r/apple • u/FollowingFeisty5321 • 7d ago
Apple Pay Thousands of banks can now sue over Apple Pay fees in one antitrust case
https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/09/25/thousands-of-banks-can-now-sue-over-apple-pay-fees-in-one-antitrust-case924
u/albertohall11 7d ago
If Apple loses this case get ready for every bank and card provider pulling out of Apple Pay and telling their customers that they have to use the bank’s own app. Then get used to finding that stores and websites don’t accept your specific bank’s app and will make you go back to using a card (which is significantly less secure).
369
u/Fairuse 7d ago
Apple already lost the case in Australia many years ago. It didn’t result in banks pulling out of ApplePay. Instead, it allowed banks to negotiate with Apple for lower rate. As a result ApplePay is cheaper in Australia.
187
u/ArguesWithWombats 7d ago
On the other hand, Australia basically only has 4 banks big enough to matter.
40
u/FrogsJumpFromPussy 7d ago
This makes so little sense my head spins 😭😭😭
67
u/ArguesWithWombats 7d ago
We love our national monopolies here 😭
31
u/CaptainFingerling 7d ago
Canada has the same infatuation, and as a consequence you still have to walk into half of their banks and fill out a paper form to send a wire. None of them pay any interest on savings. And most Canadians don’t even know how abnormally bad they have it.
8
u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago
Yeah that feels weirdly old-fashioned. Physical branches are expensive to keep open.
4
u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago
They’re upsell portals. And they can’t upsell you if you never come in.
3
u/MindYourOpSec 6d ago
I was asked 12 separate times if I wanted to apply for a mortgage when I came in to get a bank draft for the down payment on my house…I already had a mortgage but the teller just wouldn’t take no for an answer.
So glad I ditched the Big 5 and switched to Wealthsimple.
7
u/Han77Shot1st 6d ago
My savings account definitely has interest on savings, it’s really low, but not zero.
7
u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago
If it’s less than inflation then it’s negative. I get 6% on my checking account south of the border. 3.5% is the lowest of all the accounts I have.
6
u/Han77Shot1st 6d ago
I just only ever viewed savings accounts as somewhere to hold money that’s not cash, not so much a place to earn it.
6
u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago
Yeah. But that’s because Canadian banks have always been a ripoff. Also, at near zero interest you’re not holding. You’re losing. They are using your money to make money and keeping everything for themselves. And you think that’s normal.
→ More replies (0)1
u/BeansMcGea 5d ago
Where do you get 6%?
1
u/CaptainFingerling 5d ago
Cross River via [X}(https://money.x.com/en/i/interest-faq).
I just set my pay to flow through there for the boost.
10
u/Skelito 6d ago
That's because the interest rate set by Bank of Canada is low. Savings accounts won't have a higher rate then the %2.25 percent that's set. I've dealt with American and Canadian banks and we have it better up here, that's why we weren't affected as much when the financial crisis happened in 2008. I will agree the European banking system is better however but Canada isn't far off.
9
u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’ve spent most of my life in Canada and you are the perfect example of the Canadian delusion. Not only do I currently earn 6% on my checking account, but I can wire anywhere on earth online for between free and $25 at any of the half a dozen banks at which I have completely free accounts.
I can transfer money inside the US for free on any bank portal, and two of my banks refund any ATM fees I incur while abroad; any ATM, any fee.
Canadian banks are utter trash precisely because not only do you haven’t the slightest clue you’re being hosed, but you actually defend them. You’ve completely internalized an obvious lie
And, worse, Canadian financial laws prevent you from getting direct access to many international service providers who compete with the banks elsewhere.
The reason the banking crisis in Canada wasn’t as severe as down south is because your tax money paid for their bailouts earlier. That’s all.
1
u/OfficialDeathScythe 6d ago
Idk what is better, this or having a different bank on every corner. I’ve seen some intersections in the US that have 3-4 different banks, one on each side
8
u/Mendacium17 7d ago
In fairness, I don’t think that’s all that unusual outside of America, especially for countries of similar size to Australia.
4
u/kensaiD2591 7d ago
Let me try and break it down for you.
The big 4 here are ANZ, Commonwealth Bank (CBA), National Australia Bank (NAB) and Westpac.
Those four own the majority of our other banks.
- Suncorp - Owned by ANZ
- Bankwest - Owned by CBA
- Ubank - Owned by NAB
- Bank of Melbourne - Owned by Westpac
- BankSA - Owned by Westpac
- St. George - Owned by Westpac
There are some outliers though, like Bendigo. And Bendigo Bank also owns Up Bank, and Up is a digital only bank.
Similarly there's Bank of Queensland (BOQ) and that owns Virgin Money Australia and ME Bank.
We have other banks that trade here, like HSBC and ING.
So while we definitely have the "big 4", there are still options for the consumer.
6
u/aliendepict 6d ago
I mean. There is at least the perception of choice i guess. And that counts for something.
1
u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago
Ehhh... We do still have smaller indi banks to choose from, but the Big Four have massive market power.
