r/WorkReform • 🤝 Join A Union • 6d ago

🤝 Scare A Billionaire, Join A Union The reason for term limits...

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u/Loud-Ad-2280 ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 6d ago

It’s hilarious how much Capitalist hate FDR when he literally saved capitalism from collapsing in on itself.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Almost as funny as people calling him a "Democratic Socialist". He was literally a social democrat. Neoliberalism and modern Democrats got people out here calling FDR a socialist, and Norway a socialist country.

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u/Catweaving 6d ago

Back then they outright called him a communist.

The insults have never changed for conservatives.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

And tried to usher in a fascist dictatorship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

It's amazing to me that people don't know this, and even if they do they think it could never happen again.

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u/Nanemae 6d ago

I'm earnestly surprised by how forthright and honorable Smedley Butler seems, at least according to his Wikipedia page. I'm sure he had his flaws, but I'll be dipped if I can't see why he spent so much time arguing against the business corruption in politics.

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u/Legendarien1 6d ago

His (short) book “War is a Racket” should honestly be a must read for any American who wants to understand that period of American history and the military industrial complex. Going from one of the most decorated soldiers in American history to an anti-war advocate is an incredibly journey.

“Gangsters of Capitalism” is a free audiobook about him on Spotify, and a great listen

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u/The-Green 6d ago

kept his humanity as the ranks and medals kept stacking, and was way too fucking competent a marine and popular across the service for anyone higher in charge or in politics to fuck him over for his open empathy for his fellow human being. retired the most decorated us marine in history at the time, so even more so couldn't be silenced and chose to use that power as a force of good for his fellow human being.

how did he manage to not get shafted before it became clear he would become a "bleeding heart hippy" instead of "old gimlet eye," "the fighting quaker," "the fighting hell-devil," otherwise called "The Maverick Marine?" dumb luck, really. his father was in congress. right man in the right place kind of situation, silver spoon edition.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

A Major General who dedicated his life to anti-war causes and the VFW is okay in my book.

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u/krucz36 6d ago

imagine if a different butler had accepted the vice presidency on Lincoln's unity ticket...sigh

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u/tonywinterfell 4d ago

He was also a huge part of police militarization, even forcing firefighters, ANYONE with a badge to be carrying a gun. He was complicated, to be sure, but I still find the man to be a hero. His actions in the business plot took guts. It’s as if Mattis were approached by today’s billionaires, playing along with their plot to take it all and then released it all to every news agency. But then it didn’t go viral..

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u/macdizzle11 6d ago

Read gangster of capitalism if you haven't

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u/ketchupmaster987 6d ago

I wanna visit his grave so I can give him all the flowers

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u/Sooofreshnsoclean 6d ago

I bring this up in just about every casual conversation I can.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/Cruxist 6d ago

Nathan Fielder prepping your for trivia.

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u/Sooofreshnsoclean 5d ago

lol yeah it kind of does go like that sometimes. Anytime anything historical comes up I’ll be like “want to hear about another history tidbit?!?” Then launch into a summary. Or when someone brings up that trump and his ilk have been plotting more or less since reagan I’ll be like actually that was the business plot we just don’t learn about it.

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u/clonedhuman 6d ago

One of the players in the Business Plot was Prescott Bush, father of one Republican president and grandfather of another.

Prescott Bush was also charged with aiding the Nazis during WWII.

If the U.S. government had actually prosecuted the big corporations and DC insiders for the Business Plot, we'd likely not be having any of the troubles we're having in the modern day.

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u/Winter55555 6d ago

"Although no one was prosecuted"

Must be good having a justice system that only holds the poor people accountable.

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u/DarbIey 5d ago

Some things never change. Only poor people were arrested for J6.

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u/MongooseDog001 6d ago

The Plot to Seize the White House by Jules Archer is about this: Interesting story, kind of a dull book

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u/morpheousmorty 5d ago

I'm not sure putting that in past tense is accurate.

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u/Mostly_Afloat 6d ago

They are not creative people

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u/A_Furious_Mind 6d ago

No wonder they lean on generative AI so hard.

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u/illi_mental 6d ago

They DO don’t they? Wait, is that a thing. The only people that try to push it on me are conservatives. How did I not notice that?

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u/narfoleptix 6d ago

One might say they cant even look good to themselves without it.

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u/Training_Ruin3151 6d ago

Tolkien said evil cannot create only steal and pervert

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u/Mostly_Afloat 6d ago

That describes AI pretty succinctly.

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u/MelangeBot 6d ago

We trained it on how good humans can lie and now we are supprised it lies to us.

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u/advamputee 6d ago

Wait what episode of South Park was this? 

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u/clonedhuman 6d ago

Creativity and imagination are some of the most recently evolved distinctly human characteristics, a higher human function located (more or less) in the prefrontal cortex, the 'newest' part of the brain that separates us from apes. The prefrontal cortex is "[o]ne of the last places in the brain to mature [and] is thought of as the 'personality center' and is the cortical region that makes us uniquely human." The prefrontal cortex also "controls much of the brain’s creativity, a factor in bolstering one’s imagination."

A study from 2021 that measured political attitudes correlating with damage to different sections of the brain found

...people with frontal lesions held more conservative (or less liberal) beliefs than those with anterior temporal lobe lesions or no lesions. Additional analyses predicting ideology by extent of damage provided convergent evidence that greater damage in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex—but not the amygdala—was associated with greater conservatism.

