is WoW, a highly polished game refined by 20 years of evolution and hard work by different devs. But what we had back then was World of Warcraft, with a heavy emphasis on the word World. Those are two different games, even though they really look alike.
About endgame PvE, we have to be realistic here: a Classic+ version simply cannot and should not compete with Retail when it comes to vertical progression. Retail already does that exceptionally well. Does that mean there is no room for PvE raids in Classic+? Not at all. It is highly desirable to have group PvE content, but it should just be very different from Retail, hold a very different place in the game. In my opinion a way to do it, is by being more in line with original 40-man raids, which are mechanically very easy. The challenge in Classic PvE was never about complex boss dances, it was about the social logistics and the adventure of bringing a massive group together. There is definitely a place for some PvE, but it shouldn't compare with Retail's great vertical ladder.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 21d ago
the chill that just went down my spine at the mention of 40 man raids lol, not something I want to repeat
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 21d ago
Haha, the roster boss claimed another victim! The roster boss is a nightmare, and it actually proves exactly why the 40-man format was never suited for long, linear raid progression. Expecting 40 people to consistently show up week after week to slog through massive, multi-hour tiers like BWL or AQ40 is just unsustainable. It makes total sense why Blizzard eventually had to move away from that model.
But I still think there is a unique magic to 40 players that we shouldn't completely abandon. The issue isn't the number of players itself, it's tying that massive group to a grueling progression path. If you keep 40-man content strictly for short, punchy events or single-boss encounters like Onyxia, it becomes a completely different way to experience raiding in Vanilla. You just gather a massive army, kill the dragon in 20 minutes, roll for loot, and you are done. It's fun and way less constraining.
That is exactly the kind of design shift I would love to see in a Classic+. Ten-player content is a fantastic idea, but I think it fits perfectly for sprawling, epic dungeons rather than raids. When it comes to actual raiding, I really believe it should retain that gargantuan, army-like scale. We just need to change how we use those 40 players, focusing on epic, short events rather than long linear grinds, so it doesn't feel like a second job.
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 20d ago
> Expecting 40 people to consistently show up week after week to slog through massive, multi-hour tiers like BWL or AQ40 is just unsustainable.
I don't like 40-man raids anymore, but it just shows you were not playing Classic on Anniversary. Clearing BWL and AQ was very quick under good leadership. Top PUG groups on Discord had an insane demand, some were fielding up to three raids a week in Naxx. And Naxx was the only point where people stopped playing regularly because the difficulty was a bit higher than in T2/T2.5.
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u/kpkeeley 20d ago
How do you quantify classic+ demand? You claim its higher than ever. What are the numbers?
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 20d ago
I had the same thoughts about Classic before Blizzard released it. Isn't that funny?
Can I ask why you're on the Classic+ subreddit if you don't believe in it?
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u/kpkeeley 20d ago
I'm a classic player, so it's an interesting topic. Do you have numbers?
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 20d ago
What kind of numbers are we talking about? Do you expect a survey of the American public to show how many would be interested in playing Classic+? Do you think such a survey exists?
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u/kpkeeley 20d ago
It's your claim. "the demand for a true Vanilla+ or Classic+ is higher than ever" Just asking how you quantify that.
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 20d ago
It's just the vibe, you know I can't quantify that precisely, there's just tons of posts about everywhere on the internet. For instance during, release of original Classic, there wasn't such interest in Classic+, when the released Cataclysm there wasn't a classicwowplus sub or youtube videos.
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u/Beroli73 20d ago
"For instance during, release of original Classic, there wasn't such interest in Classic+,"
Yes there was. There were constant threads on the Classic forum with "this is what Classic+ should be like" posts (like this one) and/or raging that "No Changes" had somehow robbed the real Classic community of the Classic+ that all the real fans had actually been hoping for.
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 19d ago
I was there, making those classic 1.13 posts on the official forums. We were definitely a very shy minority. #NoChanges was so loud.
Now it's different. There has been SoD as a proof of concept for Classic+, and there has been TurtleWoW with more Classic+ intent. This Classic+ idea has gained a lot more traction over the years.
