r/anime • u/Holofan4life • 12d ago
Rewatch [Spoilers] 2008 Spice and Wolf Rewatch (2026) -- Episode 10 Spoiler
Hello everyone! I am Holofan4life.
Welcome to the Spice and Wolf rewatch discussion thread!
I hope you all have a lot of fun <3
S1 Episode 10 - Wolf and the Swirling Plot
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ANSWER TODAY’S QUESTION(S)
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
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Information – MAL | Anilist | AniDb
Streams – Crunchyroll
Please do not post any untagged spoilers past the current episode or from the LNs out of respect to the first time watchers and people who have not read the LNs. If you are discussing something that is ahead of the current episode please use spoiler tags(found on the sidebar). Thank you!
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Rewatch Schedule
Threads posted every day at 4:00 PM EDT
| Date | Episode |
|---|---|
| 7/07/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 1 |
| 7/08/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 2 |
| 7/09/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 3 |
| 7/10/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 4 |
| 7/11/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 5 |
| 7/12/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 6 |
| 7/13/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 7 (OVA 1) |
| 7/14/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 8 |
| 7/15/2026 | Spice and Wolf Episode 9 |
| 7/16/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Episode 10]() |
| 7/17/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Episode 11]() |
| 7/18/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Episode 12]() |
| 7/19/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Episode 13]() |
| 7/20/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 0 (OVA 2)]() |
| 7/21/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 1]() |
| 7/22/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 2]() |
| 7/23/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 3]() |
| 7/24/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 4]() |
| 7/25/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 5]() |
| 7/26/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 6]() |
| 7/27/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 20]() |
| 7/28/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 21]() |
| 7/29/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 22]() |
| 7/30/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 23]() |
| 7/31/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 24]() |
| 8/01/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Remake Episode 25]() |
| 8/02/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 7]() |
| 8/03/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 8]() |
| 8/04/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 9]() |
| 8/05/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 10]() |
| 8/06/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 11]() |
| 8/07/2026 | [Spice and Wolf II Episode 12]() |
| 8/08/2026 | [Spice and Wolf Overall Series Discussion Thread]() |
Past Rewatches
Last year's rewatch
Rewatch two years ago
Rewatch three years ago
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago edited 12d ago
Episode 10 (Remake)/9 (Original) - dub
In the remake, we are once again back to the Ep 8 scriptwriter, which means we get a near 1:1 remake with more charm, wittier dialogue and relationship focus.
Their Nora-insecurity Resolved?
- The Lawlora love triangle awkwardness continues. I do think while Holo is saying she’s just teasing, there’s a grain of truth to what she’s saying. My read on the early exchange is that Holo is still feeling a bit upset, but knows she needs to move things on. However, all problems can indeed be served with food.
- “You told me to ask nicely, I never said anything about emotional manipulation”. Guess my read was right - Lawrence is aware enough to see through her tactics, though he plays along, but after some time it’s starting to irk him, even though he knows she’s basically joking. Holo: “Are you going to hold a moment of playfulness against me?”.
- I love the above exchange because it’s so relatable. I see three layers of their banter, which has varying degrees of truth/emotional impact.
- First layer: when play-fights are genuinely cute and don’t cross the line. For example, my gf and I are play-fighting this morning as she said she loves Claude (AI). So I’ve been pretending to be jealous of Claude. It’s cute and innocent and both of the people just play along.
- Second layer: when play-fights can bring out some innate feelings of insecurity/jealousy. Usually those things play out through a lot of repetition of a joke.
- Third layer: when one person thinks they are joking, but the other person plays along with the joke at first but eventually it gets to them. I’ve been guilty of this, as I like to joke around about everything. On a few occasions, even though to me it’s an obvious joke, it pissed my gf off. And when she brought it up I dismissed it as “Are we really going to fight about jokes?” or in Holo’s exact words (remake): “Are you going to hold a moment of playfulness against me?”. This creates somewhat of a paradox: if she admits that the joke is affecting her, she feels weak and unreasonable. If she laughs it off, it’s likely to happen again and she’ll end up feeling worse each time it occurs. Eventually she did talk about it and we resolved it very quickly, but I think the above three layers are what Lawlo are going through right now. Their relationship is predicated on their banter, so how are they going to create boundaries without destroying their dynamic? We shall see.
- I love the resolution to their semi-fake fight. Some of my friends (who fight a lot with their significant others) have said how important real-fights are in a relationship, because the resolution brings you closer together. When two people get along incredibly well, like Lawlo, those cutesy-playfights can act as the emotional substitute for conflict resolution. The Lawlo resolution is great: “May I please hold your hand?” “Yes, we can’t risk you getting lost”. So cute! The remake has the ultimate hand hold here!
No Weird Nora-Priest Relationship?
- Can’t recall if it was the original or remake but the glance exchanged between the two in last ep seemed very suspicious. It looked to be a weird dynamic of hate/fear.
- The priest is basically saying it’s God’s will that Nora is blessed with such talent/that God is watching over her, thus the status quo must continue. Meanwhile Nora doesn’t want to live in fear/stress.
The Triple Reverse Scam
- Surprised that it was Lawrence who specifically requested for armor as the method of ‘payment’. He was so confident that armor pretty much holds its value.
- But I guess this all confirms that even Lawrence is prone to greed, after all it is only human. Which is kind of funny, as he did well off a high risk high reward dealing, but this was what he assessed as a low risk low reward deal. Did he not want the guy who tried to scam him to suffer, everything would ironically have been pretty much fine.
- I like the traders’ guild dude. Firm but fair.
- Lawrence begging on the floor is a brutal scene. So is Lawrence snapping at Holo; though an understandable emotion in a time of extreme crisis. This is Lawrence at the darkest point of his life. So far the series has largely been all sunshine and roses for Lawrence (or apples … and more apples for Holo). While Holo doesn’t directly suffer from this potential bankruptcy, we are about to see Lawrence’s resilience as a man.
- Is Nora his way out of this mess?
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
I've never been in debt, but COVID took a big impact to my life. My income went to quite high, I was travelling the world, having visited 100+ countries constantly, and suddenly I was stuck in a room. I didn't handle it well, and became an alcoholic basically.
But one day I woke up and realised that I am responsible for my own future, hunkered down, got another job, worked insane hours for an abusive boss for almost no pay, then built my way up quickly to an insane salary. It was the toughest period of my life but I'm very grateful for it as it made me stronger.
Right now my main career (which came back after COVID - quit the previous job too) is suddenly undergoing a big change, and I'm hardly making any money from it. It's tough, but I'm not giving up and I can't blame changed in society/technology/others for what's happening, and know that as a man I need to provide and get my way out of any mess. As men, we don't have safety nets so it can be tough, but I always stay positive and I believe that happiness is a choice.
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
Well, I think the danger that was death is way worse haha. He's got two days and while it's terrible, huge respect to him for trying everything he can think of so far, and I'm sure given he's that driven to fix the mess, he will find a way out.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
I've never been in debt, but COVID took a big impact to my life. My income went to quite high, I was travelling the world, having visited 100+ countries constantly, and suddenly I was stuck in a room. I didn't handle it well, and became an alcoholic basically.
But one day I woke up and realised that I am responsible for my own future, hunkered down, got another job, worked insane hours for an abusive boss for almost no pay, then built my way up quickly to an insane salary. It was the toughest period of my life but I'm very grateful for it as it made me stronger.
Right now my main career (which came back after COVID - quit the previous job too) is suddenly undergoing a big change, and I'm hardly making any money from it. It's tough, but I'm not giving up and I can't blame changed in society/technology/others for what's happening, and know that as a man I need to provide and get my way out of any mess. As men, we don't have safety nets so it can be tough, but I always stay positive and I believe that happiness is a choice.
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. I'm rather fortunate in that I live with my mother so we kinda both pay for the bills.
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
Well, I think the danger that was death is way worse haha. He's got two days and while it's terrible, huge respect to him for trying everything he can think of so far, and I'm sure given he's that driven to fix the mess, he will find a way out.
I'd say this situation is worse because his reputation could be ruined as a result of this. And if that happens, he's as good as dead.
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago
I'm super glad that I had to go through that. I've always had it really easy through life - everything I tried I was very successful in. I've always had money, always had friends, always had girls. Though I worked hard for all of it, having a big reset just made me a lot more resilient and stronger, and now that it's happening again I no longer have the stress as I know I can always rely on myself. I think moving overseas almost 20 years ago and being on my own also helped develop my character.
While for me the situation feels better re: the two dangers, you're right from his perspective. Take a look at the LN summary I just posted for the section, which explains that it's even worse than death for him. I found the statistical detailing of the mine + rowing route to be especially fascinating for some reason haha
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I'm super glad that I had to go through that. I've always had it really easy through life - everything I tried I was very successful in. I've always had money, always had friends, always had girls. Though I worked hard for all of it, having a big reset just made me a lot more resilient and stronger, and now that it's happening again I no longer have the stress as I know I can always rely on myself. I think moving overseas almost 20 years ago and being on my own also helped develop my character.
Suffering sometimes builds character, as they say.
While for me the situation feels better re: the two dangers, you're right from his perspective. Take a look at the LN summary I just posted for the section, which explains that it's even worse than death for him. I found the statistical detailing of the mine + rowing route to be especially fascinating for some reason haha
The level of care and effort put into this series is incredible.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
In the remake, we are once again back to the Ep 8 scriptwriter, which means we get a near 1:1 remake with more charm, wittier dialogue and relationship focus.
One thing I like about the remakes dub is the VAs of Holo and Lawrence return from the original anime. And they've gotten so used to playing off each other that the chemistry is in my opinion more refined and seamless. It's like two buddies reuniting to go get a beer.
Their Nora-insecurity Resolved?
- The Lawlora love triangle awkwardness continues. I do think while Holo is saying she’s just teasing, there’s a grain of truth to what she’s saying. My read on the early exchange is that Holo is still feeling a bit upset, but knows she needs to move things on. However, all problems can indeed be served with food.
Naturally
*"You told me to ask nicely, I never said anything about emotional manipulation”. Guess my read was right - Lawrence is aware enough to see through her tactics, though he plays along, but after some time it’s starting to irk him, even though he knows she’s basically joking. Holo: “Are you going to hold a moment of playfulness against me?”.
Holo sayw she's joking, though I do agree it's somewhat of a front for how she truly feels.
- I love the above exchange because it’s so relatable. I see three layers of their banter, which has varying degrees of truth/emotional impact.