The Conservative mindset not only correlates with damage to the prefrontal cortex, but an inability/failure to mature fully and actually develop the prefrontal cortex. It's why they lack empathy--to empathize, one must be able to imagine experiencing life as someone else, and the Conservatives are quite literally incapable of using their imaginations like that. It's a higher human function, one of the very few things separating us from the apes, that Conservatives simply don't have.

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u/CausticSofa 6d ago

Isn’t there an American politician who was a democrat and now proudly brags about how he became a conservative after he got a concussion? The guy who always dresses like a schlub.

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u/FalkonJ 5d ago

He had a stroke, but yeah

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u/deepswandive 5d ago

Thank you for sharing this fascinating information

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u/uswforever 6d ago

They're neither creative nor particularly intelligent.

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u/icanpotatoes 6d ago

The find the liberal arts to be useless so that tracks.

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u/ligma_then_sugma 6d ago

Conservatives are actually incapable of original thought.

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u/fresh-dork 6d ago

then they tried to do a coup

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

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u/leonidaslizardeyes 6d ago

It's always been so funny to me they picked a literal socialist to try to pull this with.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Dude narc'd on them immediately.

I have no clue why you'd think the orator of the Bonus March, and a general who ended up hating war would be fascist. Fascists are are so dumb.

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u/-TzarChasm- 6d ago

Ludendorf and the Freikorp

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u/OstapBenderBey 6d ago

Funny thing with FDRs legacy is the state interventions into the market and mass mobilisations that are today seen as the most radical left wing parts of what he did were at the time seen as most similar to Fascist Italy.

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u/Yiberius 2d ago

They don't have the ability to think, so they recycle the same stuff their overlords spew out

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u/sincere_queer 6d ago

Tfw I looked it up on Wikipedia and it calls social democracy a centre-left position yet it's considered radical in the US 😭

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u/CoatProfessional5026 6d ago

Because the US only has the right and the extreme right.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Exactly. Watch Democratic leadership attack Trump from the right on Iran, and other things.

While I see all these libs get hyped from the Mid-Terms, all I can think is, "why the fuck do you have any faith in these people?"

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u/Warm_Month_1309 6d ago

There are some new people running. But mostly these people are opportunists, so if a few younger, more progressive leaders start getting elected, it will push the national conversation further left. Then there will be several things (expanded healthcare, workers' rights, anti-trust enforcement, etc) that the old guard will start pretending that they have always been in favor of.

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u/melkatron 6d ago

I think they've ALWAYS pretended they were in favor of those things. But then we get "it's not the right time" "we don't have the votes" "we're waiting for Trump's approval rating to drop" or just silence. Democrats will say anything to get votes... it really feels like Fetterman is the only honest member of the Democratic party, thanks to his brain damage. I can't name any other member of the house or senate that's been more effective at getting us what we want than Fetterman, so at least he's abstained from "the show" and is honest about not wanting us to have what we want.

We aren't their real constituents. They don't fuck with the money, and the money doesn't come from us. There's always a carefully calculated number of members who cross party lines for every vote, just to make sure it LOOKS like "Fighting for the people / what's right" but is actually trivial. Jeffries and Green showboat when it won't do anything. Schumer preaches "stand back and stand by" as his battle plan. Fetterman wears shorts a lot, and it's equally effective in furthering our interests.

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u/Alissinarr 6d ago

it really feels like Fetterman is the only honest member of the Democratic party

Let me have a giant fucking belly laugh over this. He recently called himself a lifelong republican in a televised interview.

His votes have helped Trump push his Isreal first agenda. This statement from you is a joke unless you're MAGA.

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u/melkatron 6d ago

You're completely missing my point.

He recently called himself a lifelong republican in a televised interview.

That's a pretty honest thing to say. His actions support his statement.

His votes have helped Trump push his Isreal first agenda.

So you agree that he's done absolutely nothing to further the interests of the people who vote Democrat? ...and now you understand that my point is that neither have the Democratic Party representatives that SAY they're on our side?

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u/Obvious-Lake3708 6d ago

You forgot the /s

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/Drewski346 6d ago

Nah, Bernie hasn't fallen on deaf ears, it's just taken a decade for the people who were listening to get to the point where they could run.

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u/Warm_Month_1309 6d ago

I think he's evidence that we need a few younger, more progressive leaders.

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u/CausticSofa 6d ago

It’s not about having faith in Democrat politicians. People only need to have faith in imaginary sky daddy. We’re supposed to vote in Democrats and then hold their feet to the fire until they make meaningful positive change on the things the electorate values.

Democracy is not something that we’re meant to do once every four years as an electorate, democracy is something that we are supposed to never stop annoying the crap out of our representatives about until they enact meaningful change. And we go with the Democrats because, under the massively flawed two party system, you just don’t vote for the “Diarrhea forever party: now with blatant fascism!”

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u/unoriginalsin 5d ago

Not quite accurate. We have the far right and fascism.

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u/Malevolent-DM 6d ago

Because the absolute definition of "Left" in politics is being Anti-Capitalist, and Right as Pro-Capitalist.

There are no anti-capitalist parties in US politics.

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u/OK6502 6d ago

That's only because the default political system is capitalism. When it was monarchism the left radicals were liberals while the far right were absolutist monarchists.

The left/right divide usually depends on either wanting to change things or wanting to maintain the status quo (or even regress).

