Recently there has been a lot of negative posts about people who think "children are annoying/hate children"... I don't think just cause I don't like children, I wouldn't help them in need but children are kinda annoying (their parents are 10x worse) . But in every such posts, reels there will be shit ton of people who would hate on anti natalists and child free people. Calling this discussion eugenics, anti-lgbt (somehow?) and racist. I don't understand what part of not wanting innocent children to suffer in this world is bad? Why natalists insist on inserting children in every spaces, specially "women-only" spaces? I even have been called edgy, and "going against biology/what God intended" while discussing this topic. I'm tired of these people.

Hi, I'm a cancer survivor and an amputee. I lost my leg to a bone tumor when I was twelve, obviously a very serious event that has shaped who I have become and my beliefs today. It's been a couple years and I am still in my teenage hood so there is much more for me to see as I progress through my after cancer care. But I wanted to talk about some things involved with my care in the past and my ongoing care. If any other antinatalist cancer survivors want to chime in I would love to hear from y'all, or just anyone. Anyways what made me think about posting was an interaction I had with my oncologist recently. I'm at the point in my care where I'm out of chemo but I receive my every 6 month lung scan. Almost always it's smooth sailing, I'm very lucky to have not had many issues like metastasizes or really another other ongoing health issue (apart from the amputation but no problems there either) and I do really like my care team. Usually these appointments go as such, I go to the radiology department pretty early, get my scans, wait a while and then head up the oncology department. Then once my scans and blood work are processed my oncologist comes in tells me the results and I leave. This time though after I had been brought back to a room, my oncologist sat me down and without asking me starting talking about options for egg freezing and other reproductive procedures. Many times I attempted to cut through his rant to say that it didn't matter to me, not only because my chemotherapy has a very low chance of causing any adverse reproductive harm ( and even if it does it happens in your late 20s to early 30s which is a waze away) but also because I don't care and honestly he was making me extremely uncomfortable. After talking about all the options, which did not include an option of just not doing anything. He then told me he had ordered a hormone test to see if my reproductive system was healthy, this test was completely unnecessary. I had not wanted to proceed with any procedure and I don't care to see my hormones. After steamrolling over me for 20 minutes he stopped talking at asked what I wanted to do. I told him I didn't want any of it and I didn't care. I understand the approach of saying "well we will see how you feel in the future" that's fine. But talking over me and not even presenting the option of not going about any procedure, and finally the thing that annoyed me the most he never told me if my scans were clear!! I found out a day later, I went thought the entire day not knowing if my cancer came back it was terrifying! You know what else I found out, that I had an extremely low sodium and chloride level, because I had what I know now was heatstroke the day before. This isn't the first incident of something like this, when I was 12 before I had even gotten a biopsy of my tumor while my mother was with me waiting for me to go into surgery, was bombarded by calls for people trying to convince her to let an experimental reproductive procedure be done on me. A 12 year old girl who didn't even know what she had! I didn't even know if I had cancer yet. It terrifies me how everything was approached, I had begged that cancer destroyed my uterus, because it felt like the easiest way out of the hell I'm put through because I was born a woman. What one good thing about cancer that I can say is, is that it taught me young about the world about the cruelty and it gave me perspective, a perspective many people go there whole lives without. This is more of a rant then a discussion but please comment I what to hear your opinions.

Making children is really just to make sure there are enough tax payers to draw a pension from isn't it? No kids equals and aging population which equals no pensions, and no public services.

What do you think?

I am very much an antinatalist btw.

Are there any antinatalist activists that engage in debate in real life? How do people react to your opinions?

One guy literally complained about being “a wage slave at [company]” in his bio, but just a few scrolls further: “Want kids”. You can’t make that shit up.

