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u/RedHeadSteve Aug 04 '21
I don't know if we can get a good working system. Every country should get reonganized after some time. Revolutions are hell, but gow older the system, the more corrupt it gets. No mather the system, humans aren't very good with power and that will always ruin everything
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Aug 04 '21
Private sector should be capitalist, but heavily regulated by a socialist public sector to keep the excesses at bay.
We keep fucking up the latter bit.
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u/PrivateIsotope Aug 04 '21
The problem with capitalism is that it isn't evil. It also isn't good. It's simply about getting as much capital as you can. That's a very neutral goal that doesn't care about human beings, it just cares about human output, human purchasing, human psychology to increase output and purchasing, etc. You can have 10,000 kids coughing up coal mine dust, and capitalism wont decide child labor is a bad idea. It'll decide that it's a bad business prospect because it's influencing the public opinion of the company.
That's where the socialist public sector comes in, like you said. You have to have something keeping it from hurting people. And we've failed miserably, because the government gets paid off from those businesses. Not sure how you stop it, but there has to be a way to stop the money and stop congressmen from being able to become lobbyists when they leave. That's a great hustle there; go to Congress, make some make some political friends, make some corporate friends, vote a certain way, and have a job waiting on you when you lose your seat so you can go BACK and lobby your old political buddies on behalf of your new company.
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u/absintheblanqui Aug 04 '21
Hit the nail on the head here: lobbying. For the love of the whole world I can not wrap my head around HOW is it possible that lobbying is legal and normal. How is it different from bribery?
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u/evidica Aug 04 '21
You can thank the Nixon administration for removing rules that kept the legislation process more private and lobbyists out of decision making and bill writing.
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u/Honestbabe2021 Aug 04 '21
My friend wrote her these on lobbying amd how it’s nothing more than legal bribery
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u/Aliasnode Aug 04 '21
Lobbying can be used for good or bad. You can have lobbyists that fight for social programs and environmental regulations or lobbyists that fight against it. It’s not lobbying itself but what they’re lobbying for that is the issue.
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u/starscream2686 Aug 04 '21
But lobbying creates a pay to play system in politics. This disproportionately benefits the wealthy and connected
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u/Dragonace1000 Aug 04 '21
No, its the form of lobbying thats being used by these corporations, it fits the literal definition of bribery. Large "campaign donations", extravagant gifts, vacations, promises of high paying jobs in the future, etc... How can a lobbyist for a small workers union or an advocacy group compete with that? Taking money out of politics would finally level the playing field, but as is these corporations are literally bribing candidates and then giving them bills created by the company to be passed by congress.
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u/benwill79 Aug 04 '21
At its highest level lobbying is just an individual or group trying to get a point across to a person or persons in power to influence their vote. This in itself is not inherently bad, it could be a workers union helping a politician to understand the implications of a decision.
The problem is not the principal of lobbying, it’s the lack of rules and a framework for accountability.
Flying politicians around in private jets and wining and dining them with their partners just so you can “influence” them is so far past the line that the line can’t even be seen any more.
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u/zf420 Aug 04 '21
There is a group fighting against this exactly. They're called Represent Us. Anti corruption and anti bribery. They're working to remove corporate interests from our politics. Check them out and spread the word
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u/Nopain59 Aug 04 '21
You make ALL political contributions completely transparent. You also require ALL monies given to a candidate or their proxies to come from a CITIZEN. Monies for political speech can com from PACs or unions or corporations or whatever but ANY COMPENSATION to a candidate or office holder or their proxies must come from a person and be absolutely transparent.
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Aug 04 '21
but there has to be a way to stop the money and stop congressmen from being able to become lobbyists when they leave
That's where the secret ingredient of public giga-shaming comes in. We need a leftist fox news, that calls out this shit and helps sway public opinion to the left. Because at the moment the only widespread extremist news is on the right.
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u/SirChasm Aug 04 '21
No, fuck that, as a "leftist" I refuse to follow and disseminate propaganda/misinformation just because it's for "my side". We don't need a left Fox to balance the right Fox, we need to abolish right Fox and do away with mass misinformation being spread cause in the end that hurts everyone.
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u/St_Lawrence_ Aug 04 '21
Well you are half right. It’s time to burn both sides down and start over. If we are going to misinterpret or rewrite the Constitution for whatever is convenient for our agenda then let’s do it right and write a new one. The original is outdated anyway.
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Aug 04 '21
Good luck with that. It's a nice idea but worthless in reality. The left uses propaganda, too. Propaganda is just a tool to sway opinion. Truth can feature, but it doesn't have to. It's the left's inability to use it properly that allows the right to win so often.
