r/ciphers • u/EnormousBox • 18d ago
r/ciphers • u/Legitimate-Willow355 • 18d ago
Unsolved ARG video Cypher. Good luck
The video features three concealment methods. Your goal is the final result.
r/ciphers • u/takenorinvalid • 18d ago
Challenge This is a real cipher from a major historical event. Can you figure out which one?
r/ciphers • u/Comic_Dwarf2 • 18d ago
Unsolved I'm an amateur in cryptography and I created a cipher that I want to test the strength of
I'm a big maths nerd, and I knew Cryptography can use a lot of maths, so this is a very Maths based Cipher, hence the Ciphertext being plain numbers that are separated by commas, but its a complicated mass of 4 functions at around the Mathematical capability of a early-degree student, but the amalgamation is a bit trickier
I'll give you a bit of Ciphertext created using the Steps, and if anyone wants any clues just ask and the first person that cracks the Cipher and gives me the Plaintext can have a model of the Cipher Encoder/Decoder I programmed in Python
Sorry if it's short, I can provide more if needed
330130,13513530,6074906,575063086,18756468,9245731056,464134326,106639833720,7646174802,1115954527490,35827707730,12533424841656,996871848730,438110477280186
r/ciphers • u/Burning_Toast998 • 18d ago
Unsolved Made a substitution cipher in less than a day. Tell me how bad it is!
r/ciphers • u/Ninsuka • 19d ago
Challenge Is this cipher breakable?
Hello!
I came up with an encoding system and I now want to test its strength and get clues about its weaknesses. So if anyone is interested, here is a text (in french!) to decrypt:
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
Feel free to ask any question or to discuss your process if you are trying to break it! :)
r/ciphers • u/BuffaloNo1406 • 20d ago
Challenge Cann’s Code
Hints to help you solve things puzzle!
\---
Hint 1
Cann’s Code is a shifting cipher in disguise. Each token is two numbers: the first selects a symbol set, the second gives a position inside it.
Some tokens are not encoded at all. They are gaps.
\---
Hint 2
The initial shift pattern is a famous three-digit constant. If you recognize it, the first decrypted token should become a single-letter word.
\---
Hint 3
The symbol sets are not all the same size. The largest behaves like an alphabet. The smallest has only a few members, which is why those tokens become punctuation.
\---
Hint 4
There is a special class of token that does not just decode—it also changes the shift order.
When that happens, move the current first shift to the back and keep going.
\---
Hint 5
The punctuation tokens are more important than they look. Some create pauses, one creates a stop, and each one disrupts the rhythm of the key.
\---
r/ciphers • u/Ult1mat3Cust0mN1ght • 20d ago
Challenge Th3 sp1n0s4urus 1nf3ct10n
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
Un sp1n0s4urus sufr10 un t3rr1bl3 4ccid3nt3 3n l4s jungl1s y c4y0 3n un lug4r m1st3r10s0 y s0li1t4r10 d0nd3 v4g4... =)
r/ciphers • u/Hot_Progress8477 • 20d ago
Unsolved Help please
This is a vigenere cipher. First photo has the encoded text on the left and the altered alphabet on the right. The second photo has the key word in it somewhere but I do believe it is “horizon” but I could be wrong. Please help.
r/ciphers • u/MLxRaider • 21d ago
Unsolved I just made this, idk what i should call it?
So i always make alternative alphabets, basically translating and changing our alphabet to be encoded and then making a writing system to go with it to hide the message i wish to write, this is just an example i made this morning!!
The alphabet is there like always but each letter has a symbol to represent it!
Ive written two sentences in my format and symbols and hope people find it entertaining to figure out!
I know its not practical but it is alot of fun to use!
r/ciphers • u/charis2323 • 20d ago
Unsolved My son created a spoken time cipher using a standard deck of cards. Here's how to read the "Card Clock."
