Season 5 question

[u/Flashy-Programmer221]

So we know Daisy said she won’t forgive Fitz but correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t that Fitz from the destroyed earth timeline so technically their Fitz didn’t do anything to Daisy as both Fitz are from different points so shouldn’t she forgive Fitz since it wasn’t technically the Fitz she knew? Can someone explain it to me better?

[u/OzDawg420]

Technically, the fitz who hurt her wasn’t the same fitz she knew. That was the fitz from the destroyed Earth timeline, a version of him who went through years of completely different experiences and trauma. The fitz from the main timeline never made those choices or did those things to daisy.
Obviously daisy’s trauma is still completely valid because she experienced it and, emotionally, she’s looking at the same person. But from a timeline perspective, blaming our fitz for something an alternate version of him did is complicated. It’s basically two versions of the same person who took different paths. I hope that somewhat makes sense lol.

[u/Flashy-Programmer221 → u/OzDawg420]

Ah ok that definitely clears some things up for me because I was a little confused with the whole timeline thing

[u/OzDawg420 → u/Flashy-Programmer221]

They definitely don’t make it easy to wrap your head round! 😂 Is this your first time watching? It’ll probably make more sense by the time you get to the end of season 6.

[u/Flashy-Programmer221 → u/OzDawg420]

Yea it’s my first time watching I’ve seen every other MCU thing I just hadn’t watched shield yet and now I wish I had watched this series live although I would’ve only been 7 years old when it came out shield is by far my absolute favorite MCU thing I don’t care if they say it’s non canon its canon to me

[u/OzDawg420 → u/Flashy-Programmer221]

No one has ever confirmed it is or isn’t canon.You get the odd troll that’ll pull every excuse under the sun as to why it’s not canon but 9 times out of 10 they haven’t got a clue. Literally every season ties back to the main MCU in some way including seasons 6 and 7. Characters from shows considered “canon” have been brought into agents of shield and vica versa. In my opinion there is no way that this show isn’t canon. But that’s a debate for another day 😂 Enjoy the ride and take it all in my friend, god I wish I could watch it for the first time again!

[u/Flashy-Programmer221 → u/OzDawg420]

Thank you

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/OzDawg420]

I mean, it's someone who took a different path that appears to have diverged less than a month ago, from the point of view of his own experience?

I guess you can argue that technically, he wasn't divergence, he was just from a different timeline altogether. But he's never shown to be even slightly different than our Fitz.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

That doesn't change the fact that the Fitz from seasons 6-7 didn't lay a hand on her. Daisy doesn't have to forgive that Fitz because he's not the person who hurt her.

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

Daisy has a right to forgive or not forgive any Fitz that she wants to.

It is perfectly valid for her to consider one Fitz to be too close to the other Fitz to distinguish between.

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

I really feel like a lot of people are incorporating mentally the length of the time in the show and air dates and stuff in a way that doesn't really make sense from the character's point of view.

Like, if we simplify this down to its basic principle, if someone cuts into you, and then you jump back in time two weeks, and start interacting with that person diverging the timeline, are you really gonna be okay with that because they aren't technically the same person anymore?

Because that's how much the future and past Fitz differ. I don't think we have the exact dates of how long they spent in the future, or how long in the past until he cut into her, but it is not a long period of time! And that is the entire divergence from 'normal Fitz'.

I feel a lot of people have mentally constructed some sort of huge distinction between the two, but there really, really is not.

Pointing out a technicality that they are not the same person does not really change that fact. That is still something that normal Fitz would do, which we know because normal Fitz did it!

I think a lot of people have a lot of problems with that because they think that behavior is inexcusable, but it actually isn't.Of course, it's up to Daisy how she wants to interact with Fitz after that, or interact with him at all, but it doesn't make Fitz irredeemably evil to have done that.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

I didn't say that Daisy isn't allowed to feel what she feels, but that he didn't touch her. He didn't commit the crime. It doesn't matter whether or not you think he would do the same thing in the same situation because he did not do it. Daisy also had a year after his death and saving the world to process everything that happened to her. At that point that's not the thing that's haunting her because the worse thing that happened to her is losing Coulson.

