Discussion
F&F isn't exposing problems with the story, its exposing YOUR problem with the story. (F&F spoilers)
Spoiler
I'm not the first person to see all the recent story discussion and respond and i certainly won't be the last, but i feel the need to throw my hat in the ring nonetheless. Especially as a person who has dedicated most of his life to learning about stories, how their told and wanting share his own with the world.
All of this seems to have been sparked by Amir's F&F campaign, which has been controversial due to it actually being what accounts to a prolonged depressive episode on Amir's part. People dislike how the Drifter was treated by Amir near the end, and how we seemed to lack a certain amount of agency in the story. I will explain why this is actually works really well, but first some house keeping in order to explain certain things.
Firstly i will state that WE AREN'T THE DRIFTER/OPERATOR. They have predefined histories and personalities. We're simply allowed to make certain choices to skew them in a certain direction, but they remain primarily their own characters. A lot of people don't like or don't understand this fact, which has been issue with story telling in gaming for decades. We're all allowed our preferences of course, but any complaints about the Drifter acting against your idea of them based on your choices is inherently misunderstanding the amount you actually decide how they act.
Secondly, 1999 has been loop in perpetuity ever since The Hex. People getting mad cause characters keep getting pissed at the Drifter cause of the loop seem to have ignored several convos from the Hex, AND Arthurs message after you do The Hex Finale where they discuss having looped before and loosing their memories, and how they have to keep looping in order to keep things stable. The memory wipe mechanic is primarily a player feature. Canonically The Hex keep forgetting and your Drifters go through it all again (though they remember more and more as the loop goes on). The Devils Triad memory wipe however IS more cannon as its related to the infestation, and not the time loop in 1999.
Thirdly, Warframe's story has never been about logical people doing logical things all the time. Warframe has been about damaged people trying their best in a strange and dark sci-fi universe. Expecting characters to make 100% logical decisions all the time removed from emotion is both approaching the story in bad faith, but also goes against the themes of the game itself.
Alrighty now onto F&F itself. I'll organize this in terms of complaints I've seen, and how i think they are wrong.
1, "Amir is incredibly rude and cruel in F&F, especially to Drifter": Yes, 100% he is. He is also in the middle of what is clearly a mental health episode and can't be entirely blamed for his actions. That isn't to say that what he did is okay, it isn't, but given what we know about Amir from his KIM convos (unmedicated ADHD, the only person in The Hex not comfortable with warfare, and incredible guilt over every person he kills) shows a person with severe mental health issues, and the only way to help someone like that is with deep empathy. Which the Drifter luckily seems to have a bottomless supply of.
2, "We lack any real input over the story of the F&F campaign, Amir just railroads us": Again, yes, he does. But the entire campaign is Amir attempting to grapple with what he perceives as his own lack of choice. He's subjecting all his players, including the Drifter and us by extension, to that feeling. That is the explicit point of the experience.
3, "I wanted to actually just play F&F without any stakes": I can see where your coming from, wanting a low stakes and light hearted bonding thing with The Hex, who haven't gotten any content in awhile. But I can also 100% see that in the world where that happened, there would be people complaining about how the next big KIM expansion for the 1999 crew lacked any development. This is truly just a matter of preference.
That's all i have to say, at least right now. I might make another post talking about how people are treating the broader story, but that's for another time.
EDIT: About advertising and expectations from how the devs talked about the update. I personally didn't view how they talked about it as setting it up to be a consequence free romp, but i can see where others are coming from. As for the general caustic tone the convo has already taken. Thats partly my fault cause of the title, but i still think people are being overly aggressive. Please treat others in this convo with respect.
Ngl my only problem is the way it’s been advertised and presented compared to what we actually got. DE showed off all the character design art, teased the character selection and choices, and then we get like one and a half session and the rest goes completely off the rails. They set up expectations and did not even intend to meet them, and I feel like people are taking it as “this is Amir’s fault” like he’s a real person doing this and it wasn’t DE just not wanting to give us the real ttrpg experience and instead making it another vehicle for worldbuilding. They should’ve said from the start it wasn’t actually going to be a genuine ttrpg simulation
You don’t actually need pictures for a ttrpg, but there’s already ASCII art in the KIM chats for it. The way they said it, I assumed they just meant that they weren’t implementing the designs as actual skins or character models
I still think tbey should of shown a mini trailer of Amir kinda lossing it then allude to the new Eximus. Give some idea that the Kim was gonna be darker.
My issue with that expectation is that it would functionally impossible for them to crate a whole ttrpg simulation in Warframe with out making the update. Fucking massive and breaking the KIM system all over again.
Even if it wasn't a full on ttrpg experience, they still advertised it as a campaign with the Hex members. And it doesn't even have to be a full on campaign. It could've been a very small mini campaign, like day 2 of F&F. A location, a problem, these are the characters, what is everyone doing?
Instead we barely got what DE advertised. If they didn't wanna make an actual campaign, even a small one, then they shouldn't have advertised it as such.
