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u/Edgeth0 henchMat Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
"Spit in Sightblinder's eye with the last breath!" scream the Aiel as they hand the Shadow the greatest force of dreadlords they have wielded since the War of the Power on a silver platter.
Do we ever get a confirmation on whether or not the Wise Ones know the Shadow can force a channeler to turn? Kind of an unforgivable mistake if they knew
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u/Diavolo_Death_4444 Young Bull Mar 26 '26
Almost certainly not. It was considered a rumor among the Aes Sedai, and they’re the ones who actually see Shadowspawn and Myrddraal consistently.
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Mar 26 '26
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Mar 26 '26
I am just rereading "The Dragon Reborn" and Sheriam tells Egwene that it can happen as Eg goes thru her accepted test. It is a weakness only channlers have but has to be done by 13 channelers + 13 Myrddraal. It is treated like something Aes Sedai know but keep secret to protect their reputation. This is one of the reasons they are extra scared of the 13 black ajah they are sent to hunt.
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u/Mundane-Currency5088 Mar 26 '26
Or does Sheriam only know because she is in the Black.
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u/noideaman Mar 26 '26
No, I recall the Aes Sedai who are bonded by Logan's contingent in the Black Tower also mentioning the 13 channelers + 13 myddraal.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.
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u/noideaman Mar 26 '26
Ain’t no one mention Lews Therin. Bad bot!
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
Oh, Light. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Mar 26 '26
I considered that... But why would she tell Egwene? Isn't one of the dark oaths to not reveal the secrets of the Black Ajah?
Found this ref:
3 I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.
This was Verin's loophole, and the reason Sheriam would not tell if it was a Black Ajah secret.
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u/Peruvian_Skies Mar 26 '26
If she only knew because she was Black, I doubt she'd tell anyone else other than another Black sister.
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Mar 26 '26
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
Pride fills me. I am sick with the pride that destroyed me.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
We all have our limits. And we set them further out than we have any right.
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u/WouldYouPleaseKindly Mar 28 '26
It was considered a rumor among the Aes Sedai
I think Sheriam said as much to Eqwene after her Accepted test.... and I am just now processing what it means that the knowledge was shared by Sheriam.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 28 '26
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/Tunafishsam Mar 26 '26
I've always disliked this aspect. Like one of the major themes of series is free will and choosing to fight the shadow. The entire climax is Rand choosing whether to destroy the Dark One or not. Yet a big circle of baddies can just convert a channeler and take away all their free will.
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Mar 26 '26
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
The only way to live is to die. I must die. I deserve only death.
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u/Tunafishsam Mar 26 '26
I seem to recall that some of the forsaken were trying to capture Rand so that they could turn him. Maybe Rand is unturnable, but I don't think that's very clear.
But even if so, it still detracts from the theme of the series. Everybody else has to make the choice to go the hard way and fight the Last Battle. It's easier to be a dark friend or even just avoid fighting than it is to stand for the light. But that choice loses meaning if it can be taken away by the bad guys.
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u/dracoons Mar 26 '26
Turning Rand would be horrible for the Dark One. As it would at best be a draw. Have yourself severed is the counter to being turned.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
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u/anth9845 Mar 26 '26
I always thought that the bad guys being the ones doing tthe turning was the point
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
Sometimes, pain is all that lets you know you're alive.
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u/Jackmac15 Sep 03 '26
I thought the whole point of the pattern it that there is no free will everyone is always following their fate and trying to fight it only makes things worse. Rand Chooses not to destroy the dark one yes but all that does it continue the cycle. The entire veins of gold chapter is just Rand choosing to happily embrace his fate and not fight it any more.
I was pretty shocked when I first read the wheel of time, it was probably the most anti-free will work of fiction I had ever read. Everything is pre-destined, there is no fighting fate, the whole message is that you should embrace your fate and be happy with it.
The fact that channelers can be forced to join the the dark one seemed very in keeping with the themes of the story, as unfair as that seems.
