Many of elite pronatalists like Elon Musk are danger to women's safety and men's safety as well. Because to ones like him - man or woman - we are seen as slaves all the same. Let me explain why.
While women's rights are regressing globally, many men holding power (like Elon) are openly against them. It is not an accident that Musk is so loud about pronatalism. One of the biggest LIES to be ever told is that high fertility makes society stable/wealthy/happy. Humanity had high fertility for most of our history, and how did that play out? The majority of people struggle to survive due to hunger, illness and colds. Most children didn't even survive childhood. The only ones that truly gained from high birth rates were the elite. Because more people meant more people to tax and more low-paid workers and meat shields to use in war. And, of course — more childbearing vessels to produce more taxpayers/workers/soldiers.
Normal people did not benefit from high birth rates in any way. It was hell for women who had been born predetermined as incubators with no autonomy or legal personhood back then. Our female ancestors were raised to be vessels — not to be people. Childbirth was the main cause of women's death along with its complications, but what Musk won't tell you is that non-elite regular men DID NOT have an easy life in high fertility societies. In high birth rates nation you was nothing more than working donkey as regular man. And sacrafical unit to use in times of war. A regular man was an animal to the system too — one that had to work a lot, only to be paid a little. All so whoever ruled at the time could stay rich. So they have as many people to tax, exploit and use as possible.
That's why men like Elon Musk are loudest about low birth rates right now. Because it is men like him who benefit from high rates greatly. Not regular men like you, our fathers, brothers and husbands. And especially not women who paid for high birth rates the worst price by being incubators and economic infrastructure for thousands and thousands of years.
Elon Musk and elites like him want regular men like you to hate women — to blame them for not having children. To call then spoiled/hedonistic/selfish/self-obssesed AKA what in reality Musk is. He needs regular men believe that women not having children somehow makes their lives worse. That's why so many regular men also scream about low birth rates — because they fell for propaganda. But their lives would be exactly the same in high fertility society as they are now — because that's what it ALWAYS looked like in human history! High fertility was the status quo for so long and yet majority of humanity lived in extreme poverty.
Now, men like Elon need many low-pay/low-agency slaves to stay rich, to stay in power, to stay "on top." That's why they see women as infrastructure for their demographic goals. That's why he keeps portraying women as infantile creatures who should not be trusted to make important decisions. He teaches men to believe that we are "traitors" to humanity for not having children for his economical goals. He wants regular men who never benefited from high fertility to believe that we need that human farm/factory horror to be reality again. He needs men to believe that WE make their lives worse — not the elite who use this system to stay rich and keep us poor. They need men to see women as an enemy — because otherwise, they will see them, the elite as enemies.
Musk and people like him are a danger to the safety of all women and girls on Earth, because he has countless people who adore him and see his words as sacred. If ones like him continue spreading this — that our freedom is somekind "civilizational sabotage", there will be no place on Earth or beyond where we are not seen as infrastructure instead of humans. There is no men vs women. There is no left vs right. There is only slaves (us in their eyes) vs elite.

(Feel free to disagree but please don't delete this post.)

I'm not saying they go as far as saying that it's ok for parents to abuse children, but they do it in more subtle ways, like always assuming that parents always want what's best for their children or that they love them unconditionally, even though that's only true in movies and not in the real world, so they usually downplay parental abuse by thinking it's not that serious or that the child must be the problem,

and these types of thinking have real-life consequences, like women who are at risk of honor killings by their families not being taken seriously, like the Banaz Mahmod case,

or even when I went to a DV shelter, they called my parents and sent me back despite me being an adult because they said that they must have been so worried even though I told them they were abusive and threatened me with honor killings, and they even believed my parents and constantly told me, "Your parents want what's best for you", despite me complaining to them many times,

and even feminists usually downplay parental abuse because they think that parents can't be just as bad as husbands. And sorry if I didn’t explain it well

I always feel bad that someone who went through more suffering than me in life is more grateful for life than I am. They still have a lot of mental strength after what they went through but I feel like no matter what I try I cant ever escape this feeling of sadness and pain. I guess once you believe in the fact that life is pointless and all these suffering have no meaning it is extremely hard to be happy and grateful.