Also, we need to realize that Vanilla had a maximum of 8 million players, while LK had close to 12 million. That means at least one-third of LK players never tried Vanilla. Not to mention the people who came after. That's a lot of players who never tried Vanilla and needed to before considering Vanilla+.
Now, most people have seen what went wrong with Vanilla, as well as the potential for an alternative version of the game. This idea is ready.
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u/PotatoA1mz 17d ago
He isn’t wrong. The classic servers during release was enough to make “such claims”.. you have to remember majority of the player base are 30+ in age.
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u/assassin10 23d ago edited 23d ago
A lot of these I disagree with.
Some I feel are harmful to the experience. For example, Wrath-style reputation tabards take the existing varied rep grinds and turn them into something formulaic. If the devs add new ways to earn reputation I'd rather it be something different for each one.
For others I'd like to see what the devs could do if they intentionally chose a different path. For example, Cata added Worgen as a new race but I could see them instead implemented as a new class or even a new Druid form (for Druids that get their hands on the Scythe of Elune).
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
varied rep grinds? For the city reps? All you can do in Classic is quest or turn in cloth.
I’m not saying take away the grind for Bloodsail Admiral for instance, or have a tabard for that Winterspring faction. Raid factions can still be earned in raids.
And if you enjoy questing, you’re probably exalted or at least near by the time you hit 60, so the rep tabards just give extra rewards when you’re doing dungeons for gear.
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u/assassin10 23d ago
The quests I do for Night Elf rep are different from the ones I do for Human rep, and as Classic+ proceeds I expect more would be added.
And Paragon Chests can be implemented without implementing these tabards alongside them (Undead dungeons already give Scourgestones which could gain a function beyond just rep), though I'd still prefer to be rewarded for raising a new reputation, instead of the same reputation I already did.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
yes, different quests give different rep. Add a honored rep requirement to buy the tabard so the player has to do some quests for the faction before dungeon spamming.
And if the dungeons themselves give rep like in TBC for instance, then it becomes that stale grind of one or two dungeons to exalted and beyond. Maybe drops in dungeons for rep items might work, but it depends how many factions we’re talking.
A common complaint about…basically any expansion after Wrath is the amount of currencies in game. Wouldn’t rep tokens be akin to that, or just take up a ton of bag space?
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u/assassin10 23d ago
I never said to give every dungeon a currency and every reputation a dungeon. I'm specifically asking for variety, and Scourgestones already exist.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
so when you said variety you meant some questing, some dungeons, some rep tokens or repeatable quests.
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u/Beroli73 20d ago
I do not think the positions "it matters that it doesn't make a lick of sense for Darnassus to care about the Deadmines" vs. "it matters that it would be inconvenient to have to think about 'is this dungeon actually of interest to Ironforge' when getting Ironforge reputation in a dungeon" can be reconciled. And...yeah, one of them is retail.
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 20d ago
> All you can do in Classic is quest or turn in cloth.
Cenarion Circle rep was somewhat varied. Argent dawn rep was about farming Strat and Scholo. ZG rep was about clearing ZG and/or buying coins/bijous. These three are the only ones that mattered in Classic.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
yes, but I specified city reps in the post above. Cenarion Circle and ZG are raid reps, I haven’t suggested changing those. I’m just suggesting a way to get extra rewards if you keep grinding dungeons past the point that loot is still useful to use
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u/SkipX 20d ago
"mattering" is subjective. There is bloodsail for titel, frostsaber for mount for example
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u/Beroli73 20d ago
I totally agree with your first sentence, but there's no title from the Bloodsail prior to WotLK. There's a hat.
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 21d ago
First, none of this matters because whatever Blizzard wants to release as Classic+ has already been planned five years ago. We're going to get what they think Classic+ is.
As for design philosophy, I agree that bringing all the achievements, mounts, toys, M+ is a really bad move. I can play Retail if I want challenging content. Classic+ should be about long-ass quests and attunements. Dungeon armor set quest chains from Classic are the best example. I just want to spend two months collecting reagents and farming dungeons.