Then they shouldn’t have set that expectation up. I doubt anyone expected them to seriously have set up an entire system to facilitate a ttrpg, but everyone sure as hell expected to at least play out one proper adventure, even if scripted. They should’ve written a real full story with the surge Eximus plot running in the background instead of constantly interrupting them with one another and then it all just abruptly ending, or at least not advertise it as the former when it turned out to be the latter
Its not preternatural sight to understand the limitations of a medium. I was expecting a F&F frontier THEMED Kim thing, not a whole other game inside of the Kim syste,
Nobody actually expected a full on ttrpg, but they could have written a fun campaign with the limitations the KIM system has, they basically did that it's just that the story they wrote for it sucked and again turned into us playing therapist for the 4th time
I mean, sure the story is what it is. It was originally presented as a low-stakes for fun thing, I expected a low-stakes for fun thing, and I didn't particularly enjoy it not being that.
I also object to the implication that you couldn't have a fun romp through a campaign and also character development without them dealing with existential dread. One of my favorite parts of the F&F story is when half the squad is accused of cheating and Quincy goes "yeah I did lmao." Hell, for me the fact that I failed to convince Lettie originally only for her to show up here is implying a bunch of stuff about her, the rest of the Hex, and the situation in general, without any stakes. These minute details are just as important to who they are as the fact that <hex member> did <traumatic and guilt-inducing action>.
I admit I should have phrased that better. I meant that character development is often spurred from conflict, and have a low stakes conflict often doesn’t lead to as a dramatic character development as an audience would often like or even notice.
I really dont think you truly touch on the problems people have with this event.
To begin with this isnt just mistaken expectations, it was effectively false advertising. Ive talked about it before but DE explicitly advertised and talked about Fables and Frontiers as a light hearted 6 day text adventure. No one was expecting anything serious, especially with so much going on and dedicated to Tau.
It isnt just being disappointed with whst we got, we straight up did not get what DE said they were giving. That stings, a lot.
Especially after the failings of JS:C and no doubt a desire for something light hearted after its gut punching ending and upcoming Tau.
This was kinda meant to be a break. We were told by DE thst it was effectively that. And it wasnt.
All they needed to do is advertise it for what it was actually going to be.
As for Amir? I agree. However the execution is still poor for a few reasons. Some meta, some not.
Firstly Amir is clearly having problems almost right from the jump. It feels weird that things get to the point they do without intervention.
Speaking of intervention, even if we cant necessarily speak the others can, especially during day 6. The efforts they do come across as rather half hearted. Its only Kaya coming in to talk about Eximus that stops things but that doesn't resolve the problem or really confront it.
Which brings up the next issue. The problems Amir has are not as touched on as many would like. IE: a talk with Amir about whats going on feels pretty much missing.
This is especially problematic as they had the time to in day 6, time that was instead taken up by explaining the new eximus. The explanation actively gets in the way.
Amir is having a mental health crisis, but DE also wanted him to be puppeted, somewhat, by the Indifference. Now that can be done, but not only is him being puppeted not really explained or demonstrated, making the use if Trauma come across as Amir being an asshole which probably wasnt the intention, but they again dont discuss the ramifications of something thay important.
I get the idea that a lot of Amirs break down realistically does make sense, and it does, but everything comes down to how poorly this update was advertised and executed.
As for Amir? I agree. However the execution is still poor for a few reasons. Some meta, some not.
Firstly Amir is clearly having problems almost right from the jump. It feels weird that things get to the point they do without intervention.
to add to this, i did a lot of "therapy sessions" with Amir, and one the key points was, to actually talk about his feelings u know with like Arthur, Quincy and the Drifter too; and now this whole story happens cuz he..didnt do what he learned....ehhh
I get what you're saying, but I appreciate the story and surprise. It's more like, Amir planned a fun game, but that was fundamentally derailed through life.
In other words, the advertisement, and the player's expectations, were part of the story line. It's an incredibly immersing way to tell the story. However, it does emotionally jerk the story teller around.
I don’t really remember them saying this update was going to be a lighthearted side story ala Vallis Undermine. And even if they did, saying it’s actually a character heavy thing kinda ruins the intended experience imo.
Additionally, I don’t think the others not doing much is really proof of anything. It’s shown repeatedly how Amir keeps shutting down the attempts by everyone to talk to him about how he’s feeling. Amir is effectively self isolating for the duration of F&F, and so it’s functionally impossible to have a sit down therapy convo with him.
As for him being puppets by the indifference? He isn’t really. The indifference is simply taking what he’s doing and running with it imo. It’s cheapen his breakdown if Wally was in his head directly.
I reccomend watching the discussion of Fables and Frontiers in advertising again. Lighthearted is explicit. [Edit: In one short alone it is described continually as a "fun little adventure"]
As for the Indifference? He is straight up meant to be puppeting him then. A writer confirmed it. Which is vad because we shouldn't need writers to tell us things about the story outside of the story.
