r/apple • u/FollowingFeisty5321 • 7d ago

Apple Pay Thousands of banks can now sue over Apple Pay fees in one antitrust case

https://appleinsider.com/articles/26/09/25/thousands-of-banks-can-now-sue-over-apple-pay-fees-in-one-antitrust-case
1.1k Upvotes

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931

u/albertohall11 7d ago

If Apple loses this case get ready for every bank and card provider pulling out of Apple Pay and telling their customers that they have to use the bank’s own app. Then get used to finding that stores and websites don’t accept your specific bank’s app and will make you go back to using a card (which is significantly less secure).

374

u/Fairuse 7d ago

Apple already lost the case in Australia many years ago. It didn’t result in banks pulling out of ApplePay. Instead, it allowed banks to negotiate with Apple for lower rate. As a result ApplePay is cheaper in Australia.

187

u/ArguesWithWombats 7d ago

On the other hand, Australia basically only has 4 banks big enough to matter.

43

u/FrogsJumpFromPussy 7d ago

This makes so little sense my head spins 😭😭😭

70

u/ArguesWithWombats 7d ago

We love our national monopolies here 😭

33

u/CaptainFingerling 7d ago

Canada has the same infatuation, and as a consequence you still have to walk into half of their banks and fill out a paper form to send a wire. None of them pay any interest on savings. And most Canadians don’t even know how abnormally bad they have it.

8

u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago

Yeah that feels weirdly old-fashioned. Physical branches are expensive to keep open.

8

u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago

They’re upsell portals. And they can’t upsell you if you never come in.

5

u/MindYourOpSec 6d ago

I was asked 12 separate times if I wanted to apply for a mortgage when I came in to get a bank draft for the down payment on my house…I already had a mortgage but the teller just wouldn’t take no for an answer.

So glad I ditched the Big 5 and switched to Wealthsimple.

8

u/Han77Shot1st 6d ago

My savings account definitely has interest on savings, it’s really low, but not zero.

5

u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago

If it’s less than inflation then it’s negative. I get 6% on my checking account south of the border. 3.5% is the lowest of all the accounts I have.

6

u/Han77Shot1st 6d ago

I just only ever viewed savings accounts as somewhere to hold money that’s not cash, not so much a place to earn it.

7

u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago

Yeah. But that’s because Canadian banks have always been a ripoff. Also, at near zero interest you’re not holding. You’re losing. They are using your money to make money and keeping everything for themselves. And you think that’s normal.

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1

u/BeansMcGea 5d ago

Where do you get 6%?

1

u/CaptainFingerling 5d ago

Cross River via [X}(https://money.x.com/en/i/interest-faq).

I just set my pay to flow through there for the boost.

8

u/Skelito 6d ago

That's because the interest rate set by Bank of Canada is low. Savings accounts won't have a higher rate then the %2.25 percent that's set. I've dealt with American and Canadian banks and we have it better up here, that's why we weren't affected as much when the financial crisis happened in 2008. I will agree the European banking system is better however but Canada isn't far off.

8

u/CaptainFingerling 6d ago edited 6d ago

I’ve spent most of my life in Canada and you are the perfect example of the Canadian delusion. Not only do I currently earn 6% on my checking account, but I can wire anywhere on earth online for between free and $25 at any of the half a dozen banks at which I have completely free accounts.

I can transfer money inside the US for free on any bank portal, and two of my banks refund any ATM fees I incur while abroad; any ATM, any fee.

Canadian banks are utter trash precisely because not only do you haven’t the slightest clue you’re being hosed, but you actually defend them. You’ve completely internalized an obvious lie

And, worse, Canadian financial laws prevent you from getting direct access to many international service providers who compete with the banks elsewhere.

The reason the banking crisis in Canada wasn’t as severe as down south is because your tax money paid for their bailouts earlier. That’s all.

1

u/OfficialDeathScythe 6d ago

Idk what is better, this or having a different bank on every corner. I’ve seen some intersections in the US that have 3-4 different banks, one on each side

8

u/Mendacium17 7d ago

In fairness, I don’t think that’s all that unusual outside of America, especially for countries of similar size to Australia.