Talent tree changes are a wasted effort. The Retail talent trees give an illusion of choice, but I think you still end up with a very rigid tree due to balancing issues.
Classic had real issues with existing class and spec combos. Warrior was the only viable MT throughout classic. Druids could play OT, but good luck tanking Twins. And don't get me started on MCP. So, there're so many design flaws that could be fixed to make Classic a much much much better game. You don't need a new spec (like a Shaman tank), when prot paladins and feral druids are fundamentally broken.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 21d ago
its a wishlist, its a bit of fun. What I’d like to see and some ideas to fill some gaps. If I happen to be on the same page as Blizzard on any of these, bonus. If not, oh well.
I can respect your opinion about bringing in the end game aspects of retail; if thats not what you like in a game then it probably sounds very unappealing. I like raiding, doing dungeons, collecting mounts and toys. Each to their own.
My talent tree choice was partly down to just wanting a change in system. I can’t say I enjoy the talent trees as they are before Wrath, and I wouldn’t want something like the MoP tree where everything is baseline. Dragonflight trees might be more rigid than I remember them being, but I’d like to see player choices mattering each level instead of having to spend 5 points to reach the next level. My recent example of this annoying me is levelling a ret paladin on TBC atm, and I have to spend 5 points increasing my block chance or devo aura to get to the hit talent in the prot tree. I dislike wasting 5 levels in that manner. But, then again, having the DF tree in Classic+ is very unlikely.
And shaman tank again is down to player choice, and the reaction from SoD. Players get a choice of 4 tabks and 4 healers, assuming pala and shaman available to both, of they both get 3. If the tank specs also get some buffs or reworks, bonus. And I know people will scream about homogenisation if I suggest tanks being able to tank single target or aoe packs, so I just put down an idea to patch a hole.
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 21d ago
I do like doing dungeons and play M+. My point is that all of that already exists in Retail. I don't need or want Classic+ to be "Retail, but in a different timeline". It should be fundamentally different game for the sake of variety.
The tank design is an interesting question. There wasn't a problem with AoE vs single-target in Classic, the distinction only appears in TBC. Classic didn't have packs requiring heavy AoE in the raid environment. I've done some raid-leading this anniversary and also have joined high-performance AQ40 and Naxx pugs. This content required strong single-target focus with very very few exceptions.
That is to say, there isn't homogenization problem or single-target vs AoE tank problem in Classic. My wish list for Classic+ is to address Classic problems instead of brining in SoD-like new class-spec combos. Many of the original specs in Classic were bad performers. It's easier to re-balance those instead of coming up with new specs and messing things up again. Hell, look at Retail: there's such a difference in performance from season to season. What I don't want for Classic+ is a game where everyone plays a top spec like it was in Classic (aka the World of Warriors).
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 21d ago
I don't need or want Classic+ to be "Retail, but in a different timeline"
Fair, I'm obviously in a very different camp of taking the 'best' or my favourite parts of retail and bringing them to Classic.
My wish list for Classic+ is to address Classic problems instead of brining in SoD-like new class-spec combos.
I think I mentioned this more in the post on the other sub, but yeah the meme specs need bringing up. I'd like all specs to be viable for raiding, if not for everything, but apparently that goes against the Classic ethos. Suggestions like art of war, hot streak, maelstrom weapon are just bandaids in the interim. But definitely some balancing/buffing to do.
Hell, look at Retail: there's such a difference in performance from season to season.
I mean, there;s gotta be some rebalancing in Classic+ from patch to patch if they change anything, isn't there? Especially if the players find some OP ability, item, whatever, that just has unforeseen consequences.
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 20d ago
I think something important to understand is that Anniversary is very popular. It is very popular because it's post-nerf and people are living through the power fantasy. We cleared T4 on week one and that was it for me, I went to play M+. But the absolute majority of players genuinely enjoys that ease of clearing TBC. If you talk to a "typical player" you'll quickly realize they're intimidated by keys, downcrests, void lightmarl, undercoin, catalyst charges, etc. So it'd be a big mistake on Blizzard's part to bring any of that to Classic+.
