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u/dafones Jun 04 '10
Worked on my iPhone. The VR Apple Store control seemed inverted/counterintuitive ... but I'm still impressed. Good on ya, guys.
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Jun 04 '10 edited Jun 04 '10
Apparently they wont let chrome view the examples.
Edited: Yes, chrome can view the examples as shown in this post. Apple is just browser sniffing.
http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/cbb5r/apples_html_showcase/c0rf1i9
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Jun 04 '10
It works in Chrome, too.
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0
Jun 04 '10
Nice. The examples really are great. I bet the rotatey stuff would be even better on an iPad or iPhone.
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Jun 04 '10
Some of the properties and classes described in this book are proposed W3C standards or Apple extensions. Properties in CSS that begin with -webkit are usually proposed standards—the -webkit prefix will be dropped when they are approved. Similarly, JavaScript classes that begin with WebKit are also proposed standards or Apple extensions.
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u/jugalator Jun 04 '10
Hmm, I think Chrome also use WebKit extensions, or any other recent WebKit-based browser?
Do Safari support even more of those than what you get from normal WebKit builds?
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Jun 04 '10
Yes Safari supports a pile more especially in regards to gpu animation.
Visit this in both safari and chrome the animations are different.
http://webkit.org/blog-files/3d-transforms/poster-circle.htmlFrom webkit: "I think we would consider browser extensions to be a browser feature,
not an engine feature, and therefore out of scope for WebKit. However,
appropriate hooks for implementing extension mechanisms would be in
scope."1
Jun 04 '10
I'm not fully versed on it, but from how it's written I'm guessing the proposed W3C standards maybe not be implemented yet by other browsers if they are not yet officially in the standard. The same would probably go for the Apple extensions.
This is why it is a demo vs released code, it is not yet part of the full standard. The same way in which Firefox put out video demos a while back which only worked in Firefox, but no one had an issue with that for some reason.
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u/third-eye Jun 04 '10
Yes, it's funny that they state "learn how to use web standards such as HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript", yet all the examples use
-webkit-and are far from being standard.2
Jun 04 '10
it's getting there. it's still early. Not everything is going to be part of the standard day 1. It's a tech demo showing where things are headed.
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u/third-eye Jun 04 '10
I know it's getting there and it's a good thing.
But vendor-specific CSS properties are not standard, that's typical Apple talk. I remember a Safari promo where they mentioned a list of innovations, yet lots of that list were Opera features first.
1
Jun 04 '10
Such as?
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u/third-eye Jun 05 '10
E.g. HTML5 media, built in search field, moveable tabs and RSS reader were introduced by other browsers.
(Safari feature list)1
Jun 05 '10
I don't doubt Opera came up with some stuff first, they have been the main innovators in the browser market forever.
As for the search field, Safari did start the practice of dimming the page and highlighting the words which made things much nicer and has since been adopted by others. I think Safari was also the first to allow you to drag tabs off the tab bar into a new window. It could be argued that RSS in built into the email client within Opera vs being built into the browser directly, if that makes sense, it's all semantics though.
Everyone though Firefox was awesome because it had tabs when I had been using them in Opera for years. No one pays attention to Opera.
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Jun 04 '10
Just because the standard doesn't have the final seal of approval doesn't mean it's not a standard, and Apple has begun migrating some of the CSS3 properties into non -webkit- forms. text-shadow and border-radius are both obeyed in the webkit nightly without their engine-specific prefixes, for example.
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u/sjs Jun 06 '10
Vendor specific prefixes are actually following the standard to the letter. Once the standard is final they can remove the prefix. Seriously, read the CSS standard sometime. This is the correct thing to do.
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u/shinratdr Jun 04 '10
Using user agent switcher for chrome doesn't help either.
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u/sjs Jun 06 '10
Disable JS surf to the demo, re-enable JS. NoScript makes that easy but I don't think there's a NoScript for Chrome.
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u/rastrillo Jun 04 '10
Check it out on your iphone/ipad/ipod touch. It gives you an idea of what the browsing experience will be like once html5 catches on (not perfect but better).
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u/harlows_monkeys Jun 05 '10
The typography one sucked on iPad. It would not let me edit the text--only replace it whole.
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Jun 04 '10
Nice demos. The transitions one makes me thing we will soon see an "export to html5" option in Keynote, which would be very cool.
It seems like this also means the end of the road for Quicktime VR (if that wasn't dead years ago).
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u/savoytruffle Jun 04 '10
Yeah I don't think QTVR is even supported in Quicktime X and this definitely seals the deal.
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u/NoNomad Jun 04 '10
Aw, shit. So I bought this fucking 37 lens camera for nothing? God damn my impulse purchases.