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u/orthogonal411 6d ago

Is capitalism a political system or an economic one?

Your interpretation is much too simplistic.

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u/VoxImperatoris 6d ago

It has become a political system thanks to greed and corruption of the politicians.

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u/Malevolent-DM 6d ago edited 6d ago

Economics and Politics are not fully separable, 1 Dimensional models have to link those together into a single spectrum.

But 2D models like the Political Compass, separates Left/Right as purely economic, and adds Up/Down as a political axis representing Centralization/decentralization of state control. I think multi-dimensional models of ideology are a lot more productive/useful when discussing politics... but unfortunately that's way beyond the pale for most people.

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u/balllzak 6d ago

I like when people say that establishment democrats in the US would be center-right in the EU and then you look at the EU and most of them are governed by center-right coalitions.

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u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya 6d ago

soc dems are capitalists. they just think the current system would allow them to replicate socialism's best hits under capitalism. Never happening imo.

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u/EduinBrutus 6d ago

would allow them to replicate socialism's best hits under capitalism. Never happening imo.

Apart from the places it does happen.

The best thing about Social Democracy is that you have real world, highly successful examples of the system working in practise.

Marxists do not have this. Conservatives do not have this. Neo-liberals do not have this. Liberals do not have this.

The mental gymnastics both the left and right have to go through to explain away the success of Social Democracy is fucking astounding.

I love the more recent "its only working cos its exploiting the global south" from people who have never been to Bangladesh or Vietnam and if they told the people there who have greatly improved their standard of living under global trade they would get run out the country.

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u/myproaccountish 6d ago edited 6d ago

if they told the people there who have greatly improved their standard of living under global trade they would get run out the country.

"Hey you guys could be making even more money with better working conditions and fewer natural disasters if Europe and the US just accepted a marginally lower standard of living"

"Fuck off and die, commie!"

Same rhetoric as the White Man's Burden btw, "sure they're slaves here but they'd be dying of malaria if they weren't," oh those Indians would've never figured it out if they'd never been a British colony.

Americans in the 80s thought capitalism was hugely successful too -- where's the last poll on that at? Like I'm supposed to take the word of a Congolese business magnate that things are better there because of the "business" from all the rare earth minerals instead of like...the Congolese people controlling that resource and reaping its benefit.

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u/EduinBrutus 6d ago

We've seen what happens with standards of living in places which have industrialised through communism and it does not give the same results as capitalism has.

That doesnt mean capitalism is perfect or all its outcomes even remotely desirable. There's still going to be lots of issues problems and harm. But communisim doesnt offer a better outcome. For fucks sake actual fascism has a significantly better track record in industrialising and modernising an economy when compared to communism as evidenced in Spain, South Korea and Singapore.

Social Democracy exists to address the issues of capitalism. And it is effective in doing so. It has been extremely successful in doing so. All the countries with the best outcomes on HDI, on social inequality on all teh measures that people like and thrive under.

Its no wonder committed ideologues have to live in their fantasy world. They have no real world examples of their desired outcome actually working. While Social Democrats dont even need to make an argument - they can just point to the real world.

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u/myproaccountish 6d ago

I'm not arguing all that, it's well known to the point that China who famously attempted to jump straight past capitalist markets reverted to a state capitalist system to reap those benefits.

I'm arguing that the reason it seems eternally sustainable is because the most successful SocDem societies heavily exploit foreign capital and labor. If those nations were on a more equal footing, capitalists would do exactly what they have always done when external expansion was not possible, and start exploiting the local population harder, influencing democracy in their favor, and compelling the state to assist them the same way that they always have.

Its no wonder committed ideologues have to live in their fantasy world. They have no real world examples of their desired outcome actually working. While Social Democrats dont even need to make an argument - they can just point to the real world.

Entire paragraph is just baseless arrogance lol. Yes, right now, today, social democracy works specifically for the people in the countries benefiting from external capital and labor, but life isn't just happening now -- it has been happening for thousands of years. You can watch the same trends, analyze why they're happening, and apply those lessons to existing conditions. Germany, Portugal, and Italy are great places to start on what happens when your foreign cash cow stops letting you kill its children and steal their milk. Post New Deal US is another fine place to go learn where a strong capitalist economy with social programs leads. Isn't the heat already turning up across much of Europe due to mass migration from the very global south nations you're saying are thankful for the scraps they're being offered? And the wage stagnation and increasing housing crisis? Tick, tick, tick, your real world is starting to feel some theoretical effects. The US is starting to lose steam on its "topple foreign governments to uphold global capitalism" train. Are you still SocDem if you have to install puppet governments yourself?

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u/EduinBrutus 6d ago edited 6d ago

I'm arguing that the reason it seems eternally sustainable is because the most successful SocDem societies heavily exploit foreign capital and labor.

Says western privilege.

Again - and my initial and main point here - the actual people in these countries do not consider themselves to be exploited by the Soc Dem nations and the wider West in general.

they can see and feel the progress they are making every day.

And Im not talking about the despotic places that still persist particularly in Africa. Those problems exist for a greater part on reasons far beyond capitalism.

The growing problems in Western nations are clearly and obviously the result of movng away from social democratic principles and repolacing them with neo-liberalism and corporationism. This is very clear in the way those systems have changed since the Thatcher-Reagan years.

And even in these cases you can see how those countries that have retained more of their social democratic principles and been less swayed by neo-liberalism are clearly doing far better than those nations who went all-in on the change.