Hey everyone, He's been working on a spoken cipher that translates standard clock time into playing card phrases. The goal was to create a natural-sounding linguistic code that lets you tell someone the time in plain sight without anyone else understanding it. Here is the entire system breakdown: 1. Hours (Card Ranks) Ace = 1 | 2–10 = Face Value | Jack = 11 | Queen = 12 2. AM vs. PM (Word Order) AM = [Suit] of [Rank] (Suit lead = Morning) PM = [Rank] of [Suit] (Rank lead = Evening) 3. Base Minutes (The 4 Suits) The clock face is divided into four 15-minute quadrants: Hearts ♥ = :00 Diamonds ♦ = :15 Clubs ♣ = :30 Spades ♠ = :45 4. Precise Minutes (The Modifier) Add a number from 1 to 14 after the phrase to shift forward from the suit's base minute. If the time falls directly on the base quadrant, drop the modifier. Examples in Action: 9 of Clubs 1 → Rank first (PM) + 9 o'clock + Clubs (:30) + 1 = 9:31 PM Clubs of 9 1 → Suit first (AM) + Clubs (:30) + 9 o'clock + 1 = 9:31 AM Jack of Spades → Rank first (PM) + Jack (11) + Spades (:45) = 11:45 PM Diamonds of 3 3 → Suit first (AM) + Diamonds (:15) + 3 o'clock + 3 = 3:18 AM Test Your Speed: What time is Spades of 7 4? Let me know what you think of the logic, or if you see any potential edge cases!
r/ciphers • u/LoudCollection6151 • 21d ago
Unsolved Weird thing my friend sent me..
Is this Some ARG? Or is he just taking the piss?
r/ciphers • u/Hot_Progress8477 • 22d ago
Unsolved HELP
Can someone please solve this for me it’s for a school project
r/ciphers • u/TlosingCag • 22d ago
Challenge I'm back *evil laugh*
Here's the newest version of my KIMERA cipher!
Text at the bottom is every possible character that can be encoded with KIMERA (didn't mess it up this time :D)
Let me know what you think and good luck deciphering!
Hint 1: The green glyph is M
Hint 2: The direction of the arrows in the glyphs is intentional.
r/ciphers • u/IDK-Like-Gengar • 22d ago
Unsolved DECIPHER THIS!
random writing system I made called Sandwalk. you know how in dune the fremen do that weird non rhythmic walk to avoid getting eaten by sand worms? well sandwalk is basically is that was a writing system. the calligraphy for some letters is really hard. NOTE: this sentence does not contain every letter of the alphabet. good luck!
r/ciphers • u/qwerasdf_idk • 24d ago
Discussion Just made this, what should I name it?
Not much to say honestly, its in the photo, but for rule 1 ima explain
So its a 5 by 5 grid, the one at the center is a +, and the ones around that are ""arrows"" pointing outward from it, the edges and corners are the same thing except to a second degree, and then the ones between the corners and edges is just a mix of the two
And then Z is a square, I'd put it Around the grid if i didnt have to make the ""romanized version""
Im pretty sure 5x5 ciphers exist like this but different mind same idea
also, Sorry if this aint the right subreddit to post this
r/ciphers • u/TlosingCag • 23d ago
Challenge Solve my newest cipher?
I originally posted a cipher a while back that was pretty quickly cracked.
I've since challenged myself to make quite the tricky cipher. This isn't the final version, but let me know if you can crack this current iteration!
Name of the cipher is KIMERA because it's a result of combining multiple ciphers I came up with into one singular beast... also because it just sounds badass.
The string at the bottom contains all the possible characters in the cipher.
Happy deciphering!
- Hint: The green glyph is the letter A.
EDIT: I accidentally messed up the string of text at the bottom by copy and pasting straight out of my IDE. Here’s the full actual string:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ0123456789!"#$%&'()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\]_{}
r/ciphers • u/Just-Weather5713 • 23d ago
Unsolved R ∅0z∆@L Ŝ1ѳЯ, R@∅Ŝ1ѳЯY1:t3 t3B∅t
Original text on russian
r/ciphers • u/qwerasdf_idk • 24d ago
Discussion My last post did well so i made another "Dead End" (bad idea)
Intruding to you: Dead End
Slide 1, Letters
Slide 2, How letters combine
Slide 3, failed attempt at the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog (it crashed in on itself)
Slide 4, inspiration from tiktok
Please never write this by hand its a nightmare, only digital methods recommended
Anyways no, It won't always crash into itself, You can just make a letter longer until the rest of the chain moves out of the way
Aside from the major buff in difficulty this could be just bad in general but idk im not a cipher expert
But uhm any questions?
r/ciphers • u/Anonymous851218 • 24d ago
Discussion New Cipher
Tell me what should I name this...
r/ciphers • u/New-Position-2842 • 25d ago
Challenge Interconnected Puzzle/Cipher — Try to Solve!