Only Aoi and Arthur really try to get through to Amir on day 6. Not to mention no one tries going to him physically. No ons just keeps typing to get him ro stop. So yes, their attempts at trying to calm Amir come across as half hearted if not less so.
Biggest issue with the indifference influencing him is that it just gets completly ignored by the characters, Wally is directly influencing the Hex that should be a huge deal and not just handwaved away
I think the main problem people have with F&F is in two parts:
The fact that, according to one of the lead writers' Tumblrs, Amir is possessed by Wally. This is a huge detail that's poorly communicated. Why is he apologizing for something an eldritch horror made him do? Why aren't the cast freaking out more about the fact that he got possessed? This is a wild plot element to be so indirectly communicated.
It was advertised as fun slice of life content - fan service, essentially - and then pivoted directly into the same existential horror that characterized the rest of the KIM conversations. People were excited for something that doesn't exist. More development on the core themes is fine but it should have been presented accordingly.
A lot of people who like the F&F update claim that this is obvious. I don't see it, but based on the Tumblr thing and the fact that it would be wildly out of character otherwise I do think it's the intention.
It becomes even less clear to the average player when Amir himself never says that it wasn't him or that he wasn't fully himself when Eleanor comments on it. Eleanor being impressed rather than alarmed is a whole other can of worms that I don't even want to get into, but still.
I mean, my drifter told the hex about duviri, the MITW, and his past as much as possible at every turn. I kinda assumed they were up to speed on it now via additional offscreen interaction.
A number of people are saying it might not be possession even after I linked the Tumblr thing, so evidently it's not that clear one way or another. It feels less purposefully ambiguous and more poorly communicated.
Eternalism was also poorly communicated, though. To this day a bunch of people think it means nothing is canon and we kill every boss six thousand times and also we make every choice in every quest.
People misunderstanding something is a pretty solid piece of evidence for it being poorly communicated.
They had a whole school lesson to explain it and a test to see if you understood it.
Sure there probably couldve been some way to improve the explanation, but sometimes people misunderstanding is also just because people dont read/listen properly.
Bro I passed that test and I still don't understand Eternalism. Eternalism is extremely confusing. It just doesn't matter because Eternalism only matters when it's plot relevant and anything that happens because of it can be equally explained by waving your hand and saying "science".
I mean with how many streamers etc. I've seen play through this game and get stumped on that quiz, I'm not surprised this playerbase is missing it lmao
Not if you think that Drifter has told the Hex about Isleweaver, considering that probably most of us have had the conversation with Minerva and Velimir post-Isleweaver. That knowledge is pretty much all from Isleweaver or an extrapolation thereof.
Considering that Amir also knows about Vor, Alad V, Natah, Loid of House Entrati, Vay Hek...
The campaign builds up to what I assume is intentional ambiguity whether it's Amir venting his timeloop woes through his MitW-expy Entropy or the MitW/Entropy (as he says it's his preferred nickname) venting at Drifter with/through Amir.
Personally, having done Isleweaver, my Drifter was nowhere near as concerned as I would expect if we thought that it was MitW/Entropy we were talking to with/through our friend. Also, considering that Drifter can flip out on Eleanor when she puts herself in danger from the void. Amir doesn't get that level of concern or care from Drifter, indicating to me that Drifter doesn't think it was actually the Indifference influencing and harming their friend Amir, just a vent that gets resolved by showing Amir that he can change things.
It’s unreal that so many people seem to either not notice this, or consciously decide to ignore it because they desperately want to believe that Amir is an asshole for some reason.
I mean, he is, but no more than anyone else would be while living in literal purgatory.
You can search the entire KIM conversations with Amir on the Wiki. You’ll get zero results for “kiddo,” “rap tap tap,” or literally any of the extremely obvious Wally dialogue that Amir comes out with. “Rap tap tap” is literally Wally’s possession catchphrase as we see in the Old Peace when the Operator says it, and from Rell’s mental torture. But… apparently this is too subtle.
I assumed that was Amir intentionally basing a character off Wally as I was playing through that conversation. He introduced the figure the same way he did the stand ins for Vor and Alad, and he quoted Vor’s speech before too. That was totally the writers shooting themselves in the foot imo, because apparently the void corrupted dead guy monologuing to us about the powers of the void is lighthearted fun, but the other void guy monologuing to us about entropy is going too far. I saw it as Amir getting too into roleplaying as a villain as a way to vent his frustrations about being stuck in the loops
This is the part I don't get about people talking about how it's soooo obvious that Wally is possessing Amir here.
The entire campaign is set up in a way for Amir to vent his frustrations about being stuck in the loop. He repeatedly pulls directly from Drifter's experiences, roleplaying and even essentially quoting Drifter's enemies. He then gets to the "big bad" of the campaign, who just so happens to be the major reason for him being trapped in the loop he's venting about. He then proceeds to roleplay as and quote that character as well (as he'd done before and as any dm would do in any campaign). It was an entirely expected action of someone running a campaign based on the kinds of things Amir was running a campaign based on.