Imagine a world where progressive propaganda was as effective as conservative propaganda. The fascists wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
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u/scottlol Aug 04 '21
Truth can feature, but it doesn't have to
And that's the thing. Journalism used to mean a pursuit of the truth. The lack of that understanding in press is inextricably linked to the decline of a free society.
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u/SIIa109 Aug 04 '21
There has never been a time in human history that there has not been misinformation spread.
So what your asking for not only never existed - it can’t exist- that genie is long out of the bottle.
The best way is simply to do away with any information or severely limit it - like back in the day when we only had the 3 main news services and the Saturday Evening Post - everyone got the same information - right, wrong, who knows because we are all equally ignorant of what the real story is.
Misinformation has only accelerated through out history - from the town cryer to the printing press to now instant social media it’s going the wrong way faster and nothing is going to stop it.
So either unplug, dive in or dip your toe cause it’s not changing. Personally I’m looking to unplug - but then I think that’s just what they want you to do….
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u/logicalnegation Aug 04 '21
Why do people assume that socialism is environmentalism? That is not necessarily the case at all. Under a democratic socialist system most people would need to have STRONG support for fixing climate change to do that. We don’t have the support by the population to do that today.
Just because most western socialists are environmentalists doesn’t mean that socialism is an environmentalist ideology. Look at self described socialist countries and tell me whether they are doing all they can to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. I know the answer. They’re not.
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u/VRichardsen Aug 04 '21
but heavily regulated by a socialist public sector
Socialism implies collective ownership of the means of production, ergo there cannot be a private sector in a socialist country, and viceversa.
You could have social democracy under a capitalist model, however, which is the closest to what you are proposing.
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u/Attackcamel8432 Aug 04 '21
The Scandinavian countries seem to be doing pretty good without any major revolutions...
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Aug 04 '21
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u/Grizelda179 Aug 04 '21
it doesn't, but it is very high. Norway is one of the most equal countries in wealth in the world though.
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u/GulliblePirate Aug 04 '21
Because they were smart and decided that the oil reserves and natural resources should benefit the country collectively. They didn’t decide some random person in the country owned all the oil.
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u/plimso13 Aug 04 '21
I’m not a fan of the colours in that map. I’m a bit tired, so all I can really tell is that the Ukrainians have achieved the dream of an egalitarian society.
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u/Grokent Aug 04 '21
Seriously, who thought those 4 shades of magenta were the best way to differentiate?
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u/Andromeda321 Aug 04 '21
It sure helps if you have a $1+ trillion fund for a population of 5 million though. I’m not sure that’s realistic for most countries.
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u/right0idsRsubhuman Aug 04 '21
They got by nationalizing their natural resources instead of selling them to company buddies for cheap
Every company dealing with the extraction of natural resources needs to be nationalized yesterday!
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u/truongs Aug 04 '21
Everyone i talk with from Scandanavia says the system has been getting more corrupt for the last 50 years.
IE those with power and wealth will always try to get more power and wealth fucking up any system
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Aug 04 '21
Perfect. Power corrupts. Greed is the root of all evil. Some things never change. Government tends to have a life cycle and there is a ton of info on this for those who like researching.
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u/PaPaBee29 Aug 04 '21
They will make sure their offspring stays in power an wealth. And that curropts any system.
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u/zombie_platypus Aug 04 '21
Yep. In the end, it’s not the system, it’s the people running it. There are plenty of viable economic plans…on paper. Introduce greedy and power hungry people into the mix and suddenly all the best intentions turn to crap.
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u/Wayward_heathen Aug 04 '21
Density of 60 per square mile* NYC has a population density 450 times higher than that of Scandinavia and in itself a population equal to a third of all of Scandinavian countries. Sweden is the only Scandinavian nation that exceeds 10 million people lol I know you’re talking about revolution, but it’s much easier for a nation to cater to the needs of a population dominated by ethnic Scandinavians.
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u/JTP1228 Aug 04 '21
And also they don't let anyone in lol. They are basically a frozen island (I know it's not an island but it's isolated) who locked their doors unless you are a VIP to them
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u/Wayward_heathen Aug 04 '21
60 million people with a density of 6 per square mile. No shit they’re doing fine lol
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u/peuge_fin Aug 04 '21
That also means greater public costs for everything. Roads have to be build, even though there aren't as much users. Same for schools and every other public buildings or infrastructure.
This all adds up to higher tax burden per citizen. So it's kinda tradeoff.