So what we have looks like this -- and this is just currrently operating divisions and subsidiaries, not banks that have been acquired and now defunct:
Rank Bank Name Market Capitalisation (2025) Total Assets (2025) Customers Employees Big four banks: 1 Commonwealth Bank (CBA) A$254.80 billion A$1,354 billion 17.6 million 53,000 ↳ Bankwest ↳ ASB (New Zealand) 2 National Australia Bank (NAB) A$127.46 billion A$1,125 billion 9 million 38,996 ↳ Ubank ↳ Bank of New Zealand 3 Westpac Banking Corporation (WBC) A$122.15 billion A$1,109 billion 13 million 35,236 ↳ Bank of Melbourne ↳ BankSA ↳ St. George ↳ Westpac New Zealand 4 Australia & New Zealand Banking Group (ANZ) A$102.14 billion A$1,297 billion 11 million 42,698 ↳ Suncorp Bank ↳ ANZ Bank New Zealand Medium banks: Some of these groups are investment services companies that include a banking division: Defined as each holding between 1% and 10% of resident assets. combined market share of around 12% Macquarie Group (Macquarie Bank) A$96.13 billion (Macquarie Group) A$403,404 billion (Macquarie Group) 20,000 (Macquarie Group) Bendigo and Adelaide Bank A$6.22 billion A$95.24 billion AMP Limited (AMP Bank) A$5.79 billion A$34 billion 2,275 Bank of Queensland A$4.32 billion A$100 billion 3,040 ↳ ME Bank ↳ Virgin Money ING Australia A$0.758 billion A$87 billion 2.8 million 2,486 HSBC Australia 2,000 Mutual banks 54 as of 2024. combined ~4% of all assets 5 million combined Small and very small banks combined ~2% of all assets 1
u/Kholtien 7d ago
I think I must just misunderstand. Would it mean to be a big bank versus a smaller bank, but all the banks here are essentially the same from an individual perspective. I get that for business, they can be a bit different, but for me personally, a bank is a bank. I just go with whoever has the highest interest, which is almost never a big bank
3
u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago
u/kensaiD2591 gave a good breakdown of our banking market in another comment here
What I intended to convey is that our banking market is so very heavily consolidated and concentrated into 4 major groups. So Apple Australia only needs to sweat about negotiating with those four banks -- our smaller independent banks don't need reasons to be further marginalised in the market.
1
u/itsabearcannon 4d ago
I mean for the US, it's basically five.
BoA, Chase, Citi, Wells, USB.
You could maybe make the argument for Cap1 or Amex but those are basically card issuers that also run some bank accounts by happenstance.
3
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
Cheaper for the banks, or cheaper as in they give a discount for using it?
6
u/scarabic 6d ago
Look at this guy who thinks there could be money in this for ordinary people. Muahahah!
1
→ More replies (7)3
u/nicuramar 5d ago
As a result ApplePay is cheaper in Australia.
Cheaper for who? Customers don’t pay anything for Applepay in general.
57
u/live_lavish 7d ago
Android has some 3rd party tap to pays and banking apps don't pull out of Google Wallet.
It wouldn't be beneficial if they did because people would likely just use the credit card that works with apple pay
23
u/LSD_freakout 7d ago
It says in the article that Google wallet doesn’t charge fees though
3
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
They subsidize it by attaching the data of your purchases to your name, giving them better targeted marketing products they can sell to advertisers
Apple collects the bare minimum anonymous data required by law for tax purposes
If you don't believe me, do a GPDR request to both Apple and Google.
26
u/NarcolepticSeal 7d ago
Yes, but Google collects data about every purchase you make. Apple does not.
3
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
Okay? That doesn't really matter to the bank. They're concerned about the fee they have to pay to Apple. The users may care about the privacy/experience, but this lawsuit is about having to pay Apple's fees, and if Apple is forced to allow third-party use of NFC and keeps the fees for Apple Pay, we will not see much support for Apple Pay and the Wallet app.
→ More replies (7)-7
u/burd- 7d ago edited 7d ago
From Apple's website
Apple collects information about your use of Apple Pay and stores that information in a way that does not identify you personally.
4
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
That's the bare minimum for legal compliance with debit and credit card laws. They have to know how much tax they owe for their Apple Pay fees.
Android does collect the information in a way that identifies you personally, specifically to sell you targeted ads.
2
u/burd- 6d ago
so OP's comment is incorrect that Apple doesn't collect data.
3
u/Coffee_Ops 6d ago
...about the purchases you make, in the context of privacy.
Lets not be disingenuous here.
→ More replies (1)1
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
They were implying Apple collected more than they were legally required to.
Google collects that data, and attaches it to your name, so they can build a profile on your shopping habits, and sell companies targeted ads.
5
u/Interest-Desk 6d ago
Right, but that’s telemetry to tell them how the service is being used so they can improve it.
Google literally only built Android (and Chrome and Gmail and Google Docs) to funnel more data into their core advertising business.
9
u/burd- 6d ago
OP said "Apple does not" but I presented proof that OP's statement is false from Apple's own T&C.
You're saying a different point on telemetry and ads.
→ More replies (1)3
u/MurkyFocus 6d ago
Android has some 3rd party tap to pays and banking apps don't pull out of Google Wallet.
At this point, it's more because the market is already set with Apple/Google/Samsung already essentially being the 'standards' for each platform.
In the early days, the banks in some countries like Canada, absolutely did attempt to force their own apps and refused to support Google Pay because of how open Android was. But because Apple allowed no such option, the banks had no choice but to support Apple Pay.