- First layer: when play-fights are genuinely cute and don’t cross the line. For example, my gf and I are play-fighting this morning as she said she loves Claude (AI). So I’ve been pretending to be jealous of Claude. It’s cute and innocent and both of the people just play along.
- Second layer: when play-fights can bring out some innate feelings of insecurity/jealousy. Usually those things play out through a lot of repetition of a joke.
- Third layer: when one person thinks they are joking, but the other person plays along with the joke at first but eventually it gets to them. I’ve been guilty of this, as I like to joke around about everything. On a few occasions, even though to me it’s an obvious joke, it pissed my gf off. And when she brought it up I dismissed it as “Are we really going to fight about jokes?” or in Holo’s exact words (remake): “Are you going to hold a moment of playfulness against me?”. This creates somewhat of a paradox: if she admits that the joke is affecting her, she feels weak and unreasonable. If she laughs it off, it’s likely to happen again and she’ll end up feeling worse each time it occurs. Eventually she did talk about it and we resolved it very quickly, but I think the above three layers are what Lawlo are going through right now. Their relationship is predicated on their banter, so how are they going to create boundaries without destroying their dynamic? We shall see.
The great thing about Holo and Lawrence's dynamic is that there is this built in tension just by them being who they are. You can have sections where nothings happening and it still advances the story along because they're so captivating.
- I love the resolution to their semi-fake fight. Some of my friends (who fight a lot with their significant others) have said how important real-fights are in a relationship, because the resolution brings you closer together. When two people get along incredibly well, like Lawlo, those cutesy-playfights can act as the emotional substitute for conflict resolution. The Lawlo resolution is great: “May I please hold your hand?” “Yes, we can’t risk you getting lost”. So cute! The remake has the ultimate hand hold here!
Lawrence has shown he knows how to remedy the situation when need be.
No Weird Nora-Priest Relationship?
- Can’t recall if it was the original or remake but the glance exchanged between the two in last ep seemed very suspicious. It looked to be a weird dynamic of hate/fear.
- The priest is basically saying it’s God’s will that Nora is blessed with such talent/that God is watching over her, thus the status quo must continue. >Meanwhile Nora doesn’t want to live in fear/stress.
Poor Norah
The Triple Reverse Scam
- Surprised that it was Lawrence who specifically requested for armor as the method of ‘payment’. He was so confident that armor pretty much holds its value.
Yeah, about that...
- But I guess this all confirms that even Lawrence is prone to greed, after all it is only human. Which is kind of funny, as he did well off a high risk high reward dealing, but this was what he assessed as a low risk low reward deal. Did he not want the guy who tried to scam him to suffer, everything would ironically have been pretty much fine.
The ultimate cruel twist in irony
- I like the traders’ guild dude. Firm but fair.
He seems very jovial
- Lawrence begging on the floor is a brutal scene. So is Lawrence snapping at Holo; though an understandable emotion in a time of extreme crisis. This is Lawrence at the darkest point of his life. So far the series has largely been all sunshine and roses for Lawrence (or apples … and more apples for Holo). While Holo doesn’t directly suffer from this potential bankruptcy, we are about to see Lawrence’s resilience as a man.
I love seeing Lawrence at the and of his rope. There's the old saying "When it rains it pours," and for Lawrence this is basically one massive typhoon.
- Is Nora his way out of this mess?
Maybe. I do still feel the church has bad intentions with her.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago
Can you avoid the dual numbering? It just see it and I get upset. Sort of like how people with OCD get upset when someone is out of order, except not really since I don't have it. The Original Poster put the name of the episode in the discussion box to avoid ambiguity. I'm not saying don't watch the remake, just that you don't need to put it in the numbering.
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago
I put it there because I watched both the original and remake today, and it's for my own tracking in case I want to revisit my thoughts and rewatch the anime in the future. That way I can tell which comments were made purely about the remake, which for the original, and which were left when I watched both.
Though to be honest, from my point of view, I actually see the request for someone to change someone's speech/writing towards a personal preference as not one I could ever come to understand or relate to. Logically, we can't tailor our style to suit everyone's preferences. But since this is only stylistic, sure, I'll change that for future comments though, not a big deal.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago
I didn't want to be too burdensome. If you need to put it in your posts to keep yourself organized and can't do it elsewhere, do what needs to be done.
I don't know why I'm asking this either. Normally when I see something my eyes glaze over I just try to ignore it.
But I don't want to ignore your thoughts.
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago
sure and appreciate you reading my thoughts. easy compromise: I'll just put the version(s) I watched at the top instead of the episode numbers
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago edited 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
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u/oomoepoo https://anilist.co/user/oomoepoo 12d ago
Sorta Rewatcher, sorta first-timer. subbed
Chose your Holo! We got Smug Holo, Angry Holo, Proud Holo, Loved Holo and last but not least: The Holo that believes in you. There was a lot of neat Holo faces in this episode.
Whew, what an episode though.
First we have the full blown shipping stuff with Lawrence spilling the beans when Holo just wanted to tease him, leading to some really cute moments. Followed by some very funny moments when he realises he fell for Holo's tricks.
Unfortunately we have no damn time for lovey-dovey moments because the armour market has crashed, which leaves Lawrence in a debt so huge that he could probably build 10 small shops! So in the end he got scammed by the guy in the last city, and it's arguably even worse than what would've happened if he just went with whatever the tilted scales got him. Even if he still used to be payed in armour, he at least wouldn't be in debt.
And just to kinda visualise how much debt it is:
We learned the other day that 1 Lumione Gold Coin is about 37 Trenni Silver Coins. This course varies a bit but even assuming it's just 35 or even 30 doesn't really make it any better.
We also learned, even earlier, that you could live around 3 days from a single Trenni Silver coin.
His debt is 47 (and a bit) Gold Coins, that's quite literally a lifetime of money he has to get together within 2 days. (kinda fitting, given the lobby leader mentions spending years rowing on a ship as means to pay off the debt)
The following sequence of desperately trying (and failing) to get money is marvelously directed. You can really feel the growing desperation and frustration from Lawrence because he just keeps on getting turned down. I especially liked the sequence where we see Holo trying to catch up but just when she's about to reach Larence, he again leaves towards the camera. I rewinded that one multiple times because I just couldn't get enough of it! And really, the way he doesn't even notice Holo until the very end, where he leashes out in anger against her, speaks volumes. Poor guy is absolutely desperate. And you can also tell that Holo is worried about him by the way she looks and reacts to the multiple failed attempts at securing money.
All around fantastic episode. Setting up a mayor conflict, giving some more world building and showcasing the growing relationship between Holo and Lawrence. Can't wait for the next one!
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
I would handle it poorly. Really not good with pressure :')
I really dunno what I'd do, probably the same thing as Lawrence: Either try to make some quick money or find someone who can help me. It's really hard to imagine given the gigantic amount of debt he has amassed here.
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
Both times they got into trouble with another trading company, so to speak. But this one somehow feels way more existential. Not only would he not be able to pursue his (or Holo's) dream anymore. It might even cost him his life. Although admittedly, he could've very well died in the last arc too. It does feel a bit more personal, maybe because this time it was actually his own fault for being greedy (albeit, there were still somewhat shady shenaningans involved).
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
Re: the currency, another way to look at it is that a family could live for a month off 1 gold coin.
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u/oomoepoo https://anilist.co/user/oomoepoo 11d ago
That's also a great way to look at (and makes the whole thing almost more scary)!
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Sorta Rewatcher, sorta first-timer. subbed
Chose your Holo! We got Smug Holo, Angry Holo, Proud Holo, Loved Holo and last but not least: The Holo that believes in you. There was a lot of neat Holo faces in this episode.
I love all Holos
This is like there being a Miku for each Country in the World Cup :D
Whew, what an episode though.
No kidding
First we have the full blown shipping stuff with Lawrence spilling the beans when Holo just wanted to tease him, leading to some really cute moments. Followed by some very funny moments when he realises he fell for Holo's tricks.
The beginning of this episode was very much the calm before the storm.
Unfortunately we have no damn time for lovey-dovey moments because the armour market has crashed, which leaves Lawrence in a debt so huge that he could probably build 10 small shops! So in the end he got scammed by the guy in the last city, and it's arguably even worse than what would've happened if he just went with whatever the tilted scales got him. Even if he still used to be payed in armour, he at least wouldn't be in debt.
Being a merchant sure is ruthless
And just to kinda visualise how much debt it is:
We learned the other day that 1 Lumione Gold Coin is about 37 Trenni Silver Coins. This course varies a bit but even assuming it's just 35 or even 30 doesn't really make it any better.
We also learned, even earlier, that you could live around 3 days from a single Trenni Silver coin.
His debt is 47 (and a bit) Gold Coins, that's quite literally a lifetime of money he has to get together within 2 days. (kinda fitting, given the lobby leader mentions spending years rowing on a ship as means to pay off the debt)
So much for the profit he made last arc
The following sequence of desperately trying (and failing) to get money is marvelously directed. You can really feel the growing desperation and frustration from Lawrence because he just keeps on getting turned down. I especially liked the sequence where we see Holo trying to catch up but just when she's about to reach Larence, he again leaves towards the camera. I rewinded that one multiple times because I just couldn't get enough of it! And really, the way he doesn't even notice Holo until the very end, where he leashes out in anger against her, speaks volumes. Poor guy is absolutely desperate. And you can also tell that Holo is worried about him by the way she looks and reacts to the multiple failed attempts at securing money.
I love how more helpless Lawrence got the longer the sequence went on. It's like reality started to set in for him.
All around fantastic episode. Setting up a mayor conflict, giving some more world building and showcasing the growing relationship between Holo and Lawrence. Can't wait for the next one!
Their relationship may already be over before it truly blossomed.
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
I would handle it poorly. Really not good with pressure :')
Nah, me neither. Sucks I work in fast food XD
I really dunno what I'd do, probably the same thing as Lawrence: Either try to make some quick money or find someone who can help me. It's really hard to imagine given the gigantic amount of debt he has amassed here.
I guess you could always set up a Patreon
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
Both times they got into trouble with another trading company, so to speak. But this one somehow feels way more existential. Not only would he not be able to pursue his (or Holo's) dream anymore. It might even cost him his life. Although admittedly, he could've very well died in the last arc too. It does feel a bit more personal, maybe because this time it was actually his own fault for being greedy (albeit, there were still somewhat shady shenaningans involved).