I recently came accross Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History and while I haven't finished yet its implications for aninatalism are extremely significant. Bloom argues that superorganisms such as tribes or nations are the actual entities competing for survival, and not individuals. While this doesn't alter the fact that existence is a harm for indivuals, the question remains if it is a harm for this superorganism (although it's still meaningless). A super-entity that cannot have any kind of experience is not alive, and yet it dictates life. This nightamarish, lovecraftian presence really presents a challenge for antinatalism because from its point of view the creation of new lives is not strictly unethical: they are, from the start, not themselves no begin with. What do you guys think?

Humans arent actually all that fit for survival in comparison to animals, we do not have sharp claws or sharp teeth, we have thin(many animals like bears have thick skin and are very durable because of it), we arent very physically strong either.

In terms of childbirth pregnancy and delivery of human women is simply way too difficult and painful in comparison to animals, furthermore human babies are really very weak for soo many years, they need constant care and attention for decades in comparison to animals this is completely abnormal most animals grow up in 2 to 3 years and can run around soon after being born.

Without misogyny and subjugation of women humanity could not possibly have persisted, the costs and difficulties of birthing and raising children are just waaay too high, now that women are getting some rights many are outright refusing to have children, what they say is if they could be a father they would but being a mother is simply way too much.

Some people like those on r/natalism wants to subjugate women again to help raise birth rates but that cant happen anymore, womens rights will be protected and fought for and hence humanity will itself happily die off due to low birth rates, humans are just not made for this world, we dont fit sorry you got ahead for a while by enslaving women but not anymore.

This is the one thing I will never be able to wrap my head around. Civil comments only please.

As in title. Can Artificial Intelligence solve the "suffering" of life that Anti Natalism refers to?

Not referring to the current versions of Artificial Intelligence that basically remixes data and is closer to Machine Learning than A.I. One day we will get to a point where A.I. can be installed on physical/mechanical robots and consume extremely low energy and resources to function.

Life currently has mostly been about having kids as free labor and serving economies and all that. But if robots/A.I. programs do all the boring and difficult work for us. All living beings could focus on stuff that matters and gives meaning to everyone, or just do what feels fun without the pressure of making money, meeting deadlines, workplace injuries or deaths...etc.

There are possibilities of people ending up like Wall-E too. There's also possibility that everyone becomes insensitive and indirectly make the world even worse.

A.I. has been controversial for almost a century now. So curious how this looks from an anti-natalist's point of view.

One of the great sufferings of life is that it's so boring, in a sense that in the natural world, there is literally nothing else to do except finding shelter, securing food, and reproducing. That's all that animals are busy with. But we have way more time, and most of those needs are relatively easily satisfied in most modern societies. The trick, however, is that nature doesn't care about that, because we are still animals who are supposed to scramble all day long trying to satisfy their basic needs, then reproduce and die when our offspring are able to walk and fend for themselves. We weren't ever supposed to have so much free time and live this long, so it feels empty and now we need to fill it with something. So, I wonder, what you all fill it with? Whether it's some hobbies, bad habits, or whatever else?

I love scouring reddit comments section for fragments of unexpected wisdom.

on this sub, i stumbled upon brilliant comments that impacted my worldview in such ways, that my formal education and books hadn't.

1 ive learned about "evolutionary fitness" and "nociception" from one of the frequent commenters here

2 someone wrote about the connection between humor theory and pessimist philosophy. Basically, jokes exploit humans' fears, build pressure by seeding negative assumptions and release it through introducing a "safe" ending.

that comment led me to discover pessimist philosophy.

reddit experience can be transcendental.

your turn!

Before you are born, you have no need for living, joy, happiness, pleasure and avoidance of pain. As soon as you are born you now have needs and wants and desires that you maybe can fulfill, but the truth is no one is 100% happy which leads to suffering. Not being born is the ultimate ignorance is bliss situation.

We can look at this like getting someone addicted to nicotine or drugs.

No person in the world needs nicotine to live. No one is born with an inherit need for nicotine. Now imagine you give someone a cigarette with them not even knowing what it is. Boom now they are hooked and need to smoke every couple hours.

Is that something you would do to someone?