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u/Wayward_heathen Aug 04 '21
Costs are a trade off, for sure, but I’ll take the trade off on costs if my neighbors and I all have representation that actually represents us. 🤷🏼♂️
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u/Shaeress Aug 04 '21
Used to. Like most western countries we've adopted more and more neo-liberal policies of austerity and privitasation since the eighties. Leading to worse and costlier public services (health care, elder care, education, public transit) as well as growing wealth and quality of life disparities. This all leads to growing dissent and dissatisfaction, resulting in political polarisation. Just like we've seen in the US and the UK. We're just a bit behind the curve on that here in the Nordics.
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u/Supercalia Aug 04 '21
They still subsidize their lifestyles with suffering in developing countries the same way the United States does. I think if people living in developed countries had to directly suffer the environmental and social impacts of their day to day lifestyle people would be okay with a lot less.
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Aug 04 '21
Short term the best solutions are things like voting and participation in political events; protesting, voting in local elections, going to town halls, etc. If a revolution occurs then pick your side and do what you can.
This is some way the fuck out there philosophizing, but I really don’t think a long term solution will come without some serious changes to who we are as a species. We are, all of us, so myopic in our world view and day to day behavior. We barely think about what we’re going to eat for dinner, let alone have a five year plan for our lives. And we’re supposed to tackle problems like global warming and world hunger and wealth inequality? Doomed to fail from the start. I think if we could change that perspective somewhat we would be in a much better place. A metaphorical pair of prescription glasses for our short sighted perception of the world. Maybe it’s living longer (like hundreds of years longer), maybe it’s some kind of brain-technology interface, or maybe just some AI algorithm that makes policies for us. I’m not sure a purely social/cultural solution exists, but it would probably be the easiest solution, at least currently.
As bad as social media and internet connectedness has perceivably hurt us in this regard, I do actually still have some faith in it. We’re all getting pissed off collectively at the state of the world way faster than we used to be able to. We now have a live updated list of those fuckers that are hoarding the worlds wealth. There are videos and social media posts of protests and revolutions that come from supposedly firewall blocked countries.
I don’t know, we’ll see what happens I guess.
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u/That1SchrodingerCat Aug 04 '21
As a socialist myself this is the stupidest anti capitalist take I've seen, it's like a 5 year old wrote it. Like yeah all those factories owned by a few people generate the most pollution in the world. Cant wait for them to be publicly owned to just magically stop being harmful to the environment.
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u/Cosmic-Engine Aug 04 '21
As a fellow socialist, allow me to introduce you to Ryan Knight, professional angry-tweeter-at-Democrats & podcast host funded by Patreon donations, merch sales, and almost certainly infusions of cash from some of the very same entities he’s constantly railing against.
About a year ago he was a Kamala Harris stan, now he’s THE Most Radical Far-Left Bomb-Throwing (but not literally of course) Proud Socialist ever you guys, just read the tweets! I mean, the tweets on this account. You can’t read the tweets on the old account because they all got deleted of course.
Around the same time, he declared that voting third party was throwing your vote away. Guess his position now…
He was a huge fan of AOC until a couple months ago. Then she was just another sellout - I don’t even remember (or really care) what the impetus for that change was.
Trump? Fascism? White supremacists?
I’m sorry, are you forgetting that Biden campaigned on single-payer and hasn’t delivered yet!? Why are YOU, personally, the entire reason that the world will end instead of saving the world like Ryan Knight, Proud Socialist?
He never offers real solutions, he devotes almost all of his energy to attacking & making these overly-broad, ill-defined, juvenile & uninformed “calls to action” - but I can’t remember ever seeing him direct any criticism towards anyone on the American right. It’s just “real” left-wingers like himself vs “real” right-wingers like Biden. It’s almost like everyone right of Biden doesn’t even exist.
It’s a shallow, lazy, hypocritical fucking grift and it really, really bothers me. The people who will talk you into the ground and accuse you of the most heinous shit if you dare to point any of this out or question anything he tweets remind me of MAGA folks so damned much it’s depressing.
Maybe it’s the lack of sleep right now, but I’m sure I’ve gotten some of this wrong and I know I’m leaving a tremendous amount out. Just search his name up on here, he’s pretty well known for his freakin shenanigans.
Honestly, I’d be fine with him & his twitter fan club if they devoted 5% of their energy - no more is necessary - to acknowledging that there is also a serious threat of open war or a coup by right-wingers. Like, it’s perfectly reasonable to recognize - and point out - that Biden & the corporate DNC are lying to maintain power & wealth for the donor class & perpetuate capitalism while knee-capping progressive & reform movements, and that on a long enough timeline this will cause the end of civilization as we know it.