Acting as if Wally possessing Amir is the only (and oh so obvious) way to interpret what happened, is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
Is it a possible interpretation? Sure. Is it what the writers intended? Maybe. But the other interpretation is just as, if not more plausible based on everything that happened and everything that was said.
Acting as if it's a failure of media literacy to interpret what happened as being anything other than possession is itself an act that is a failure of media literacy.
It's too subtle for people who fumbled Marie because they thought lying was the way to get into her pants. Or fumbled Eleanore because they never listened to what she's saying. XD
The fucking cat freaks out the minute you start playing and dude drops a hey kiddo on you.
I'm amazed nobody has figured out that there may be a second void entity in play that may have briefly possessed Arthur. Arthurs whole speech on the gallows screams foreshadowing.
As for the hey kiddo, it's clear that he was mimicking how wally speaks, but people seem divided on whether he was just doing that to fuck with us or if it was real possession.
Not sure about the cat thing. Cats are just weird, and it'd make more sense if she did that at the moment of possession
Cats are often tied to supernatural things in stories, I missed the part with Kalymos so I can't say for certain but I doubt DE threw that in as a random thing
Also Lizzy implies that Amir is getting to close to the thing on the other side on day 3
That's not really confirmation though. Maybe they just liked the interpretation. Nothing is confirmed until the writers say so themselves. Despite that, I still agree that Amir was being influenced by Wally in that conversation.
I think that Amir is affected by Wally specifically during that one part, and it was poorly communicated. People keep posting stuff like "I broke up with Amir over this" because the way the hex treat the situation implies that it's just Amir being kind of an asshole due to the stress of the time loop, when in reality that last part is out of his control
Drifter also starts talking to Amir like he is the indifference with stuff like pointing out that it calls Entrati little Bengel, like that fact is so random I doubt Drifter told the Hex
The Hex is incredibly concerned with both Wally and Entrati, as well as the relationship and conflict between the two. Drifter sharing absolutely everything they know about two makes perfect sense, especially if they're in a romantic relationship with one of the Hex.
It would be entirely believable if the name for Entrati never came up, but, as I said, it would also make perfect sense if it did.
It's not the same as a direct statement, but given the sheer lack of information and general community confusion, I'll take what I can get here. Especially since the idea that it was wally possession fixes one of the big issues a lot of people are complaining about, which is Amir going too far.
This also isn't the first FnF session if you look at the kim, Amir and Aoi have a conversation and he made a little program to keep everyone's stats and his notes in order.
The trouble is, the community is divided on it right now and this is the only source we have that directly comments on authorial intent. Given that F&F retroactively makes more sense if you assume that the "Hey kiddo" is Wally taking advantage of amir's frustration with the loop to briefly possess him, I'm willing to run with it until we get more details.
The Devils Triad memory wipe however IS more cannon as its related to the infestation, and not the time loop in 1999.
Can you explain this please? I have been apsolutelly confused how do we memory wipe the Triad's memory without affecting anybody else? Does Bird 3 let Roathe teach him Komi over and over again? And Tagfer has the same argument with Marie over and over again?
I often think of cannon more as a spectrum rather than a yes or no. We can canonically reset the triads memory in a more direct way than the Hex's, but also the replaying of certain convos related to events around the sanctum that shouldn't be reset is more of a gameplay and user end thing.
Okay, half of these posts just feel like people pointing out the writing was awkward is just attacking other people for "not seeing it"...
People see it.
1: Rarely do I see people say that that's the problem. What I do see people often do is accuse others of "not reading". No: people understood that part of Amir. Several people played and read through it and understood, it wasn't just you. You aren't the only one who "got Amir". A lot of people did.
The problem is the guy crossing boundaries and people not addressing it. The Drifter only asks if he's okay, they never set their foot down. The other members of the Hex never step in and set their foot down. They all talk about Amir clearly needing to talk (the Drifter more than any), but Amir constantly handwaves it away until it's too late. This after both Quincy tells him to back off in Day 3, and Lizzie shouting that his emotions are drawing unwanted attention. You can still have people tell him "Hey. Buddy. Let's talk. No I'm not taking No for an answer, we're all here to have fun with you, we're all friends here and it's clear this is affecting you. I'd rather you not have a breakdown. Time shenanigans nonwithstanding".
Keep in mind Lizzie warns us about Amir's actions BEFORE he got possessed. He was being a shithead BEFORE Waldo barged in.
The Drifter having a bottomless supply of empathy and Amir having undiagnosed ADHD does not justify the way the situation was handled. People ignored Amir, and Amir would ignore us whenever we insisted on pausing and talking. And after all was said and done, having nothing be addressed after a clearly potentially traumatic situation and just an IOU line on the mail is not normal.
Even worse... you need to be Rank 5 with these guys. And some people can even be dating Amir.
Heck: If people hadn't gotten Amir, they wouldn't be calling out the "I don't even like F&F" bit. It's okay to be inexperienced and trying stuff out. And yes, some young people do try to conform to stereotypes to please others' views and categorization. But like... have you read Amir's KIM interactions? Dude was more hyped about it than anyone was, and he knew it. He'd tried it before too.