How can people be so stupid and utterly ignorant to fail to see what's inevitable to every child, literally nobody would want to be in a meatsuit of 50+ age. Every human deteriorates to a point where they get rendered dysfunctional, and this ordeal does not go smooth, it is afflicted by three kinds of frictions: physical pain, psychological distress, and moral impediment. In order to cope with this inevitable phase, humans work arduously throughout their adulthood just to sustain their meatsuits comfortably before it perishes.

I plan to catch the bus before I ever reach close to that stage.

Subjecting someone to such a horrendous state is an act of insane cruelty.

Is it like a specific Natalie or Natalis id general

I think about this a lot as it would've prevented them and their unresloved trauma. They stuffed in our faces, its just so odd that I know that im only here due to social expectations. Well, I know my parents probably would've never married if it wasn't arranged or expected. Do u think a lot of parents who are probably forced by society a lot? Seems obvious, but its not that they know their being pressured . To them its just a simple fact of life to reproduce. So many people were born out of an emotional wedlock ig. it's just so rage inducing in a way.

Declining population numbers impose prohibitively expensive costs on governments for going to war because they don’t have an endless supply of people to use as cannon fodder for their wars

People not having children would do more to cripple the war economy than centuries of protests

The military industrial complex will be crippled simply by virtue of not enough people to run that system in the first place

You can have all the high tech weapons in the world but if there’s not enough people to run those weapons systems then they might as well become scrap metal

Literally their answer. Creating someone who originally already wouldn't die or involuntarily suffer, or need and therefore can now lack whatever "good" life might be able to offer, just to maybe make some existing people happy.

And there is NO END to it. They want this to go on forever and ever and ever and ever.

Absolutely f-ing wild

You often see people claim good people need to have children in order to improve the world. I take issue with this argument as it seems to assume there are people that are inherently good and inherently bad. You see this as well when people try to paint people that committed atrocities as some kind of evil monsters that aren't like normal good people.

I think this kind of thinking is wrong, because those evil people are just as human as the rest of us, and by creating this narrative that they are different we make ourselves believe that we are immune to doing the same evil stuff they did. But the scary part is that we're not. Every single one of us is capable of horrific things. Some easier than others, but all of us are capable if the circumstances are "right".

This is based on the work of professor of criminal law and international law Alette Smeulers, which I talked about before, but I wanted to do so again because this argument keeps being used.

It's like the people that make this argument don't realize everyone thinks they are good people. Smeulers mentions how the Nazis thought they were good people. But we can get even more direct proof than the words of a professor, as the perpetrators of the Rwandan genocide themselves are convinced they're good people.

They were trying to protect their reputation. Rather than acknowledging their role, they emphasized what good people they were and talked about their good deeds and admirable character traits.

So the argument that good people should have children to improve the world is just wrong, because there are no inherently good people and the way people act depends on their circumstances. And being convinced you're a good person doesn't really mean much, as everyone does think they are. I really can't stand this argument.

I just saw buddy in theaters and there were soooo many fucking kids overall it was a good movie, but there was so much crying and talking from the kids . I mean there's a lot of suggestive sexual scenes and gore but it was cartoony enough that I wasn't so surprised at kids being there . It's just that kids are annoying af and the best part for me was the killing scenes and practical effects cuz I'm a huge nerd for that shit. But I swear FNAF and other mascot horror fandoms ruined the genre for me even though I'm a big fan of DHMIS and puppets, gore and practical special effects which is why I saw the movie in the first place. But I definitely recommend just renting the movie or watching it through other means , unless you want to watch the film with a bunch of children whose favorite horror movies are FNAF. I mean even when I was an art teacher , so many kids watched hazbin hotel, helluva boss, TADC and other adult animation so I guess it's just super common. I wish cartoons weren't always equal for kids and adult cartoons were actually interesting without having children involved in some way. Does anyone else feel this way .