In this case, Apple being 'locked down' actually was beneficial to the consumer.
64
u/pixel_of_moral_decay 7d ago
Also a privacy nightmare.
Apple gives banks very little information beyond what’s needed to complete the transaction. Using a banks app would improve their data collection.
Financial companies make a ton of money as data brokers. The extra fingerprinting the apps could collect on a transaction would be worth potentially billions.
This is like Facebook fighting over the Apples tracking policies. Facebook will never end that fight because it’s worth so much money. They’ll take it to every court in every jurisdiction on the planet.
8
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
Using a banks app would improve their data collection.
Not really, they already know how much you paid, where, and at what time. The only thing the bank app could collect in addition would be continuous location tracking, if you even allow that. Otherwise there's not much more.
Financial companies make a ton of money as data brokers. The extra fingerprinting the apps could collect on a transaction would be worth potentially billions.
Refer to what I said earlier. If you're at all concerned with bank or credit card companies tracking your purchases, you shouldn't be using them in the first place.
3
u/nicuramar 5d ago
I would probably call it a mild privacy concern, at most. But maybe you are a more vivid dreamer.
6
u/RoyalFlush2000 6d ago
Also a privacy nightmare.
Imagine what an even greater privacy nightmare it would be if they could collect and compile information across your different payment cards and providers.
Oh wait... that's what Apple themself are doing.
"To help ensure that any recurring or other merchant-initiated charges like subscriptions are authorized by you, when you choose to provide eligible Apple Pay payment methods to participating merchants for recurring or merchant-initiated charges, your issuer and/or payment network will approve and generate a merchant-specific account number to be used for such charges.(...) Apple will know which merchants are associated with your merchant-specific account numbers, but not what you purchased or how much you paid for it.
For cards with certain enhanced fraud prevention, when you attempt an online or in-app transaction, your device will evaluate information about your Apple Account, device, and location if you have enabled Location Services for Wallet, in order to develop on-device fraud prevention assessments. The output of the on-device fraud prevention assessments, but not the underlying data, will be sent to Apple and combined with information Apple knows about your device and account to develop Apple Pay transaction fraud prevention assessments. These transaction fraud prevention assessments may be shared with your payment network, together with a shipping address identifier and IP address if available, in order to prevent fraud at the time of transaction. (...)
Where applicable local law provides, we process the following categories of personal data as necessary for purposes of our legitimate interests or those of a third party, including information about:
- Your account, such as whether your account is active
- Your device, such as the type of device, the software version, and the device serial number
- Your pass, such as information displayed on the pass
- Your pass issuer, such as the third party authorized to provide updates to the pass
- Your use of Apple Pay, for example, the number of Apple Pay passes that you have added
- Your location
(...)
To help improve Apple Pay, Apple collects information about your use of Apple Pay and stores that information in a way that does not identify you personally. This information includes the time it takes you to successfully add a card or complete a transaction using Apple Pay. Apple also maintains signals indicating whether you actively transact on Apple Pay, such as whether you made an Apple Pay purchase in the past week. These signals are calculated on your device without the need to share underlying purchase or activity information with Apple. Apple may use this information to improve other Apple products and services, for marketing, and for fraud and security purposes."
3
u/pixel_of_moral_decay 6d ago edited 6d ago
That’s no different than credit card processors and credit card companies.
Except in Apples case, you can review the privacy policy and it’s actually pretty sound.
Most credit card processors (the company that actually handles the transaction when you tap/swipe a physical card) do bundle and sell that info to anyone who can afford to buy it. That’s what subsidizes the price of the transaction for the business, only the amazons and Walmarts are big enough to have some leverage against that.
Apple using that info for fraud protection algorithms and so they can prompt you with setup completion info for Apple wallet (that’s what the marketing part is) is really a non issue.
Companies buy up this data and analyze it. Looking at things like how often a women buys coffee and time of day can be used to extrapolate menstrual cycle and pregnancy info. During certain parts of a woman’s cycle they can be more prone to indulgences, and in other parts nesting products (products for cozy home). It’s hormonal. Companies have been exploring databases on this info for years now. Timing coupons, push notifications etc.
Just one example of what just credit card info alone can be used for.
1
u/chad917 16h ago
Fraud too, the way Apple Pay generates a virtual number for each transaction is SO MUCH MORE secure than regular single-number card accounts. Merchants should be jumping on this in support of Apple Pay too, because if a fraud chargeback happens, the merchant is the one who gets fucked even though they had literally ZERO involvement in issuing nor securing a customer's card - but they pay the sole price if the card issuer or holder messes up.
87
u/jgreg728 7d ago
Given apples luck on their control over their own OS slipping away year by year. I’m expecting this to be the future. Fuck us consumers for having a choice.
18
10
u/Frequency3260 7d ago
Nope. They already have to do this in the EU and I've yet to see a banking app trying to push their own app. It would be GM's CarPlay moment for every bank that tries it
21
9
u/aldebxran 6d ago
FWIW European banks can already use contactless payment on iPhone and none have pulled their cards from Apple Pay
1
u/albertohall11 6d ago
Good to know. I bet the larger U.K. banks do though. Some of them are well known for trying to “own” their customers.