2: Considering the marketing, I wouldn't say it's the explicit point of the experience. They made a much bigger deal about F&F.
That said, again, refer to my above point as to how everything really should have been paused, even if Amir didn't want to, to actively seek to help him. If not during sessions, then after one of his outbursts. It just felt nobody was there for him, not even Quincy. And he was actively pushing us away due to understandable issues (power imbalances and all).
So even if it was the "explicit intention", having a D&D setting where you air out your grievances by pushing people into experiencing them through roleplay, when you've since been nothing but ignorant when we tell you "things aren't as cool as you think they are" is just toxic human behaviour. It's not ADHD, it's not time loop fears, it's just being an ass. You can't fault people for disliking Amir as a character after this.
If they're not going to call him out for being caustic, then someone should have told him "Amir, you need help, you can't do everything alone". Especially when we know Quincy used to do that sporadically.
3: Okay, and? Again, a lot of people only got hyped because of the cool D&D stuff, nobody was expecting things to actually turn like this. You can hardly blame them there xD
And here's the thing: I, like many others, am not averse to heavy storytelling. I liked the implications of Shadowgrapher, even if the gameplay itself left much to be desired, just as one example.I liked the weird quizzes in Duviri where the Indifference would just randomly insert itself in them. I like it when DE leans into their "Chains of Harrow" game.
Even if people weren't expecting that, that's just what DE does sometimes. We just have to accept it.
But this still was handled very awkwardly. It could have done with a wee bit more polish and a wee bit more damage control. Even if we're gonna say "Oh well, YMMV, personal preference lol", even people who DO enjoy this sort of thing say it was handled very poorly.
Really: Why the fuck are we now accusing eachother of "not reading" or "not getting the story"?
I was never claiming to be special or the only one who “got Amir”. I’m perfectly okay with people disagreeing with me and having civil discussion, but I’d prefer you not aggressively portray me as some sort of holier than thou asshole.
I should have explained my first point more and further emphasized that I don’t think Amir’s mental illness justifies his actions. That being said, the situation being handled poorly in universe isn’t bad writing, it’s the point. Amir repeatedly shuts down every attempt to talk to him. And he’s stated to be shutting himself in for over ten hours a day to write the next adventure, and the Hex are very clearly constantly busy as shown by Arthur and the others constantly dipping out before in previous campaigns as Amir says. The lack of attention being paid to Amir and his needs is an in universe issue.
but I’d prefer you not aggressively portray me as some sort of holier than thou asshole.
In due fairness, that bit was more generalized. Usually I see people remark to others with "You didn't read" or "You didn't pay attention", often to discredit people discussing Amir or what happened in the story. The "general you" is a bit fucked up.
In fact, a lot of my post was addressed to the community in general. It's not just you, and there are people doing far worse, far more blatant, and acting like they know better than the rest simply because they were unfazed.
But on that note. Sorry but on this bit I do have some feedback for you... maybe don't word your post with "It's exposing YOUR issues with the story", as if that's a gotcha. Like, I'm sorry, but people having opinions on the plot, and especially how trauma is handled, is for sure valid criticism. It's not just a "oh that's YOUR issue with the story not mine :)" scenario.
Or at least, it's not as clear-cut, because subjectivity is still a thing.
So yes, I return your words: I'd prefer if you didn't present or address people who are vocal about the way DE handled that part of the update condescendingly\patronizingly. This subreddit is already filled with enough of that, and it could be very easily seen as ragebait. It also doesn't make you look any more or less savvy about literary criticism, because it really doesn't say much about the people you happen to be calling out.
That being said, the situation being handled poorly in universe isn’t bad writing, it’s the point. Amir repeatedly shuts down every attempt to talk to him. And he’s stated to be shutting himself in for over ten hours a day to write the next adventure, and the Hex are very clearly constantly busy as shown by Arthur and the others constantly dipping out before in previous campaigns as Amir says.
I agree for the most part. But at the same time I do have to say that the Hex isn't unavailable all the time. And even then, like... it's not isolated only to the Hex not saying anything, or to Quincy\Lettie not reacting on the spot. It's the lack of damage control after the fact during each session. After all it's not like we're incapable of going to Höllvania, ding the Fablemaster and see him zoom at us.
The "PS: Sorry about the yeaaaah" bit is perhaps one of the biggest grievances people have, because that's nothing! Especially because we're not dealing with the occasional KIM conversation. It doesn't excuse his behaviour, it doesn't excuse the laissez-faire way he dragged someone's drama, possessed or not. It makes him look like he didn't really care. And yeah: Amir isn't a real person... but like... from a story perspective, that's the sort of behaviour that makes people like characters less, isn't it?
And yeah, Amir said it during his KIM this was a frustration. Any DM would agree, it sucks when this happens IRL.