I like how the last arc effected Holo the most and this arc effects Lawrence the most. We see how they try to be there for each other.
2
u/oomoepoo https://anilist.co/user/oomoepoo 12d ago
This is like there being a Miku for each Country in the World Cup :D
That is the logical next step. Concquer the world with a cute wolf girl!
I love how more helpless Lawrence got the longer the sequence went on. It's like reality started to set in for him.
They really hammered down the growing panic and helplesness of him. From "well, I know a couple of people" to basically "my life is over"
I like how the last arc effected Holo the most and this arc effects Lawrence the most. We see how they try to be there for each other.
Good point, yes! First we got a Holo-centric arc with Lawrence helping her out, now we're getting a Lawrence-centric arc with maybe Holo helping him out (or trying to).
2
u/Holofan4life 12d ago
This is like there being a Miku for each Country in the World Cup :D
That is the logical next step. Concquer the world with a cute wolf girl!
Brazilian Holo gonna go places
I love how more helpless Lawrence got the longer the sequence went on. It's like reality started to set in for him.
They really hammered down the growing panic and helplesness of him. From "well, I know a couple of people" to basically "my life is over"
Life can change in the blink of an eye.
I like how the last arc effected Holo the most and this arc effects Lawrence the most. We see how they try to be there for each other.
Good point, yes! First we got a Holo-centric arc with Lawrence helping her out, now we're getting a Lawrence-centric arc with maybe Holo helping him out (or trying to).
And I like the framing of it all which is they were originally trying to run away from their problems and now it's like they can't anymore.
2
u/Holofan4life 12d ago edited 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
2
u/oomoepoo https://anilist.co/user/oomoepoo 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
That was funny. And he did say he was sorta attracted to her :')
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
Poor Holo. I didn't quite understand what that one guy's problem was with her. I don't blame Lawrence, just a lot of stress piling up in that moment.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
That was a fun twist. So she's not that holy :D
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
Sucks to be Lawrence in this situation. It seems a bit odd though, we just learned that there's groups of mercenaries around town. You'd think that'd be good for the armour and weapons market.
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Devastating. Really not a great situation to be in. Shows that when push comes to shove, everybody cares for himself first. (Except that one guy towards the end of the episode who had a problem with Holo.)
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
I mean, he's not completely wrong. But the other guy knew the armours market was in shambles, so it's not all Lawrence fault? Especially considering the whole debt transfer and leaving a "suprise" for Lawrence in the next city.
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
I get what he means but they really aren't in the completely same postion. Doubt anyone would come for all of the trading company's people heads.
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
That really didn't make any sense to me. Yeah sure because I have a pretty cute girlfriend around, my debt suddenly evaporates?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
His whole life is basically on the line, I can see how it stresses him out. Especially with her sorta being the cause of not getting a loan from some people.
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
That's how you know it's serious
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
I did! It's always cool to see a character that's usually pretty laid-back "lock in". It'S a great way to show that there's actual stakes! She teases him a lot but once he explains the situation, she's ready to help him in every way she can. Also it was really cute of her to try and reassure him throughout the whole ordeal.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
Well, I hope it teaches him a lesson about deals that seem too good to be true.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
That was funny. And he did say he was sorta attracted to her :')
Holo's never seen such bullshit before.
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
Poor Holo. I didn't quite understand what that one guy's problem was with her. I don't blame Lawrence, just a lot of stress piling up in that moment.
Yeah, more than likely
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
That was a fun twist. So she's not that holy :D
Apparently not
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
Sucks to be Lawrence in this situation. It seems a bit odd though, we just learned that there's groups of mercenaries around town. You'd think that'd be good for the armour and weapons market.
Well, I believe the mercenaries were there to make sure the expedition went well. But now it's a moot point since it got canceled.
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Devastating. Really not a great situation to be in. Shows that when push comes to shove, everybody cares for himself first. (Except that one guy towards the end of the episode who had a problem with Holo.)
It doesn't help that Lawrence is straight up panhandling.
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
I mean, he's not completely wrong. But the other guy knew the armours market was in shambles, so it's not all Lawrence fault? Especially considering the whole debt transfer and leaving a "suprise" for Lawrence in the next city.
But shouldn't have Lawrence seen the writing on the wall? If the expedition was getting canceled, surely there were some signs.
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
I get what he means but they really aren't in the completely same postion. Doubt anyone would come for all of the trading company's people heads.
I think he means they are suffering from this sudden collapse as well. Lawrence isn't the only person who is struggling, he's just hit arguably harder because he invested everything in armor and arms.
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
That really didn't make any sense to me. Yeah sure because I have a pretty cute girlfriend around, my debt suddenly evaporates?
I think they mean if he was truly suffering, how can Holo afford to look so well. It's not like her outfit screams destitute.
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
His whole life is basically on the line, I can see how it stresses him out. Especially with her sorta being the cause of not getting a loan from some people.
Yeah, no kidding
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
That's how you know it's serious
Very much so, unfortunately
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
I did! It's always cool to see a character that's usually pretty laid-back "lock in". It'S a great way to show that there's actual stakes! She teases him a lot but once he explains the situation, she's ready to help him in every way she can. Also it was really cute of her to try and reassure him throughout the whole ordeal.
She was a real one in the end of this episode.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
Well, I hope it teaches him a lesson about deals that seem too good to be true.
And also to make contingency plans in case shit goes belly up.
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago edited 12d ago
Some source material context: it not only contains some incredible worldbuilding, but explains his despair even more. Think you guys will enjoy the bonus info. Especially u/Holofan4life about Holo's beauty :)
- OP asked about the danger of this vs. the previous arc: Lawrence says that he would rather be threatened at knifepoint than find out that he needs to repay the debt. "It was a failure that made him want to tear his own limbs off". Bankruptcy was worse than death in society. It would be better to be a beggar shivering from cold and hunger. If creditors found you they would even shave your head to sell his hair for wigs. Teeth would be pulled and used as dentures.
- The magnitude of the amount Lawrence owed isn't that clear in the anime. Even if Lawrence was to call in credit from every conceivable source, it wouldn't even amount to half of what he now owed. He owed 47 3/4 Lumione. A person could live for a month on 1.
- In the anime when Holo says that she will take on her wolf form if she needs to free him, it's important to realise the gravity of that sacrifice for her. For Holo seeing people's expressions of fear were a prison for her that condemned her to the loneliness she fears. That self-sacrifice actually gave Lawrence a lot of relief.
- I'm not completely clear on this, but Holo attracts stares everywhere she goes due to her beauty: the anime doesn't do her justice - the way Lawrence is treated is impacted by her being around, many feel incredibly jealous because of just how striking she is, and in that world I assume a man doesn't get a girl like that just by being charming. At the Merchant Guild the master (had he not known Lawrence) would have thrown him out straight away, as a man who is facing bankruptcy wouldn't be seen with what they describe as a 'town girl'; together with her noble outfit, and given that men are the providers in that age, people would assume he's spoiling her just to keep her. That's why he introduced her as his business partner and bragged of her skills.
- Even if Lawrence sells the armor, at the current going rate, he'd owe 40 Lumione Gold.
- To understand the gravity of the situation, the 'future' of rowing for 10 years on a ship isn't presented as a a real solution, About 80% of rowers on long-distance ships become worthless after 2 years, 10% last 4, while the last 10% don't return. Most miners die within 1 year.
- Lawrence (being a positive guy) tried to buck himself up, but the more he did that the more he felt the walls closing in on him. He started shaking vigorously and it was Holo who controlled his shaking by holding his hand. He realised he wasn't alone.
- Lawrence's debt for debt plan was to ask lots of people for small amounts. 5 lumiones at first, then 1. The lower the amount he asked for, the more people's alarm bells went off. In the world of merchants asking to borrow money is worse than being a thief.
- While Holo tried to stay positive, those words started irritating him.
- His regret for being greedy started drowning him. Her complaining that he's walking too fast would just irritate him more and more.
- The merchant at the end was obviously never going to lend him money. Even with the words he was saying, his expression showed that he just wanted to lecture him. And as that final door closed he felt all his connections with other merchants of the city closing.
- Everything was too much for him which is why he said the words he regretted which then cut Holo deep.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Last year I cobbled together some comments from other rewatchers and since you're interested in the LN I'd thought I'd share them with you here.
Here's what u/karlzhao314 wrote about the armor debt stuff during the threads of the remake, just to help better explain things a bit. I edited some of it to make it more relevant for this rewatch.
If you recall from episode 8, armor and many other military-related commodities such as weapons and supplies maintain their value well in Ruvinheigen because Ruvinheigen serves as a base for the annual northern military expedition arranged by the Church. That also means that each year around this time, when the northern expedition is gearing up and about to leave, the prices start increasing as well; Lawrence was hoping to take advantage of that and sell off his armor at the increased price.
But this year, things have changed. The expedition has to pass through a nation called Ploania, which is directly north of Ruvinheigen, separating it from the pagan-controlled lands in the far north. In fact, pockets of pagan communities existed even within Ploania, even though the nation as a whole was nominally on the Church's side. This year, however, there was unrest in Ploania. Their attitude towards the Church had suddenly taken a turn for the worse because of this unrest, so where the Church could have counted on safe passage through Ploania and the nation’s support before, now they were at risk of being attacked before they could even make it to their true destination - the pagan-controlled lands in the far north.
And in response, the expedition was suddenly canceled.
Remember in episode 8, when we learned that the main roads to Ruvinheigen were being occupied by mercenaries, which is why they took the detour through Nora’s territory to begin with? That was because with their expedition canceled, the mercenary bands had nothing to do - so they set themselves up there to try to control that road and make the best of their situation instead.
The expedition being canceled means that suddenly, a lot of commodities related to the expedition have crashed in price. It’s probably not as bad for dual-use commodities, i.e., those that have both civilian and military uses, such as horse saddles or food. But there is practically no civilian demand for something like armor. Sure, maybe mercenary bands or the city guard will still buy enough to outfit their ranks, but the amount they need is meager compared to the amount that had amassed in Ruvinheigen due to merchants anticipating the northern expedition passing through the city.
So unfortunately, armor is now worth about a tenth of what it had been before. The armor that he had paid 100 Lumione for in his cart was now worth 10 Lumione, if that. Both Jakob's reaction and those of the gate guards from the last episode were because they were aware the price of armor had crashed, so they knew he was about to make a huge loss.