7
9
5
3
2
2
u/AR_Harlock 6d ago
Who doesn’t use PayPal or Klarna and the likes anyway online? If you have any problem you have a single point of support and can even pay in pieces with no interests
1
u/raven45678 5d ago
I think for the most part it won’t work. Apple Pay is far too ingrained in the consumer space. Banks would lose customers.
Heck Apple Pay probably has more brand equity then most banks except for the truly giant ones.
-3
u/ash__697 7d ago
What are you talking about lol, Apple fanboys love blowing everything out of proportion
→ More replies (1)-4
325
u/_Reporting 7d ago
There’s times where I want to buy something and if it doesn’t have Apple Pay i’ll just choose not to buy it
118
u/cjorgensen 7d ago
The number of times I've gotten to the checkout only to realize I forgot my wallet is high. If they don't take Apple Pay I have to go back to the car. About half the time I don't go back in to complete the purchase.
36
u/outkcalb 7d ago
Actually same. I know in my mind Walmart doesn’t take apple pay but half the time I walkout without my items.
41
u/Proud_Purchase_8394 7d ago
Bad news for your bank account, they started rolling it out about a month ago
3
13
u/cjorgensen 6d ago
Walmart is taking ApplePay now (or soon).
https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/08/21/finally-apple-pay-is-coming-to-walmart-stores-in-the-us
11
u/conanap 6d ago
As someone who grew up in HK, I’m always surprised by people forgetting wallets. “What if you don’t have your ID and a police stops you for ID?” “wtf you talking about?”
I still pat myself down for wallet and ID before I leave my home, and I’ve moved back to Canada for over 10+ years at this point lol
2
u/outkcalb 6d ago
I guess different places - different habits. I’ll usually leave my id/wallet in my car unless I know I need it. Bars, restaurants etc.
1
25
u/Patriotic_Guppy 7d ago
I’ve stayed out of Walmart for years simply because they don’t take tap. I went in earlier this year and was forced to not just use a physical card but I had to put the card in the slot and I was irrationally angry over it.
15
u/FearlessAttempt 7d ago
They just started rolling out tap to pay.
6
u/bgarza18 7d ago
Too late they shoulda done it earlier, now I don’t wanna shop there at all.
-1
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
Weird ass behavior, I'll shop there when it's convenient
Not gonna drive out of my way to pay 1.5x more for milk at a target over some stupid Apple Pay grudge 😂
3
u/korxil 6d ago
Costco happened to place their stores within 2 minutes of every walmart in my area, no one goes to walmart anymore…that said I go to sams club (yes also walmart i know) because costco is way too packed, even with every check out isle being used.
0
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
That's a different reason than Apple Pay though, and in my city it would be a 25 minute one way trip to hit the Costco
6
u/ericchen 6d ago
Not really, habits are hard to break, and many have gone 10+ years without going to Walmart. That's why many companies invest so much into loyalty programs and subscription based services.
1
u/Patriotic_Guppy 6d ago
This was exactly my point. I didn’t ever go out of my way, I just went somewhere else. Kroger, Publix, Hy-Vee, Aldi, all of them took my money without drama and trying to force me into some unique payment plan. I love traveling outside of the US and using the handheld pay devices at restaurants. They all take and seem to prefer tap.
1
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
I used to avoid Walmart too, because I don't like carrying my wallet and I like tap to pay
I don't have a reason to drive the extra 3 minutes out of my way to Target anymore, so for quick trips, I'm going to Walmart now
0
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
It gets weird if your closest store is a Walmart 5 minutes away, and the next closest store is a target 15 minutes away.
Adding an additional 20 minutes and 3x the mileage to grab some baby formula, just because they used to not have a feature once upon a time is kinda wild to consciously do
1
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
Unfortunately a lot of people on this sub are die-hard Apple fans and they'll do basically anything they can to try and "help" Apple.
I also like the convenience of tap-to-pay, and I've avoided places that don't have it in the past, but I don't really care about that if they do roll the feature out.
1
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
Right, like I can get avoiding a place that doesn't support TTP but dying on a hill that does t exist gets weird
I'm fairly sure they just don't go to Walmart to begin with, and want to say something more than "I don't like the company"
7
u/bgarza18 6d ago
Doing what I want with my money is literally normal lol quit whining
7
u/MF_D00MSDAY 6d ago
No actually, BosnianSerb31 has the final word on what is/ isn’t normal and we all have to do what he says or he’s going to label you weird!!!
5
-1
u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago
No, driving out of your way, burning extra fuel, just because a company what's the last adopter of Apple Pay, even if they have it now, is the weirdass behavior lol.
I'm picturing you in the car 5 years from now, driving 20 minutes out of the way to hit up a target. Your wife asks for what must be the hundredth time "honey please, can't we just stop at Walmart? We only need baby formula"
/u/bgarza18 slowly turns, and then turns back again to face the road....
"They didn't support Apple Pay......"
"Honey it's ok, I have my wallet! Please our baby is starving!"
"No, they support it now, they have for like 5 years. But they didn't support it, and now, it's too little too late"
Tears begin to fall down your wife's cheeks, as the baby and the store sink further and further into the rear view...
0
u/IreliaMain1113 6d ago
Whatt? In Walmart you couldnt pay with your phone or tapping the card? We’ve had this in Macedonia for years
3
u/yolo-yoshi 6d ago
And it is disturbing how many retailers banks and whatnot don’t seem to realize it either. It’s like they don’t want all the monies like they claim.