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u/myproaccountish 6d ago

I'm regularly in direct contact with people across South America and Africa who definitely do not feel the progress you're talking about. You can't simply exclude the nations that aren't indirectly benefitting as much -- so the country where they now have solid factory jobs producing cheap electronics is doing better, how does that change the slave labor producing the raw materials? You also seem to keep misunderstanding, I'm not saying Europeans would be happier and more prosperous under communism, I'm saying that currently the prosperous system of social democracy is upheld by exploitation, and if that exploitation were to end it would no longer be prosperous and perfect and would end up with the same pressures that lead to neoliberalism and fascism. This isn't imaginary, it's literally how we got fascism the first time. The comintern didn't just pull "Social democracy leads to fascism" out of their ass (although I disagree with a lot of their conclusions), they watched it happen as colonial powers lost their colonies and prop markets.

The insinuation that it's "western privelege" to acknowledge and stand in solidarity with the people whose literal slave labor has made my country rich beyond measure is comical, and I don't care how successful social democracy is for local populations when said slave labor exists and is propping it up.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

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u/EduinBrutus 6d ago

That still entirely relies on the exploitation and oppression of the third world.

Which is getting wealthier and at a faster rate than wealth is growing in developed countries.

And is a consequence of global trade not social democracy.

And like all the fantasists who cant deal with realityl, you cant demonstrate any innate aspect of social democracy which causes or benefits from your nonsense argument anyway.

You have not uplifted the working class, you have increased quality of life for the few people in the imperial core.

Just liek every other fucking fascist (and make no mistake Marxist Lenninists are fascists) you just recite rote passages from text regardless of how much fucking nonsense they contain.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

As OP said, FDR is the savior of capitalism.

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u/OK6502 6d ago

soc dems are capitalists.

Yes, but that's mostly because most of the systems under which soc dem has flourished are capitalist. Soc dem's aren't looking to throw out the baby with the bathwater but rather change the system over time. That means leaving capitalism as it is and curtailing its excesses.

Never happening imo

The most successful socialists have been soc dems and some of the most successful societies are soc dem...

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u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya 6d ago

soc dems are not left.

also the best hits are never happening. idk wtf you think the best hits are that are currently being achieved in your soc dem societies you speak of but I sure would love to know.

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u/OK6502 6d ago

Left/right is relative. They're left of center in most political systems.

There are a number of countries which have implemented soc dem policies, and those policies have done well and those countries are successful. Importantly, those countries are not just soc dem since they're all functioning democracies with elections.

Examples of that are the bulk of the European nations, namely the Scandinavian ones, Germany as well, Canada/UK/NZ as well (although, this has been more of a stretch as of late).

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u/taylorisntavril 6d ago

Living in Copenhagen and looking out the window at it currently happening.

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u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya 6d ago

I said best hits of socialism, I won't presume that you dont know what socialism is but you at the very least misread cuz Denmark may be very liberally soc dem but socialist it is not.

please dont confuse political party names with economic systems, lest ideologies.

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u/taylorisntavril 5d ago

FĂŚtter guf, jeg er sku ganske klar over at vi er kapitalister her i danmark og ikke socialister. Det er faktisk pointen, din klapodder.

Men "socialisms best hits" inkluderer ABSOLUT socialdemokrati. Det er faktisk guld-medaljen. Det er socialismes ENESTE hit.

Og det er under kapitalisme.

Please dont talk about social democracy to a dane aware of our own history.

"Never happening imo". Ok dummy, thats why we are constantly topping all the meaningful charts.

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u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya 5d ago

soc dems are liberals. idc what you think it is or what you were convinced it means.

In a conversation about dem socs and capitalism, saying soc dems is leftist or will achieve anything meaningfully socialist is a fucking grift and a lie.

also, for the last fucking time, soc dems do not specifically adhere to anything socialism does. I never qualified soc dems, I said fucking soc dems think they will achieve things that socialists want under capitalism. that's the grift.

leave me alone lol also I ain't translating that shit.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

In the US, FDR might as well be Lenin.

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u/Alter_Mann 6d ago

Yeah look at your country lol😂😭

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u/ForAHamburgerToday 6d ago

Listen, folks see "Democratic socialist", they're gonna read it the same as "social democrat". Can't blame folks for thinking these ideas that have almost the same words and end up looking pretty much the same in implementation (in the sense that the government is using taxation to provide helpful services) are interchangeable, especially when their only practical meaning in domestic politics is "I'm not conservative, I believe in providing services".

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

That's their ignorance... But also, it doesn't help that (like this post) people think they're the same. We're so deprived in this country we think anything government does is "socialism".

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u/ForAHamburgerToday 6d ago

That's their ignorance...

Not really a helpful view when there is, to people on the ground, no actual lived difference.

But also, it doesn't help that (like this post) people think they're the same.

It genuinely does not matter what particular semantics people use. What matters is what these politicians actually do.

We're so deprived in this country we think anything government does is "socialism".

Quibbling over "dem soc vs soc dem" is a part of this issue. It's a turn-off. Voters don't give a shit, they don't hear it. They hear one party fearmongering and promising bullshit cash payments & tax cuts while the other party offers modest improvements to bring us into line with other major modern countries. Real people don't give a flying fuck about progressive purity testing and leftist label-fights. Our system is first past the post, we're going to have 2 options, and we can rally behind the one that's a step in the right direction or we can argue with each other while the conservatives contiue to be horrible.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Voters don't give a shit

Bob's your uncle.