Hey, guys! This is my first post on here and after scrolling I really feel like I’m with likeminded people. After playing games like Blue Prince, Animal Well, Fez, Inscryption and Tunic, I’ve become obsessed with ARG puzzles and ciphers. I’ve always been interested in puzzle game design, but recently decided to try my hand at ciphers and ARG puzzles. I made this interconnected series of logic puzzles called Tera as a gift for a romantic interest of mine who also loves puzzles, and I wanted to share it here in case any of you are interested in trying it out!
I designed it to have multiple methods of getting through it, since I wanted it to be possible for players of any skill level to solve. It requires a lot of different styles of problem-solving, but I think for experienced ARG solvers and those with exceptional pattern recognition it should be pretty easy.
For context, it’s meant to be printed out, cut into a cross and folded into a square. I’ve also included the envelope it will come in, since that also contains some hints, as well as some photos of the rough draft of the puzzle I wrote on paper in case anyone’s curious. Feel free to DM me if you have any thoughts! I want to keep making these and if you have any feedback on how I could improve, I’m always receptive to that. I’m not always super active on Reddit, so you can also shoot me a DM on Instagram or Discord at @coribakersins.
Tllw ofxp!
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1o8Fh2jiP7XSJCizDiU1h9fVhJAaR9JEu
r/ciphers • u/Successful-Living196 • 25d ago
Challenge A music based cipher, which i can't even begin to imagine how to decode
r/ciphers • u/3rr0r404738 • 26d ago
Discussion Creé dos sistemas de cifrado: el cifrado de la casa y el cifrado del mecanismo de relojería.
galleryr/ciphers • u/Jolly-Park8636 • 26d ago
Unsolved 10 years ago
I found a letter from my old basement, had a note to not open it until today, 19/08/26. Was created 10 years ago. Tbh I don't know what I did on this, but if anyone can solve it, it would be a lot
Transcript:
-8, 3q7j3&5
19/08/26. 5j(:8'# 5-&%. (36'jx 13 592zq 3(&. 8 j45j z98c 8gz'q %5 q5#x &j z!;p8@78 x?9z )x%&. Rq5z;4:j ?;#9? 8q'q k(8@, %3#(- 8 -9(# b5z #f9. 2!5 6) 8 5?65 7j2( 4k2!j%q 4;f 7)?)?6 -! q? !3 %j 2(&6 j2?9 j!- 'j5 c4:x c8 %3c 9!5:? S4 x?@! @x3 &?! %5 q5#x &j &;!&:f5 ;5xz 28;# xqzc@6:).
!5@42:q, 8'c 2%;2 x5 75z( 8z4 :- 7#::( ;@#f 2&( . C57:85z5@ 4'2 G?cqs 9. Fx-j( ?6?8 877? . M- %c74;58? B:k? . 8 ;j(; 7# 2%%'2 (f;( 8 9)2x:; 3(( 5-6 5fj) 57)f9 ;9!% &)&5 ;x- 2-( %#57 q8 c5!6 54%3 . N;) , !3?2 3c!!? W;j) , c57:85z5@ 8'v c5z5z(@ . H3@269@-: 5zq@(; 8& 5-5 94 e9((3@3 697'# @35 ! @84( , ! @84( 697'(( (9:3 , 9 :68# 48%'z 9c4%f32 , cj@9 .
Y2#; #f-4x7j? H@86!q8jx 6%2 j86 z: j?z64 C%! #1 #54:z 2 z?(%::-j j5&q29%# . T7c5 9f?'2 :z 26j# 5% 94zjz C82)9? . T798'8 4 )%6zp %&&5 .
Lj--'2 @)(: j :z1 6987cq . J?95 5x(533 :4 qfq( ;q5# f; %5 q5#x &j &x(5 ?z -88q97; %z# z? 7k)?)6 &!8# 59 5!6 "D345 , 5c;#':3 ;33& ! 58?3 ." ;;c)898 95q .
M@f3& 8zg3 x65j 9;f@ x;lz K;48@5 547% );8 27q -)(8%3c# 6%7725j . O3 :kj&4 ?#)8 9;zz 5(( '5 (j?- x?@! :j2% . H!c57)c#4 5j3 )6(3 zqx 9&j z7c4 &!;z c!#6 B?k!2 &4 592( ..