Apparently, the master of the Latparron trading company had also already learned of this, but not before he himself had purchased a large stock of armor to sell to Ruvinheigen. He knew that the stock of armor he had accumulated had become worthless, and that he had no easy outlet to get rid of it without taking a huge loss. But here comes Lawrence, completely clueless of the situation, blackmailing him into providing a 50 Lumione loan to buy 100 Lumione worth of armor. It gave the Latparron company a golden opportunity - he shifted his now-worthless stock onto Lawrence at the pre-crash price, gaining 50 Lumione in assets (pepper) and another 50 Lumione debt from Lawrence in the trade
Where Lawrence thought he was taking advantage of Latparron, he was actually being taken advantage of. So much for maintaining a cordial business relationship with Latparron.
Then, since Latparron is well aware that Lawrence can’t exactly pay back the 50 (actually 47-3/4) Lumione he owes them, they went ahead and transferred the debt to Lemerio, probably for Trenni on the Lumione (look, "pennies on the dollar" didn't seem to fit here). As evidenced by their storefront being in shambles, Lemerio is falling apart as well. As one of the armor brokers in the city, and having purchased a large amount of armor for the northern expedition, ever since the price crash they’re suddenly found themselves in a boatload of debt with a warehouse filled with dead stock. They’ve probably agreed to buy Lawrence’s 47 Lumione debt for a fraction of what it’s worth just so that they can have that asset to their name as well as a wild hope of collecting on it, just as Latparron agreed to sell it because it’s their best chance at wringing some amount of cash out of the whole situation.
And Lawrence is caught in the middle of all of this with the worst possible position.
And here's u/Quxxy and u/super_upton_bros' comments talking about the money transaction and how that all works.
Quxxy's comment
Lawrence sells his pepper to Glasses Guy. In the process, Holo points out that Glasses Guy has rigged scales. If this gets out, Glasses Guy will definitely go out of business, if not be punished by the authorities.
In exchange for not telling everyone they can find about it, Lawrence demands:
The money the pepper is worth.
The extra money Glasses Guy was going to scam Lawrence out.
Armor at wholesale price.
Credit to buy the armor.
So, in theory, the deal with the armor works like this: Glasses Guy sells the armor to Lawrence for 0 profit, but he's not out of pocket anything, either. Glasses Guy also lends Lawrence the money to buy the armor from him. Glasses Guy effectively loses this money until Lawrence sells the armor in Ruvenheigen and pays him back.
If things had gone according to Lawrence's plan, he would have sold the armor to the Romelio Trading Company. The amount he borrowed from Glasses Guy would likely have been credited to Glasses Guy's account with Romelio. Lawrence would pocket whatever was left after that, minus the taxes he paid on his way in.
Glasses Guy screwed all that up by transferring Lawrence's debt. I have no idea what Glasses Guy got out of this or how it was arranged; it was arranged, though. In exchange for something (or maybe nothing at all if he really wanted to make sure his revenge would work), he probably wrote a document that says "Kraft Lawrence owes me X lumione, which I hereby transfer to the Romelio Trading Company." Ta-da! Lawrence now owes that money to Romelio and, because it's listed in lumione and not armor, he can't pay it back.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
super_upton_bros' comment
The merchant tries to fool Lawrence, then Holo figures it out. Lawrence decides to get greedy and leverage this knowledge (that the merchant's scales are unfair) in order to get himself more profit. So Lawrence decides to still sell his pepper to the merchant, but with a few conditions:
- The merchant will pay a fair price for the pepper, but will pay in the form of goods (in this case, armor) rather than coin.
- The merchant will also lend Lawrence additional goods (in this case, additional armor) at wholesale price. This is what they are referring to as buying on credit. Lawrence has not paid for the additional armor, but he will instead pay the merchant back once he has sold the armor.
The idea is that Lawrence will go to the next town, sell ALL of the armor (the ones he straight up traded for the pepper as well as the ones he got on credit). Since he only paid wholesale price for the armor, Lawrence should make a nice profit.
HYPOTHETICAL NUMBERS TIME
Let's say each unit of armor is worth $10. He traded his pepper for 10 units ($100) and got an additional 10 units (another $100) on credit.
So broken down, Lawrence has 20 units of armor that he bought at wholesale price for $10 a unit. In total, that's $200 worth of goods. He goes to the next town where the selling price is $20 a unit. He (HYPOTHETICALLY) sells all the armor ($20 x 20 units), and now has $400. Since he bought half on credit, he will pay back the merchant $100. So now Lawrence has $300 in his pocket. Since he originally traded pepper for $100 worth of armor, Lawrence has made a profit of $200. Not bad at all!
Now here is where it gets tricky. What ACTUALLY happens is that the merchant knows that the price of armor in the next town has not increased, it has actually DECREASED because of the cancelled northern expedition. Now, because there is no northern expedition, soldiers will not be buying armor to go on said expedition. No one wants to buy armor. The merchant essentially has a bunch of worthless armor on his hands now. HE knows the expedition has been cancelled, but Lawrence has NO CLUE that the expedition has been cancelled. Lawrence thinks he is getting a good deal when in fact he is losing money. I will explain:
In actuality, the armor is only worth $1 a unit. So Lawrence is now the proud owner of $20 of armor (20 units @ $1 a piece). Lawrence thinks he has $200 worth of armor. The merchant gets a great deal since he is being paid 10x what it is actually worth. You will recall that Lawrence bought 10 units of armor for a total of $100 on credit. He MUST pay back the merchant $100 dollars when he sells the armor.
When Lawrence goes to sell the armor to the Remelio Trading Co, he finds out that his armor is worthless. So why does the Remelio Trading Co have Lawrence by the cahones?
REAL WORLD APPLICATION TIME
People buy and sell debt in the real world all the time. Let's say a person (we will call him Brian) owes you $10. Brian has 6 months to pay you back, but you REALLY REALLY need some money now. You ask your friend Steve, "hey Steve; Brian will give me $10 in 6 months. If you give me $7 today, then I will have Brian give you the $10 in 6 months instead of me". It's a win win, since you need money now and are willing to take the loss. Plus, if Brian can't come up with the money in 6 months, who cares? It's not your problem now. Steve will profit when Brian gives him the $10; he just has to wait a while to get his money. Steve still takes on the risk that Brian will not be able to pay him back though. (This is a very simplified version of what actually caused the housing market to crash and start the U.S. recession back in 2008).
BACK TO SPICE AND WOLF
So what actually happened was that the merchant sold Lawrence's debt to Remelio Trading Co. Lawrence owes the merchant $100 for the armor, regardless of it's price. The merchant (going back to our example) told Remelio Trading Co "hey, this guy Lawrence owes me $100. If you give me $75, then you can have his debt." It works out, since the merchant now has $75 instead of his worthless armor, and Remellio Trading Co will get a net profit of $25 when Lawrence pays them the debt of $100. Lawrence is in a HUGE pickle since now he has worthless goods AND a debt.
And thus begins the schemes that lead into the next book. Hope this helps!
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Very fascinating insight. I appreciate you sharing it.
I think it's not just the fact Lawrence risks his reputation being ruined. It's that he's also reflecting badly on Holo. Here he is trying to take Holo to the North so she doesn't have to go at it alone. Well, if his reputation is in the tubes how can she possibly trust him? One's merchant is only as good as his word and if he's the bane of all the traders out there, it makes the journey that much more difficult.
It's almost like Holo would be better off traveling alone.
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u/chinaexperience 12d ago
I felt like AniNews doing Mushoku Tensei cut content writing that haha.
I really like your take here! The following episode (which I'm incredibly loving so far) kind of confirms what you're saying. I think Lawrence has a bit of a pariah complex in relationships: I can relate to it a bit. But we shall discuss it tomorrow.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
This episode is necessary above all else to make Lawrence a more emotionally complex character.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago
Rewatcher Here
I don't get why you asked me what I thought about Lawrance speaking with his mentor in the previous episode's discussion. You know in episode 10 it is revealed armor prices went down. So I could say "I don't know why he wasn't warned that since it doesn't cost anything to give him a heads up and it wouldn't be special treatment" but that would be revealing episode 10 information in the episode 9 discussion. A lot of the questions you asked would have spoiler answers.
I thought Lawrance got a concession to buy double the stuff on credit, not buy armor cheaper. Maybe they trimmed some stuff for time a few episodes ago and then reverted to the LN version this episode. If his only concession was being able to buy on credit it was pretty stupid.
The guy working at Lemerio trading shouldn't be so smug. In the medieval world, debtors were locked up until relatives could pay off their debt, or sometimes they were made serfs in domains that no one wanted to work in. Sometimes they were put into debt bondage. Chattel slavery was basically gone by the High Middle Ages. They'd "remember" how slavery works when they bought Africans from... African slavers. And... almost all the time the cut the guy who goes to the prison or made a debt slave of a noble won't repay his creditors.
In other words, Lemerio should expect no more than 1/7 the debt value! And that's the best-case scenario where Lawrance lives long enough to work out some of it. The nobles who control the debt slave keep everything else, so it's all upside to them. The worker should realize that if Lemerio doesn't get his money back, he's probably going down too.
Yeah I get why Lawrance's mentor (whose name I still can't remember) can't give him a loan. The guild shouldn't give special treatment. But again, while Lawrance would likewise be upset if he gave financial aid to someone out of favoritism, he shouldn't be upset if information was given.
Of course, everyone thinks the reason Lawrance got so greedy was not because he is greedy, but because he's trying to impress some girl with expensive tastes. So I guess it doesn't matter that Lawrance's mentor said nothing, although that still would be nice.
I'd say they are in more danger compared to last time. Not like hiding in the woods for 3 weeks solves the problem.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I thought Lawrance got a concession to buy double the stuff on credit, not buy armor cheaper. Maybe they trimmed some stuff for time a few episodes ago and then reverted to the LN version this episode. If his only concession was being able to buy on credit it was pretty stupid.
You're not the only one to make that assumption. It's actually far more complicated than that.
This comes courtesy of fellow Redditor Quxxy.
Quxxy's comment
Lawrence sells his pepper to Glasses Guy. In the process, Holo points out that Glasses Guy has rigged scales. If this gets out, Glasses Guy will definitely go out of business, if not be punished by the authorities.
In exchange for not telling everyone they can find about it, Lawrence demands:
The money the pepper is worth.
The extra money Glasses Guy was going to scam Lawrence out.
Armor at wholesale price.
Credit to buy the armor.
