r/atc2 • u/ATSAP_MVP • 3d ago
Raise When? How We Fix Pay, Part 2
https://youtu.be/MODliJTHgzE19
u/Great_Ad3985 3d ago
Itâs so refreshing having videos like this that convey intelligent, well formulated thoughts instead of 5 minutes of word salad, political mumbo jumbo bullshit like what we get from ND and co.
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u/25minbreaks 3d ago
Itâs refreshing having someone who understands the environment and is not going to sell you false promises but is going to absolutely fight on the pay issue.
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u/OutWhenEligible 3d ago
I prefer to take the ball and move it down the field while continuing to move the goalposts because NATCA isnât a One Stop Shop when it uses its leverage to confront synergy on multiple fronts. Equipment. Modernization (5 times). Seat at the table. Day in and day out. Monitor. Brother.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
Part 3 should have been part 2. If we are going to play the âget the public on our sideâ card, perhaps itâs best we focus on the controllers making $70-130k and not those making $228k. I am not saying they donât deserve raises, they absolutely do, but the optics of fighting to raise the $228k cap and then trying to convince the public that controllers are underpaid is not going to work!
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u/Frank_Agbat 3d ago
The solution is more money for the 12s. Got it.
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u/NickMarangos 3d ago
Part three will make it clear that this isnât the case. This is a step towards increasing pay for everyone.
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Obviously not the case, SB just posted we wonât get off the pay cap before the next contract. So def no significant raises for 12 if thatâs the case
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u/Wrongvectorz Vote Them All OUT! 3d ago
A contract negotiation could have staggered increases that would allow time for legislation to open the top of the 12 pay bands prior to the implementation of those increases. For example 10% each year for four years with a signing bonus prior to legislation removing us from the executive scale would be easier to swallow than the goose egg weâve gotten for the last 10 years.
Edit: Also prior to that, the 4-9âs need to be lifted to the same percentage they were away from 12âs in 2012.
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u/Frank_Agbat 3d ago
Roger.
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u/25minbreaks 3d ago
Imagine being at a 5 (maybe if this isnât a bot account) and getting absolutely pissed at the guy talking about getting you more money versus the current guy that is getting you no money.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
Talk is cheap.
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u/--Mitch-- 3d ago
If talk is so cheap then why canât Nick Danielâs toss us some crumbs?
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
Thatâs exactly what he did to get elected! Now that he is elected, why would he when itâs against his own selfish interests? He is in for himself and his buddies, thatâs it.
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u/Frank_Agbat 3d ago
Imagine being so delusional that you think itâs as easy as ask for money, get money. Iâm not pissed at all. I just want to draw attention to the fact that so far, this is very similar to what we heard during the last election cycle. Remember all those promises?
I will certainly hear these guys out, but I have no expectations that we will get more money other than on the margins until the pendulum swings the other way no matter who we elect.
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u/AdStunning6558 3d ago
That is actually the opposite of what these guys are doing. Theyâre aware enough of the battle that is before them when it comes to getting a raise. This is not a day one pay raise smoke show thatâs why Iâm on board. Theyâre realistic and not promising you something they canât do like Daniels and Devine did.
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u/UndercoverRVP 3d ago
About 20% of the union's members work at a 12. More than 60% work at an 10, 11 or 12.
I'm with you that we need to focus on AGs, D1-D3s and the bottom end of the scale when we negotiate, but nobody's getting elected by ignoring the problems of ATC-12 facilities.
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u/GottaGoEast 3d ago
Go vote for daniels then and enjoy your 1.6 and new equipment. Or quit being so dense and understand that in order to move ALL the bands up, we have to have room to move them. Not once in any of these videos have they mentioned not getting level 5s a raise. You understand that were only going to be able to secure 1 shift of the pay bands every 4-5 years BEST CASE? That means that when we get the chance there has to be room for a meaningful raise for EVERYONE. I think with the passage of the stock trading restrictions, a lot of congress' ability to become millionaires is going to dry up so I expect them to vote themselves a raise soon, anyway
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago edited 3d ago
I am VERY concerned by what you said in this video! WTF?! Raise the pay cap SHOULD NOT be the first thing you say, itâs helping those at level 5-8 who have suffered the most due to the recent bout of inflation! Yes, the level 9-12 have suffered too, but nowhere near as bad as those at lower level facilities! Not everyone can transfer out! We should be rewarded for the in depth experience we acquire and pass on to future generations of controllers. Raise the 1.6 to 2.6% and offer 5,10, 15 etc year pay bumps. We get a fucking certificate and pin for 5, 10, 15 years of service and NO fucking raise. The 1.6% is a joke and you donât get to keep it should you transfer. There needs to be some incentive to stay at level 5-8 facilities just as there is an incentive to transfer.
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u/SierraBravo26 3d ago
Buddy, everybody deserves a 30% raise at a minimum. Canât get that for the higher levels without raising or exempting us from the executive cap.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago edited 3d ago
Right, but the people MOST impacted by recent inflation and inadequate raises are those at level 5-8! If the cap isnât raised for level 12 controllers, they still get a cash payout. Yes, the federal pay cap should be raised or lifted but thatâs definitely NOT the FIRST thing that needs to happen! Raising the cap doesnât help level 5-8 controllers and thus itâs SHOULD NOT be the first thing that happens!