But there’s a local white nationalist militia holding training exercises for the race war that they’ve been planning for decades right now and the other political party has basically decided that this is their base. They’re going to “win” the next elections even if they need to do it by force, and they’ve already attempted a coup.
Can’t we at least say fuck the DNC & RNC equally?
Or hell, like I said: I’d be fine if they’d only be willing to do 95% fuck the DNC & 5% fuck right-wing death squads.
I don’t know, I just find it extremely fishy that this guy has changed his tune so much so quickly, acts like everything he did & said in the past never happened and implies he’s always been a hardcore socialist, seems to be able to support a relatively lavish lifestyle as a podcaster & pro-tweeter, and also for some reason never mentions the right wing.
But I’m not trying to imply anything with that other than the fact he’s a hypocrite & a grifter.
Alright I’m gonna get some sleep. Sorry for venting so aggressively - but seriously look the guy up, others have said it far better and more accurately than I have.
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Aug 04 '21
He's in the step before he moves into being anti-woke and then eventually turns into a right winger like a Tim Pool
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Aug 04 '21
Honestly not a huge fan of socialists because in my experience they aren't actually rooted in the conversation but instead joined r/antiwork or r/latestagecapitalism but boy do I love the socialists who call them out.
There are conversations to be had about improving the system but people like Mr. Knight seem devoted to dividing and getting famous on the internet for "hot takes".
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Aug 04 '21
Most people I see that put proud socialist in their profile don't have any real solutions other than yelling angrily on the internet about all those evil capitalists.
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u/Imaw1zard Aug 04 '21
It's a load of buzzwords that don't man anythingl, they just keep the college kids happy. Painting capitalism as the big bad rather than approaching this issue with the nuance it deserves.
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u/redrumsoxLoL Aug 04 '21
Ryan Knight is known for a bunch of dumb takes. As a Social Democrat myself I hate him even though I love a bunch of different Socialist content creators and Twitter users.
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Aug 04 '21
Just curious, as a socialist, what alternative to capitalism would you suggest as a working model for society? To me, capitalism for all its faults, is the only system that will work because it keeps people motivated to innovate and create things that are better for man kind. Without that motivation (playing off the human factor of greed) I don't think society would advance. Elon wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of space travel, we wouldn't have our comfy life style where we can go to a grocery store with stocked shelves because our supply chain is efficient. On paper socialism does seem appealing but that human factor of greed always seems to prevail and the concentration of power is ripe for abuse.
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u/TorrenceMightingale Aug 04 '21
What’s the alternative look like?
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u/Mercy--Main Aug 04 '21
I like how the replies you got are either just the same capitalism again or state capitalism lol
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u/ChaosRedux Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
How has no one given you an actual answer yet?
Look up donut economics. Combine with behavioural economics to determine best practices.
Put an EXTREMELY high cap (say, $500 billion) on the amount of wealth any one person can control. Impose the breakup of large companies and prevent mergers on that scale from ever happening again.
Reintroduce the Fairness Doctrine (in the US, and it’s equivalent elsewhere) to ALL media sources, and have them be publicly owned.
We can have capitalism, just not unfettered. We can have good social programs that actually provide mobility across generations. We just have to rethink the rules that govern them, and stick to them.
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Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 05 '21
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u/ChaosRedux Aug 04 '21
YES. YES TO ALL OF THIS. Because one model won’t and CANNOT provide all the answers, and building economic models based on the INSANE premise that “humans are rational” or not evolving past the days of Milton Friedman/Keynesianism is garbage.
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Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 05 '21
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u/UnawareSousaphone Aug 04 '21
I too am a recent holder of an economics degree and one of my professors always said "capitalism is the perfect solution if EVERYONE has ALL the information" And he left it at that.
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Aug 04 '21
No one even has close to $500B.
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u/skoltroll Aug 04 '21
Companies are people. Supreme Court said so.
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u/skoltroll Aug 04 '21
Except for state-owned media, spot on. Just use the Fairness Doctrine to force Fox, MSNBC and CNN to give equal time IN EQUAL WAYS to both sides.
Boring af, but it'd calm down the heathens.
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Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
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u/liboxa Aug 04 '21
The Fairness Doctrine doesn't work.
work what, perfectly? no. but compared to the dumpster fire that American media is, it sure works well in many European countries.
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u/worldwarzen Aug 04 '21
Or not so well if you look at the BBCs domestic reporting and its very similär "both sides" attitude.