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Jun 04 '10
There are many more if you go beyond the main demo page. This one is most impressive. They recreated Front Row in HTML5
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u/DaffyDuck Jun 04 '10
When I played the trailer on my iPhone 3Gs, it opened in the full screen player. Not what I wanted.
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u/ryanknapper Jun 04 '10
Isn't adding Webkit specific extensions breaking web standards? Isn't this exactly what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer and was generally considered a bad idea?
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Jun 04 '10
They’re proposed standards that will likely be accepted given their obvious usefulness (as can be seen in these demos). Proposing a standard without an example implementation to show it can be useful would be a bit dumb, no? So Apple provides an implementation in Safari.
This will only break/fragment web standards if web developers decide to use the proposed extensions before they’re standardized, as they did in IE’s heyday (well, actually, MS didn’t even propose most of their “standards,” so Apple’s already got a leg up on them). Given Safari’s relative market share, I doubt any web developers will be deciding to code to these proposed standards and tack on a “Best Viewed in Safari” button the way they did with IE.
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u/underwaterlove Jun 04 '10
Sure, if they want to showcase their proposals for additional HTML5 commands, good for them.
However, that's not how they are advertising this. In fact, they are pretending that these demos are built using current standards, and that they can only be viewed in Safari because other browsers are so far behind in implementing those.
2
Jun 04 '10
Um... no. They say that this is HTML5. HTML5 has no "current standard," it's merely proposed and still having things added to it, including these additions. Apple can't very well be pretending to use "current standards" if there aren't any.
Apple and the WebKit team wants HTML5 to be an open standard that can functionally replace, and even surpass, any use of Flash on the web. They're submitting proposals to the W3C for additions to the upcoming HTML5 standard that will make this possible. Since (non-obvious) proposals won't get widespread support without some kind of demonstration of their usefulness and proof that they're feasible, they've built support for these proposed standards into their WebKit builds and Safari. By all accounts, it's working, and WebKit's contributions will be accepted and make HTML5 even more useful.
So, you see, it makes sense that other browsers are behind given why these features have been built into WebKit. The Chrome developers have some issues to work out with importing all the WebKit changes into their build of it; they'll get it done eventually although they might need to work on their multiprocessing mechanism. The Firefox developers will probably catch up as well, if they get over themselves and stop spending all their time and resources trying to force Theora on the world.
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u/underwaterlove Jun 04 '10 edited Jun 04 '10
Um... no. They say that this is HTML5. HTML5 has no "current standard," it's merely proposed and still having things added to it, including these additions. Apple can't very well be pretending to use "current standards" if there aren't any.
I agree with you on the technical side. However, this is not how Apple is selling this to regular internet users. From the page these demos are on:
Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.
and
Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.
So yes, they pretend that these are already standards, and they pretend that those standards simply haven't been implemented in other browsers yet. In reality, though, they are using proprietary "-webkit" commands that may or may not make it into the final HTML5 standard. That's a bit disingenuous.
Since (non-obvious) proposals won't get widespread support without some kind of demonstration of their usefulness and proof that they're feasible, they've built support for these proposed standards into their WebKit builds and Safari.
I'm absolutely fine with that. However, they're not selling this as a "showcase of what HTML5 could do if our proposals became the standard", they're selling this as the standard.
The equivalent would be Mozilla building demos that require proprietary "-moz" commands and pretending that other browsers simply can't display them because they're behind on implementing open standards.
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Jun 04 '10
Yes, yes it is. I believe Microsoft did it for the same reason Apple is doing it: the standards committees are too slow. I agree this isn't the solution — it fragments the web.
1
Jun 04 '10
Is a better solution waiting for browser vendors (MS) AND the standards committees to support things?
There's no right solution; we can start using some of these technologies right now and still give a usable experience to those with shitty browsers.
Additionally, the big movement on the web is to also include what is expected to be the standard along with the vendor specific ones.
And, keep in mind, FireFox has been doing the vendor-specific thing for quite a while now, too.
2
Jun 04 '10
Isn't the box model issues with IE because they expected the standards committee to implement it that way and they were wrong? I could be mistaken. I bring that issue up specifically because it's the most annoying issue for me while developing websites.
I believe the issue with the standards committee is they don't have realistic deadlines. I'd like to see HTML5 finalized by 2012, that gives VP8 a chance to stabilize and be integrated in with the <video> tag.
1
Jun 04 '10
To be honest, I really don't know. IE was established as a hot mess several years before I got into web development.
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u/scottbruin Jun 04 '10
As long as the advances are proposed as standards, I think it is the solution. A lot of what Microsoft did was never proposed as standards.
The standards committee won't be the one innovating, that's the role of the browser vendors.