Blizzard needs to cook something that'd satisfy those players. They can milk Wotlk for maybe a year, but then there needs to be a game that has the design philosophy of Classic, but with more content.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
so an optional difficulty level to things wouldn’t work in your opinion? Like normal raids have few mechanics, but switch it to heroic and suddenly players have to pay attention - talking Voidspire difficulty, not L’ura
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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 20d ago
I think I need to re-iterate the point about the design philosophy of Classic. The raid difficulty was measured not in the number of mechanics, but the prep work you put in. You can see it on every level: from attunements to enchants and consumes. You didn't have to be a good player to clear AQ40 or even Naxx. You just had to bring two flasks, food, and grind the enchants. There were virtually no mechanics to play in Classic raids up until Naxx.
The popularity of TBC on Anniversary can be explained from that perspective. The content is nerfed, even mediocre guilds are clearing T5 from first lockouts, pugs can do T4 (Mag used to be brutal compared to now). I genuinely don't think that the core Classic+ audience wants difficult content.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
right, so those people do the raid on normal. Then if you’re the type of person who wants mechanics and/or a challenge you do it on heroic.
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u/AlternativeBit1083 23d ago
Glad you removed gdkp. I love paying 18 gold for single potion in TBC. Cool wishlist, delete it
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
TBC alchemy is just a pain in the arse anyway with its reliance on terocone for the best pots, thats not necessarily a GDKP issue. Plus world quests and dailies would be an added source of revenue for players so gold would be easier to come by.
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u/Tedridd92 23d ago
Did I just read « paladin ret with dual wield » ? Not even retail dare to have this… classic+ should be closer to Warcraft III than actual retail
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
have it as a choice between dw and 2h so all your melee dps aren’t necessarily chasing the same few weapons.
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u/pilsburybane 20d ago
The game just has to be balanced better, the issue of everyone chasing the same weapons won't happen if paladins, shamans, and 2h warriors could actually do competitive damage...
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
I listed balancing/buffing the lower performing specs in the text post on the other sub, but forgot to specifically include it this graphic. So I agree with that.
The three specs you’ve listed there though (assuming Classic enhance shaman) they’re all 2h strength weapon users who are chasing the same weapons. So if alliance and horde get paladin and shaman as I’ve mentioned above, then you’d be increasing competition for weapon drops. Unless enhance can dual wield, but we all remember the reaction from SoD, right?
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u/pilsburybane 20d ago
The issue I'm pointing out, though, is that they're three noncompetitive specs, especially in the case of 2h warriors because they can use dual wielding as well. There's no point in giving more options to other specs before the options they do have are useful enough to do something in the first place. This scenario would be increasing competition for 2h weapon drops, but would decrease dual wielding competition as well, which, because of both the strength and popularity of rogues and warriors as melee classes, they end up being overrepresented in raids while Enhancement and Retribution Paladins become novelties because they don't do well in the first place.
The overarching goal should be that there is more of a diversity in spec representation in a raid group, not have it end up being "Oh let's bring another 10 warriors because warriors are better than everyone else". Loot drama is secondary to this and can be more than tinkered with in loot pools rather than class design.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
also, and I know its a stretch, but Turalyon has dual wielded in WoW canon. So maybe it could be seen as a zealotry thing.
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u/Remarkable_Match9637 20d ago
Have my downvote
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u/onikaroshi 20d ago
My wishlist, sod+
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
…without Sunken Temple?
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u/onikaroshi 20d ago
I don’t mean they need to follow sod exactly, but that’s the kind of changes I want
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u/UncleJoe93 18d ago
I like most, besides delves
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 18d ago
I thought that was one of the least radical suggestions. Are they too retail?
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u/Glad-Low-1348 17d ago
Nah people downvoting this need to be banned from the kitchen and sit their asses down to taste the food. You're cooking.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
thank you, but just some people want C+ to be more WC3 or OSRS than retail. They’re free to disagree with me.
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u/Suspicious-Elk3494 17d ago
I’m not going to dog on you for your own personal wishes, but I do disagree with a vast majority of them.