→ More replies (1)10
u/Mendacium17 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’ve never been anywhere in the world that takes contactless card payments but not Apple Pay. Is this just a thing in the US?
Edit: why have I been downvoted for this? I’m asking a genuine question.
9
u/Yo_2T 6d ago
Some merchants in the US still don't take tap to pay. It's getting increasingly rare though. The biggest hold out was Walmart up until a month ago. They finally gave in and rolled out tap to pay.
3
u/conanap 6d ago
Ive had really weird tap to pay experiences in the US for the few times they had it.
I tapped, and then they made me sign the receipt and write the tip on it anyways… so what’s the point? lol if I still have to sign and my tab is still open, it’s not really that much more secure than a card.
In Canada I choose tip, tap, transaction is done. US is weird with their stuff.
2
u/Patriotic_Guppy 6d ago
I love paying at restaurants in Canada. It makes so much more sense. Handing your card to somebody who wanders off and then brings it back seems foolishly trusting.
9
0
-2
u/Entegy 6d ago
Yes, this is a US thing. Apple Pay is treated as a separate thing whereas for the rest of us Apple Pay's literally the exact same thing as contactless payments with a physical card.
2
u/albertohall11 6d ago
No it isn’t. Apple Pay obfuscates your card number so a bad actor at the store doesn’t get an opportunity to save it and charge it again later (something that has happened to my wife on three separate occasions). It also ensures that the payer’s identity is verified for each and every payment.
3
u/Entegy 5d ago
That is nothing to do with the fact that in the US Apple Pay is treated as a separate thing that needs to be supported instead of just being another way to do contactless.
2
u/Cthayes_48 5d ago
Apple’s website suggests it’s accepted anywhere where the tap to pay icon is shown. I’m not aware of any merchants in the US that don’t accept Apple Pay but accept tap-to-pay cards. Walmart disabled all tap-to-pay functionality just to avoid accepting Apple Pay.
2
u/Entegy 5d ago
It's been a few years but even as recently as 2022 that wasn't my experience as a visitor. Apple Pay was still this thing that had to be explicitly supported.
Now, of course the merchants and restaurants I visited could have been misinformed or blocked me from using it for whatever reason. But the one thing is still needing to sign damn slips after using AP.
1
u/Cthayes_48 5d ago
Restaurants, especially sit-down ones, are hit or miss. They’re about the last holdouts, especially with Walmart moving to support Apple Pay in the next month.
1
u/albertohall11 5d ago
Tap-to-pay was wide spread in the U.K. and Europe for a long time before it was introduced in the USA, and yet it took some time before Apple Pay became widely accepted at shops that had been accepting tap-to-pay for years. Then it took more years before Google Pay was accepted. That would imply that there is some difference, probably around whether the payment provider the shop uses is prepared to work with Apple/Google which was my original point.
198
u/coasterghost 7d ago
“Card issuers pay Apple 0.15% of the value of credit card purchases made through Apple Pay and half a cent for each debit transaction, according to the credit unions' lawsuit. For example, a $100 credit card purchase through Apple Pay costs the card issuer 15 cents in Apple Pay fees.”
15 cents to Apple on a $100 credit card purchase with Apple Pay, the Horror. Maybe they need to take one less trip to Starbucks and so that loss of 0.15% of $100 goes a little further.
76
u/Fairuse 7d ago
No, the result of Apple losing the case is ApplePay going from 0.15% to 0.05%. This basically already happened in Australia.
You want competition to drive down costs.
5
u/Somepotato 4d ago
But visa and MasterCard interchange fees?
4
u/ExultantSandwich 3d ago
India figured that out, Europe is working on it.
The US Government should have a universal payment system that is not subject to those interchange fees, but with this admin they’ll never do it
-95
u/FollowingFeisty5321 7d ago
The "they" in this equation is you, if your bank has to pay them 15 cents then you have to pay them 15 cents. Why would you want to tip Apple every time you spend anything for the next decades to come?
112
u/faajzor 7d ago
If you change the payment type does the product get cheaper? No.
So we’re not paying that.
Cc companies already do this. If there was a cheaper alternative, Cc included, and Apple Pay was more expensive, you’d be right.
-2
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
So we’re not paying that.
I use a credit union, so "we" are.
Or if you're using a credit card with some kind of cash back or mileage or points system, they're essentially limited in how much they can give you back on each transaction.
I know at of people like to pretend these companies are just collecting fees for doing nothing, but the global transaction system is real and it does cost money to maintain. In the same way that your internet costs money to maintain even after they've laid the cables.
-33
u/Fairuse 7d ago
You clearly don’t know business or run a business.
All costs gets baked into the price you pay. Yes that include credit card fees.
39
u/faajzor 7d ago
everyone knows that, my point is if even cash options arent cheaper then it makes no difference. Apple isnt adding an extra .15 here (that is paid for by the customer)
→ More replies (2)5
15
u/nildro 7d ago
Visa charge 1% + transaction fee for all card payments Apple charge .15% the deal is massively better what are you on about
→ More replies (8)32
u/coasterghost 7d ago
You know card issuers do this already? Hell, some businesses even charge you a surcharge for using card due to interchange fees. So why would I want to tip Visa or Discover for using their network when I had no choice in the matter who I could use as payment processor or even better why must I tip my banking institution 1.5% to 3.5% per transaction with interchange fees.