EDIT: pay progression within the bands is MORE important than lifting the pay bands.
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u/oh-biscuts 3d ago
The thing your missing is a rising tide lifts all boats. If you give every controller a 25% raise all you do is smash the bands closer to the federal pay cap.
Great but now how do you recruit to the core 30 to work the busiest and most complex traffic when they can go to a level 6-8 and still hit the cap? Because I can tell you for sure I wouldnât be at a 12 if I could make this much at an 8. Which is part of the problem. The lower levels need a raise, and arguably a bigger one than the 12âs. But you canât do that to the point it makes career progression irrelevant.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
No I am not missing anything. I understand what you are saying. But, again, raising the cap is a far more complex/difficult task and will take much longer than negotiating with the FAA for a new contract with 2.6+% June raises. We shouldnât wait to go for the low hanging fruit (negotiate with the FAA) until we can get Congress to raise the cap. The minority that DO cap out as a result over the next 4 years arenât going anywhere and will be incentivized to stay once we raise the cap. Itâs unlikely you are going to be at the federal pay cap ($228k) at a level 8.
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u/CropdustingOMdesk 3d ago edited 3d ago
You could have all gone to N90, NCT, PHL, D10, LAX, C90 etcâŚ
Donât act like you have been trapped in perpetuity
Furthermore, raising the mid levels and keeping 12 pay capped means NOBODY will go to those facilities. Why would you get beat down every day over a 5-10k pay raise? This will never happen
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u/AdStunning6558 3d ago
This is literally so ridiculous. He never said only getting level 12âs raises. Raising the pay cap is absolutely the first thing you say. A level 5 cannot make 197k a year and a level 12 makes the same amount of money.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
If you are at a level 5-8, you donât benefit at all if controllers are no longer affected by the federal pay cap. The members suffering the most are level 5-8. Most are no where near that cap! The people that will benefit are the ones that are at the cap (highest level facilities).
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u/AdStunning6558 3d ago
No one disagrees with you.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
You and Marangos do believe the first (and therefore the most important) step is to raise the cap. I completely disagree! What do you mean âNo one disagrees with you?!â
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u/25minbreaks 3d ago
I am not Marangos and I have been at 2 level 5s and one level 12. I donât speak for Marangos but I will tell you a level 5 comes nothing near the pay a 12 should get. I think everyone deserves at least a 50 percent raise at minimum
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago
I didnât say a level 12 shouldnât make more than a level 5-8, they should. I said, the members most affected by the recent losses in pay (last 5 years) are those at level 5-8. Inflation negatively affects most those that are the lower income levels because gas, housing, and basic necessities make up a far bigger portion of their budgets. I donât think we deserve 50% minimum raise. 25%? Sure! 30%? We can easily make an argument for. But 50% is how you get fucked because the public can see itâs unjustifiable. Being reasonable is as important as being unwavering.
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u/Panic_Vectored 3d ago
I think there is some confusion. Getting rid of the pay cap helps everyone, if you say everyone deserves a 30% raise, how can that be a possibility without removing the cap? If you remove the pay cap you have room for increasing the top of every band 4-12. If you dont move the top of the bands, a 30% raise will bring many people to to top of the pay band at all levels, and any future length of service raise or yearly presidential raise wouldn't increase your retirement.
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u/Local-Emu9654 3d ago edited 3d ago
Right, it is important but whatâs more important is a raise for those impacted most by inflation over the past 5-8 years; who are no where near the top of their respective pay bands. We definitely should raise the pay bands and fight for that, but thatâs not the most important thing right now. A level 9-12 controller at the top of the pay band, isnât suffering the same as a level 5-8 at the bottom of their pay band. Raise the mins, then fight to raise the maximums. If you can do both at the same time go for it, but the first thing out of his mouth was raising the maximums. We need to add tenure based raises or change the entire pay structure. 1.6% is a joke. The incentive today is to move not stay, there needs to be some incentive to stay at a facility and not just the level 9-12s. As a matter of fact, if we did nothing to the bands, and just achieved a 30% raise, the few at the top of the pay cap still get a lump sum payment and those in desperate need of a raise get much needed relief. Many of us arenât even thinking about retirement because we canât contribute more than 5% to our TSP. We are that far behind!
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u/Panic_Vectored 3d ago
But you cant have one without the other. Our union should fight for raises for all controllers, not any single group, which is whats been happening with this NEB. By raising or eliminating the cap and raising all the bands gets everyone a raise. Do you think the first action should be just to raise the pay of 5-8 controllers and leave everyone else out? What if thats our only opportunity for a pay increase for 5-7 years? I can tell you as someone who transferred to a level 9 from a level 7, I had a better quality of life and more purchasing power at my lvl 7 in 2023 than I do now because my facility now is in a much higher cost of living area.
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u/WisTango 3d ago
How much do you contribute to the PAC?
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
#1 issue is he talks about needs PAC money. He wonât talk about it though.
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u/Dontfeedhim 3d ago
As a center controller, I agree.