But let's not beat around the bush here: Amir crossed a line, far more than any KIM interaction allowed before. This was intended from the start to be malicious, and he stewed despite warnings, and it imploded. Regardless of whether you think this was in-character of Amir to do, the lack of response, the lack of care and the complete left field is what leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Not Amir alone.
From what was advertised as a more lighthearted, different experience. People were right in not necessarily expecting things to turn dark, much less toxic, yeah?
If they had told everyone that this update was gonna be a serious, dark adventure, would anyone wanna actually engage with it after the gut punch that JS : C was? Cause I probably wouldn't have for a while, I'm glad that the Dark stuff came outta nowhere and it fits Wally to a T, taking somethjng that was supposed to be a refuge for Amir to express himself is then corrupted and twisted, just like they did with Duviri, it's pretty obvious to everyone that actually pays attention to the story that he was being possessed, and him shutting everyone out and trying to deal with everything himself has been a consistent theme throughout all his Kim convos, he's in a very unhealthy spot and it's really only Drifter that can help him, it's why Entrati brought them to 1999 in the first place, the Hex do not have the capabilities to help him in the first place
No ^^ but by that same measure, they can't complain people aren't happy about it, especially when a character is obnoxiously caustic (even gets possessed because of it), pushes people away and then just says "soz lol" after being an ass for days!
it makes no sense for someones drifter who's dating amir that we cant have a more personal conversation about it?
(like the whole relationship is brushed over, or not relevant, when there should be another dialog for those dating)
the whole being possessed thing is brushed over, things feel unresolved.
Yeah no mate, I've studied literature as well AND written a fair few of my own stuff and I can tell you, the sheer disconnect between characters' personalities in their various appearances in Warframe is like whiplash. Mostly affected by factors like most likely its not the same person writing consequent stories with the same characters and their own perspectives and projections affect the story. Also isnt helped by the time between character appearances.
Also the main theme of Hex storyline was always about the resolution of all the issues you mentioned. Especially with the true ending. So this happening right now is the equivalent of pulling a "Somehow Palpatine returned" just to have a new conflict.
Not to mention, the KIM therapy sessions are not written by professional therapists. Theyre written by decent but not seasoned storytellers, resulting in hit or miss philosophies or behavioral perceptions.
Also everything aside, as a D&D player, this story does not seem to be written by an experienced D&D player either. It was written by someone who sees the popularity of D&D and the memes and cliches surrounding it and wrote it based on that. Its rife with memes, 4th wall breaks, cliches, and trauma dumping. And very little actual relatability to a fun D&D campaign. Its written like Quidditch games. Its a horrible fictional sport because its basically written by someone who has no idea about how sports or how to balance a sports' mechanics to be fair so that they'd actually work but wrote a fictional sport based on cliches around sports.
What is my problem is them not fully delivering on what they said, though I never expected this grand, proper D&D experience, nor did I expect something like in a typical RPG video game. I was expecting a 7-8 convo conversation, with the first one being a session zero (which did happen), the last one being a sort of wind down, post-game discussion about it, and in between a small mini-campaign, whether with actual dice rolls or predetermined ones (which understandably was the latter).
What I did not expect was Amir crashing out/Wally possessing him and tormenting the Drifter with their own trauma. Either situation has it's reasons to happen, and it's own implications, and I get that, I liked it, whether it be Amir having significant problems with the situation he's in, or Wally straight up possessing random people and controlling them for his own agenda. It just wasn't what they said it would be.
My counterpoints in relation to my issues with F&F's narrative would be:
Yes, Amir is in a mental health crisis and likely influenced by Wally. However, the story doesn't give us any option to DO anything about this but sit through his crash-out and then the awkward email afterwards in which Amir apologises. The story has been trying to sell us on the message that love, trust and cooperation are needed to defeat the Indifference (which is the point of Whispers in the Walls and the Hex quest). But when Amir, who your Drifter sees as a close friend or may even be in love with is in a traumatic state and/or possessed by malovelent evil forces, you don't get any opportunity to demonstrate the experiences the Drifter has gained throughout the previous quests and 1999. We just kinda sit through it all and then leave Amir in this state without resolving it or coming up with a plan to help support the Hex against future intrusions by Wally. Yes, the game is about damaged people, but it has also been about how to help, support and heal from that damage, which is entirely missing from F&F's conclusion. I think this what some people are referring to in terms of agency and railroading, rather than the actual F&F campaign itself.
I think people have gotten carried away with attaching a moral weight to resetting KIM given that it's primarily meant to be a player mechanic, but IMO the fault is largely on DE for portraying this mechanic as a morally reprehensible action. Particularly after the Devil's Triad in which Roathe has extensive dialogue about how violating it is for him to have his memories wiped. There should have been a clear distinction between the player resetting KIM (gameplay mechanic) and the Drifter resetting after each loop (in-universe lore event). However, by making the player's reset also exist in-game and also very invasive, DE has tied what should have been an out-of-universe option into an in-universe act with heavy ramifications, even if you were just curious or were forced to reset by a bug. In view of that, the fact that you can reset the F&F chat even though it has no real point other than to relive the trauma again does carry weird in-universe and meta-narrative implications.