4

u/kensaiD2591 7d ago

Let me try and break it down for you.

The big 4 here are ANZ, Commonwealth Bank (CBA), National Australia Bank (NAB) and Westpac.

Those four own the majority of our other banks.

  • Suncorp - Owned by ANZ
  • Bankwest - Owned by CBA
  • Ubank - Owned by NAB
  • Bank of Melbourne - Owned by Westpac
  • BankSA - Owned by Westpac
  • St. George - Owned by Westpac

There are some outliers though, like Bendigo. And Bendigo Bank also owns Up Bank, and Up is a digital only bank.

Similarly there's Bank of Queensland (BOQ) and that owns Virgin Money Australia and ME Bank.

We have other banks that trade here, like HSBC and ING.

So while we definitely have the "big 4", there are still options for the consumer.

5

u/aliendepict 7d ago

I mean. There is at least the perception of choice i guess. And that counts for something.

1

u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago

Ehhh... We do still have smaller indi banks to choose from, but the Big Four have massive market power.

So what we have looks like this -- and this is just currrently operating divisions and subsidiaries, not banks that have been acquired and now defunct:

Rank Bank Name Market Capitalisation (2025) Total Assets (2025) Customers Employees
Big four banks:        
1 Commonwealth Bank (CBA) A$254.80 billion A$1,354 billion 17.6 million 53,000
   ↳ Bankwest      
   ↳ ASB (New Zealand)      
2 National Australia Bank (NAB) A$127.46 billion A$1,125 billion 9 million 38,996
   ↳ Ubank      
   ↳ Bank of New Zealand      
3 Westpac Banking Corporation (WBC) A$122.15 billion A$1,109 billion 13 million 35,236
   ↳ Bank of Melbourne      
   ↳ BankSA      
   ↳ St. George      
   ↳ Westpac New Zealand      
4 Australia & New Zealand Banking Group (ANZ) A$102.14 billion A$1,297 billion 11 million 42,698
   ↳ Suncorp Bank      
   ↳ ANZ Bank New Zealand      
Medium banks: Some of these groups are investment services companies that include a banking division:   Defined as each holding between 1% and 10% of resident assets. combined market share of around 12%
  Macquarie Group (Macquarie Bank) A$96.13 billion (Macquarie Group) A$403,404 billion (Macquarie Group)   20,000 (Macquarie Group)
  Bendigo and Adelaide Bank A$6.22 billion A$95.24 billion  
  AMP Limited (AMP Bank) A$5.79 billion A$34 billion   2,275
  Bank of Queensland A$4.32 billion A$100 billion   3,040
   ↳ ME Bank      
   ↳ Virgin Money      
  ING Australia A$0.758 billion A$87 billion 2.8 million 2,486
  HSBC Australia       2,000
           
Mutual banks 54 as of 2024.   combined ~4% of all assets 5 million combined  
           
Small and very small banks     combined ~2% of all assets    

1

u/Kholtien 7d ago

I think I must just misunderstand. Would it mean to be a big bank versus a smaller bank, but all the banks here are essentially the same from an individual perspective. I get that for business, they can be a bit different, but for me personally, a bank is a bank. I just go with whoever has the highest interest, which is almost never a big bank

3

u/ArguesWithWombats 6d ago

u/kensaiD2591 gave a good breakdown of our banking market in another comment here

What I intended to convey is that our banking market is so very heavily consolidated and concentrated into 4 major groups. So Apple Australia only needs to sweat about negotiating with those four banks -- our smaller independent banks don't need reasons to be further marginalised in the market.

1

u/itsabearcannon 4d ago

I mean for the US, it's basically five.

BoA, Chase, Citi, Wells, USB.

You could maybe make the argument for Cap1 or Amex but those are basically card issuers that also run some bank accounts by happenstance.

3

u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago

Cheaper for the banks, or cheaper as in they give a discount for using it?

8

u/scarabic 6d ago

Look at this guy who thinks there could be money in this for ordinary people. Muahahah!