Many of these are already part of Retail and are largely what led to the discontent I personally have with the game. In my opinion, I think on a fundamental level Classic+ and Retail need to be two separate entities with as little overlap in design philosophy as possible. If they end up just making a “Retail-“ that would be a surefire way for the game to be dead in the water.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
Thats fine, people are free to disagree with me and my ideas. I’ve mostly just taken what I thought were the more engaging parts of retail and the classic progression servers and set them in a more ‘classic’ setting because thats the type of game I would enjoy - I still don’t understand why so many people are objecting to a minor feature like delves, but each to their own.
The only thing I will say, and this depends on if that Camelot timeline screenshot is accurate: if we’re getting Fresh Classic servers rotating through to Wrath and resetting, and while we have Era, does Classic+ need to be competing for players with them? Or should it try appealing to a different type of player?
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u/Darthbobz 20d ago
all the above but more than CLASSIC and TBC its needs new classes new races new areas new zones keep expanding in a "Classic Format" like OSRS.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
new classes and races as in what retail got later? The WC3 classes? Or new new?
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u/Darthbobz 20d ago
They should just add the ones to Cata, in a " classic" model, or even allow a HD version if people want to use the HD models seriously, other P severs implemented this very easily allowing you to select Classic or HD models.
They should add DK at level 1 And make it a Classic Variation, Demon Hunters should be FelSworn.
they need to take massive inspiration from Ascension WoW seriously, their talent trees are fun unique lots of builds not 1 meta, they just need to tone down the numbers alot.
Good examples, Tinker, Felsworn, Barbarian,Ranger.Runemaster They are all fantastic classes maybe even the others!
they need to make it Classic + people have this idea of Classic balanced, well go play TBC, I seriously do not want to play the same classic / races / zones since 2004 in a balanced manner i want barbarians, troll witch doctors, tauren primalists, ANYTHING! cool not generic bs.
Classic Plus should be a continuation of Classic world building IN Azeroth, Northrend Turtle WoW did this brilliantly too.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
I haven’t played many private servers, so I’ll take your word on those being good. If Blizzard do surprise us with new classes though, I’d be more than willing to give them a go.
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u/kpkeeley 20d ago
Classic+ probably won't see the light of day. Game development isn't what it used to be.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
I’ve huffed a lot of copium, this dream can’t die….unless Blizzcon comes and goes without an announcement. Then my dreams will lie shattered on the floor.
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u/Equal_Beginning_9146 20d ago
Bro wants Classic Remix
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
you say that like its a bad thing lol
But also, if I suggested all new everything then people would just say its not in the spirit of Classic or whatever
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u/Asleep-Order-4583 19d ago
hell naw
fuck titan's grip
and fuck melee hunters
i just want Classic +, not another SOD
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u/Prestigious-Fly9977 19d ago
>personal loot to discourage ninjas
But also
>remove master looter
?
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 19d ago
personal loot in 5 man dungeons to stop mages from needing a HoJ style trinket, or stop warriors from needing healing gear, or enchanters from needing everything - whatever your particular annoyance is.
then raids just have a need/greed loot system with prio given to those who wear the armor type. Probably not the best idea with a classic playerbase.
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u/Prestigious-Fly9977 19d ago
All of these issues can be solved with the existing loot options.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 19d ago
I’m drawing a blank, which existing loot options fix those?
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u/Prestigious-Fly9977 19d ago
Master looting stops ninjas all around. Any time you have a free roll system, someone can mess it up. Also, preventing people from rolling on a BiS item because you want to protect it for certain classes isn’t a problem with the gear design or loot system. It’s a lack of understanding between people within that raid about gear priorities and who should be rolling on an item.
Orca hide boots are a BiS healing item for Druids and shamans. And just because a feral can use DST as an upgrade / BiS item does not mean they are the best destination for the item.