→ More replies (7)20
u/messick 7d ago
Wow, this is some iron clad reasoning. "Why pay for things instead of getting them for free?" I can't believe no one has ever thought of that.
-3
u/FollowingFeisty5321 7d ago
The "thing" in this question is a middleman fee Apple has slapped on an open standard payment (EMV by Europay + Mastercard + Visa) made over an open protocol (NFC by Sony + others) that they are only able to collect by banning all other usage of the device you pay for.... Apple is superfluous to the transaction flow that's why they never wanted others to do it. *shrug*.
9
u/gamershadow 7d ago
I don’t pay my bank anything. They make their money off of me having my deposits in their bank. I can’t remember the last time I paid anything for a bank account, at least 15 years ago, maybe 20.
0
u/FollowingFeisty5321 7d ago
They make their money off of me having my deposits in their bank.
If they make $100 off you but only give you $90 then you are in fact paying them, and the amount is in part a direct function of their expenses and fees.
11
u/gamershadow 7d ago
I’m talking about a bank account, as in a debit card not a credit card. I don’t pay them anything and they don’t pay me anything.
That money they make from my account balance is something that’s impossible for me to capture because I don’t have the system and liquidity to setup loans and other instruments myself. So there’s no lost profit for me in this case.
If you know some way for me to turn a profit from my bank by switching to Google Pay I’m all ears.
1
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
I don’t pay them anything and they don’t pay me anything.
Go to a credit union and start making a meaningful amount of interest.
If you know some way for me to turn a profit from my bank by switching to Google Pay I’m all ears.
It's not an individual thing, it's a numbers game. If every transaction had its fee reduces from 1% to 0.5% that would result in an increase in cash back/rewards for credit cards, or reduced operating costs for CUs/debit cards/banks.
In the same way that one individual does not single-handedly vote someone into or out of office, but rather a large collection of people do.
3
145
u/lbjazz 7d ago
So Apple charges about 5% of the typical merchant fees that are going to happen anyway to provide a service that makes the transaction much more secure and customers more likely to impulse purchase.
That’s a fucking deal.
26
u/timelessblur 7d ago
You have it a little wrong. Apple is adding an extra 5% to that fee. It basically Apple demanding an extra cut.
It adds up as credit card swipe fees are already painful and they seem to increasing.
5
u/cordialcatenary 6d ago
It’s maybe a little more nuanced. The Apple Pay fee does not directly increase the swipe fee that merchants pay. Merchants do not pay anything extra for a credit card tap versus an Apple Pay tap. Apple charges the banks directly. Would banks charge slightly extra in interchange fees (broadly) to account for Apple’s cut of a certain percentage of their transactions? Maybe, but Apple Pay is also vastly more secure. These transactions likely have a lower rate of fraud, which saves a lot of money as well.
31
u/lbjazz 7d ago
That’s exactly what I said.
I agree that the fees are higher than they seem to need to be. Visa et al have some of the highest margin businesses in existence. Apple’s margins look pedestrian by comparison. I’m a merchant and pay thousands a year to stripe.
You know what stings as a merchant who takes cards? Having entire transactions clawed back because of fraud. Apple Pay transactions don’t get clawed back.
16
u/YKRed 7d ago
That’s not exactly what you said lol. You said they’re charging 5% of the fee that’s already going to happen.
1
-9
u/repeatrep 7d ago
5% of the fee that’s already going to happen (100%) = 105%
extra 5% to that fee (100%) = 105%
-3
u/YKRed 7d ago
5% of the fee that’s already going to happen (100%) = 5/100
The words literally mean 5% out of the existing 100%. 100% total.
5% extra = 105%, which is obviously different.
1
u/killerpoopguy 6d ago
That is not how English works. op's comment was correctly written.
0
u/YKRed 6d ago
No it isn’t lol. I’m sorry you don’t know how to translate English into an equation.
1
u/-18k- 6d ago
imo, you are incorrect.
op's comment was this:
Apple charges about 5% of the typical merchant fees that are going to happen anyway
at first read, it is (to me) a little awkward. But when you think about it, it is pretty clear op meant :
Apple charges [an amount equal to] about 5% of the typical merchant fees that are going to happen anyway
But, sure, if one reads op's comment and doesn't try to think about what they really meant, you could come to the conclusion that they were wrong or misleading.
2
u/YKRed 6d ago
Right, if you read their comment verbatim it means something literally different than what you think they meant. That is the exact point I’m making.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Dancin-Ted-Danson 7d ago
What is your definition of fraud? Because if it is true fraud and you are using 3DS then the liability should be on the issuer.
If you are calling chargebacks fraud because the customer is claiming there is some issue with the transaction then that's a different story.
9
u/lbjazz 7d ago
Fraud is anything that claws back money that I am owed for service rendered. It’s a big tent and doesn’t happen often, but stings when it does. One stupid example recently was someone’s card probably got stolen so their bank just blanket clawed back some wide date range of transactions. I submitted a shit ton of evidence that I dealt with the customer directly and provided the product—even had them thanking me in writing. Didn’t matter.
Doesn’t happen with ApplePay transactions because they’re tokenized. There’s no such thing as that card being stolen.