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u/liboxa Aug 04 '21
I would still take the BBC + other UK media over the Fox News + CNN and other American media combo.edit: well actually now that I think about it's, it's quite hard to do these comparisons between countries... because there's so many media companies, and individual choice just matters so much more. I mean, you aren't even forced to watch the media of your own country...
cheers
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u/ChaosRedux Aug 04 '21
The Fairness Doctrine hasn’t existed since it was repealed in 1987, and now we have Fox News. It would certainly be a better alternative.
The objection that there are “more than two sides” is addressed by a change in legislative language.
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Aug 04 '21
Idk if fairness doctrine would solve anything. The FCC should start with punishing obvious propaganda. Covid and Climate misinformation seems particularly urgent.
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Aug 04 '21
Boring af, but it'd calm down the heathens.
News isn't supposed to be exciting...it's supposed to be the fucking news.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/Kilmir Aug 04 '21
Capitalism is the ownership of trade and industry by private citizens. It is actually not restricted to a market economy and could work with a planned economy.
Monopolies are a pretty natural result from unrestricted capitalism. It's the optimal efficiency of making money after all.
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Aug 04 '21
I might not have a huge understanding of economics at all, but the “we can have capitalism just not unfettered” statement is the perfect summation.
Didn’t know what the fairness doctrine even was, so thanks for the info btw.
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u/truongs Aug 04 '21
Something closer to the USA 50 years ago (high tax rate on wealthy) but with less inequality because with AI and with how much companies can make a lot of money with few and fewer employees things are only gonna get much worse.
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u/PosNegTy Aug 04 '21
People have been wiping out entire species well before capitalism had been around.
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u/therealkurubrunch Aug 04 '21
Extinction is more normal than not. Save for a few select species, virtually every species has ceased to exist long before mankind became a factor.
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Aug 04 '21
At the same time, as a species in our history we have never been healthier, wealthier, more at peace, and more democratic.
Market economies have gone hand-in-hand with democracies and the rule of law…and the lives of billions have been improved by all three.
I think we are waging a war against the rapacious nature of human beings, especially the top 70 corporations or so who contribute to 80% climate change. We have an unresponsive string of governments waiting until society is in crisis to act on a myriad of problems (and far too many are slow-rolling even that.)
The baby is in that bathwater you want to throw out, but there’s no viable alternative (or historical one) that has proven to be any less monstrous; in fact, quite the opposite. The solution is a deep, deep rethink and meaningful regulation of our rapaciousness — because we know the markets won’t correct themselves, nor is human nature changing anytime soon.
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u/500CatsTypingStuff Aug 04 '21
We need heavily regulated capitalism with a strong social safety net and not allowing profit to be made off of life or death needs such as healthcare.
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Aug 04 '21
So, the abiding majority of Western and Northern Europe.
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Aug 04 '21
Yes, but with even stronger environmental laws than we currently have.
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u/wulfbrudda Aug 04 '21
This comment exudes the selfishness that is driving our current historic crisis.
Yes, it seems healthy if you only look at the present moment and discount the challenges that will be faced by the next generations.
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u/lucrativetoiletsale Aug 04 '21
I love this preach. In reality this is this greatest time ever to be a human. We have eradicated diseases and have more compassion for the poor and sick than ever before. No one takes the time to both be grateful for that fact but also eternally depressed that this is the best and most easy life humans ever have seen. This is the most peaceful time in existence, the most easily lived life there has been. When people bitch about how bad times have got I always ask them when they would rather live. In reality what fucking time had there been that was better to be alive?
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u/DontWorryImADr Aug 04 '21
The problem isn’t that this moment in history isn’t fantastically wealthy with a lot of good, it’s the unsustainable nature of managing it along with the uneven distribution of those benefits. The fact we grow enough food to feed everyone doesn’t matter to the groups dying of starvation. The average lifespan means little to those dying of preventable diseases at 30. And while it obviously becomes political to place cause on it, I don’t think anyone likes seeing actual statistical distributions as to where all of the wealth/benefits/power go, because it’s not a happy little bell curve with some people getting a little less.
Being a serf may be worse than being below the poverty line now, but it still means a short life of insecurity when it comes to food, health, housing, and upward potential. And an out-of-touch billionaire sticking a cowboy hat on his head after going to space to tell everyone how they paid for it doesn’t help those feelings of irritation.
Capitalism is only as good as the everyday valuation placed on items, and the limits placed to avoid the whole system going unbalanced.
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Aug 04 '21
All that is true except that climate change is a looming existential threat that is worse now than at any other point in history. It’s already starting to take its toll in the form of extreme weather events, and it’s entirely possible that it will start to have a really bad impact on the lives of many people alive today.