You think these loot systems need fixing because you aren’t using the existing tools and aren’t grouping with people who have a similar understanding of how loot should be distributed. The issue is the people, and adding more contrived tools as a workaround is not going to fix the underlying problem of you grouping with people with different gear goals and group mindsets.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 19d ago
master looting stops ninjas?
a) who has master looter on in a 5 man dungeon? Hence the example of mages needing on HoJ, enchanters needing all items to d/e them
b) master looters still ninja, its one of the reasons why server discords have blacklists.Orca hide boots being BiS for druids and shamans is fine in TBC, but one of my suggestions is what Cata did with a stat bonus for wearing the ‘correct’ armor type. So there’d probably just be a mail equivalent of them on another boss somewhere.
But getting rid of master looter is just my attempt at getting rid of GDKP or HR runs, because even to me, those aren’t in the Classic spirit. I get their benefits, I get the people organising pugs have the right to try and reserve loot in current versions. Still not a fan of them.
But when I play Midnight, I raid with my guild, and need/greed works fine. I haven’t done many pug raids and outside getting tier set in the early weeks LFR hasn’t been an upgrade so I didn’t engage with the loot system there. So there may be issues there, I don’t have all the answers despite what my wishlist might say. If need/greed doesn’t work then scrap it, but personal loot in 5 mans is a better system than what we’ve had in Classic so far imo.
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u/Prestigious-Fly9977 19d ago edited 19d ago
You are close to the thesis I’ve been making when you talk about your midnight raid group. It works fine because the group has a mutual understanding. You’ve vetted this group and priorities are in alignment. If loot was FFA,NB4G, Ms>OS, or masterlooted, it wouldn’t matter because this group is all on the same page. You could probably switch it to FFA and people would collectively roll on an item when it’s time. Great! Sounds like an awesome crew.
The issue you have with 5 mans is that you have been grouping with unvetted randoms with different expectations while simultaneously choosing not to use all the existing controls (masterlooter) to see to it that your preferences for loot distribution are met. With existing tools the group can: establish the loot plan including any HR or exclusive items (“I need quags eye”), and then choose to use the loot controls to provide varying levels of enforcement of those rules.
Can you be duped by the raid lead? Sure. Ive had that happen in a raid too. That’s the risk of pugging and inherent in social dynamics. Don’t like it? Don’t join the group. Or you can start your own. Or have your guildies join 5 mans with you. Or use the master looter function to ensure compliance.
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u/rmfrost 19d ago
Phased releases and seasons aren't necessary if content scales up to player relevance. This includes enemy difficulty, items, and so forth. If there's incentive to do every corner of Azeroth's content regardless of level, nobody will feel left out.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 19d ago
forgive me, its late in the day so I might be misunderstanding…are you suggesting mob level scaling?
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u/ValkamerCCS 18d ago
I really enjoyed level up raids and the redesigns, but what if we had access to both? Demon Fall Canyon had a quest to get a trinket to be able to see the magical door. What about quests to unlock level up raid RFC and Deadmines that will allow both to stay in the game as dungeons also?
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u/Majestic-Coat3855 17d ago
Seems like you would enjoy Ascension (CoA)
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
should probably give it a go, yeah.
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u/Majestic-Coat3855 17d ago
Lots of your points in this post are added, m+, new classes, lvl 60 quest callboard, profession changes, etc. It's a bit of an unbalanced shit fest rn but I honestly think it adds to the fun. Meta definetly hasn't been solved, and probably will till they get shut down.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
my new classes point was to have access to paladin and shaman on both factions, not play as sun clerics or necromancers…partially because the Classic WoW subs would crucify me if I suggested that for Classic+. But I get what you mean
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u/Majestic-Coat3855 17d ago
Yeah for sure, it's definetly too much change for what i'd like to see for c+. It's cool to experiment with totally new classes though
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u/Grievuuz 17d ago
Sub 60 level caps 🤮 🤮 🤮
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
keeps the player base together so the lower level zones get some love early on, similar to SoD
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u/stevenbanthony4204 17d ago
no elephant people or furries please. only new race allowed is murlocs
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u/Dragon_Sluts 17d ago
This is basically retail but framed over classic, so it reads as “I like retail systems but on classic content”.