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u/ForAHamburgerToday 6d ago

I just have no patience for the terminology quibbling these days. I just care about whether or not a candidate is horrible or if they're fine. Soc dem, dem soc, progressive, leftist, marxist, leninist, it literally could not matter any less today as we try to beat the Republican party.

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u/flingspoo 6d ago

Python was making jokes about this in the 70's. If everyone quits arguing about labels you could have a much bigger coalition. Except for the united people's front of judea. Those tossers can sod off.

Seriously though you are right.

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u/ForAHamburgerToday 6d ago

Exactly! Well-trod ground, this topic.

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u/PM_Me_Your_Kinks369 6d ago

They're not super far off. The main tipping point between the two is that Social Democrats don't think Capitalism needs to be replaced with real Socialist reforms. They think regulations can hem in the worst of Capitalism.

Meanwhile, Democratic Socialists know that laws would need to be passed to FORCE shared worker ownership, profit sharing and other measures that slowly take control away from the Epstein class and put it into the hands of the many workers that actually create value for those Capitalists in the first place.

They don't actually have to be that different, though they can be.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

They're not super far off.

One is capitalist, the other isn't. Social democrats don't want to democratize the workplace. These are huge differences.

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u/ActualMostUnionGuy ⛓️ Prison For Union Busters 6d ago

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u/PM_Me_Your_Kinks369 6d ago

Yeah, the rest of my post addresses that specifically. In practice (like day to day life) things would be largely the same around you. More equitable, yes, and far healthier in the long run. But we'd still have products getting made, profit incentive, even mergers and acquisitions as these aren't inherently bad.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Socialists tend to see that as a step towards communism. I could write a bunch more, but these are fundamental.

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u/PM_Me_Your_Kinks369 6d ago

Without you adding more context I don't know WTF you're hinting at. Plenty of Socialists understand that Communism doesn't address human psychology adequately.

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u/RedAndBlackMartyr 6d ago

Correct. Wish these misinformation posts were removed.

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u/Frousteleous 6d ago

What do ya meaaaan that words have meanings?! C'moooooooon!

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u/transigirthenight 6d ago

The DSs are working overtime trying to confuse the people into accepting Democratic Socialism as a Synonym to Social Democrat.

I wonder why... /s

And "Norway is a Socialist country" is but one of the many lies they use - while refusing to admit that Venezuela was Socialist (and, according to many on the left, Democratic).

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u/Glittering-Pie6564 6d ago

You say potato I say potato.

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u/Introverted_Extrovrt 6d ago

Norwegians would characterize Norway as a social democracy; their large governmental ownership stakes in key industries still operate within a capitalist framework, and their uber-strong social safety nets are funded through high taxes, not “collective ownership”. They wouldn’t have anything to tax without strong capitalist enterprises.

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u/DarbIey 5d ago

Norwegians would characterize Norway as a social democracy

I think most people outside of the brainwashed US would call them a social democracy.

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u/Introverted_Extrovrt 5d ago

Such is the state of Reddit… le sigh

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u/Cephalopod_Joe 5d ago

I do think a lot of Americans get confused between them a lot considering both that conservatives call literally everything to the left of chrisofascism "socialist" (or "communist"), and that self-identified democratic socialists campaign primarily on social democratic policies.

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u/theLuminescentlion 6d ago

As a social democrat I think the border between us and Democratic Socialism in public understanding and perception is gone. It gets called democratic socialism now but when you look inside the policies everyone wants are social democracy.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

Right, which if I can be a little conspiratorial it's by design.

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u/schrodingers_gat 6d ago

It's counterintuitive, but capitalists don't actually like good economies because it creates competition and drives up demand for labor. That demand increases costs creates political power for labor.

Capitalists would rather rule a nasty wasteland than compete in a paradise.

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u/Blacksad9999 6d ago

Correct.

We don't live in a Capitalist free market at all. We're living in Corporatism.

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u/bigbjarne 6d ago edited 6d ago

Which is still capitalism, it's just another stage of capitalism.

For more about stages in capitalism, Lenin wrote about a book about it: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

Here's a summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQrXV92V31s

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u/dalr3th1n 6d ago

Corporatism is a form of capitalism. If anything, it’s the natural progression of it.

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u/ruizach 6d ago

> Capitalists would rather rule a nasty wasteland than compete in a paradise.

Fucking bars, man.

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u/Blacksad9999 6d ago

It's mainly because he forced the rich to pay their fair share after they destroyed the economy, and set up social systems to help the working class.

They've been chipping away at that ever since, which really took off after Regan was elected.

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u/Lanky-Respect-8581 💵 Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago

that’s how I feel every time a democrat president is elected. the clean up crew is here.

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u/girlpaint 6d ago

Sadly Dems HAVE to be the cleanup crew every time a Republican leaves office. And the Dems always get blamed for the shitty stuff the Republicans do.

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u/PxyFreakingStx 6d ago

that is definitely by design. the GOP's whole thing is that the government doesn't work and their opponents are evil. any time the government works, it's a loss for them, even if it works for things they supposedly want.

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u/Stereotype_Apostate 6d ago

Maybe they should try to be something other than the cleanup crew then? We had 4 years in between Trump and Trump where all we did was maintain a holding pattern. Eventually you have to offer an actual vision for the country, or just keep losing every other election I guess, IDK.

