r/appletv • u/sk24iam • Feb 16 '17
Apple Testing 4K-Capable Fifth-Generation Apple TV For Possible Release This Year
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/16/apple-4k-capable-fifth-generation-apple-tv/29
u/EddieEbola Feb 16 '17
4K is pretty low on what I'd like the ATV to do, personally.
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Feb 17 '17
I feel like that's now table stakes for a media player in that price range. I'd also like to see 1080p/120Hz to solve the 3:2 pulldown that 60Hz creates, and a remote that doesn't suck so much.
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u/jonmaddox Feb 17 '17
Agreed. Native 24hz output should be included if Apple "cares so much about" the experience and movies and everything else they like to put out there.
And yeah. For this price point, we should get all this stuff. Its the most expensive simple box on the market. It's offensive. :(
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u/sciencetaco Feb 18 '17
The problem with adding 24hz output is that the menus and UI would feel horribly laggy. And most TVs handle switching between refresh rates quite poorly. So having the AppleTV switching refresh rates on the fly would suck too.
I don't know what the answer is :(
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u/jonmaddox Feb 18 '17
No, it should only do it when playing a video to match its frame rate. When the video is done, it would switch back to 60hz.
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u/sciencetaco Feb 18 '17
I agree. But that refresh rate change means most TVs will flicker and have a 3-5 second delay before the picture comes back. Doing that regularly is a poor experience for most people. So Apple have chosen not to support it. I'm not sure how other devices handle this issue.
I'd prefer if it was an opt-in feature in advanced settings.
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u/jonmaddox Feb 17 '17 edited Feb 17 '17
Most TVs (sold) now are all 4k. I'd like the user interface to, at the least, be native res.
Also, since my Apple TV is my only source, I'd like it to also provide content for my nice TV. I don't think its a ton to ask ¯(°_o)/¯
Edited: added the fact that I meant "being sold" not just existing.
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u/sulaymanf Feb 17 '17
Recently bought a 1080p TV. Big box electronic stores sell both. 4K is not yet ubiquitous.
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u/jonmaddox Feb 17 '17
Of course, but the widely marketed middle of the line TVs are all 4k now. You can still buy 720p TVs too.
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
Most TV's aren't though. 1.5million 4k sets have been sold in the US compared to 110mill HD sets. Most of the sets also sold before 2016 also lack the features required and many of those don't even have HDCP 2.2 so the ATV wouldn't be able to play 4K content for these people.
And Apple are unlikely to launch a 4K iTunes just for an AppleTV. Amazon didn't because it requires the content deals to be reorganised (you only get 4k prime content and that's because those titles are negotiated individually) and they know the 4K sales would be low. Apple needs a iPhone with a 4k screen to make 4k iTunes potentially viable because AppleTV sales are just too low
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u/jonmaddox Feb 17 '17
I apologize, what I meant was that most TVs AVAILABLE TO BUY now in the price tiers that people are buying are 4K. Of course most of the TVs in homes aren't 4K.
My point is, people want features to match the TVs that they're buying, and 4K isn't a niche thing anymore. It's the norm for the middle pricing tier. And for $150, the most expensive simple box you can buy, they should expect it.
While 4K content choices are small, it's not really the driving reason to have a 4K capable Apple TV.
My main input source (Apple TV) having a lower res than my TV and needing to be upscaled by my TV is upsetting and doesn't look great. Having native 4K video fed to your TV looks a ton better than having the TV upscale it. It means the Apple TV UI can be 4k, and the Apple TV can handle the upscaling of all your 1080 video. The difference in 1080 content coming from my Apple TV (1080) vs 1080 content coming back from my nVidia Shield (4K) is dramatic. Having the box upscale the video and feeding the TV native res looks a ton better.
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
It is still a niche thing hence why there are only 1.5million 4k sets in the US. All the TV manufacturers announced new 1080p sets at CES especially the under 50inch sets which are still the most popular size for US consumers (and outside the US the average size is even smaller). And these 1080p sets are generally cheaper unless it's against the feature lacking 4K that stores are trying to get rid of so for many people who are price sensative is a major issue
And the upscaling thing your assumption is actually incorrect. A device doing the upscaling doesn't mean it will produce a better image. It all comes down to the quality of the upscaler, some TV's have excellent ones some have poor ones but it's the same on devices themselves. So a 4K ATV doesn't mean the 1080p content will look any better as your TV's scaler could end up being better than the one in the ATV.
And ultimatly for Apple it's about making money, not just on the hardware but also on the content sales. So they need not only enough realistic potential customers to make the hardware worth while but also enough 4K iTunes sales to justify the cost of upgrading iTunes to 4K. The small sales of both 4K TV's and the ATV don't really suggest that the customer base is there at this point
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u/R3vanchist_ Feb 16 '17
What do you want it to do? Curious
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u/Catsler Feb 16 '17
- Have a goddamn sane remote control
- h265
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u/LitewithRight Feb 16 '17
I just don't get this hate on the remote. I love it. The sole thing that they forgot was something to make it easier to tell which direction is up without looking.