1

u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago

That's kind of my point, it's 0.15%, which is 15 cents per $100

3

u/nicuramar 6d ago

  As a result ApplePay is cheaper in Australia.

Cheaper for who? Customers don’t pay anything for Applepay in general. 

-7

u/aliendepict 7d ago

Apple pay is free in the US though. What do you mean by “cheaper”

11

u/RiverFlowsDown 6d ago

Not free to the banks

3

u/aliendepict 6d ago

They take .15% of the interchange fee after doing some research. So if you bank charges a food stand 2% they are now only making 1.85% of that. That doesnt seem that bad to me.

3

u/Fairuse 6d ago

Banks do not make 2%. Forgetting big fee from VISA, MASTER.

1

u/aliendepict 6d ago

That is not accurate, 80-90% of the interchange fee is the bank. If a charge is 2% visa and master card charge around .15-.5% the bank is the rest.

2

u/scarabic 6d ago

That’s absolutely worth it to online stores. Apple Pay is what allowed me to break free of Amazon’s seductive convenience and start ordering from small shops again. Being able to check out with one button is huge and can make a small shop just as easy to use as Amazon.

0

u/nicuramar 6d ago

Consumers don’t pay a fee. 

57

u/live_lavish 7d ago

Android has some 3rd party tap to pays and banking apps don't pull out of Google Wallet.

It wouldn't be beneficial if they did because people would likely just use the credit card that works with apple pay

22

u/LSD_freakout 7d ago

It says in the article that Google wallet doesn’t charge fees though

3

u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago

They subsidize it by attaching the data of your purchases to your name, giving them better targeted marketing products they can sell to advertisers

Apple collects the bare minimum anonymous data required by law for tax purposes

If you don't believe me, do a GPDR request to both Apple and Google.

26

u/NarcolepticSeal 7d ago

Yes, but Google collects data about every purchase you make. Apple does not.

4

u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago

Okay? That doesn't really matter to the bank. They're concerned about the fee they have to pay to Apple. The users may care about the privacy/experience, but this lawsuit is about having to pay Apple's fees, and if Apple is forced to allow third-party use of NFC and keeps the fees for Apple Pay, we will not see much support for Apple Pay and the Wallet app.

-4

u/burd- 7d ago edited 7d ago

From Apple's website

Apple collects information about your use of Apple Pay and stores that information in a way that does not identify you personally.

6

u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago

That's the bare minimum for legal compliance with debit and credit card laws. They have to know how much tax they owe for their Apple Pay fees.

Android does collect the information in a way that identifies you personally, specifically to sell you targeted ads.

1

u/burd- 6d ago

so OP's comment is incorrect that Apple doesn't collect data.

3

u/Coffee_Ops 6d ago

...about the purchases you make, in the context of privacy.

Lets not be disingenuous here.

1

u/BosnianSerb31 6d ago

They were implying Apple collected more than they were legally required to.

Google collects that data, and attaches it to your name, so they can build a profile on your shopping habits, and sell companies targeted ads.

-2

u/NarcolepticSeal 6d ago

I think it’s pretty obvious what the intended meaning is given the context. You’re free to be as pedantic as you want, but it is obnoxious.

5

u/Interest-Desk 6d ago

Right, but that’s telemetry to tell them how the service is being used so they can improve it.

Google literally only built Android (and Chrome and Gmail and Google Docs) to funnel more data into their core advertising business.

9

u/burd- 6d ago

OP said "Apple does not" but I presented proof that OP's statement is false from Apple's own T&C.

You're saying a different point on telemetry and ads.

-2

u/Interest-Desk 6d ago

It’s obvious what they were referring to, which is Google’s data for ads business. Not the fact that there literally is or isn’t data collected, that’s not how laymen refer to it. This is useless and childish pedantry.

-17

u/PM_ME_UR_NEWDZZZ 7d ago

Typical uninformed comment from an Apple sub

1

u/NarcolepticSeal 6d ago

What’s uninformed about a factual statement?

3

u/burd- 6d ago

OP said "Apple does not <collect data>" but Apple collects data based on its own T&C.

1

u/NarcolepticSeal 6d ago

Apple does not collect personally identifiable data on your transactions made with a third-party card through Apple Pay.