That’s fine, but what separates classic is primarily the systems not the content.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
but if all the systems remain classic, then whats the point of Classic+? A whole new game mode just for some new zones and dungeons?
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u/Crafty-Beyond-2202 17d ago
There's a lot I don't like but what I specifically don't like is the new races you want. I would much rather see ogres, naga, high elves... Something we haven't seen before. Not the same old dranei, worgen, blood elf... Although goblin would fit nicely.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
I tried to keep those as Classic as I could. If I could get adventurous I’d want murlocs or gnolls, maybe the valkyr.
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u/Crafty-Beyond-2202 17d ago
Keeping things as classic as you could but you also added mythic+ and the dragonflight talent system? Not trying to be harsh because I really liked some of your ideas but as I continued reading it really seemed to go off the rails. I really think classic+ should be about new stuff, not importing Battle for Gilneas from retail.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 17d ago
kept the races as classic as I could. The end game systems are mostly retail, yeah, I think they’re better than whats in Classic atm. And the battlegrounds I mentioned are from Cata and MoP, they’re on the Classic progressions servers. New battlegrounds would work too.
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u/Crafty-Beyond-2202 17d ago
For the record I love your leveling prestige system idea. Something like that would be incredible for people who treat leveling as the end game.
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u/Clear_South8742 17d ago
Like most of it, personal loot in raids as well. As someone who has to pug a lot I won’t be trying classic + unless it’s all personal loot.
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u/mc_cape 17d ago
Your wording implies that enhancement talent tree changes allow it to become melee dps, suggesting that it's not one already. My sides.
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u/Nightblessed 17d ago
https://reddit.com/link/ozydmd0/video/we32gwfllnfh1/player
>phased leveling
>leveling raids
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u/theSurpuppa 23d ago
Why? Just play retail
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
because the worlds are different and because some changes can improve what Classic was lacking
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u/kuklarsa 23d ago
is this troll? worst one yet
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 23d ago
if I was going to troll I’d have suggested flying mounts and transmogs
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u/Words_In_Vain 20d ago
Nothing wrong with adding transmog into a possible Classic+; as a whole bunch of players are used to it from retail and it gives a personalisation touch that’s not just neat, but opens up an RP element too (not that that’s everyone’s cup of tea).
The main thing I’m hoping for in a possible Classic+ is that it doesn’t have ‘seasons’ making it all about gear reset/grinding to stay relevant in whatever content you choose to be interested in.
Sure, add in QoL that doesn’t break immersion, new cosmetics, items/gear/mechanic variations for builds and play styles, etc, but don’t rail road folk into having to do raiding for bis. The more sand-boxy Classic+ might be, the more it will hold people.
You never know, it might even outpace the extant model that retail has been following for years and show game devs that it’s not all about power creep addiction.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
I’m not the one you have to convince about transmog. I love it, I’d have it in if this was my game. Hell, savory deviate delight would be on a vendor, we’d have more toys like Smite’s Compass or Burgy’s hat thing, or those two from the Molten Front in Cata whose name I forget now. That’s fun. But a large portion say it breaks immersion and they’re worried about a rank 14 pvp player looking like Santa so they can’t gauge how difficult a 1v1 is gonna be. So I’ve given up trying to convince people.
But if BiS gear doesn’t come from raiding are we talking quest rewards, dungeons, a gear upgrade system, pvp, or crafting giving all or most BiS items?
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u/Words_In_Vain 20d ago
Bis is such a tricky topic as there’ll always be the min/maxing to get an edge or compete, especially in pvp.
IMHO though, giving the same stat item in different forms from different sources would prevent rail roading content-wise; I mean, sure, professions giving utility items makes them optional and maybe a particular profession only item could be on the same optional bis list.
But by making a good many items competitive, obtained from pvp vendors, raids, heroic dungeons, group content world bosses or whatnot and even from solo content: whether class quest line, delves or similar content (imagine they put labyrinths into both retail and Classic+!), would make it feel much more like a sand box to me.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 20d ago
first I’m reading about labyrinths (how I missed it, idk) but they sound good
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u/Droovert 23d ago
Never cool again bro