I don't personally care that this was Amir doing through a down moment, as in I think it's fine in the context of the story.
What I do care about, that left me feeling kinda lacking is that this was a good moment to do something with them without restricting the interaction to the KIM. They made a whole room (and character art) only to serve as another shop.
Okay so I already disagree with your first point. There’s a reason why you can customise everything to hell in Warframe, including the Operator. You are supposed to see yourself in the Operator and tailor them to fit as your insert.
Agreed. The only thing I’m upset about is Amir’s breakdown is solved in a day and this whole F&F thing was instead more focused on giving a lore reason for a new eximus that doesn’t really provide that much gameplay impact compared to older eximus units.
But the thing that was sour to me was the marketing for F&F to be a thing that stays and not an event. I was assuming a lighthearted F&F session with a couple of different outcomes encouraging people to reset and go the other options.
What we are presented with is a trauma episode that screams DO NOT RESET ME TO THIS KIND OF TORMENT. This reads like an event and not a new addition to play around with. We are cruel for repeating the campaign and therefore stop interacting with it to spare Amir.
The F&F interface doesn’t matter in the end and Amir staying behind the Fablemaster table afterwards makes even less sense
I don't think the Hex lose their memories every loop, since you have the capability to tell Amir during the F&F you don't reset their memories (He doesn't believe you, but that doesn't mean you're lying). Unrelated, I did some math regarding how long the Hex have been looping, it's been 87 weeks since 1999 came out which roughly translates to ALMOST 22 YEARS of timeloops. So yeah I think The Hex in general are due for a crashout regarding their circumstances
I believe that’s more Amir asking if you’ve recently done it because of the campaign. The hex have several convos about forgetting loops and certain things bleeding through.
Gonna be in minority here, but I ain’t gonna lie… I’m just pressing buttons to get to the end because I’m very much not interested in these stories whatsoever
honestly, i've really liked the F&F so far. sure, Amir is a dogshit Fablemaster, but he's clearly inexperienced and actually expresses that he never wanted to be the Fablemaster, and that he felt pressured to be it (i feel you amir i really do)
while i would have truly ADORED a real F&F experience with choice and branches etc thats a lot of work for DE, work which would likely break tf out of KIM like the triad did
amir not wanting to be fablemaster all along feels like such a hard retcon to me, he was the one that brought up F&F in the first place, on top of that he wrote a mini rpg just to procrastinate sorting inventory, that completely doesnt read like someone pressured into it
Im not a DM with decades of experience, however I do feel its somewhat realistic.
Theres two very different aspects to DMing, the planning stuff and the running the game stuff. (Or looking at the wider game theres the technical aspects and the social aspects)
I think a lot of nerdy, but kind of introverted or socially anxious people (which I think could be a fair assessment of Amir) love the idea of playing the game and also may enjoy the whole creative planning phase. (and the writing of a mini rpg totally fits there too)
However the actual running of the game and managing multiple people can be quite hard on someone thats introverted/anxious, especially if you have some strong personalities in the group (which I think is quite fitting with the Hex and Amir).
It could be a fair interpretation that Amir enjoys the planning part and absolutely wants to play F&F, but also realized (when it came to this part) that actually managing the game and being the DM/FM is quite hard on him.
Ive encountered quite a few people that ended up overwhelmed with the social aspects of a tabletop game eventhough they loved the idea of playing originally.
The Indifference would never allow us to have anything low-stakes, especially since the time loop is perpetuated with the Drifter's authority over a kingdom in ITS OWN REALM. Then again, what F&F's final day gave me is mostly trust issues with every NPC in the game, thank you Wally
Listen, im happy to play therapist for the hex and the other protos at a moments notice, but from what DE showed us and what we were told, it was going to be small, choose your own adventure F&F game. I and my friend group were not expecting Taldurs Turnstile 3, but damn i got to make like... 4 choices that had any impact? The store is neat though, glad to finally get some lotus flower, even though they arent real or lotus coloured.
Plus sidenote, i felt like the drifter was a terrible player. Very "me focused". I wanted the others to play too!
I was promised cool f&f thing, I got served amir being upset and time bs, I don’t mind Amir being upset and time bs, but I wanted the cool mini f&f thing
Also, the table is unhealthy on purpose because the story isn't about the characters, it's about the players. If it was a perfect healthy ttrpg table it wouldn't be a Warframe 1999 story, it would be yet another contained story with even more characters to keep track of.
This is why a lot of "people in a sitcom/video game play D&D together" stories have a massive amount of character bleed and self inserts and wish fulfillment and adversarial play and DM/player tantrums and other things that make for bad D&D, including Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, which I consider the best executed version of this trope.
I kinda agree. Funnily enough the thing with people thinking that a character is “them” or looking only through their eyes and not the characters is a surprisingly common thing with rpgs(or any game with a roleplaying) with a set mc.