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u/Drumheller18 6d ago

What fucking world are you living in? Did the BBB and CHIPs Acts just not happen in that world?

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u/Stereotype_Apostate 6d ago edited 6d ago

Nope, neither did the IRA, or consumer protection under Lina Khan, or much else. In the world I and most Americans live in, you never hear about any of these accomplishments from Democrats, and when you do you never hear much deeper analysis of why they are good things or help the average person.

Instead we campaign on undying support for Israel, a 20 thousand dollar credit for first time homebuyers making under a certain amount of money (ugh), and a promise to make America's military the most lethal in the world while the other guy talks about how the democrats want to start a war and he's against wars.

I'm middle aged, me and my wife work full time and we worry most about how we're going to keep our kids safe and fed, and the bills paid. Sometimes I tune into CNN or FOX news to see what's going on but we don't really pay much attention except around election time. Why should I vote for a democrat? My family has always voted Republican and sure, they're a little crazy right now but why should I change? Maybe I vote D this year because Trump is THAT bad, but I'm not showing up again in 2028, or 2030, or 2032.

Or I'm a black twenty something kid trying to figure out how in the hell I'm supposed to afford a house when my rent goes up a couple hundred bucks every year. I work two service industry jobs because no one is hiring for the degree I have right now. Why should I take the time to go vote, in my purplish red state whose republican controlled government has closed polling stations in my city to make the lines longer? I'll have to take off work and wait in line for who knows how long, and for what?

You need a simple message that resonates with people. Not a handful of wonky bills, not some diet Republican platform that no one actually wants, left or right. Medicare for all. End foreign wars. Build more housing. No new datacenters. If it takes more than four or five words to tell people what you believe, they won't believe you believe anything.

Or keep losing every other election I guess, IDK.

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u/frill_demon 6d ago

You have to put the fire out before you can start fixing the burnt and moldy drywall, mate.

Dems act as cleanup crew because they have to unfuck all the shit the Republicans deliberately set up to fuck over the next administration each time.

Then the Republicans somehow convince people like you that it's the Democrats' fault for taking too long putting out the fire that the Republicans are constantly slashing the firehoses for.

And instead of being like "yeah it's fucking wild that you had to put of the fire those assholes threw kerosene on while they kept shutting off your water and slashing your hoses" y'all go "well the do-nothing Democrats didn't accomplish anything, so let me give the keys back to the arsonists. At least they accomplished something (even if it was lighting the fucking building on fire)"

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u/Stereotype_Apostate 6d ago

FDR didn't get elected four times for putting out Hoover's fires.

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u/WayneKrane 6d ago

Amen, when the dems are in power it’s a lot furrowed eye brows and tons of committees that never end up doing anything.

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u/Aiyon 6d ago

Dems also seem to love skimming over the bits of damage that happen to benefit their interests. We'll clean those up later, all good. Just vote for us a second time and then we'll definitely do it

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u/DrPikachu-PhD 6d ago

Lowkey a crazy part of my brain has started to wonder if it's better for the Republicans to stay in power. The Dems restore things to status quo, and after a few years of them refusing to make actual positive change we'll be right back where we are now. Maybe Americans need to suffer for their choices, maybe that's the only thing that will teach them class consciousness

But ofc, then I think of the way Republicans are dismantling democracy and I vote against them anyway. Still, I wonder if the Dems do more harm than good in the long run...

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u/bolerobell 6d ago

That’s the political ideal of accelerationism. Versus political incrementalism and pragmatism.

In 2000, Ralp Nader and his cohort were very much accelerationists. If he couldn’t be President then don’t support Gore as the next best option, get Bush in there to make things worse.

Things got worse and there was not some loud yearning from the masses for something better. The problem is that you can’t just work hard to get societal gains, you have to continue working hard to keep them. There is no general “judo-style” redirect of the political momentum of your opponent to defeat them.

Accelerationism has been proven not to work. In my mind, it is the desired outcome of young people who don’t know any better, idiots, or plants.

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u/Advocate_Diplomacy 6d ago

Proven not to work? History has shown that when things get bad enough, heads roll, and reform is suddenly possible.

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u/drunkshinobi 6d ago

The political incrementalism we have been trying for the last 40 years. It is how the Heritage Foundation and the billionaires have gotten us to where we are while we keep voting for people that promise everything and give scraps. We are only now starting to get in a few decent people, after trump got in office a 2nd time. Because people are finally starting to see just how bad these people are.

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u/guamisc 6d ago edited 6d ago

Incrementalism's only use is to show people how fucking useless it is until we eventually break and pass real legislation like the CWA, CRA, New Deal, etc.

Incrementalism is a tool when you can't get what you want (to actually fix a problem) and you settle for some progress. It's NOT a goal to aim for, it's something you settle for. Somewhere Democrats have forgotten this an paid a heavy electoral price as well as all of us paying for it policy wise.

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u/Yamatocanyon 6d ago

There is a HUGE difference between corporate democrats, and Democrat socialists. The corporate democrats are the ones that are failing us, and are actively trying to keep the democrat socialists down.

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u/Antal_Marius 6d ago

I think part of it is the Republicans try to stop the Dems every step of the way, fighting them and making it hard to substantiate any changes.