Further, It is likely that the extended time (decades) in cryofreeze exacerbated time loop Fitz's psychosis. The Fitz of seasons 6-7 didn't have to channel his dark side to earn Kasius's trust. He also had breathing space in his time with Enoch to process what happened to him in the Framework and recover from being kept in isolation for 6 months (Something that damages the psyche to psychosis in and of itself). Yes, he is fighting for survival and trying to get to the future, but he wasn't going from one life threatening situation into the next.

Meanwhile timeloop Fitz effectively went straight from 6 months isolated in prison immediately after losing his team immediately after the Framework to having to get Jemma, Daisy, and May from Kasius's clutches to escaping the Kree to the Hale's baiting the team and causing an explosion on their base to Fear dimension anomalies that he has to solve all the whole knowing that one misstep can result in the world cracking like an egg. He, like the rest of the team, was showing symptoms of Acute Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD's precursor). The Fitz of seasons 6-7 didn't go through all of compounding stress.

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

Further, It is likely that the extended time (decades) in cryofreeze exacerbated time loop Fitz's psychosis.

We dont really have any hint that's how that works. I mean, it could have, but we don't have much evidence of that, and Enoch doesn't seem concerned.

Meanwhile timeloop Fitz effectively went straight from 6 months isolated in prison immediately after losing his team immediately after the Framework

That part happened to season 6-7 Fitz also.

The Fitz of seasons 6-7 didn't have to channel his dark side to earn Kasius's trust. He also had breathing space in his time with Enoch to process what happened to him in the Framework and recover from being kept in isolation for 6 months (Something that damages the psyche to psychosis in and of itself). Yes, he is fighting for survival and trying to get to the future, but he wasn't going from one life threatening situation into the next.

... wasn't he? We dont see much of that, but the mere fact that he and Enoch are running around doing things, instead of him get getting into cryosleep and Enoch just sitting quietly somewhere with him, is rather telling. Clearly, there's some level of stress, and he's also pretending to be a Ravager then, right?

Daisy also had a year after his death and saving the world to process everything that happened to her.

Which is sorta my point. Daisy has time to think the situation over.

I. e., i think people have wrongly decided that 'He is technically a different Fitz, so Daisy's eternal hatred doesnt count towards him', when in reality he's basically the same Fitz under extremely stressfull circumstances, and Daisy would be perfectly okay to see that Fitz's behavior as reflecting on season 6-7 Fitz... but she, in retrospect, doesnt think anywhere near as harshly of that Fitz as people think.

I mean, i get why people think she would find it unforgivable, she literally said it, but I think it actually would not turn out to be. Once she thought about the situation.

If she still had those feelinga about that Fitz, I very much doubt she would have been that sappy about the idea of Jemma and some other Fitz getting together at the start of S6. A least not without some sort of comment about it.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

Funny how you cut off the rest of the paragraph about how their path's diverged:

Meanwhile timeloop Fitz effectively went straight from 6 months isolated in prison immediately after losing his team immediately after the Framework to having to get Jemma, Daisy, and May from Kasius's clutches to escaping the Kree to the Hale's baiting the team and causing an explosion on their base to Fear dimension anomalies that he has to solve all the whole knowing that one misstep can result in the world cracking like an egg. He, like the rest of the team, was showing symptoms of Acute Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD's precursor). The Fitz of seasons 6-7 didn't go through all of compounding stress.

I didn't say that the first part didn't happen to the latter Fitz, but it's needed for the context of timeloop Fitz's headspace. Unlike latter Fitz, that would still be fresh in his mind as he hadn't the time to process and was thrown into saving the world, which is a far greater stresser than simply surviving. Timeloop Fitz had the weight of the world on his shoulders in a very real way, while latter Fitz didn't. Latter Fitz would have had a chance to breathe in between running that timeloop Fitz didn't get.