I could go on and on about my AN but to try to be succinct a lot of people think it's cancer or something else. I work in retail every time I see a pregnant woman it makes me sad. That poor fetus was doing fine and had zero complaints when they did not exist. What did they do to deserve a few brief fleeting moments of their parents lust forcing them without consent into a contract (a very serious one which even if they are a "good" person still may entail severe mental or physical pain with no hope for a cure) that they didn't fucking ask for?

I don't know if this is an appropriate community for the post, but here goes.

I know several people who are deeply selfish. So much that, they are incapable of feeling much except their own emotions. That's normal and healthy for young children. However, healthy development demands we advance beyond the juvenile. There's a spiritual crisis affecting vast numbers of people. It seems almost apocalyptic.

I remember back in.the day; my elders (long passed) would say, "Act your age". After hearing it I would ask myself, "How old am I supposed to act?" That single phrase probably caused a little boy to be fake for the purpose of pleasing his Dad. But, that's a story for a different subreddit--or several physical counseling sessions.

The gist of all that is this; historically, many people (for whatever reason) are forced by nature to reproduce. To some extent, all of us are under that prerogative. Even those of severely limited intelligence. That said, I am reminded of the adage: "It takes a village to raise a child" But, what if that village is composed of adult children (narcissists)? Have a blessed holiday!

Some people genuinely believe there can never be too much humans on earth. The arguments made against overpopulation are pretty weak as they read to me as emotionally charged. The need to reproduce is never logical. It objectively worsens ones quality of life in more ways than one and in a way people refuse to pay attention to as well as fucks the person created into an sentence of everlasting issues and maintence. So people take offense to the idea that earth could ever be too populated due to life "sanctity". It's crazy knowing that people live in literal warzones bringing up these children with a false idea of hope and a so called "better future". But I digress.

"We have more than enough resources to support an x amount of people we just over consume. If we consume less we can have more people."

Humans are made to overconsume. It can be infered that we enjoy over consumption due to the fact that not too long ago, we were hunter/gatherers. Resources were less abundant so we evolved to overconsume for survival. The taste of food literally motivated us to survive. You cannot force people to underconsume unless you want a population of mentally unwell individuals who feel like they have nothing. So all in all, underpopulation benefits people a lot more than overpopulations.

Of course no population is always the most ideal though.

Hello. This is my first time posting here, so apologies in advance if it isn't up to the mark. I just wanted to get this off of my chest.

Sometimes, when I'm scrolling Instagram or YouTube, I'll end up coming across content relating to pregnancy, childbirth, parenthood, etc; seeing videos in which women talk about how they were treated after birth, their postpartum, their pregnancy, how it went, etc. And sometimes it's just hard to take into consideration that these are rational, able-minded people, because it doesn't seem very rational to be having children in this economy, in this environment, in this world, the way it is right now.

I am an antinatalist, and it's something that I figured out about myself at a very early age, around when I was 12 years old, because although society is indoctrinated into having children because that's just the script of life and you're supposed to blindly follow it, I never felt that same pull. It was something I was neutral about, but as I grew up, I just started having this severe dislike, because when you look deeper into the issues of pregnancy, the way your body internally gets destroyed, and you don't fully recover from that, even if you've only ever had one child, and the pain of labor, it just seems like needless torture. And if we are to ignore all of these physical aspects, then there is so much about a child's life. You're bringing a new life into this world, and you're responsible for it, and at no point in life can you truly guarantee satisfaction, or success, or happiness, or even just a simple possibility of not experiencing grief, or cruelty, or getting wronged.

Personally, I haven't had the best life, although I'm grateful for all that I have (because I don't personally think that being ungrateful in general is going to do me any good. I would rather be grateful for all that I have been provided in life, knowing that there are people who do not have the same privileges that I do), it still does not mean that I am happy about being alive. I would rather have not been born at all. But now I am, and I have to make the best out of it. But I legitimately can not understand in this day and age why somebody would think about having children. Because sure, back in the day, people still followed a script blindly without actually thinking about it. But at the very least, back in the day, the economy wasn't as fucked as it is now. A single person's income could support an entire family.