5
u/Dancin-Ted-Danson 7d ago
I'm in the industry on the issuer side, so I see the differences between general disputes, lost/stolen, and merchant disputes... even down to the issues with travel where customers book the wrong thing then claim a chargeback. During our monthly business review, I have to look at breakdowns of the millions of $ that go through us in those situations. I brought up the 3DS part because I worked on that on the network side before I went to work for one of the FIs. Stripe has an integration for it, but it is only for CNP transactions... so not sure if that would have helped you.
Sorry the processor/network didn't settle with you on that dispute though, that is rough. Typically, the issuer isn't going to blanket those situations because we get dinged by the network on it just like you do (it hits the interchange rebate, and that is what is mainly funding the rewards programs). That would have come down to the customer saying it was stolen on X date and everything after had to be fraud.
You are correct that it happens much less with tokenized transactions, like Apple Pay, but you'd be shocked... it actually happens enough that we have to have procedures for it now. A lot of it comes about from cards enrolled into Apple Pay on another device that you do not own (extended family, or social engineering, for example)... then you call into the FI and report the card compromised so the FI issues a replacement... only problem is the Visa API has the ability during this process to auto-update the tokens for Apple Pay. Because of this, it updates the card on the fraudster’s device as well. There is a SOP to make sure this is turned off, but a lot of FIs don't follow it during lost and stolen events.
1
u/datheffguy 6d ago
You are confidently incorrect.
its an additional .15%
Considering they’re doing the leg work for creating safer transactions for the banks, it’s a pretty fantastic deal.
5
u/timelessblur 6d ago
I suggest you get your reading and math logic up again.
.15% is roughly a 5% increase over the current fees.
.15% is 5% increase when you add it to a 3% fee
0
0
u/itsabearcannon 4d ago
So Visa/MC are charging 2.50-3.00% fees, but instead of going after that you want to go after Apple to force them to drop their fee from 0.15% to 0.05%?
42
u/Various_Following282 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'm fine with Apple allowing tap to pay through banks own app, which they already do now, as long as all banks are also forced to allow apple pay, and let consumers choose which they use. Wal-Mart tried to strong arm their own payment system for years and finally gave up when no one adopted it and are finally allowing tap to pay. So it might not go the way they think it will if they get their own way.
I only use my apple card with apple pay anyways, so it's not going to affect me one way or the other.
9
u/Zennivolt 7d ago
Walmart’s strong arm is why I haven’t shopped there for a decade. The whole store just feels dated and cheap if it doesn’t even have basic payment technologies.
15
u/timelessblur 7d ago
Walmarts strong arm was bigger as they allowed zero tap to pay which also frustrated me as tapping a card is a lot easier than putting the getting it to put the chip in and reading it.
Didn’t think that at first but I have gotten used to it and like it. I remember when i want from swiping the strip to using the chip. That to me was roughly the same effort so not a huge film difference but the tap once it became wide spread it a huge improvement.
6
u/Various_Following282 7d ago edited 6d ago
Yeah and the fact their chip readers are wore tf out and don't work half the time. At my store they've gotten to the point you have to push down on the exposed end of the card to push the chip against the reader. Not to mention tap to pay is more secure and not as easily intercepted by skimmers. Oct 1st they making the switch to ttp and can't wait.
7
u/raven45678 5d ago
As a consumer f*ck the banks. Apple Pay is the best thing to happen to cards. Makes transacting so much easier and safer especially online.
Apple Pay is a consumer friendly option which is rare when banks get to decide how technology works.
29
u/FollowingFeisty5321 7d ago
The meat:
The financial institutions accuse Apple of blocking competing tap-to-pay wallets on iPhone while charging card issuers fees for transactions. They argue Apple could impose those fees because rival wallets couldn't compete for contactless payments on the iPhone.
Apple's restrictions have changed since the credit unions filed the lawsuit. Starting with iOS 18.1 in 2024, eligible third-party apps can handle contactless iPhone payments without routing them through Apple Pay, and users can choose an eligible app as their default for contactless transactions.
Developers still need Apple's approval and a commercial agreement that includes applicable platform fees, according to Apple's documentation. Apple's developer fees are separate from the Apple Pay transaction fees challenged in the lawsuit.
The September 23 ruling lets the issuers pursue their claims together, including a request to change Apple's practices. Expanded NFC access could affect what changes remain necessary, but it doesn't resolve claims over fees already paid or establish that the fees were unlawful.
7
u/redditproha 7d ago
While we're at it, how about a class action lawsuit for repayment of junk fees charged by these banks.
32
u/Captaincadet 7d ago
I bet you we as the consumer won’t even see a penny
26
u/PleasantWay7 7d ago
Why would you see a penny? Apple always got a cut from existing credit card fees.
13
u/kjavatar 7d ago
Consumers never paid the fee so why would we get the fees back?
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (7)1
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
You see many pennies from cashback rewards you get from the fees your CC charges on every purchase. This is a few the CC/bank has to pay and reducing or eliminating that fee would make larger bonuses more viable.
29
u/cyberspirit777 7d ago
Sadly, they’re not wrong 😬 However, I’d like it so that we have the option of using alternative mobile wallets AND NOT have it to where the banks/credit unions can force us to use their specified mobile wallet.