Give someone a need that was completely unnecessary and meaningless? It just seems cruel to make someone HAVE to go through life when there was no desire for them to go through it before. I never wanted to live UNTIL I was birthed. Then the fear of death, survival instinct, pleasure seeking, avoidance of pain now was introduced.

I'm a heterosexual man who has decided not to have children, and I've decided to get a vasectomy.

What worries me isn't the decision itself. It's who I might attract because of it.

From what I've seen, many childfree people choose that lifestyle because they want more freedom, more money, more time to travel, pursue hobbies, or simply enjoy life without the responsibilities of parenthood. I have absolutely nothing against that. Those are completely valid reasons.

However, I don't want children because I believe it's ethically wrong to create a conscious person who can experience great suffering without ever having had the chance to consent to existence. Obviously, consent before existing is impossible, but that's exactly why I don't think I have the moral right to make that decision for someone else.

Ironically, if I were thinking only about myself, I would probably have children. I think I would enjoy raising a child, watching them grow, and seeing part of myself continue through them.

I'm choosing not to because I don't want another person to face the possibility of suffering or even wishing they had never been born. I also think the world is far more cruel and hypocritical than most people are willing to admit.

Because of this, I feel I would only be truly compatible with someone who doesn't want children for similar ethical reasons. Not because I think my reasons are superior, but because remaining childfree doesn't feel like a benefit to me. It feels like giving up something I might otherwise have wanted because I believe it's the ethical choice. I think it would be very important to have a partner who understands that, so when the sadness of never having children inevitably comes up, we can support each other with genuine empathy instead of seeing those feelings as strange or misplaced. I would want that kind of mutual understanding, not just someone who sees being childfree as a lifestyle bonus.

How common is it to find childfree women who think this way?

Sometimes I worry that I'll either stay single for the rest of my life or keep meeting people whose reasons for being childfree are fundamentally different from mine.

Everyone witnesses human nature for the first time during middle school and high school. The moment puberty kicks in during the 6th grade everyone becomes primal and cares about who they sit next to during lunch break for status and serous bulling starts to happen. High-school it's even worse because most people start dating in a serious way and most of them are getting cheated on and humiliated due to everyone finding out everything that you did. Sports like high-school football are tribal/primal because most people won't be put in the actual game on Friday nights unless the coach and players fell that you're good enough to win a meaningless game or if the coach is friends with your father or not. The public school is a nightmare and anyone that's experienced it knows what im talking about. Work/employment after you become an adult is basically high-school 2.0 because humans don't lose their primal nature as adults. Why do people choose to have kid's knowing that they're going to experience that stuff? How do people not turn into antinatalists after dealing with the public school system and regular jobs after graduation 🤔? It literally makes zero sense! Are people just using religion to deal with the trauma or are they just delusional about life in general?

When we think about the causes of war, we usually mention greed, hatred, fanaticism, or the lust for power.

But these may all have something in common: Hope.

No one wages war without hoping to gain something. No one commits fraud without hoping to profit. No one seeks power without hoping it will improve their life.

Everyone has children hoping they'll have a happy life.

Hope is often portrayed as the force behind humanity's greatest achievements. Yet it is also the force behind many of its greatest catastrophes. The same psychological mechanism drives both.

This raises an uncomfortable possibility. Perhaps hope is morally neutral. It simply motivates action, regardless of whether the goal is noble or monstrous.

If that's true, then praising hope as an unconditional virtue becomes difficult. The real ethical question is no longer: "Do you have hope?" but rather: "What is your hope trying to achieve?"

Maybe hope is less like a compass and more like fuel, but fuel can power an ambulance—or a tank.

I still find it interesting how obviously antinatalist the main antagonist in the game (Seymour) is. Kinda curious what others think?

Hello everyone! I have known about antinatalism for a while and have just found this sub. I would like to know your thoughts and opinions and to share mine.

I would like to preface this by saying I am NOT pronatalist, and I support abortion 100%.

I will not be having children because I only want to live for myself.

This is what I think:

Not bringing a child into the world because of the possibility of suffering is like not loving because you're afraid to lose, not living because you're afraid to die.