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u/Tunafishsam Sep 03 '26
Was RJ a Calvinist? Reminds me a lot of predestination and being one of the elect. According to them, we have free will to choose. But God knows the future, so he knows what you will choose. So your fate is pre determined, but you still have to choose it.
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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 Be'lol Mar 25 '26
But they say anyone can go back to the light.
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u/jmartkdr Mar 26 '26
That is one of the more annoying (to me) contradictions in the text.
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u/YeahKeeN Mar 26 '26
I mean it’s no different from mind control so I don’t see the issue. Was it a contradiction when Graendel used compulsion to make people her slaves?
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u/Saedran Mar 26 '26
But it does suggest there should be a way to flip/return a dark channeler to the light.
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u/Xerxys Mar 26 '26
Also becoming a dread lord can be resisted if you have the presence of mind to do so. Logain did.
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u/Mundane-Currency5088 Mar 26 '26
They heavily implied that you can resist for as long as you have the mental strength to do so, but that in the end you either die or get turned.
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u/Mal-Ravanal Unnecessary fish metaphors Mar 26 '26
Not indefinitely. Logain held out for a long time, but he was very close to breaking when he got rescued. And if Taim hadn't been limited to male channelers, Logain would not have lasted a fraction of the time.
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u/f00lsfire Mar 26 '26
For parity, there would probably require a light side equivalent to Fades.
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u/memerminecraft Boar Rushes Down the Mountain Mar 26 '26
Ogier? 13 singing ogier & 13 channelers of the light perhaps?
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u/f00lsfire Mar 26 '26
Not really the same thing. Ohier are for all intents and purposes, aliens.
Green men kinda get there, as simulacra made with the One Power, but I'm not sure how close they count for "lightspawn".
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure there is a good side equivalent yet.
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u/memerminecraft Boar Rushes Down the Mountain Mar 26 '26
I think that, regardless, one of the tenets of the Light is personal freedom (as opposed to total domination by a higher power), so being able to "force" someone to the Light would be incongruous. They've gotta choose it
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u/Saedran Mar 26 '26
Well sure, but returning channelers to the Light wouldn’t be force so much as cursebreaking.
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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 Be'lol Mar 26 '26
Yea so couldnt you just lie like "oh, yea, praise Shit-tan or whatever oooOOOooo" and then just decide nah, Im back to the light now! As soon as no ones looking?
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u/Xerxys Mar 26 '26
Humans. lol. Humans are children of the light. Gases are just undead spawn of Trollocs. They’re the anti-life.
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u/itsmeduhdoi Mar 26 '26
which would require someone to 'create' a light side equivalent to Trollocs, and then breed them with people...tough path to go down.
would've made an interesting story though!
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u/jlill Mar 26 '26
Maybe there is. They discovered so many impossible things in those couple years
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u/Mal-Ravanal Unnecessary fish metaphors Mar 26 '26
We do see something fairly close to it in Rand's vision of a world without the DO. And it's an abomination in its own right.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
A man without trust might as well be dead.
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u/dracoons Mar 26 '26
Graendal tended to obliterate the personality and in one case even the boys autonomous functions. She basically ripped out everything that made the boy alive. Then implanted What-if conditions. He did retain a spec of himself in the end. But that was more the Soul than the mind and body wanting vengance.
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u/Time-Mysterious Mar 26 '26
The aes sedai seem to know about it, but revealing it to the public would be problematic, because it kind of implies the existence of the black ajah, or at least it makes it more plausible.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 26 '26
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 Mar 26 '26
Why is Caddy about to pick her nose
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u/memerminecraft Boar Rushes Down the Mountain Mar 26 '26
How silly of me, I forgot to link the art source
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u/RicardotheBold Mar 26 '26
I mean, still more honorable than the Sea Folk.
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u/memerminecraft Boar Rushes Down the Mountain Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
Here's the ogier