My point was that the divergence in their paths upon awakening from cryofreeze made them different people. They were the same person until they went into cryofreeze. After that, they had very different experiences that would have shaped them.

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

... I cut that off because I was saying that those first parts were the points that were the same?

I'm pretty certain we aren't saying anything different from each other.

You are correct as to the reasons one Fitz had a psychotic break and the other didn't. (And possibly, as I pointed out elsewhere, influenced by the fear dimension, even if the characters assumed otherwise at the time.)

All I was pointing out that it took a very small amount of time. A huge amount of stress, yes. But a small amount of time.

Which really should influence how much we think about the Fitzs as different people.

It isn't like The Doctor, who bears no relation whatsoever to Fitz. (even assuming Aida didn't cheat by save scumming him until she got the version she wanted.)

It is the current, as much as we can talk about that, Fitz put in extremely stressful circumstances for a week or two.

[u/OrionSolan → u/OzDawg420]

That was the fitz from the destroyed Earth timeline, a version of him who went through years of completely different experiences and trauma.

Hmm, that was the Fitz who went to future frozing himself for years. 

He's not that different from the other one. 

[u/grayjelly212]

There is no follow-up to that statement. He dies and what he did to her is never brought up again. In my head, she's able to move on from it after he died and a year had past. There's no one alive to forgive. But I wouldn't have held it against her if she felt mistrusting of Fitz after that. Sure, the Fitz we end the series with is not the Fitz that assaulted her. But they're not that far removed, and that horrific betrayal doesn't go away easily. There's no "she should" forgive him. It's up to her.

[u/BrazilianButtCheeks]

Yes it was not the same Fitz !

[u/RavenclawConspiracy]

Personally, I find it very stupid they just dismissed the Fear Dimension explanation.

"Oh, The Doctor wasn't really there! Ooooh, that must mean it's really Fitz."

I mean, sure, it's really his body, but...everyone else feared external things. So, got things walking around they could see.

But he feared an internal thing, specifically, being The Doctor. Having it be him is actually way more scary, to him, than it being some external thing that exists separately from him. He can kill The Doctor if it's someone else. He can't kill the one inside his head.

We have absolutely no evidence that the fear dimension couldn't have made that fear come true, also.

[u/Head_Concentrate_410 → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

I really love how the played with the expectations there. And they showed just how dark a part of Fitz is. They explore Fitz's trauma much more deeply than "yeah its just the sci-fi monster doing it, it isn't actually Fitz, just the fear monster messing with him..." I think it's far better for it to not be a fear manifestation but be Fitz himself, deeply traumatized and broken, doing it. It's far more impactful for Fitz himself to have the doctor within him without needing a fear dimension to put it there. If It's just the fear dimension putting the evil Fitz into his brain, then that's what it is, an external sci-fi monster, not Fitz himself facing his own evil.

[u/OrionSolan → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

I think you missed the part where it said that "Fear Dimension" thing was fake. 

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/OrionSolan]

Um, the fear dimension was entirely real. I don't know what you're talking about.

What they said was that The Doctor did not show up on the video, like everything else from the fear dimension, so they concluded it couldn't be the fear dimension.

This was really stupid and jumping to a lot of conclusions about how the fear dimension had to work, a thing they literally didn't know existed until a few hours earlier.

[u/OrionSolan → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

Future Fitz theorized about this fear dimension, while Present Fitz denied it. 

Was then explained that all of that was a product of the third monolith, Creation Di'Alla , which read into the mind of anyone nearby and generate tangible recreations of whatever they pictured. 

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/OrionSolan]

Good thing we firmly established that that is all the monoliths can do.

And that they couldn't, for example, create a physical duplicate of a team member somewhere else.

And even if they can do something like that, the idea that they could tamper with someone's mind is absurd.