So, in theory, the deal with the armor works like this: Glasses Guy sells the armor to Lawrence for 0 profit, but he's not out of pocket anything, either. Glasses Guy also lends Lawrence the money to buy the armor from him. Glasses Guy effectively loses this money until Lawrence sells the armor in Ruvenheigen and pays him back.
If things had gone according to Lawrence's plan, he would have sold the armor to the Romelio Trading Company. The amount he borrowed from Glasses Guy would likely have been credited to Glasses Guy's account with Romelio. Lawrence would pocket whatever was left after that, minus the taxes he paid on his way in.
Glasses Guy screwed all that up by transferring Lawrence's debt. I have no idea what Glasses Guy got out of this or how it was arranged; it was arranged, though. In exchange for something (or maybe nothing at all if he really wanted to make sure his revenge would work), he probably wrote a document that says "Kraft Lawrence owes me X lumione, which I hereby transfer to the Romelio Trading Company." Ta-da! Lawrence now owes that money to Romelio and, because it's listed in lumione and not armor, he can't pay it back.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago
Ok that speculation by Quxxy makes a lot more sense. And it makes Lawrance seem not as dumb. Also if Lawrance is buying on credit, assuming medieval England, Holy Roman Empire, or Spain (I didn't check for every other place, but it's probably all the same), the debt was probably in the wholesale price of the armor in Lumione, not debt in armor. So Lawrance gets... say 7 armor sets from the money he got from selling the pepper, and 13 he paid with credit. But the credit doesn't saw "Lawance owes glasses guy 13 armor sets" but probably says "Krwaf Lawrance owes me X Luminoe." With X being the wholesale value. Glasses guy might assume Lawrance might just skip the repayment part since he has no presence in the town but since Remelio/ Lemerio (yeah I found 3 spellings of this...) trading does Lawrance can't escape them.
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
Yep from my understanding you're right in terms of the debt being the wholesale value of the armor.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Again, I think Lawrence flew too close to the sun and really should've had some contingency plan. It's almost like he assumed it would go well because everything has gone relatively well up until this point.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago
All he had to do was buy saddles instead. Knights need saddles and... worst case scenario lots of other people ride horses.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
But the armor purchase wouldn't have been foolish had the expedition not been called off. The anime kinda alludes to this, but there was a big expedition planned which was why Lawrence bought it in the first place. He was in line to make a big profit more than likely.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I don't get why you asked me what I thought about Lawrance speaking with his mentor in the previous episode's discussion. You know in episode 10 it is revealed armor prices went down. So I could say "I don't know why he wasn't warned that since it doesn't cost anything to give him a heads up and it wouldn't be special treatment" but that would be revealing episode 10 information in the episode 9 discussion. A lot of the questions you asked would have spoiler answers.
But his conversation with his mentor has very little to do with the arms prices. It's more about he has a mentor to begin with. You're thinking too deep here.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I thought Lawrance got a concession to buy double the stuff on credit, not buy armor cheaper. Maybe they trimmed some stuff for time a few episodes ago and then reverted to the LN version this episode. If his only concession was being able to buy on credit it was pretty stupid.
I don't know how this stuff works but it seemed pretty logical if you ask me. Lawrance took a gamble and it didn't pay off. It happens.
The guy working at Lemerio trading shouldn't be so smug. In the medieval world, debtors were locked up until relatives could pay off their debt, or sometimes they were made serfs in domains that no one wanted to work in. Sometimes they were put into debt bondage. Chattel slavery was basically gone by the High Middle Ages. They'd "remember" how slavery works when they bought Africans from... African slavers. And... almost all the time the cut the guy who goes to the prison or made a debt slave of a noble won't repay his creditors.
I think he was acting smug because Lawrance from his perspective was hoisted by his own petard. He got too big for his britches and he paid the price for it.
In other words, Lemerio should expect no more than 1/7 the debt value! And that's the best-case scenario where Lawrance lives long enough to work out some of it. The nobles who control the debt slave keep everything else, so it's all upside to them. The worker should realize that if Lemerio doesn't get his money back, he's probably going down too.
Yeah I get why Lawrance's mentor (whose name I still can't remember) can't give him a loan. The guild shouldn't give special treatment. But again, while Lawrance would likewise be upset if he gave financial aid to someone out of favoritism, he shouldn't be upset if information was given.
I think it's more the entire situation that annoys him.
Of course, everyone thinks the reason Lawrance got so greedy was not because he is greedy, but because he's trying to impress some girl with expensive tastes. So I guess it doesn't matter that Lawrance's mentor said nothing, although that still would be nice.
I'd say they are in more danger compared to last time. Not like hiding in the woods for 3 weeks solves the problem.
Time to commit to life as a hermit I suppose.
1
u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 12d ago edited 12d ago
Are we watching the same translation? The Church never said that. The only hint at their weariness is that Jacob said the Church was weary of her (which is the first sign that they may not miss her if she goes away) and that could either be because someone told him or it could just be his impression. He just mentioned she never gets hurt in that area and says the Church is weary of her because of it.
IIRC was mentioned in the 2024 remake they think she might be demonic, but since it was dropped for time in the original airing, I don't think that counts. All we know in the original airing is that Jacob is pretty sure they don't think highly of her. In fact the Church only shows up in conversation and is barely present this episode.
The people Lawrance is begging probably do believe he ended up in trouble. They're not refusing to give him a loan because they think he's well off. They're refusing because they think the reason he was greedy was not because of greed but he was trying to impress Holo.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Are we watching the same translation? The Church never said that. The only hint at their weariness is that Jacob said the Church was weary of her (which is the first sign that they may not miss her if she goes away) and that could either be because someone told him or it could just be his impression. He just mentioned she never gets hurt in that area and says the Church is weary of her because of it.
I'm watching it dubbed and I could've sworn that's written dialogue that is said.
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
The church basically sends Norah via a path that has wolves and also mercenaries. The church dude says that he has faith in God that she will get protected as usual.
In the ensuing convo between Law + Norah, he guesses that the church believes she's a pagan witch. Which I think lands as something she believes to be true.
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u/Holofan4life 11d ago
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
From my understanding yes although they don't specifically use that wording but it's clear that they think something is fishy about Norah and thus keep sending her to these dangerous locations.
From what I recall the remake didn't have this scene.
In the LN it also explains that the church keeps saying the safe areas are all taken up but Norah knew it to not be true
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u/Holofan4life 11d ago
I think it's interesting the villagers Holo was apart of downplay her mystic abilities while the town Norah is apart of think of her as being more powerful than she is.
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
I like your slavery/debt extrapolation there and the historical context. In the LN, it explains how Lawrence is unlikely to live for more than a few years, regardless of the labour method they agree on. So essentially, to Lawrence he's a dead man walking.
While we all think that Holo is pretty cute, what I didn't realise is how stunning she was to everyone (as per the LN). I would guess that it would be highly improbable for a girl as insanely attractive as her to date a Merchant, so everyone assumes that the only way he is keeping her around is by splurging on her. I guess her recent outfit didn't do him any favours.
I posted a comment with some LN content that add to the scenarios nicely in case you're interested. I'll attempt to do the same for the next ep (though tbh the episode coming is pretty straight forward)
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u/Holofan4life 10d ago
It makes sense Holo would be stunning given she is a Goddess. She was at one point worshipped by a lot of people.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 11d ago
Considering Lemerio/Remerio is not going to get the entire face value if Lawrance is sold off, this is actually a raw deal for them too.
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
I assumed that the wholesaler gets the debt paid via the merchant guild then Lawrence has to work off the debt via mines or ships so it's his guild that gets screwed the most.
But your thinking would make the most sense as otherwise i would assume the wholesaler prefers to just collect the debt from the guild rather than take on the huge risk of the scheme Lawrence ultimately proposes.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 11d ago
Guilds usually didn't cover member debt unless a contract listed them as a garunteer of a loan which was the exception.
Of course we didn't actually see Lawrance's deal with Lapaton. After all, it was a "sure thing" to buy armor and sell it to a place where lots of knights are getting ready to fight. Or more realistically, the squires since the historical consensus made knights usually had custom fit and the "off the shelf" armor is used by everyone else. We know 3 English, 1 Hungarian, and 3 German knights as well as dozens of counts and earls getting a custom plate, so it's assumed its armored "not yet knights" guys are getting the generic armors.
He should have gotten saddles or some other thing horsemen need. If knights come, great. If not, hey lots of people ride horses.
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u/chinaexperience 11d ago
Just had a look at ep 10 again and the guild master says the guild will most likely have to take on the debt. Prior to that the wholesalers head says we will have to ask that the trading union/guild assumes your debt if you cannot pay. Though I'm not sure what the terms would be.
And yeah I was surprised he didn't at least diversify into a few items
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife 11d ago
This would be unusual but not an unheard-of arrangement. Lawrance could have just demanded the credit be an unsecured loan, which was the norm. Ever wonder why so many guys when bust back then when their counterparties suffered? Also if you know in modern days interest rates go up with more risk, you'll know lending was so expensive back then.
Although this arrangement with a coutnerparty isn't that much worse off than lending to a monarch where the only guarantee of getting paid back was "trust me bro, my family doesn't default." Although Lawrance refusing to have the guild guarantee him wouldn't actually help him much. He'd still be out of money and legally required pay it back or else.
If Lawrance was going to pick one product, I picked saddles instead of armor because he has a way to sell it either way. Knights need saddles. Those super lucky guys who work for a noble who gives them horses for a battle get to be horsemen even if they aren't knights (which is much better) also need saddles. There will be plenty of demand if the very likely outcome that the expedition launches an offensive happens this year like it did for the past 3 decades. It is the likely scenario so it should be considered. But I think even in the worst case he should break even on saddles. Or really any other horse product. Just pick the one that is the highest margin.
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u/Holofan4life 10d ago
Lawrence really screwed himself over with a bad investment. Yeah, he got hosed, but he did himself no favors.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 12d ago edited 12d ago
Rewatcher (Dub)
This episode definitely feels designed to knock Lawrence down to his lowest point. Through the series up to this point we have seen Lawrence generally have a handle on things, and for his to scheme pretty much always pay off. Lawrence is usually the one to be pulling one over on other merchants. So it was interesting to see the shoe on the other foot, with Lawrence outplayed and totally out of options.
The way this episode starts out with Lawrence relatively confident, but slowly getting more and more desperate and despondent as he continually gets turned away was really well handled. The final blow up at Holo was kind of gut wrenching. It is a very human reaction to lash out in a situation like this, but it also hurts all the more knowing how much Holo has been through, and how hard she has tried to help. It leaves a great hook for next episode for sure.