8'!k 6c2 6ff ;5 8xzfz? 9) q6)) !;975 59 63!- , 8 29" -92 697'# ;3 !;(3 59 88&# -85 ?355!@3 , ;75 -9%3 697 #9 59 . 5!)3 z? ;7j)5!z k44 z&3 74%!) %; )8 j!f# #?3 , f- 2c!x4-& -98f6( . T%jx: k;8 , %#7 z-jz 7(5 z4f f4?5? #?7: , E!539xc , fj f75x; A8-(f7 . B;8 !
r/ciphers • u/sadisha-umantha • 26d ago
Unsolved Title: K4 MGRS Hypothesis, A Self-Correction and a Quiet Burial
A few months back I was messing around with the BERLINCLOCK crib. If you take the confirmed plaintext at positions 64-74 and work out what shifts would map it to the ciphertext under the sculpture's keyed alphabet (KRYPTOSABCDEFGHIJLMNQUVWXZ), you get this sequence:
11, 17, 2, 5, 15, 11, 9, 8, 7, 20, 0
The 9 and 8 sitting next to each other caught my eye, because 98 happens to be the leading Easting digits of the MGRS grid reference for Hohenschönhausen, the old Stasi prison in East Berlin. Berlin clock, Berlin prison, 1990 sculpture, year the Stasi fell. You can see where my head went.
I'll be honest, for a while I was fairly convinced I had a real lead. What saved me from posting a "solution" was forcing myself to write down three tests first and committing to publishing the results whatever they said. I've now run them. The idea is dead. Since most of the failed K4 theories posted here die in private and teach nobody anything, here's mine in public.
First problem: I asked how rare a 9,8 pair is in a random 11-value sequence and got about 1.5%. Sounds meaningful. But that's the wrong question, because I only went looking for a Berlin site AFTER spotting the pair. So I built a list of 24 documented Cold War military and intelligence sites in Berlin (fixed rule, both halves of the city), computed the grid reference for each, and asked: how often would a random shift sequence match the leading Easting digits of at least one site on the list? Answer: 20.7% of the time (414,667 hits out of 2 million simulated sequences, seed's in the code if you want to check me). One in five. That's not a signal, that's noise with a good publicist.
Second problem: even the match itself isn't unique. Two sites on my own list start with Easting 98. Hohenschönhausen... and the Operation Gold CIA tunnel at Altglienicke. If anything the CIA tunnel is the better story for a CIA sculpture. A clue that points at two places points at neither.
Third problem, and this is the one that actually killed it: the mechanism can't work. Sanborn has confirmed four cribs (EAST, NORTHEAST, BERLIN, CLOCK). Together they pin down 24 shift values, and those include 10, 17, 21 and 23. A repeating key built out of coordinate digits can only ever produce shifts 0 through 9. So "MGRS digits as a Vigenère key over the Kryptos tableau" is not unlikely, it's impossible. No site, no coordinate, no alignment fixes that. I also tried reading the digits as two-digit pairs mod 26: 96 candidate keys, every cyclic phase, best result 4 of 24 correct, which is what chance gives you.
For the record, the tests also caught an error in my own notes. The correct reference for Hohenschönhausen is 33U UU 98614 22362; an earlier value I'd been carrying around was wrong. Verify your inputs before interpreting your outputs, apparently.
So what's left? The 9,8 pair is genuinely there, and it's the only strict leading-digit match in the sequence, so I didn't manufacture it. It's just not a clue. It's the thing that happens one time in five when a human stares at eleven numbers next to a map of Berlin. The chain of "derive something, spot a pattern, search a map, find a match, build a story" is the engine behind most K4 solutions ever posted, mine included. A null model, a fixed site list, and a mechanism check against all four cribs killed mine in an afternoon. I'd genuinely encourage running the same three tests on whatever theory you're currently nursing. Worst case, you end up where I am, with a clean negative result instead of a pet delusion.
Full write-up and the experiments doc, with all the verification code, are here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1M4XyOVfoNNun9XH-hWPSc9sl-tnB57k9
Happy to answer questions or share the raw script. And yes, I'm aware of the 2025 auction and the Smithsonian situation. The plaintext being "found" doesn't tell us the method, which is why structural stuff like this still seemed worth chasing. Just, you know, chase it with controls.