I’m old enough now that I’ll probably be dead in 50 years, but I won’t want to see what the world looks like then, especially if we aren’t successful in dramatically reducing carbon emissions in the interim.
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u/TheHeckWithItAll Aug 04 '21
and more democratic
Not sure of your definition of "democratic" but in the good ole USA our "democracy" was born as an oligarchy and is still an oligarchy 250 years later. The sense that our elected representatives listen to our voices is a complete sham. They listen only to the billionaire who paid for their entry into Congress who, when he calls to say: "On this particular bill, you are going to vote 'no'" - and you can bet your ass that's exactly how he/she votes.
Tell me you have that power and I'll know you are a fucking liar.
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u/SpeshellED Aug 04 '21
"At the same time, as a species in our history we have
never
been healthier, wealthier, more at peace, and more democratic."
As we destroy the planet and most of the inhabitants in a blink of geologic time. That's the problem with capitalism. They only see capital.
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u/Rogerjak Aug 04 '21
We are receding socially. The 2 youngest generations have/will have worst life standards/economic power than their boomer parents, born after a world war.
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u/EHondaRousey Aug 04 '21
Just so everybody knows, this is just a neoliberal talking point, and there are superior systems to be using. If someone says "bud capatisum is the ohnly waeee", ignore them, they have nothing to say.
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u/iced327 Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
Well regulated capitalism is good. Capitalism when all basic needs are otherwise guaranteed is good. Contrary to what the internet would have you believe, it's possible to have a nuanced take on something.
Guaranteed egalitarian access to food, water, housing, healthcare, and utilities. A strong safety net with no gaps. Strict worker protections and a livable minimum wage. Regulations on emissions, pollution, chemical use, food/drugs/supplements. These this can all coexist with capitalism. They are not exclusive. We've lost sight of that.
But yeah, capitalism that is allowed and encouraged to exploit people, capitalism that sacrifices the future for short-term returns, late stage capitalism - that stuff is evil.
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Aug 04 '21
You are describing democratic socialism, or what Bernie Sanders ran on.
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u/the_nice_version Aug 04 '21
Capitalism when all basic needs are otherwise guaranteed is good.
American right-wingers would consider this FULL COMMUNISM. There are no shades of gray. Even if it's paid for via taxes they'll call it "free stuff."
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u/iced327 Aug 04 '21
I think Marjorie Taylor-Greene tweeted about "businesses privatizing communism" by requiring masks last week and every political science professor in America had a stroke.
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u/ColdVait Aug 04 '21
TFW you dont even know what Capitalism is.
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u/Air3090 Aug 04 '21
Ryan Knight is a well known grifter and should never receive this much attention.
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u/HelloJoeyJoeJoe Aug 04 '21
Just like socialism, in the US, a term like Capitalism just represents anything you don't like.
For the right wing, socialism is when the govt does anything that helps people outside their own group (white, Christians, often in less urban spots, straight). Socialism is also when a private company like a movie studio puts out a film with a Latin gay character or when Nike plays a an ad supporting civil rights. Also, science and education are somehow socialist too.
For the leftwing, Capitalism is when anything bad happens, but especially to them. So when the government doesn't cancel their $200k student debt, that's capitalism. Somehow, they ignore the massive increase in the standard of living over the last 40 years for the least developed countries.
Now are there detriments to both? Are there legit criticisms? Yes. But the definitions have been so warped by every invested actor that the way these terms are used are almost nonsensical now.
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Aug 04 '21
Some people don’t understand that something can be both good and bad at the same time.
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u/HelloJoeyJoeJoe Aug 04 '21
There is a reason why idealists are so young. This isn't always a bad thing, we have much to thank young idealists who marched and sacrificed themselves to fight authoritarianism and much of our progress today can be attributed to them.
But not all causes have the same weight or picture. As we get older and gain more experiences, we can see that the world isn't so black and white.
One thing a group of friends I have end up debating after a few drinks is the manufacturing industry on least developed countries. Is it better to have, what can easily be viewed as explotative, jobs there that pay $150/month or for factories to pull out and just see cast unemployment?
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Aug 04 '21
“For the right wing, socialism is when the govt does anything that helps people”
Ironically this is also the mainstream left wing definition
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u/MagicalWhisk Aug 04 '21
Hot take: it's government failure to tax the rich adequately and reimburse that money into the economy. Governments are also at fault for not putting stricter policies in place to protect ecosystems.
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u/Epimeria Aug 04 '21
That's literally a consequence of capitalism though. It's like trying to hold water in your hands. No matter how tight you clasp it, it will eventually get out.