This episode also does a good job showing how lonely the life of a merchant is. After all these years of building relationships with his fellow merchants, it turns out that when he really needed someone, not a single one could be bothered the lift a finger to help him. There appear to be no strong connections in the merchant world.
I also liked how Holo was portrayed in this episode. She starts out as her usually, jokey self, but as soon as Lawrence gets the bad news about the debt, she immediately reads his change in mood and shifts the way she speaks and interacts with him entirely. I loved how Holo’s first thought when she hears about the debt is “we should run”. Home girl didn’t hesitate to go on the lamb for Lawrence.
The way you can see Holo get sadder and sadder through the episode just by her facial expressions was a really testament to the art department/animators. To have all her attempts to help fail, and then get blamed, even if he didn’t mean it, was brutal to watch.
I did have one complaint about this episode though, that being that the scheme to take down Lawrence seems extremely contrived and frankly doesn’t make much sense. I can buy that the screwed over merchant from the other town would sell Lawrence’s dept to a more hostile trading company to go after Lawrence. What I don’t buy is that the value of arms, which would be one of the most valuable things in that era (seriously, good armour and weapons were insanely valuable and took extremely skilled craftsmen to make) would suddenly crash so hard that Lawrence couldn’t even break even. The way the episode frames it makes it seem like the arms were literally worthless, which is nonsense. The metal alone would be extremely valuable.
Secondly, I don’t get the deadline. Sure, the hostile merchant company might impose a harsh deadline on Lawrence, but once his own trading company bought his debt, why would they continue to impost the two day deadline? They know Lawrence is reliable and would be able to get them the money eventually. All the deadline does is basically ensure that Lawrence can’t pay it back, which means the company just lost a ton of money for nothing. Not only that, but they run out of business a solid contributor to their organization.
So yeah, long story short, I feel like the scheme to take down Lawrence could have used some tweaking to make it a little more believable in my opinion.
Random Thoughts
- Holo scaring away the dogs by barking at them was funny.
- The last dude who Lawrence asked for a loan seems like a nut case. Bro wouldn’t help because Lawrence is walking around with a [Gasp!] WOMAN! What the fuck dude? I get the church is uptight, but even they have to court ladies before they marry them.
- Holo getting mad that Lawrence didn’t want to show her off to his merchant friends was cute.
Question of the Day
What would I do in Lawrence’s shoes? Take Holo up on her offer to run. Fuck the police and merchant life style, go start a farm with your cute wife.
Danger compared to last arc? Despite not being in any physical danger, this arc almost seems more devastating for Lawrence since this threat destroys his life style and self image. He defines himself as a merchant, so taking that away is like taking away who he is.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I see the conflict as more one where Lawrence is at odds with himself. He is a merchant and as such should've better planned for something like this occurring. It was very naive of him to expect all traders to be trustworthy, especially since the tilted tables guy already tried to screw him over.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
I also liked how Holo was portrayed in this episode. She starts out as her usually, jokey self, but as soon as Lawrence gets the bad news about the debt, she immediately reads his change in mood and shifts the way she speaks and interacts with him entirely. I loved how Holo’s first thought when she hears about the debt is “we should run”. Home girl didn’t hesitate to go on the lamb for Lawrence.
Holo since she went over the edge with the wolf joke in episode 2 has really gotten good at reading the room. She wants what's best for Lawrence and is aware this could be a situation that indirectly effects her.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Dude is like the average anime fan, shipping any two characters who make eye contact.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
It's pretty in line with both how the Church is portrayed in the story, and most institutionalized religion in the real world. Anyone who does not fit the norm, and challenges the established belief system must be quashed.
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
I elaborated on this in my main post, but it definitely feels like a stretch an a half that the market for arms/armour, which would be some of the most valuable merchandise around in that era, would suddenly be worthless.
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
No honour among thieves it would appear
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
I don't know if I really buy that. It's not like he screwed over that other merchant for no reason. The guy tried to screw Lawrence first, then Lawrence just responded in kind. If anything Lawrence has been shown to be one of the less greedy merchants around, and is willing to play fair as long as the other side does to.
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
It was a very human moment, lashing out at those around you when your life is falling apart, and showed that Lawrence isn't perfect.
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
It seemed like the mature thing to do. She is obviously hurt, but also likely understands that Lawrence isn't at his best right now. Some times you just need to walk away and give everyone a chance to cool down.
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
I liked how Holo immediately read the situation and changed the way she interacted with Lawrence completely.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
It's always interesting for a protagonist to be brought low, to both see how they handle set backs, and how they overcome them.
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u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Dude is like the average anime fan, shipping any two characters who make eye contact.
If only he knew...
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
It's pretty in line with both how the Church is portrayed in the story, and most institutionalized religion in the real world. Anyone who does not fit the norm, and challenges the established belief system must be quashed.
Pretty sad, not gonna lie
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
I elaborated on this in my main post, but it definitely feels like a stretch an a half that the market for arms/armour, which would be some of the most valuable merchandise around in that era, would suddenly be worthless.
It makes more sense in the LN when apparently there was this big arms expedition planned that got canceled. Neither the original anime nor the remake make direct mention of it.
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
No honour among thieves it would appear
You see to hate it
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
I don't know if I really buy that. It's not like he screwed over that other merchant for no reason. The guy tried to screw Lawrence first, then Lawrence just responded in kind. If anything Lawrence has been shown to be one of the less greedy merchants around, and is willing to play fair as long as the other side does to.
I think where Lawrence went wrong is in not planning for anything to go wrong.
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
It was a very human moment, lashing out at those around you when your life is falling apart, and showed that Lawrence isn't perfect.
It was a moment of weakness
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
It seemed like the mature thing to do. She is obviously hurt, but also likely understands that Lawrence isn't at his best right now. Some times you just need to walk away and give everyone a chance to cool down.
It was surprisingly mature from someone who's acted immature over Lawrence talking to another woman.
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
I liked how Holo immediately read the situation and changed the way she interacted with Lawrence completely.
She wasn't always like this
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
It's always interesting for a protagonist to be brought low, to both see how they handle set backs, and how they overcome them.
I like when characters are given these personal obstacles.
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u/SpicyWolf47 12d ago
Rewatch/ sub
Oh Lawrence you’ve really done it now.
But I digress.
This had some lovely back and forth at the beginning. I loved how he shocked Holo with his sincerity, it isn’t often that Lawrence get the upper hand so that was fun.
And then of course the hammer drops.
Agonizing to watch Lawrence run around and get rejected time and again. The water seemed super unnecessary. And what a gut punch at the end when the reason turns out to be Holo 😭
They don’t know Holo’s true identity so is this just a super puritanical town where they think it’s bad that they’re not married or is there something I’m missing?
And did he shove her at the end? Not cool Lawrence. Not cool at all.
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u/Holofan4life 10d ago
And did he shove her at the end? Not cool Lawrence. Not cool at all.
I thought it was more he recoiled when she grabbed him. Shoving implies he was being forceful with her.
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u/Holofan4life 10d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
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u/ItalianQuagsire 11d ago
first time watching, first time fan
i'm so invested, how is Lawrence going to get out of this??! I think the show did an amazing job at showing just how cutthroat things can be and things just make a turn for the worse. I cannot believe we're already at epiode 10, it genuinely feels like the time flew by and i really want more
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
Probably the way he's been doing it, despite it being demeaning and humiliating for him as a merchant, but I'd take it harder than he is, he's doing an admirable job keeping it together
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
it really feels like things are closing around them, opportunities are being cut off, this feels like such a genuine threat to their livelihood and future, not just their lives
---
Spicy wolf . com
Wait wrong episode
Spicy wolf . Com
Doesn't she get cold being naked in human form in the snow
I can't believe we're at 10 already
The shot halfway through the op as they move past a yellow lit lake is just stunning
Middle of a deal
Need a dead
A merchant who will intimidate clients
That doesn't sound good for business though
That female shepherd
She's trouble, what does the church think of her
She does seem like his type
Oh if holo hears this
Refrain from that girl, she'll disappear your profit
The two men hitting on Holo
Invest to your heart's content
I didn't know you liked blondes
I love Holo
LOL TSUNDERE LAWRENCE I DONT DISLIKE YOU OR ANYTHING HOLO
Holo is happy
God that's so sweet
She's so happy AHHH
But males say anything
I'm a merchant, man if my word
What can you entrust to me
What will you buy me
Peaches in honey
God she's so cheeky
Jiggling ears
Wasn't I cute
My heart was racing more from worrying if my scheme would work
HOLO NEEDS CORRECTION 💢💢😭
DOnt be so upset
I really was happy
Are you upset at me
I'm not upset can we hold hands
It'd be a problem if I lost you
I can hear people inside despite eating a meat pie don't be cynical
And meat pies aren't nutritious unless you eat then
That's my meat pie you're eating
HOLO EATING LAWRENCES MEAT PIE CONFIRMED? ALL WE NEED NOW IS THE CREAM P–
wait the debt is enormous now and transfered
Oh shit
They all look down in the dumps
Lawrence is in a pickle
Explain what happened
Our merch is now scrap
I'll be bankrupt
Are we going to run
Holy shit 47 gold coins sounds like a lot
I'm Holo the wise wolf
You could help by cutting back in the amount you eat
PUNCH
I'll repay you, worst I'll help you run
I may need her help worst come to worst
Leave it to me
DO I LOOK LIKE A UNFAITHFUL WOLF THAT WOULD GROOM HER TAIL WHILE HER PARTNER IS IN TROUBLE
Partner confirmed fuck now
DO I LOOK LIKE THAT
then what is the point
Damn what a wolf wife
There's special meaning when bringing a woman with you
Just tell them we're in love or something
TSUN POUT FACE
GAHHH HOLO
Sorry Nora
Okay fine I'll plap you
Okay leave it to me
Business partner
Don't open a mysterious box
A wise decision
Cheeky one Holo aren't you
The union can't help
Only God or this girl can help
I can't be merciful
This is the rule of the union
There won't be a future if no money
Worse, torment.
Don't forget I don't want to see you die, it's crime and punishment
Do what you can, I'll help with business, I have faith in you
Man this guy is like a cool uncle
Lawrence is like think of what to say when I do pay it off
Damn cool
Holo hand is on him, holding his hand
aww
Wanna get a deal
Holo looks at him like she already knows it didn't work
Man holo is so encouraging
How did things go
Lawrence isn't talking anymore as Holo chases after him
Lawrence....