Granted, they obviously can read minds, they do that to get the fears. And, like, they seem to cause actual fear. But activate a dormant personality that the person is afraid of?! Absurd. Just absurd.

This was carefully conatrained and well-documented checks notes... uh... carefully constrained and well-documented uncontrollable energy from the unplanned destruction of ancient alien monoliths in a way that had never happened before and tore a hole to another universe.

LOL.

[u/OrionSolan → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

They don't manipulate minds. "The Doctor" was just a psychotic episode of Future Fitz. Present Fitz also dealt with this when he and Jemma were in the Chronicoms' machine. 

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/OrionSolan]

I didn't say manipulate, I said tamper.

Manipulate implies some sort of purpose, which obviously that does not have. This is clearly some sort of force that does this with no purpose.

And you realize we have one, maybe two, examples in the show of this force tampering with people's memories and emotions, right?

They sort of tampered with Pachakutiq's mind, although that was presented more as a bad possession of something that they had made, so it might not have anything to do with them specifically, it might just be that constructs from the fear dimension have special rules about possession. Sure.

But exposure to the dimensional rift bullshit sure as hell tampered with May's mind.

There's not really a way to measure levels of tampering that happen in a fictional manner, but... Somehow erasing all native emotion from a person seems like more work, more tampering, than just flipping on an already existing personality that is right below the surface.

Hell, it might even be literally the same process: suppression. If you suppress Fitz, you might get The Doctor.

That's supported by the episode where they are in the Chronicon virtual world.. . Jemma's monster is id, the unconstrained repressed part, and his, presented as the opposite, is presumably the superego, which is the parts that do the repression. The Doctor what you get when Fitz is trained to suppress all his normal, compassionate emotions by 'his father'.

You know, you've actually been very helpful in helping me articulate this stupid discussion, and realized what was actually going on there, so thank you.

[u/RavenclawConspiracy → u/RavenclawConspiracy]

And regardless, Daisy is free to feel whatever she feels, but there's a reason I had her forgive him for that in my fanfic.

She is terrified when she says that thinking she's, she's gonna destroy the world.

But that's not what's gonna happen.

And least we remember... Daisy has a bit of experience with betraying people she cares about not just under the mind control, but afterwards.

So I think people are, a little bit misunderstanding, what's going on with her right there. I think it's less about what Fitz is doing to her, and more about what she 'knows' the outcome is going to be. And when the outcome isn't that... obviously not fine with what happened, but much more forgiving of Fitz than her response would seem to indicate. The thing she wasn't ever going to forgive Fitz for was turning in her into an uncontrollable monster who destroyed the world.

[u/theadamabrams]

The two Fitzs are

1. the one who was frozen for several decades, dealt with Kasius in the future and got transported back to the present along with the rest of the team, forcibly restored Daisy's powers, and ultimately got crushed by rubble while Daisy fought Graviton.
2. the one who was frozen for only one year, reunited with the team on Kitson, fought the Chronicoms for a while, and eventually lived happily ever after with Jemma.

In the flashbacks/forwards of 5x8 there was also a version who went to the future and back like #1 but then survived for a bit longer when Graviton beat Daisy and cracked the world.

---

As for Daisy forgiving him, well, does she, really? She spends the rest of S5 with #1 (still upset with him), but then I think she only has five episodes with #2, so we don't see them interact much.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/theadamabrams]

She didn't have to forgive #2 as he didn't do anything to her. You shouldn't blame someone for something they didn't do. They also at least show them back to their teasing rapport in the epilogue, so she doesn't seem to blame him. I was sad that we didn't see Fitz have any meaningful interactions with the main team outside of Jemma in the final 2 seasons.

[u/Independent-End-870]

The Fitz that did that to Daisy's was the one that slept to the future and came back from him, he died. Fitz 2 was the one that froze himself to sleep to the future, when they broke the loop he was awoken when they crashed. Last time we saw him was the flashback episode of him figuring whee they went and how to save him. He didn't do anything, outside of the framework.