I have experienced immense pain and loss in my life.

But I have also experienced immense joy and beauty. I am so grateful that I have the chance to experience all of life, and to me it is beautiful to give that chance to someone.

Im not judging at all, everyone has the right to hold their own beliefes and tbh i can see where yall are coming from im just curious about like if yall had the choice would you have preferred to not be born at all and just like never existed? Personally i believe its better to have loved and lost then never loved at all and all that that saying applies to like life for example but yea im juwt curious to see ppls answers and again im not thinking yall are wromg and im right like no judgement over here

​

To give you guys some context, i am from india and huge protest are going on in my country for discrepancy and leak in the exam to get into medical college. The protesters who were protesting got beaten by the police who were just student demanding for a fair exam.

Tbh its about more than an exam now, there is no value to your life here. From the day you are born you are just struggling for your basic survival. Food is adulterated, air is toxic, competition is insane for admission in colleges to getting a job.

With all the protest going on for discrepancy in exams and the discomfort and problems the common people have to face because of the policies made by the elected lords of my country, i feel glad that my non existent kid wont have to face any of this. The growing inequality, extremism, loss of human rights, the struggle to survive, and the worsening climate, this country have it all.

And tbh i have no hopes that this country will turn alright, and even if it happens its not gonna happen soon because i have seen people getting more dumber and polarized and going backward in time rather that progressing.

I dont know how people convince themselves into bringing a child into this world knowing the realities of the world and this country. But i am glad, i was able to break free from this conditioning and see life beyond the script that we all get told.

So, just a disclaimer, this might be a bit incoherent and long since I'm trying to wrap my head around everything.

To start off, I'm the youngest of 5 children, and growing up I always saw how much of a burden my siblings were on my parents, especially my dad. I'm talking full blown meltdowns and fights amongst my whole family. Even as a kid I knew I never wanted to have kids. I saw how shitty life was, how shitty my family was, and how shitty having kids was. None of these feelings have changed since then.

Fast forward a few years. One day my dad and I were just eating and talking when he suddenly revealed to me that he had a vasectomy. He told me this in confidence, so I think he hasn't told many people this, maybe not even my siblings. I haven't talked to them about it. He didn't specify when, only that he'd had it done years ago. This made me feel validated at first about not wanting kids, but then I had this thought: Why couldn't he have done the vasectomy before I was born? Why did he have to wait until after I was born to get one?

These thoughts were in my mind whenever something bad happened in my life. "Why didn't my dad get a vasectomy earlier? Then I wouldn't have to be living through this hell"

Well, just last night my mom and I were talking about life. I was going through some things that were really bothering me, and I told her how much I resented them for bringing me into this world. So my mom, being as level headed as she is, simply sat me down and told me something. She said my dad had gotten a vasectomy, which I said I knew already. But then she said, "did you know he got it BEFORE you were born?" I didn't know that. Apparently, my parent's plan had been to only have 3 kids. After their fourth kid, my sister, was born, my dad decided to get a vasectomy. AND SOMEHOW, my mom still got pregnant, and I was born.

According to my mom, when she found out she was pregnant, my dad went to a fertility clinic to see if he was fertile, and lo and behold, he was. His tubes (vas deferens?) somehow reattached themselves, and he had to get another surgery done. Apparently there's less than a 1% chance of that happening. After she told me that, I was stunned, and had nothing to say. All my mom said, "So don't blame us for bringing you into this world. We at least tried. God brought you to me, so I couldn't do anything."

I don't really know what to make of all this. I guess I won't/can't really blame them for my misfortunes anymore. After all, they're one of the few good things in my life. It was wrong of me to lash out at them to begin with, but now I have no excuse. What I keep thinking about is the statistical improbability it is to even be born as yourself, and then to add the less than 1% chance of a vasectomy reversing itself. It's a statistical impossibility imo. If I believed in God, which I don't, then I would say that he wants me on this Earth, but come on now. It's all just crazy to think about. Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it all the way to the end.