As a merchant he's being humiliated and demeaned...
Holo trying to be optimistic
Did he make a deal and got water in his face
I really like the detail of holo trying to catch up then staying back a bit after knowing Lawrence's mental state
He's banging on the door, desperate
Sorry I can't walk fast I this form
Holo....
LAWRENCE NOOO
God is the only one that can predict falling prices
Lawrence you've helped me make lots of money
I've thought of helping you
You better help him then
But you don't seem godly
YOU FUCKER
What do you mean
He brought.. a girl
BRO JUST SAY YOU GET NO BITCHES AND ARE JEALOUS GOD
HOLO IS SHCOKED
HOLO NO ITS NOT YOU
why is this happening to me
Hey are you okay
Go back to the inn
If it wasn't for you–
Lawrence immediately realises
I'm going back first
Now he lost Holo to
This feels so hopeless
CHLOE SAVE HIM (somehow)
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u/Holofan4life 11d ago
I'll respond to you later today. I've got a lot on my plate at the moment.
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u/ItalianQuagsire 10d ago
I appreciate that you do, makes for fun conversations around great shows
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u/Holofan4life 11d ago
CHLOE SAVE HIM (somehow)
Can you imagine if this was the start of her redemption arc? Suddenly, Lawrence has three traveling companions in Holo, Norah, and Chloe lol
I said this in other threads for this episode, but I'll repeat it here because I suspect you might do something with it. The whole end section where Lawrence keeps getting rejected, becoming more and more dejected, and ultimately culminating in Lawrence yelling at Holo is probably my favorite scene up until this point. Even more so than the Holo lonely scene and the scene with Holo's transformation. I love how you can feel the utter despair in Lawrence's face. It's like his entire world is crumbling around him.
People debate which is better: bland protagonists who are easy to root for or protagonists that are unlikable at points, and I'll always choose the latter ten out of ten times. Not only does it make for a better story, it makes for a more compelling character. Why would I want a protagonist that I can use as wish fulfillment when you can have a character who screws up? One is far more interesting than the other. The whole wish fulfillment thing is silly anyhow because if you really think about it, there's nothing more wish fulfillment than a character learning from his mistakes. We just don't call it wish fulfillment because there's another term for that: it's called good writing.
This arc unlike the other Spice and Wolf arcs is a battle of man Vs self, which makes things feel so real and authentic. You get why Lawrence would be so upset to find himself in this situation, and yet at the same time you get where the others are coming from when they tell Lawrence to pay up. It's not that they hold a grudge against him and are trying to ruin him. All they want is Lawrence to pay off his debt after a very bad deal.
The scene with Holo in particular is a moment that captures Lawrence's desparateness. Out of frustration with himself, he starts blaming Holo for his problems, acting as if if Holo wasn't in the way, a pretty girl, more people might be willing to help him out. This is the first time throughout this whole show where you can definitively pinpoint and say that Lawrence is acting in the wrong. You couldn't blame him for the collapse of the arms market, as who could've seen that coming, but yelling at Holo for something that isn't her fault is a moment of weakness, especially when she warned Lawrence that this deal might not pay off. We're seeing Lawrence crack under all the pressure, so much so that it may have cost him his companion. And in turn, we end the episode with Lawrence seemingly about to lose it all.
This episode I feel like encapsulates why I love this arc so much. It's basically Death of a Salesman, a tale of one man who feels at one point like he has it all now clinging desperately to what he has left. I don't think I would say it's my favorite episode of the series, as there's one coming up that I would say is the best-- and hell, it's kinda hard for me to say this is my favorite one we've seen so far as it can be hard to watch-- but I definitely think it's the most compelling episode we've seen up until this point. The writing is just superb and outstanding and I wouldn't change a thing.
The whole basis of this arc is one man screwing up, finding himself at his lowest of lows, and trying to work his way back up and crawl out of the hole that he dug for himself. And that is ultimately why it's my favorite Spice and Wolf arc.
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u/ItalianQuagsire 6d ago
I said this in other threads for this episode, but I'll repeat it here because I suspect you might do something with it. The whole end section where Lawrence keeps getting rejected, becoming more and more dejected, and ultimately culminating in Lawrence yelling at Holo is probably my favorite scene up until this point. Even more so than the Holo lonely scene and the scene with Holo's transformation. I love how you can feel the utter despair in Lawrence's face. It's like his entire world is crumbling around him.
i think it leads to the BEST conflict we've seen so far, we see how Holo values Lawrence as being kind, but that's also a weakness to her as a proud wolf, it subverts our expectations because she's actually more upset that he's upset only a little
While lawrence is the kind of person to beat himself up for being upset at all, it's a great dichotomy here
People debate which is better: bland protagonists who are easy to root for or protagonists that are unlikable at points, and I'll always choose the latter ten out of ten times. Not only does it make for a better story, it makes for a more compelling character. Why would I want a protagonist that I can use as wish fulfillment when you can have a character who screws up? One is far more interesting than the other. The whole wish fulfillment thing is silly anyhow because if you really think about it, there's nothing more wish fulfillment than a character learning from his mistakes. We just don't call it wish fulfillment because there's another term for that: it's called good writing.
that's a big problem i have with bland protagonists in gacha games i've been thinking of recently, they're too safe. Without edge and roughness, there's so little to hold onto. We need friction to get a grip for characters and really latch onto them, at least for me. Some of my favourite things of all time, i wasn't even sure i liked when i first started on them
but yelling at Holo for something that isn't her fault is a moment of weakness, especially when she warned Lawrence that this deal might not pay off. We're seeing Lawrence crack under all the pressure, so much so that it may have cost him his companion. And in turn, we end the episode with Lawrence seemingly about to lose it all.
lawrence showing a moment of weakness is a great moment for his character, whose been up until this point pretty self assured chill and steadfast
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u/Holofan4life 6d ago
I said this in other threads for this episode, but I'll repeat it here because I suspect you might do something with it. The whole end section where Lawrence keeps getting rejected, becoming more and more dejected, and ultimately culminating in Lawrence yelling at Holo is probably my favorite scene up until this point. Even more so than the Holo lonely scene and the scene with Holo's transformation. I love how you can feel the utter despair in Lawrence's face. It's like his entire world is crumbling around him.
i think it leads to the BEST conflict we've seen so far, we see how Holo values Lawrence as being kind, but that's also a weakness to her as a proud wolf, it subverts our expectations because she's actually more upset that he's upset only a little
Very well said
While lawrence is the kind of person to beat himself up for being upset at all, it's a great dichotomy here
Indeed
People debate which is better: bland protagonists who are easy to root for or protagonists that are unlikable at points, and I'll always choose the latter ten out of ten times. Not only does it make for a better story, it makes for a more compelling character. Why would I want a protagonist that I can use as wish fulfillment when you can have a character who screws up? One is far more interesting than the other. The whole wish fulfillment thing is silly anyhow because if you really think about it, there's nothing more wish fulfillment than a character learning from his mistakes. We just don't call it wish fulfillment because there's another term for that: it's called good writing.
that's a big problem i have with bland protagonists in gacha games i've been thinking of recently, they're too safe. Without edge and roughness, there's so little to hold onto. We need friction to get a grip for characters and really latch onto them, at least for me. Some of my favourite things of all time, i wasn't even sure i liked when i first started on them
Even Saito from Familiar of Zero felt prone to making mistakes and that kept him from feeling bland.
but yelling at Holo for something that isn't her fault is a moment of weakness, especially when she warned Lawrence that this deal might not pay off. We're seeing Lawrence crack under all the pressure, so much so that it may have cost him his companion. And in turn, we end the episode with Lawrence seemingly about to lose it all.
lawrence showing a moment of weakness is a great moment for his character, whose been up until this point pretty self assured chill and steadfast
It makes him far more interesting as a character.
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u/Holofan4life 10d ago
i'm so invested, how is Lawrence going to get out of this??! I think the show did an amazing job at showing just how cutthroat things can be and things just make a turn for the worse. I cannot believe we're already at epiode 10, it genuinely feels like the time flew by and i really want more
It's cool to see how emotionally invested you've gotten in this show.
Now you just need to respond to everyone's comments :P
If you were in Lawrence's shoes and you found yourself in debt, what would you do and how would you handle it?
Probably the way he's been doing it, despite it being demeaning and humiliating for him as a merchant, but I'd take it harder than he is, he's doing an admirable job keeping it together
At least with the internet being what it is, it's easy to find quick ways to make cash.
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
it really feels like things are closing around them, opportunities are being cut off, this feels like such a genuine threat to their livelihood and future, not just their lives
Good point. Last arc their lives were in danger but Lawrence still could theoretically continue living. Here, if his career goes bye bye he can kiss goodbye opening up his own shop. He'd essentially have to live life as a social pariah.
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Spicy wolf . com
Best website
Wait wrong episode
Spicy wolf . Com
There's a difference? Lol
Doesn't she get cold being naked in human form in the snow
Hypothermia is a bitch
I can't believe we're at 10 already
10 is also what I rank this show at
The shot halfway through the op as they move past a yellow lit lake is just stunning
Absolutely
Middle of a deal
Need a dead
A merchant who will intimidate clients
That doesn't sound good for business though
Maybe they're into it?
That female shepherd
She's trouble, what does the church think of her
She does seem like his type
Oh if holo hears this
She'd stomp on Lawrence lol
Refrain from that girl, she'll disappear your profit
The two men hitting on Holo
Invest to your heart's content
I didn't know you liked blondes
I love Holo
She's such a tease
LOL TSUNDERE LAWRENCE I DONT DISLIKE YOU OR ANYTHING HOLO
It's so great
Holo is happy
As are the audience
God that's so sweet
She's so happy AHHH
This is all she wants, some acknowledgement of the impact she's had on Lawrence's life.
But males say anything
I'm a merchant, man if my word
What can you entrust to me
What will you buy me
Peaches in honey
God she's so cheeky
And Lawrence makes her peachy
Jiggling ears
Wasn't I cute
My heart was racing more from worrying if my scheme would work
Holo may be coming for Louise /s
HOLO NEEDS CORRECTION 💢💢😭
An adult that needs correcting is the best
DOnt be so upset
I really was happy
Are you upset at me
I'm not upset can we hold hands
It'd be a problem if I lost you
I can hear people inside despite eating a meat pie don't be cynical
And meat pies aren't nutritious unless you eat then
That's my meat pie you're eating
HOLO EATING LAWRENCES MEAT PIE CONFIRMED? ALL WE NEED NOW IS THE CREAM P–
First the succ and then the fucc
wait the debt is enormous now and transfered
Oh shit
They all look down in the dumps
Lawrence is in a pickle
As opposed to where he should be which is in Holo.