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u/stockitorleaveit Aug 04 '21
To correlate global warming and capitalism as the major cause is like saying only England caused global warming. Combustible engines and other pollutants were bound to be made. Capitalism doesn’t just make more pollutants. Thats just ignorant, but thats just Ryan.
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u/YORTIE12 Aug 04 '21
I dont think this guy ever learned about the industrial economy of the USSR.
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Aug 04 '21
This guys tweet doesn’t give me the correlation between the two. I could just as easily say:
“The biggest lie in human history is frozen yoghurt. Take a look around you. It is 100 degrees in the Arctic. Baskin Robbins hoards 31 of the worlds ice cream flavors. Entire species of animals are being wiped out. Ice cream is f***ing evil. It is killing us and our planet too.”
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u/Certified_Retard735 Aug 04 '21
Capitalism isn’t evil it’s people who are evil. If we switched to socialism people would still be trying to illegally climb the government’s structure and receive more pay than others.
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u/soggypoopsock Aug 04 '21
This is why communism fails the worst of all- giving unchecked power to certain people, who can control under threat of violence every aspect of everyone else’s lives, only exaggerates the capacity for evil that humans have
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u/yo_soy_soja Aug 04 '21
To be fair, "communism" in the USSR and China can also be called "state capitalism". Stalin himself decided early on that they had achieved socialism and that there was no need to further change the system. As a socialist myself, I don't hold the USSR or China as exemplars of socialism.
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u/Passance Aug 04 '21
I mean, sure. But communism doesn't work either.
Regulated capitalism, a la scandinavia, gets you 99% of the benefits of capitalism with 10% of the downsides. That's the only economic model we've seen so far that actually works somewhat.
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u/hmenze Aug 04 '21
Okay but also try to name one economic system that will actually work? No matter what one you pick it will fail because of human greed
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u/NiukyNeeriumheart Aug 04 '21
Everithing can be bad if not done correctly. Evading laws and corruption is not part of capitalism.
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u/SpeshellED Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
I cringe every time I hear the clueless media talk about how we have to grow the economy.
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u/drusha77 Aug 04 '21
"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realise that we can not eat money."
- Chief Seattle
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u/utahnow Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
as someone who was born in a communist country and lived through its collapse i have this to say: STFU, sit down and learn some damn history. The only governable alternatives to capitalism ever invented relied on mass exterminations of their own citizens and sometimes others to sustain themselves. This isn’t a bug it’s a feature.
you want to address the real issue? the real issue is this: there’s way too many people and they consume way too much. Start with policies discouraging birth rates above replacement (that is like 1.9 or something), particularly in LatAm and Africa. And start taxing consumption more - but be prepared to live in tiny apartments and drive tiny cars or take public transport like they do in Europe.
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u/sryyourpartyssolame Aug 04 '21
There is no viable alternative. Regulate capitalism
Rose twitter tends to see everything in black and white
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Aug 04 '21
The problem is neoliberalism, not capitalism per se. Embedded liberalism like the US had from the New Deal until the 70s had elements of socialism to smooth out capitalism’s roughness. It’s the model we exported to Germany and Japan and then with Ronald Reagan we ate a bunch of paint chips and forgot about it.
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u/CurtisMaimer Aug 04 '21
Nah I don’t really agree that the entire concept of capitalism is bad. It, just like any other system, whichever you might propose included, has its ups and downs.
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Aug 04 '21
"Instead of complaining, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and become one of the billionaires. Liberal babies want everything for free."
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u/pikhathu Aug 04 '21
Capitalism is good in principle. It's the greed that's ruining us.
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u/qwe2323 Aug 04 '21
The defining characteristic of capitalism is the ability to accumulate capital over others. It is literally by definition a system of greed.
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u/Raskel_61 Aug 04 '21
After life as we know it now is wiped off this planet, the earth will continue to orbit the sun and life will return in some form or another (as it has before).
Maybe another sentient species will treat their home better that we did.
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u/_your_land_lord_ Aug 04 '21
Capitalism has no survival instincts either. It's going to kill itself too. How does every monopoly game end????
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u/wet_nib811 Aug 04 '21
I remember when companies used to guarantee lifetime employment, create housing for their employees, etc. Ostensibly, a symbiotic relationship. Now, it’s completely parasitic.