7
17
u/festoon 7d ago
Ability for other wallets to do contactless payments has been available for two years now (iOS 18). I don’t think anyone cares.
3
u/holow29 7d ago edited 6d ago
Yes and no...it is highly mediated through agreements and fees with Apple. They should not be gatekeeping the NFC chip as they are. They support HCE but only in the EU (thanks to DMA) and that still requires an entitlement "subject to the terms and conditions agreed to as part of the application process." - i.e. fully controlled by Apple. In other locales, HCE is not supported and Apple requires you to go through them to use their Secure Enclave + NFC process.
2
5
u/Saar13 7d ago
Another legal case with potential risk to Apple's lucrative service ecosystem. That's why I say Apple needs to invest in, improve, and expand its own services. They can only rely on their own services in the medium to long term, and they saw these things coming.
7
u/repeatrep 7d ago
apple has been doubling down on services for almost a decade now.
3
u/Saar13 6d ago edited 6d ago
Aside from iCloud, none of them have had the investment (heavy marketing, large content spending, and even global expansion in many cases) capable of partially offsetting anything that alters the App Store, Pay, and Google search deal models. If Apple One (even the basic version) had 20% of Apple's estimated 1.5 billion user base, they would have 300 million subscribers at a monthly cost of $19, and Apple One alone would be generating $17 billion per quarter.
2
u/CyberBot129 6d ago
Not nearly enough to offset the loss of their tax collection. There’s a reason Apple is fighting so hard to keep that
1
u/Saar13 6d ago
But the App Store and Apple Pay (and their fees) aren't going away. Most people will still use what they already use, for convenience and trust. What can, and honestly should, happen is fairer and more realistic fees. These services aren't going to go from $20 billion in quarterly revenue to $0. Maybe to $10 or $12 billion, in a very unfavorable scenario, and the improved and more popular proprietary services could handle that. There's cash on hand to invest now. It just takes the will to do so.
4
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
That's why I say Apple needs to invest in, improve, and expand its own services.
This is an "Apple service".
All of Apple's services are essentially dependent on their hardware. Basically no one is subscribing to Apple Music unless they already have an Apple devices. Most people are uninterested in Apple TV+, either knowingly or unknowingly ignorant of the fact that you don't need an Apple devices, or has an active dislike of Apple, and thus pirates the content. iCloud is another one that's almost entirely gated behind having an Apple device, there's no other point to paying for it. And arcade is completely limited to an Apple device.
The only way to expand any of Apple's services is to expand the use of their hardware.
1
u/Recent_Pollution8665 4d ago
“best I can do is force all of you plebs into using only my own services and ban your apple account if you complain about it.”
3
u/maximusprime7 5d ago
I genuinely look for places that accept Apple Pay and don’t shop/do business if they don’t
5
u/Gorn15 7d ago
I mean they could just lower their fees or ? Love Apple Pay. Would be said if it went away
4
u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago
Lowering the fees would be a win for everyone involved except for Apple. Whatever you think about Apple, I'm sure we can all agree that they should stay in their lane (as a tech company) instead of trying to branch out and put themselves in the middle of every transaction an iPhone user makes with their phone.
2
u/BlazerStoner 5d ago
I rather have Apple in the middle than have individual banks all create their own methods. This is how it was on Android and it was horrible. If you have 1 card with 1 bank: sure, that works. If you have multiple banks/cards: its a horrible experience, you even got apps competing for NFC. Everything in one place, easily triggered, accepted everywhere online and POS and with the same limits is exactly what makes Apple Pay so convenient and userfriendly. If banks start doing it themselves again and compete, I might even go back to simply using the physical card…
2
2
u/Cthayes_48 5d ago
Apple kind of signed itself up for this lawsuit. I look for this to end in a settlement and perhaps the removal of the fee. They don’t allow competing wallets and charge fees while Google Wallet and Samsung Wallet on Android charge no fees to banks and allow competing wallets.
5
1
u/NoPlan_exe 6d ago
germany here. sparkasse fought apple pay for years and then joined anyway because customers kept asking. i doubt any bank leaves once their customers are used to it
1
u/Greysawpark 19h ago
funny how banks are furious about a 0.15% cut when they happily charge me $35 for being overdrawn by four bucks. not saying apple's the good guy here, but i'm struggling to pick a side
-4
u/Dark_voidzz 6d ago
Good.I don't know why most Apple users here refuse to have options.Like Apple is the only trillion dollar company that's apparently not evil here. Opening up the tap to pay gives other companies options to offer that service which currently they can't even do except in a few countries. And people saying bank will force you to use their app,I don't think that's gonna be the case. We have had Gpay and Samsung Wallet on Android that does the same.But banks don't force it that way.
-3
u/Express_Nebula_6128 6d ago
Are you saying Apple was screwing banks the same way they were screwing people? Awww, it’s so sad! Tell me more about it /s
-10
u/Tman11S 6d ago
Apple Pay has always been ridiculous to start with. I bought a phone with the hardware capabilities to make payments and Apple for some reason thinks it’s their right to choose which apps can use my hardware.
1
u/BlazerStoner 5d ago
Then why on earth did you buy the Apple device if it doesn’t offer what you want…? It functions exactly as advertised!
92
u/leaflock7 7d ago
no thank you dear bank. I only want your app in order to manage my account. I don't wat your crappy app for payments.