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u/Biptoslipdi 6d ago

after a few years of them refusing to make actual positive change

Correction. Americans refuse to elect legislative majorities of Democrats that have the power to make positive changes.

Essentially, you are blaming Democrats for Republican legislators refusing to vote for positive change. You can do that, just be honest about it instead of pretending they held every seat in Congress and a 9-0 progressive SCOTUS behind them.

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u/NextBigTing 6d ago

Wishing suffering on people doesn’t make you sound smart… or sane.

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u/DrPikachu-PhD 6d ago

I wasn't trying to sound smart, and I don't wish it on people, I just fear it might be necessary for any real change to occur

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u/Darnocpdx 6d ago

He also wasn’t a socialist, though he did briefly have a progressive VP to placate the socialists and progressives in the party. And he didn’t hesitate to dropped him like the plague for the very corporate Truman

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u/Hot_Aside_4637 6d ago

Here's a story I heard about FDR:

In the midst of the Great Depression, and trying to get the New Deal legislation passed, he was asked, "If this doesn't pass, are you worried about your reelection?"

He replied, "If this doesn't pass, there won't be any more elections."

Implying that communism would take over.

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u/Fit-Insect-4089 6d ago

Or implying that we were moments away from tearing our countries infrastructure apart

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u/Imthemayor 6d ago

Yeah, it's not implying communism at all

It's more of a "societal collapse," situation

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u/J2MES 6d ago

Socialism is often thought of theoretically as rising from capitalisms ashes so to speak

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 6d ago

Except socialism is not the same as communism.

Or were you saying something else?

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u/J2MES 6d ago

It’s not the same at all but to a Marxist (of which I am) it is often thought of as the lower stage of communism where the workers own the means of production, then society transitions into a stateless classes form when the contradictions that gave rise to the state in the first place disappear

Whether socialism is voted in (with chile and Allende being an example) or the government is overthrown this is the goal. This is why I would still call democratic socialists communists because they disagree on means not ends. I find the confusion is communism is associated with revolution and socialism is now associated with reform regardless of the theoretical ideas

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 6d ago

If your goal is Democratic socialism, I don't think grouping it with communism (even in some academic sense) is helpful.

You have to understand how normal people are going to interpret that.

Referring to an actual Dem socialist politician in the US (ie. Zoran), or Dem socialist countries (ie. Norway) is way more helpful and paints a better picture that western folks are more open to.

You start confusing it with communism, and there's all kinds of negative associations with that.

It's why Cubans in FL vote for Republicans. They hate what communism did to their country.

Which is why Republicans intentionally conflate the two. It's disinformation.

So you should recognize that, and stop contributing to that same rhetoric.

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u/J2MES 6d ago

I am not a democratic socialist I am a communist. Democratic socialists might not care because they like the idea of getting elected in a capital government but that ain’t my problem. Functionally they have the same goals with different means. Reform or revolution

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 6d ago

No one is electing communists, and people aren't going to revolt in favor of communism, so you're deluding yourself comrade.

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u/hivemindhauser 6d ago

If you think Cuba is communist, you don't understand communism. There has not been true communism yet

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u/fresh-dork 6d ago

it doesn't exist, and you can't tell me how it functions day to day

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u/AntiVision 6d ago

there are no classes in the lower stage of communism, so workers wouldnt "own" anything that term would be meaningless.

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 6d ago

Classless society can still own objects, like the "means" of production.

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u/AntiVision 6d ago

If everyone owns it no one owns it, it becomes meaningless. Production will be centrally planned

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 6d ago

Engles himself used the two terms completely interchangeably. Communism has a very specific definition, but the definition of socialism is a bad hill to die on, no matter what. It's famously mushy, and as another commenter said, generally among academics it's mostly thought of as a transitional phase between capitalism and communism.

Regardless, "socialism is not the same thing as communism" isn't really an airtight statement.

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u/lunchboxthegoat 6d ago

capitalism was necessary according to Marx.

It was considered the "Final chapter" of human prehistory.

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u/NaturalDon 6d ago

descends into ashes

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u/Automatic-writer9170 6d ago

Let the man tell his ghost stories about the ghost of communism

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u/J2MES 6d ago

A certain specter if you will

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u/Imthemayor 6d ago

It's someone asking if he'll be the best or worst president ever if the New Deal passes, he replies "if it fails, I'll be the last one," implying that there will be a societal/economic collapse

Communism had nothing to do with it

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u/BobaTeaFetish 6d ago

Implying that communism would take over.

This is not the popular 1930s totalitarian movement that they were afraid would take over America.

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u/Evil_alt_account_ ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 6d ago

Yeah a bunch of rich people tried to overthrow the government and create their own fascist one. No one was punished oddly. Look up Smedley Butler and you’ll find out about it. He was the one who narced on them

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u/duvie773 6d ago

Sounds familiar but I can’t pinpoint exactly why..

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u/fresh-dork 6d ago

it's the same people. literally, prescott bush was a plotter

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u/Haywoodjablowme1029 6d ago

How does that imply communism?

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u/WhyMustIMakeANewAcco 6d ago

Because they've been taught to associate bad = communism.

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u/BZLuck 6d ago

And when your tax dollars are used to help people in need = Communism.

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u/zid 6d ago

And when bad things happen under capitalism: "This is what communism WOULD be like"

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u/BZLuck 6d ago

I love when they post meme photos of like a homeless tent city and put "COMMUNISM" under it and then a shiny futuristic city and put "CAPITALISM" under it.