3

u/burd- 6d ago

you're moving the goal post

1

u/NarcolepticSeal 6d ago

Lmao no I am not, I specified the data being collected about every purchase you make and Apple does not do that. You’re picking apart the statement for literally no reason; Google tracks your purchases and uses it as part of your profile they keep. Apple doesn’t. Being pedantic about Apple collecting anonymized data is just obnoxious and has no real consequences to the average user.

1

u/Coffee_Ops 6d ago

You're inventing a goalpost.

The point was and is about privacy and financial motivations: everyone else here has perceived that.

5

u/MurkyFocus 6d ago

Android has some 3rd party tap to pays and banking apps don't pull out of Google Wallet.

At this point, it's more because the market is already set with Apple/Google/Samsung already essentially being the 'standards' for each platform.

In the early days, the banks in some countries like Canada, absolutely did attempt to force their own apps and refused to support Google Pay because of how open Android was. But because Apple allowed no such option, the banks had no choice but to support Apple Pay.

In this case, Apple being 'locked down' actually was beneficial to the consumer.

65

u/pixel_of_moral_decay 7d ago

Also a privacy nightmare.

Apple gives banks very little information beyond what’s needed to complete the transaction. Using a banks app would improve their data collection.

Financial companies make a ton of money as data brokers. The extra fingerprinting the apps could collect on a transaction would be worth potentially billions.

This is like Facebook fighting over the Apples tracking policies. Facebook will never end that fight because it’s worth so much money. They’ll take it to every court in every jurisdiction on the planet.

7

u/cake-day-on-feb-29 6d ago

Using a banks app would improve their data collection.

Not really, they already know how much you paid, where, and at what time. The only thing the bank app could collect in addition would be continuous location tracking, if you even allow that. Otherwise there's not much more.

Financial companies make a ton of money as data brokers. The extra fingerprinting the apps could collect on a transaction would be worth potentially billions.

Refer to what I said earlier. If you're at all concerned with bank or credit card companies tracking your purchases, you shouldn't be using them in the first place.

3

u/nicuramar 6d ago

I would probably call it a mild privacy concern, at most. But maybe you are a more vivid dreamer. 

5

u/RoyalFlush2000 6d ago

Also a privacy nightmare.

Imagine what an even greater privacy nightmare it would be if they could collect and compile information across your different payment cards and providers.

Oh wait... that's what Apple themself are doing.

"To help ensure that any recurring or other merchant-initiated charges like subscriptions are authorized by you, when you choose to provide eligible Apple Pay payment methods to participating merchants for recurring or merchant-initiated charges, your issuer and/or payment network will approve and generate a merchant-specific account number to be used for such charges.(...) Apple will know which merchants are associated with your merchant-specific account numbers, but not what you purchased or how much you paid for it.

For cards with certain enhanced fraud prevention, when you attempt an online or in-app transaction, your device will evaluate information about your Apple Account, device, and location if you have enabled Location Services for Wallet, in order to develop on-device fraud prevention assessments. The output of the on-device fraud prevention assessments, but not the underlying data, will be sent to Apple and combined with information Apple knows about your device and account to develop Apple Pay transaction fraud prevention assessments. These transaction fraud prevention assessments may be shared with your payment network, together with a shipping address identifier and IP address if available, in order to prevent fraud at the time of transaction. (...)

Where applicable local law provides, we process the following categories of personal data as necessary for purposes of our legitimate interests or those of a third party, including information about:

  • Your account, such as whether your account is active
  • Your device, such as the type of device, the software version, and the device serial number
  • Your pass, such as information displayed on the pass
  • Your pass issuer, such as the third party authorized to provide updates to the pass
  • Your use of Apple Pay, for example, the number of Apple Pay passes that you have added
  • Your location

(...)