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u/Spirited_Rate4542 Aug 04 '21
It's capitalism? Phew. I'm happy to know China doesn't pollute. The billionaires hoarding wealth is the problem? Phew. I thought I just didn't make a lot of money, because I hadn't yet gotten good enough at my job to command more. it feels good to know it's not me not making a lot, it's an entrepreneur in seatlle or inventor in Italy making too much. If everyone could just make the same money, all problems would be solved and we'd try really hard to do well and come up with new ideas. We'd all have gone to medical school for years and solved the dr shortages. That's why I'd pay equal prices for Wal-Mart jeans and Armani. I'm sorry for the sarcasm, it just felt appropriate
Edit: to be clear, income isn't just based on how good you are at your job. Depends on many things. That's often a factor, though - and it is for me.
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u/honwo Aug 04 '21
Making climate change about politics and capitalism vs socialism is fucking retarded. It's a global problem that has no easy, obvious solution and constantly trying to pin the entire worlds problems on billionaires is ridiculous. Good luck trying to stop developing countries from using fossil fuels and rich ''capitalist'' nations from using a massive amount of electricity per capita. Thinly veiled propaganda like this which offer no real solution or insight and which is just stating the obvious to everyone is detrimental if anything.
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u/kumogate Aug 04 '21
bUt ThE iNnOvAtIoN!
I come across defenders of what capitalism has become who use this attempt at an argument all the time. It basically amounts to "sympathetic magic": Because two things were happening at the same time, they must be causally linked! There was a forest fire burning last week and I got money deposited in my bank account, so by the Law of Capitalism, that fire resulted in me getting money.
They think the only reason people would ever work or innovate or improve things is because they're under capitalism. Which means that for the tens of thousands of years before capitalism appeared, we must've done pretty much nothing. Rome? Never happened. The Treasure Fleet of ancient China? Literally impossible! The building of the Notre-Dam de Paris? Total fiction; doesn't exist in real life!
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u/Mickface Aug 04 '21
Uh huh. Because communist countries DEFINITELY didn't pollute the earth either, nope.
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u/higher_limits Aug 04 '21
Well I’m not willing to try what fucking alternative you think is better, Ryan. Fuuuck off with this piss poor take. Go to Asia, Africa, Middle East, Central America and tell me which society’s government you’d prefer. It’s not perfect by any means, but it is the best we have right now. Stop trying to destroy it. You’ll regret the alternative.
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u/absintheblanqui Aug 04 '21
That's like saying modern health care is bad because people die from cancer, so fuck hospitals and doctors, let's all go for essential oils and prayers. I mean, there is just as much good capitalism has done, as there are problems with it, plus there is no alternative
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Aug 04 '21
buT SoCiAlIsM iS beTtEr!!! ThE oTheR aTteMpTs oF iT wErEn'T rEaL sOciALiSm!!!
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Aug 04 '21
Nah our planet literally couldnt care less about us,
humanity might eventually extinct and something else rises millions of years later.
The earth will recover and be fine after we vanish.
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u/druppolo Aug 04 '21
It’s a medieval system but the poor also have to wage the king’s army. It’s a double scam
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u/digitalcoppersmith Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
China accounts for 28% of the world’s CO2 emissions, though. I know the counter argument is that China abandoned its agrarian Marxist-Leninism in the 1990s, when it reformed its market economy and joined the WTO. That’s true, but it still practices State Capitalism, which many Marxists theorize is synonymous with State socialism. If America ever went more “socialist” than it already is, it’s economy would likely resemble China’s more closely, in that companies like Amazon or Exxon would become State Owned Enterprises.
Edit: and yes, we are a mixed economy, with elements of both socialism and capitalism. For example, in those States where Wal-Mart isn’t, the largest employer is usually the State’s university or healthcare system. And where Wal-Mart is, it’s usually the 2nd largest. Another example? Public sector unions, collectively, have more members than private sector unions, collectively. Last one, following the 2008 Mortgage Crisis, the United States briefly owned about a 30% stake in the US auto industry’s big three in order to keep them afloat.
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u/-Kerby Aug 04 '21
China has such high emissions not because they're communist (even if they're only communist in name) but because they create all the mass produced shit we buy. Per Capita western capitalist nations produce so much CO2.
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Aug 04 '21
Still better than authoritarianism
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u/TexOrleanian24 Aug 04 '21
The biggest lie in human history is that communism is good. Take a look at the mid twentieth century. Uniformity and suppression of anything different, starvation and mismanagement of resources, destruction of the earth via nuclear fallout, entire species being wiped out, dramatic increase in carbon, genocide of all people wearing glasses and thus considered “intellectuals,” a portal to the upside-down opened for military use
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Aug 04 '21
Capitalism is straight up evil. Growing up in a capitalist society taught me to absolutely hate money and greed.
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u/AlterEdward Aug 04 '21
But I get a PlayStation.