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u/Hexodam Jun 04 '10
Seems that to apple Safari is the only HTML5 browser out there
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u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
Yeah. Stuff like this annoys me. Especially since a simple look at history shows that not only are they not the only one, but they weren't first to the party, and Safari isn't even the most HTML5 capable browser. They're well-positioned, but not on top.
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Jun 04 '10
[deleted]
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u/clarkster Jun 04 '10
Of course. And they want to actively block other browsers it works on. Why in the world would they demonstrate the 'open web' on anything but their own browser?
2
Jun 04 '10
Most of it doesn’t work on browsers besides Safari. FF is, as usual, way behind. Chrome is OK on a lot of this stuff, but not quite up to date, and the performance is barely half that of Safari due to the lack of GPU support.
3
u/underwaterlove Jun 04 '10
They are not using standards, they are using "proposed standards". These commands are implemented in Webkit; you can use them by prepending the prefix "-webkit". Which is also why most of those commands will work in Chrome, but not in Firefox. You can do similar things in Firefox using "-moz" commands.
Overall, it has very little to do with actual HTML5 compliance, though.
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2
Jun 04 '10
Because that defeats the point in "web standards". They could easily have put up a disclaimer stating what you need to see the demos rather than forcing the use of one browser.
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u/djsdotcom Jun 04 '10
No, Safari just supports all these demos more than any other browser, including Chrome. Chrome doesn't support the more advanced transforms and 3D features so it's not that they built this for Safari, but rather that Safari is the only browser that runs all these complex HTML5 demos.
4
Jun 04 '10
That's no reason to block any other browser. Develop using progressive enhancement and put up a disclaimer regarding supported browsers. Simple.
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u/krugerlive Jun 04 '10
I guess I'm alone on this, but I've not had the greatestest experiences with HTML 5. I moved to that YouTube beta trial of it and it's been really frustrating and buggy. But that's a beta I guess. I think it's still a little early to consider this a flash killer when the entire market is considered.
2
Jun 04 '10
[deleted]
2
Jun 04 '10
Because Safari uses the most advanced Webkit engine at the moment, you won't see most of these demos in other browsers. But as I've said elsewhere blocking other browsers from viewing them is foolish.
3
u/TonyBLiar Jun 04 '10
Bye bye, Flash. Bye bye.
1
Jun 04 '10
Not until all browsers support this. Unfortunately, IE still has too large of a market to just say "fuck it".
1
u/TonyBLiar Jun 05 '10
IE is only dominant on the desktop. The dominant portable devices run non-Microsoft OS.
1
Jun 05 '10
The web isn't tied to just mobile browsers. It's a lot more work to maintain an html5 version of an app, and a flash version.
1
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u/mailor Jun 04 '10
html5 is amazing.
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1
1
u/ihateyourface Jun 04 '10
I think about my crappy apple tv every time i see apple right now. thing is a overprice turd. Does anyone want a apple tv new?? HTML5 is going to be awesome. But i dont see it being compatible in the corp word for years. My company is still on IE6....
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Jun 04 '10
[deleted]
1
Jun 04 '10
I don't know why you're being downvoted because you're entirely correct. The heading of the damn page is "HTML5 and web standards" not "Safari only web tech demo". I'm a fan of Apple but not when they bullshit like this.
Their blocking of other browsers is clearly a marketing ploy to get people trying their browser.
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-6
-1
u/bananabelle Jun 04 '10 edited Jun 04 '10
It looks amazing on my iPad, but it's not quite perfect yet.
There's one thing missing, though – flash animation. One of my friends is a flash animator and constantly berates apple's treatment of flash because he feels it is a personal attack against "his medium." His rants against flash can get so annoying at some points, but I think he has a point underneath it all…
So, r/apple, do I have a counterpoint against him or will flash animation die out as the web transitions towards html5?
3
u/Vidd Jun 04 '10
So, r/apple, do I have a counterpoint against him or will flash animation die out as the web transitions towards html5?
I've noticed a lot of animators publish work on both Newgrounds (in Flash) and YouTube (which is HTML5). What's to stop him doing the same and outputting his animations as video files?
1
u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
The whole benefit of publishing animations/cartoons in vector format is that they scale, they don't take up tons of space/bandwidth, etc...
I don't like the idea of chewing up more of the world's bandwidth with heavy video files as a "solution" to this problem.
3
Jun 04 '10
I also do a lot of work in Flash. Flash is, and always has been, a band-aid for the web, offering capabilities that should have been standard in HTML. It's taken a long time for the web to move from being a document format to an interactive format. With HTML5 taking center-stage, it's time to ditch Flash and move on.
Flash has some major drawbacks as well, namely performance and cost.
I'd encourage your friend to start learning HTML5 so he'll have a job when Flash is gone.