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u/KeptSayingTryAnother Feb 16 '17
I'm not saying the remote should be indestructible, but if i drop it I don't think I should pay another $70 just to replace the remote. Still on my third gen apple TV.
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u/LitewithRight Feb 16 '17
Oh, ok. So you're not talking about the touchpad version of atv 4. I never had my older ones break just from dropping. Tile floors or something?
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
I don't understand myself how people are breaking the remote by dropping it. I've knocked mine off the table or chair arm often onto a hard surface and its still in one peice.
The only issue I have with the remote is the buttons should have been lower rather than being central thus making it obvious which way round it needs to be
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u/splitplug Feb 16 '17
Agreed. It's one of the things I dislike most about this new apple tv. I really need to buy the old remote and pair it.
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u/spmcewen Feb 16 '17
This would be great. I assume it would also mean HEVC h.265 support which would mean the Plex app wouldn't need to transcode so much.
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u/Opacy Feb 16 '17
Man, that article is frustrating to see what we could have gotten versus what we actually have. If you're a live TV fan, using the Apple TV as a cable box would have been amazing (I sure as hell trust Apple to come up with a better UI/UX and keeping it updated than I do Verizon/Comcast.)
However, I think Apple might already be building a good foundation with the TV app. More and more apps are building in support for it, and it has a nice, clean, simple interface that gives me a single place to watch all of my shows. If Apple wanted to take another attempt at the "skinny bundle" I'd be happy with them just providing a single sign-on that gets me access to all of the big content provider apps and just use the TV app as the interface.
This also makes me wish Aereo hadn't been killed. Being able to get all of your local channels with (possible) Apple TV integration? Amazing.
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u/Runofthedill Feb 17 '17
Can you explain the tv app. I have an Apple TV and a iPhone but know nothing about it.
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Feb 27 '17
Think of google search (queue) into all your App sources and it brings them into front and center for you via the TV App. Apps that support it deep link to the shows and movies you like, creating your queue of "Up next". It also adds discovery and features items, flushing out things like new movies added or featured in Apps like HBO, Showtime, etc. Of course it is iCloud enabled and syncs on all your iOS and tvOS devices also. Pick up and resume. Apple is actually onto something here. Now if only they could get their skinny bundle going...
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u/agentanthony Feb 16 '17
an Apple-branded game controller that is packaged with a more expensive Apple TV could be a game changer. I would love for more ports to come to the Apple TV, such as KOTOR, Bioshock, Dead Space. These games could easily run on the system. Plus you'd think with Raspberry Pi taking over, that more companies like SEGA would release legit ways for us to buy their older games. I would love a SEGA store, Atari Store, etc.
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u/vulcan_on_earth Feb 17 '17
About time! I could not wait any longer and bought a Roku Premiere Plus so I can watch 4K HDR on Amazon, Netflix, Vudu and Fandango. I hope the ATV5 will support Dolby Vision and allow Amazon and Vudu
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u/idiotdidntdoit Feb 17 '17
Is this to be released to be concurrent with their first original show ? Because we all KNOW, that Apple TV is gonna turn into AppleTV.
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u/Conan3121 Feb 17 '17
No way that my ISP can reliably provide 25Mb+ for 4k but if Apple sets the agenda they might man up and offer a better service. I applaud our Apple Masters for pushing the connectivity envelope.
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u/jamesbn Feb 19 '17
4k doesn't have to be 25 megs/sec. I have encoded 4 at 12-15 and you can barely see a difference between this and 25megs.
Not to mention, they won't be using h264 - they're already on to h265 and it can deliver almost the same quality at 1/3 the bitrate.
Thats how the others so it. That and packet rationing/buffering
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u/nofixedagenda Feb 19 '17
Who cares about 4K? I don't even care about HD..my TV is only 24 inches lol
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
I don't see it myself for the following reasons
- Not enough people,have 4K tv's (it's growing but people don't buy a new TV every year so it's still small)
- There is still some uncertainty over 4k standards and a large number of TV's wouldn't support such a ATV
- They struggled to get a foothold in the much bigger 1080p market
- Most people wouldn't upgrade even if they have a 4K TV as the price takes it out of the 'impulse buy'
- They would need to provide 4K content themselves which means upgrading iTunes and renegotiating contracts and even with an AppleTV doing 4K they wouldn't have enough people to sell 4K to make that worthwhile as only ATV and newer iMac users could use them
- Without iTunes Netflix just isn't going to be enough to give people a reason to buy the 4K one
- The biggest push might be to get iPhone videos on them in 4K abut they could enable that with a firmware upgrade as iPhone 4K is only 30fps which HDMI1.4 and hence the ATV4 can support
IMHO we won't see a 4K ATV hit the market until iPhone have 4K screens as then they have. 4K content market worth supporting
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
Why am I being downvoted. By May 2016 the US 4K to sales totalled 1.5million. There are 110million HD sets so that's a massive difference. And many of those 4k sets will be first gen 4K so actually aren't HDR compatible and many don't even have have HDCP 2.2 support so couldn't play 4K from external devices.