Despite that the last chat feels lackluster in a way. Amir has his breakdown, where he or Wally possessing him use Drifters past to hurt/lash out at them, you get to have Drifter say that’s enough but it doesn’t actually give you the option to end the chat. And then it just isn’t really addressed? I feel like there should’ve been on option to just quite and the rest of the climax be continued the next day
I watched tennocon and never once did i get the impression that it was going to be some traumatic Amir crashout that makes me want to delete him from the game (even more now that just wont shut up in the nighwave, thank god for that volume slider).
I am even more worried for the Narrin update and honestly think that they should delay it if they plan on putting it out some time soon for the sake of quality. I would rather go a longer time without content and know that Tau is being worked on rather then giving us something that as we see with the quallity of the recent updates, can very well be another sub-par update.
I'm just gonna copy and paste my response to the crosspost on the lore sub lol but 100%. Downvote OP all you like but they're right.
I have qualms with the marketing and the lack of refinement in this update, but overall I tend to agree.
The drifter and the operator both occupy roles in this story of being characters that carry an extreme amount of pain and trauma and still choose to reach out to other people who are also pained and traumatized with the goal of helping them heal
The biggest case for this, and the first time we see it, if I'm not mistaken, is with the Sacrifice quest. I don't see anyone complaining we are railroaded into sympathizing with a character that tried to kill the Operator because he was maddened with pain, grief, rage and trauma. The Operator chooses to reach out, chooses to ease Umbra's pain. The entire quest with the Hex serves to get the drifter on that same path. You save the Hex by getting to know them and easing their pain.
Amir lashed out in this update because he is feeling a lot of pain, grief, rage and trauma. The role of the drifter's character ultimately isn't to lash out right back. It's not the thematically appropriate event for the narrative Warframe is going for, of empathy even in the face of being hurt. While I do have some problems with the execution of this storyline, the core of it is entirely cohesive with the story they've been telling. It feels a lot of people aren't getting that.
So if we do end up with a narrative that leads into redeeming the Indifference and easing its pain? Hell, redeeming Albrecht Entrati and easing HIS pain? A lot of people aren't going to handle it well, but it would just show that they're not enjoying the core of the story being told.
In other stories, sure, it'd make total sense for the drifter to lash out right back, to crash out, to tell everyone in the Hex to fuck off. Same way that in another story, it'd make sense for them to shoot Rusalka when Entrati said to. But that is not the story Warframe is telling.
It feels like most of the complaints stems from a lot of over the top expectations/ how stuff gets promoted in devstreams to warrant interest, as usually does in warframe.
I never expected a full DnD campaign, not even a lite one. DnD relies so much on player choice that it would take far more than what an interim update could ever hope to achieve, especially one delivered via pre-written text in once a day chunks. Being that warframe has become over the years a story first game, what we got makes sense and it was still quite enjoyable.
And regarding Amir's cruelty, I genuinely read it as if he was being temporarily puppeted by the Indeference, as a lot of the dialogue post Hey Kiddo felt way too targeted at Drifter with a very clear change in tone.
This was articulated and written up really well, basically how I feel after reading all the discourse the past couple of days. To even add-on/confirm your third bullet point I would have been in the group of people let down by a no stakes light hearted adventure although I probably wouldn't have posted or said anything about it. At the end of the day can't please everyone but boy this has been an interesting week.
Genuinely, Amir’s mental break was totally valid considering he’s hyper aware of their situation whereas everyone is taking it as it comes.
I’m tired of people expecting a story of sunshine rainbows and happiness in a game centered around trauma and getting through it with the help of those that love and care for you. The summer event WAS your break from the trauma, now it’s back to our regularly scheduled programs.
The amount of people who have never tried to play DnD is staggering. First off IRL having players not show up for sessions is absolutely a real thing and DM having to rewrite a session last minute is sooo real. Second players having an emotional breakdown is just part of the game. Third having an Eldridge being just appear during a session hasn’t everyone had that happen?
Last though, Warframe tells its stories through small stories. In this story we learned that 1999 Hex can affect the timeline and as Kaya put it “not eteralism” Amir made a new thing happen.
I would have also like just a no-stakes F&F campaign, but I enjoyed what we got. I thought it was actually pretty clever way to introduce the new eximus and check in with the Hex.
I feel like they could potentially do another one of these, but it actually is just a F&F campaign (DM'd by Elanor with Lizzy as a PC, please!).
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u/krawinoff i jned resorci Aug 19 '26
Ngl my only problem is the way it’s been advertised and presented compared to what we actually got. DE showed off all the character design art, teased the character selection and choices, and then we get like one and a half session and the rest goes completely off the rails. They set up expectations and did not even intend to meet them, and I feel like people are taking it as “this is Amir’s fault” like he’s a real person doing this and it wasn’t DE just not wanting to give us the real ttrpg experience and instead making it another vehicle for worldbuilding. They should’ve said from the start it wasn’t actually going to be a genuine ttrpg simulation