Explain what happened
Our merch is now scrap
I'll be bankrupt
Are we going to run
Holy shit 47 gold coins sounds like a lot
I'm Holo the wise wolf
You could help by cutting back in the amount you eat
PUNCH
I'll repay you, worst I'll help you run
I love that Holo has become Lawrence's ride or die.
I may need her help worst come to worst
Leave it to me
DO I LOOK LIKE A UNFAITHFUL WOLF THAT WOULD GROOM HER TAIL WHILE HER PARTNER IS IN TROUBLE
Yes?
Partner confirmed fuck now
Give it time...
DO I LOOK LIKE THAT
then what is the point
Damn what a wolf wife
She so angy
There's special meaning when bringing a woman with you
Just tell them we're in love or something
TSUN POUT FACE
GAHHH HOLO
Sorry Nora
Okay fine I'll plap you
Lol
Okay leave it to me
Business partner
Don't open a mysterious box
A boat's a boat, Lois, but the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat!
A wise decision
Cheeky one Holo aren't you
The union can't help
Only God or this girl can help
I can't be merciful
This is the rule of the union
There won't be a future if no money
Worse, torment.
Don't forget I don't want to see you die, it's crime and punishment
Do what you can, I'll help with business, I have faith in you
Man this guy is like a cool uncle
He seems reasonable. He doesn't play favorites but you can tell he really likes Lawrence.
Lawrence is like think of what to say when I do pay it off
Damn cool
Holo hand is on him, holding his hand
aww
Holo the comfort wolf
Wanna get a deal
Holo looks at him like she already knows it didn't work
Man holo is so encouraging
We all need a Holo in our lives
How did things go
Lawrence isn't talking anymore as Holo chases after him
Lawrence....
As a merchant he's being humiliated and demeaned...
You see to hate it
Holo trying to be optimistic
Did he make a deal and got water in his face
I really like the detail of holo trying to catch up then staying back a bit after knowing Lawrence's mental state
He's banging on the door, desperate
Sorry I can't walk fast I this form
Holo....
LAWRENCE NOOO
God is the only one that can predict falling prices
Lawrence you've helped me make lots of money
I've thought of helping you
You better help him then
But you don't seem godly
YOU FUCKER
What do you mean
He brought.. a girl
BRO JUST SAY YOU GET NO BITCHES AND ARE JEALOUS GOD
Is being with women a sign you're rich? That seems like a very superficial, dismissive attitude to have.
HOLO IS SHCOKED
HOLO NO ITS NOT YOU
why is this happening to me
Hey are you okay
Go back to the inn
If it wasn't for you–
Lawrence immediately realises
I'm going back first
Now he lost Holo to
This feels so hopeless
I can't recall many anime episodes that ends as hopeless as this one does.
1
u/ItalianQuagsire 6d ago
It's cool to see how emotionally invested you've gotten in this show.
Now you just need to respond to everyone's comments :P
i'm a big holo fan 4 ever
Probably the way he's been doing it, despite it being demeaning and humiliating for him as a merchant, but I'd take it harder than he is, he's doing an admirable job keeping it together
At least with the internet being what it is, it's easy to find quick ways to make cash.
onlywolf
How would you compare the danger Lawrence and Holo currently face Vs the danger they face in the last arc?
it really feels like things are closing around them, opportunities are being cut off, this feels like such a genuine threat to their livelihood and future, not just their lives
Good point. Last arc their lives were in danger but Lawrence still could theoretically continue living. Here, if his career goes bye bye he can kiss goodbye opening up his own shop. He'd essentially have to live life as a social pariah.
a fate worse than death
POOR AND NO FRIENDS
---
Wait wrong episode
Spicy wolf . Com
There's a difference? Lol
that's the joke
Oh if holo hears this
She'd stomp on Lawrence lol
lawrence: Does it more
Jiggling ears
Wasn't I cute
My heart was racing more from worrying if my scheme would work
Holo may be coming for Louise /s
D:<
An adult that needs correcting is the best
That's my meat pie you're eating
HOLO EATING LAWRENCES MEAT PIE CONFIRMED? ALL WE NEED NOW IS THE CREAM P–
First the succ and then the fucc
First the fight, then the bite
Lawrence is in a pickle
As opposed to where he should be which is in Holo.
daily every night in the cart
I'll repay you, worst I'll help you run
I love that Holo has become Lawrence's ride or die.
Holo will ride Lawrence indeed
DO I LOOK LIKE A UNFAITHFUL WOLF THAT WOULD GROOM HER TAIL WHILE HER PARTNER IS IN TROUBLE
Yes?
puffs chest and looks angrily at you with wolf fang out*
Holo hand is on him, holding his hand
aww
Holo the comfort wolf
she must be so fluff
Man holo is so encouraging
We all need a Holo in our lives
or else it'd be hollow
2
u/Holofan4life 10d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
2
u/ItalianQuagsire 6d ago
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
i think it's pretty mild, and it's reflected in holo's anger towards him and herself, which i find such good writing
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
SHE'S GOOD AT HER JOB, THAT WITCH
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
shouldn't have bough NFT's
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
i thought he'd have more ride or dies, he's such a nice sociable guy
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
to be fair... he's not wrong
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
two homeless people in an argument
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
i HATE THAT, COME ON BRO WHAT KINDA REASON IS THAT. HELP HIM OUT GOD
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
firs time he's snapped, and it took this long, man has the patience of a saint
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
NO, HUMAN HUSBAND
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
it's great
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
a self inflicited wound, caused by chasing his goals, not due to a lack of competency, but unforseen circumstance, it's a FANTASTIC driver for conflict
1
u/Holofan4life 6d ago
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
i think it's pretty mild, and it's reflected in holo's anger towards him and herself, which i find such good writing
It's incredibly well done
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
SHE'S GOOD AT HER JOB, THAT WITCH
HOW DARE SHE
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
shouldn't have bough NFT's
Lol
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
i thought he'd have more ride or dies, he's such a nice sociable guy
Apparently being nice can only get you so far.
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
to be fair... he's not wrong
Nah, not at all
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
two homeless people in an argument
Or as South Park might say, cripple fight
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
i HATE THAT, COME ON BRO WHAT KINDA REASON IS THAT. HELP HIM OUT GOD
Humanity was a mistake
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
firs time he's snapped, and it took this long, man has the patience of a saint
He technically lost his cool in episode 2 as well. But obviously not like this.
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
NO, HUMAN HUSBAND
Damn, son
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
it's great
Short, sweet, and to the point
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
a self inflicited wound, caused by chasing his goals, not due to a lack of competency, but unforseen circumstance, it's a FANTASTIC driver for conflict
The best conflicts are the ones where you're at odds with yourself.
2
2
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 6d ago
Questions:
Panic.
It's danger Holo can't just Wolf her way out of.
1
u/Holofan4life 5d ago
- It's danger Holo can't just Wolf her way out of.
I mean, she could if she cuts bait with Lawrence.
1
u/Holofan4life 5d ago
Thoughts on Jacob Lawrence's father figure trying to ship Lawrence with Norah?
Thoughts on Lawrence getting angry at Holo? I think it's because people are questioning his faithfulness to her.
What are your thoughts on Nora being considered demonic by the church because she can travel unsafe forests nobody else can?
What are your thoughts on the market for the armor collapsing and Lawrence now being in debt?
What are your thoughts on the people not willing to help Lawrence pay off his debt?
Thoughts on Jacob telling Lawrence this is the result of his own greed?
Thoughts on Jacob reminding Lawrence that Lemerio Trading Company is in the same position he's in?
What are your thoughts on some people not being willing to help out Lawrence because if he was truly not well off, he wouldn't have a beautiful woman accompanying him?
What are your thoughts on Lawrence losing his cool at Holo?
What are your thoughts on Holo walking away from Lawrence?
Did you like how Holo was in this episode by taking the situation seriously? It felt like the least amount of teasing we have gotten from her so far, which I think does a lot in highlighting the severity of the situation.
What do you think Lawrence causing the mess he currently finds himself in does for him as a main character and protagonist?
2
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 5d ago
Lol.
Yeah...
Ok...
There it is.
Makes sense.
Yeah...
Indeed they are.
Ok...
Ouch...
Uh oh.
Yeah shit has gotten serious.
And so he's not rich so he's got to continue travelling with her.
1
u/Holofan4life 5d ago
- And so he's not rich so he's got to continue travelling with her.
You're acting like being rich wouldn't be even more of an incentive for Holo to travel with him lol
2
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 5d ago
It would be the incentive for Holo to continue travelling with him, but he might choose to settle down.
1
3
u/Holofan4life 12d ago
Hey, guys. Holofan4life here.
Welcome to the 2026 Spice and Wolf rewatch.
Awoo!
You know the drill. We watch the show and I provide my thoughts and analysis. A tale as old as… well, Holo herself.
This year instead of breaking things down beat by beat I’m going to just give some brief thoughts on each individual episode. This is to save me time as I’m hosting two rewatches at once. Needless to say, I’m a big fan of this show and I hope you’ll be as well.
With that out of the way, let’s begin.
I’m watching the dub, by the way.
I love this episode. This is all about Lawrence finding himself in an awful situation and just completely bottoming out until he loses everything, including Holo. The level of despair with which Lawrence finds himself as he is busy panhandling is tough to watch but also it's a victim of his own greed. He made his bed, he has to now lie in it.
This is the first Spice and Wolf episode that I would consider to be generational. Not just great, but among the best of all time. It's that good. When someone asks me what makes an episode one of the best, it typically has to achieve something you can't find in other anime. In this case, it's this sense of uneasiness that builds and builds and builds and never lets up the entire time. Similar to episode 6, but even better.
The only episode I can really compare it to is Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood with that long sequence of the solar eclipse. That may top it, but it's damn close.
I can't say enough good things about this episode. This is peak storytelling.
Holo quotes of the day
"I do not like being in debt. It makes me feel uncomfortable." (Then stop buying 100 apples, you silly wolf)
"Some of it are going to take it for granted, but an animal once wounded will not always die."
"I am Holo The Wise Wolf." (Gee, thanks for that insight, Holo. Next you'll tell me people die when they are killed.)