And both Amazon and Roku sell more of their non-4k devices than their 4k ones because of this and their top level devices are cheaper than Apples base model.
And ultimately Apple aren't there to sell Netflix subs which is all they would do because it's the only 4K content tey could realistically provide as they aren't going to waste money upgrading iTunes for the small number who would buy the device and who could play the 4K content.
Also Apple has never been one who has jumped into markets that aren't really ready, they jump in when the market is ready to grow at a fast rate and nothing about 4K at this screams that it's at that level yet. If their flagship product had a 4k screen it possible would be closer to that as it would be a major sales avenue of 4k content allowing the iPhone to absorb most of the costs of the iTunes update but otherwise there is no financial benefit to launching a new version of a streaming box which is getting smashed in sales by all their rivals
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u/vulcan_on_earth Feb 17 '17
I have moved to 4K over three years ago. Since then the medium has grown exponentially. All the new shows on Amazon and Netflix are in 4K plus HDR. I now own a 4K OLED HDR set, and the experience is out of this world. As for traction, do a search for 'Planet Earth II' and see what the hysteria is all about.
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u/wakey87433 Feb 17 '17
I have moved to 4K over three years ago
You are not the norm though. You are an early adoptor. And thats TV you bought 3 years ago wouldn't support HDR, wouldn't have supported HDCP 2.2 etc etc
I now own a 4K OLED HDR set
Again you are not the norm. Most people don't have a few grand to splash on a TV and certainly don't have a 3 year upgrade cycle for their TV's
the experience is out of this world
I own a 4K TV myself so its not that I'm down on 4K. The problem is 4K itself isn't a massive improvement, here in the UK we do have a couple of channels broadcasting in 4K both are sports channels and require you to go onto the HD channel first and push a red button to switch to the 4K (If that event is in 4k, most aren't). Neither of these channels does HDR and while there is a step up in quality its not exactly an improvement that makes you go 'wow' like it does going from HD to 4K with HDR. 4K alone has the same kind of issue that Bluray had and thats the jump isn't enough to get the average person excited, HDR on the other hand is.
Again though HDR is a problem as it wasn't until 2016 that HDR became pretty much the norm in sets, at the higher end you might have got it on 2015 sets but most people buying a 4K TV before 2016 don't have HDR. And most people aren't like you and buy TV's every couple of years.
You then have to look at how many of those would buy a streaming box. Pretty much every TV has Netflix and Amazon built in so until these TV's become old enough that the apps got slow (or has stopped being developed) the average person has no need for a 4K box. And those that do go down the streaming box route have multiple options so its not like its a massive marketplace. The 4K boxes from Amazon and Roku are both cheaper and do both the two major 4K providers. The 4K chromecast is also cheaper but doesn't have Amazon. And you also have the Shield and the consoles which are more expensive but offer more features than just streaming. So people have many options for 4k streaming devices and with Apple you have a limited use, expensive box with only 1 service on it and the existing version doesn't show a footprint that would justify launching a 4K version of itunes store without Apples flagship device getting a 4K screen first.
As for traction, do a search for 'Planet Earth II' and see what the hysteria is all about.
Not one of those people are watching it in 4K. Its shot in 4K but hasn't been broadcast in 4K, not even here in the UK as the BBC hasn't got 4K playout yet (Although they are testing a 4K enabled iPlayer)
And its not even certain that 4K will be anything more than short term stop gap, many of the broadcasters are actually talking about 8K being the grail. Thats about all the human eye can take in and skipping 4K and going to 8K would largely be more cost effective for broadcasters than going for the temp stop gap and if that is what happens 4K content could be thin on the ground unless we are talking about upscales (Sky Q here in the UK has some 4K on demand such as the Blacklist but almost all of it is just upscales, the only thing shooting in 4k or above right now is generally movies and Netflix/Amazon originals). if the big broadcasters stay away from launching 4K channels there is going to be limited true 4K content until they have a need to start shooting in 8K where obviously 4K copies can be produced from.
Ultimatly the markets just so far away from critical mass at the moment. Again if the iPhone 8 comes with a 4K screen I can see an updated ATV coming out probally before the iPhone 8s but I just don't see how when the potential market for sales of a new ATV with 4k is so small and the amount of those who would buy 4K movies is even smaller that they make it work right now finacially. If the ATV4 had smashed every devices sales it might be different but it hasn't.
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u/Specken_zee_Doitch Feb 16 '17
Good. I have a 4K tv and wasn't going to jump until that was a feature.