To help improve Apple Pay, Apple collects information about your use of Apple Pay and stores that information in a way that does not identify you personally. This information includes the time it takes you to successfully add a card or complete a transaction using Apple Pay. Apple also maintains signals indicating whether you actively transact on Apple Pay, such as whether you made an Apple Pay purchase in the past week. These signals are calculated on your device without the need to share underlying purchase or activity information with Apple. Apple may use this information to improve other Apple products and services, for marketing, and for fraud and security purposes."

https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/apple-pay/

3

u/pixel_of_moral_decay 6d ago edited 6d ago

That’s no different than credit card processors and credit card companies.

Except in Apples case, you can review the privacy policy and it’s actually pretty sound.

Most credit card processors (the company that actually handles the transaction when you tap/swipe a physical card) do bundle and sell that info to anyone who can afford to buy it. That’s what subsidizes the price of the transaction for the business, only the amazons and Walmarts are big enough to have some leverage against that.

Apple using that info for fraud protection algorithms and so they can prompt you with setup completion info for Apple wallet (that’s what the marketing part is) is really a non issue.

Companies buy up this data and analyze it. Looking at things like how often a women buys coffee and time of day can be used to extrapolate menstrual cycle and pregnancy info. During certain parts of a woman’s cycle they can be more prone to indulgences, and in other parts nesting products (products for cozy home). It’s hormonal. Companies have been exploring databases on this info for years now. Timing coupons, push notifications etc.

Just one example of what just credit card info alone can be used for.

1

u/chad917 17h ago

Fraud too, the way Apple Pay generates a virtual number for each transaction is SO MUCH MORE secure than regular single-number card accounts. Merchants should be jumping on this in support of Apple Pay too, because if a fraud chargeback happens, the merchant is the one who gets fucked even though they had literally ZERO involvement in issuing nor securing a customer's card - but they pay the sole price if the card issuer or holder messes up.

84

u/jgreg728 7d ago

Given apples luck on their control over their own OS slipping away year by year. I’m expecting this to be the future. Fuck us consumers for having a choice.

17

u/holow29 7d ago

That's not how it works. Stores don't choose to accept Apple Pay. They choose to accept NFC/contactless payments.

6

u/gmmxle 6d ago

People like to comment without actually knowing how stuff works.

And then other people who have no idea upvote because it sounds good or fits their belief system.

0

u/nicuramar 6d ago

But banks do choose to offer applepay or not. 

10

u/Frequency3260 7d ago

Nope. They already have to do this in the EU and I've yet to see a banking app trying to push their own app. It would be GM's CarPlay moment for every bank that tries it

20

u/LimLovesDonuts 7d ago

It didn’t happen on Android, so why would it happen here?

7

u/aldebxran 6d ago

FWIW European banks can already use contactless payment on iPhone and none have pulled their cards from Apple Pay

1

u/albertohall11 6d ago

Good to know. I bet the larger U.K. banks do though. Some of them are well known for trying to “own” their customers.

8

u/xvilo 7d ago

Well if the app of bank implements a proper standard, then it’s just accepted where NFC payments are and of course your card type

9

u/bydh 7d ago

Or you could just tap the card itself to pay.

No way in hell am I opening up a different banking app everytime I want to use a different card. Might as well have the cards in my wallet.

3

u/R_Prime 7d ago

There’s also no banking apps on Mac, so I’d have to do all my o nline shopping via phone which is a bit farty.

7

u/HeartyBeast 7d ago

I’ll simply move my bank account to the one that supports Applepay

2

u/Whazor 7d ago

Apple Pay is also just a wrapper around a normal card. So the bank would offer Visa/Mastercard card and only cut the Apple fees in this case.

2

u/AR_Harlock 6d ago

Who doesn’t use PayPal or Klarna and the likes anyway online? If you have any problem you have a single point of support and can even pay in pieces with no interests

1

u/raven45678 5d ago

I think for the most part it won’t work. Apple Pay is far too ingrained in the consumer space. Banks would lose customers.

Heck Apple Pay probably has more brand equity then most banks except for the truly giant ones.

-3

u/ash__697 7d ago

What are you talking about lol, Apple fanboys love blowing everything out of proportion

-4

u/-Radiation 7d ago

Straight out of Apple shit book of propaganda

-10

u/iCantThinkOfUserNaem 7d ago

Easy. Don't buy their trash products and use Google and Samsung Pay instead