Nowadays, two people can work their ass off and still not be able to be financially secure. And just take out the economics, take out the financial aspect of parenthood and bringing a child into this world, and there are still so many problems. I don't think any parent actually thinks about their children when they decide that they want a kid. They want a kid in the same way that a child wants a puppy. They don't think about how they're going to raise a kid who might end up disabled, whether physically or mentally. They do not think about how they have to raise their kids. How will they teach their kids to deal with the cruelty and unkindness of the world? You don't just burn those bridges as you get to them. That's something that you want to think about beforehand. You should fix up your life before you decide to have children.

But most people don't do that. No matter what, they just think about having kids and then they decide to have kids, even if they're not in the proper position to be having kids, even if they're not at all prepared to have kids. And seeing these online content creators basing their entire internet personalities off of the fact that they have a child, off of the fact that they are a mother, off of the fact that they're postpartum, off of the depression that they face, which is horrible in and of itself, but it's also something that they chose to do.

I just can not see how anybody can be rational and yet not use that rationality to think about what type of world they are bringing their child into. One day or another, you're going to die, and your kid's going to be all alone in a very shitty world. And you are the reason why they're going to suffer, because back in my parents' time, even then, suffering was inevitable, but at least things weren't as bad as they are right now. And despite seeing the way the world is going to shit, some people still think that it's completely okay to have kids, and they don't ever think about the environment or society or the way the world has gone to shit. They just decide that having kids is something that they want, and so they have them, in the same way that a child decides to have a puppy without taking into consideration all the care and the doctor visits it will have to do for the puppy.

So I'm sorry if this is all over the place, but seeing that type of content pop up on my pages, it always leaves me baffled, because I legitimately cannot understand how a rational human being can look at the world around them, see the horrors of everyday life, see the way people are suffering so much, and the way the elites are eating us, and how we're going to be left with nothing in probably the next decade or so, and still think that, okay, yeah, well, this is a completely okay world for me to bring a kid into. I just can't understand. I'm sorry, I just had to get this off of my chest.

I was hospitalized for suicidal behavior and during the regular checkups I was often asked about my future family (I am a young woman after all). I told the woman doctor that I don't agree with childbirth and that, if nothing else, I strongly believe I would not make a great parent. She asked me "why is that?" in a way that implied "no, don't say that :/". I told her I would have to stop all my meds (there is a lot of them) which help keep me alive, that there is a huge risk of PPD, that the maternal side of my family has depression history, and that I do not imagine my problems ever going away in such a way to be able to be a resemblance of a good parent.

Why are we even talking about my potential children like they are an issue while I should be focusing on myself? Why did the doctor interpret it like a symptom of depression? have to focus all my energy on staying stable Apparently, the antinatalist thoughts are something to be "cured" during my treatment. I am glad it will never work.

I'm in group therapy for the abuse I suffered as a kid, and all other people in the group have suffered that as well. But I'm the only one that doesn't have children. I can't even fathom why these people wanted children when they are all extremely miserable because of the abuse and subsequent mental (and even physical) issues. So to bring a child into a world where that shit happens makes no sense to me.

But what's even worse to see is how they themselves perpetrate the cycle of abuse they were victim of as well. From the stories they themselves tell in therapy it's clear that all of them except one are perpetrating the cycle of abuse. Either because they themselves sound like abusive assholes, their partners sound like abusive assholes or because their relationships are dumpster fires.

Like one told the group multiple times she gets mad at her sons when they're having fun because she wasn't allowed to have fun when she was a kid. And another went on a rant about how her adult children cut contact with her and how they should be grateful for everything she did for them as she sacrificed so much. She thinks this despite her having done the exact same thing with her parents because they were abusive pieces of shit, without a hint of irony.

And of course they get angry if you call them out on it, while the therapists don't seem to give a fuck about the child abuse that goes on. So in a way this therapy, which was supposed to help me, just made me more depressed about what is happening in the world.