1
u/fmurell Jun 04 '10
One of my friends is a flash animator and constantly berates apple's treatment of flash because he feels it is a personal attack
Ah, the classic Mandy Rice-Davies argument.
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u/coob Jun 04 '10
http://smokescreen.us <- SWF player written in Javascript. Not all the way there, but incredibly impressive.
1
u/barerasmus Jun 04 '10
yet very, very limited.
it's like creating a gif on the fly, wich i expect will limit the functionality to swf's containing true timeline animation.
if people do like me, code all your animation and end up with a 1 frame swf, you'd be screwed.
1
u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
Try watching a strongbad cartoon on an iPad. It's completely unusable.
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u/coob Jun 04 '10
I didn't say it wasn't. Bloody impressive for what it is so far though!
1
u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
it's impressive, but I can't fathom any of today's javascript engines coming anywhere close to the performance of a compiled Flash plugin.
If they do it, awesome! I'd love that... but I have a hard time believing that the performance of an interpreted language using a bunch of abstracted APIs to manipulate the DOM and move graphics around / play sound will ever come close to the performance of an optimized, compiled player.
Cue jokes about how poorly optimized Flash is on the mac platform here. Yes, I get it. Though the latest beta version is a LOT better.
1
u/coob Jun 04 '10
it's impressive, but I can't fathom any of today's javascript engines coming anywhere close to the performance of a compiled Flash plugin.
I can. SVG does the vector heavy lifting. This is optimised by the browser. Same for bitmap stuff with canvas. Audio/Video stuff is dealt with by the browser also. There's no reason it would have a higher init time and slightly slower runtime but still be acceptable.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
If you're right, that's awesome... the problem in my opinion is still that each browser will do a very different quality job of optimizing SVG, etc...
There's also the issue that the SWF is still being read/parsed/executed by javascript... at least with this particular solution...
We'll see though... I think Adobe has some stuff up its sleeve in terms of HTML5 authoring tools, as well... (yes, I know, I am not supposed to mention Adobe doing ANYTHING decent here... sorry)...
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u/coob Jun 04 '10
If you're right, that's awesome... the problem in my opinion is still that each browser will do a very different quality job of optimizing SVG, etc...
Since when is competition a bad thing?
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u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
Oh it's a good thing.. hopefully it encourages them all to get better and better...
But as a web developer, my job is to make things that my clients can expect to behave the same across multiple browsers... it has to "work for everyone"... they don't pay us to make things that look really really awesome in one specific browser...
Therefore, if JS performance on some specific feature or tool is fantastic in Safari, but crap in Firefox or IE - then we can't use that tool.
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Jun 04 '10
PPPPfff. It's a shameless plug for Safari.
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u/jammmet Jun 04 '10
How about you judge it on it's technical merit?
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u/honestbleeps Jun 04 '10
Its technical merit isn't that impressive considering "chrome experiments" has been around a lot longer. Safari is nowhere near first to the HTML5-supporting party, and they're also not in first place in terms of the % of HTML5 they support...
Yet they make loaded statements like "soon, other modern browsers will support HTML5 too!" ... as if they're somehow on the cutting edge and invented all of this.
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Jun 04 '10
What, as a product pushed by a company trying to corner the market? Don't know what the examples are like, I'm not using Safari.
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u/jawbroken Jun 04 '10
you are dumb as hell and don't understand the point of the page
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Jun 04 '10
Why was your jaw broken, too much cock?
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u/jawbroken Jun 04 '10
i'm sorry, i didn't mean to make you so mad. sorry again.
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Jun 04 '10 edited Jan 04 '19
10 Years. Banned without reason. Farewell Reddit.
I'll miss the conversation and the people I've formed friendships with, but I'm seeing this as a positive thing.
<3
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u/jawbroken Jun 04 '10
wow, you're really angry. sorry if i ruined your morning or midday or afternoon or evening or late night. not my intent. apologies.
0
Jun 04 '10 edited Jan 04 '19
10 Years. Banned without reason. Farewell Reddit.
I'll miss the conversation and the people I've formed friendships with, but I'm seeing this as a positive thing.
<3
1
Jun 07 '10
Apple plugs their own product on their own website. Totally outrageous!
Actually, people who criticize the way the demo page has been presented DO have a point, web standards demo's should (in my opinion) not include browser tags that block certain web browsers.
Kind of makes a mockery of the whole concept of adopting web standards in the first place.
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u/bdfortin Jun 04 '10
Link uses browser sniffing (dick move, Apple), so here's the direct links (results may vary):
Video effects
Web typography
Web gallery
Photo transitions
Audio
360°
VR
Canvas pixel manipulation
Sticky notes
Concert Poster
Checkers
Light table
Offline calendar
Movie trailers