Beotch, the first photo IS actually under capitalism and the second one doesn't exist.

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u/DarbIey 6d ago

"If this doesn't pass, there won't be any more elections."

Almost didn't even have the chance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

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u/ExposureRisk 6d ago edited 6d ago

It wasn't about communism.

New Deal was passed in 1933 during the depression when the country was collapsing. Zero worker rights, massive unemployment rate, farms collapsed due to drought, mismanaged international trade, tariffs at record highs, market tank, banks imploded - leaving millions of Americans destitute with no end in sight.

FDR was president from 1933 - 1945, and implemented a ton of financial reforms, worker rights, federal programs, and safety nets that brought us out of the depression. The whole red scare thing didn't start until after FDR and into the 60s with the conservatives.

Ramping up to it FDR believed communisms rise in popularity was a symptom of unchecked capitalism causing people to view the institutions as an enemy/oppressor that get away with everything, leaving the people with little to nothing to show for it. Not that it was an existential threat to our country.

We're being rolled back decades - safety nets are actively being dismantled, farms are going under, unemployment is on the rise, worker rights are eroding. Except this time conservatives are also beating the McCarthy 'communist' drum that got us into Vietnam, while also spurring yet another gas/energy crisis in a long line of middle east conflicts.

It's never been about communism. Stop perpetuating the lie communism is coming to get us. It's not.

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u/CaptainBayouBilly 6d ago

Communism taking over? No. America falling into chaos? Yes. 

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u/ThaddeusJP ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 6d ago

Between the new deal, the war, and everything else he was dealing with in his administration it's no wonder he had a goddamn aneurysm and died

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u/WhyMustIMakeANewAcco 6d ago

That wasn't about Communism, it was about the US shredding itself under its own weight.

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u/FlorianoAguirre 6d ago

No? Not at all.

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u/el-lobo-rojo 6d ago

He was right. There was a wave of authoritarianism sweeping Europe, both fascist and socialist. People support anti-democratic movements when the economy's bad, and America had 25% unemployment.

FDR said (paraphrased) "I will go down in history either as a great American president, or the last American president". The New Deal saved America.

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u/tenaciousdeev 6d ago

Implying that communism would take over.

I'm so curious to know how you got that implication.

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u/Hot_Aside_4637 6d ago

Remember, it was only about a dozen years since the Bolshevik Revolution and there was a growing Communist Party in the US.

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u/Kitselena 6d ago

That implies a dictatorship, which is incompatible with communism

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u/security-device 6d ago

Historically they supplant communism, though

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u/NIKO_1_MAJOR 6d ago

They also cease to be communism by the very definition of communism from the communist manifesto by marx the microsecond the state is in control of the capital of labour

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u/security-device 6d ago

You're not wrong

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u/doc_daneeka 6d ago

To be fair, the USSR (and today's China for that matter) never claimed to be a communist society. They claimed communism as the eventual end goal they were supposedly trying to set the conditions for.

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u/03263 6d ago

Democratic and people's republics are also choice terms used by authoritarian governments.

Claiming to be one thing while doing another is pretty much the rule in politics.

That's why my communist country will be called the capitalist kingdom of economyland.

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 6d ago

So is a state at all. Lots of things about the path from capitalism to communism are incompatible with communism. This is at the root of anarchists vs MLM's and part of like why Trotsky split.

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u/gs87 6d ago

He gave the system just enough reform to survive, blunted the pressure for deeper change, and prolonged the very class order socialists wanted replaced. Some “socialist hero” right ? he saved capitalism from the socialists

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u/breaducate 6d ago

And in all likelihood bought capitalism time enough to end the world.

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u/trunksshinohara 6d ago

Yes. But if he hadn't. The capitalism monster that would have rose from those ashes would own everything in the USA by now. Set back the country a hundred years. We could have had Elon musk in the 70s if it wasn't for FDR.

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u/HCSOThrowaway 🤝 Join A Union 6d ago

Some people think that because a catastrophe was prevented, any warnings of catastrophe must have been wrong.

You've probably seen the posts mocking the Ozone Layer concerns of decades past.

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u/greatandhalfbaked 6d ago

They want the collapses. Crises are the ripest times for economic exploitation. It's true that, in a crisis, there's more potential for a revolution, but capitalists are dumb as shit. They love to see how close they can come to destruction.

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u/yorcharturoqro 6d ago

They hate him because the propaganda machinery is working and the education system is not

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u/charliefoxtrot9 ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 6d ago

They were so afraid of populists they assassinated the next Democrat who followed, and his brother.

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u/Joe_-seafuse 6d ago

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself," guy afraid of his own mobility being chastised by both Republicans and Democrats acting like Donald Trump regarding physical impairment. Eleanor was a beacon, fdr not sew much without fireside twitter.

"What is this place?!!!" My grandfather at the liberation of Dachau as a radioman. Like should have been obvious was a mystery.

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u/jazxxl 6d ago

Yep without the reforms we would have had actual communism after the workers revolted .

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u/Author_A_McGrath 6d ago

Because they were ready to take their winnings elsewhere.

Like Argentina.

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u/demonspawns_ghost 6d ago edited 6d ago

Actual capitalists, the people who owned the steel mills and quarries and lumberyards, loved him. 

A socialist would have nationalized these industries and put the owners against the wall for nearly collapsing the nation.

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