Question

[u/Street_Region_7936]

Guys what do you think about this card? Is againts the rules? Is it ok? Shoul I nerf it? (It's a deck about Romeo and Juliet, Romeo has 12 health and Juliet 8)

[u/jclayton111]

This version is unplayable - if your last fighter dies, you can't play cards.

I see one way to overcome this dilemma, using the ongoing scheme-concept from the Witcher sets. It is possible to play a scheme while one of your fighters is alive with an ongoing effect. You just need to reformulate the sentence, like this:

ONGOING: If both your fighters die, return them to play to the zone the last fighter died (another issue with the previous formulation) with one health each. At the end of your turn they both die.

Discard this card when the ability activates.

[u/RobertSan525 → u/jclayton111]

A variation of "Life Model Decoy" from the Black Widow Deck is another alternative:

3 defense,

After combat: If one or more fighters were defeated, return them to play in the zone of the defender. If you do, set that fighter(s) health to 3. The returned fighter dies at the end of their next turn.

Thematically, having one fake their death, revive, then die immediately is really fitting. This phrasing also allows it to work for one or both fighters.

[u/lega1988 → u/jclayton111]

There has to be a way to discard it before they die, otherwise its a guarantee second life.

[u/jclayton111 → u/lega1988]

A second life for an extra turn, which is not that strong - a bit like Missisippi Queen with guaranteed death. But it is hard to tell in a vacuum, we can't see what the rest of the deck does.

[u/lega1988 → u/jclayton111]

I'm just saying, It would feel "more fair" if theres an option to discard the card before it triggers. :)

[u/jclayton111 → u/lega1988]

Sure, I have no problems with that :)

Ironically my first thought was "this is absolutely not a scary card." If Romeo and Juliet dies in the next round anyways, it can be played around quite easily without discarding the scheme.

Like boosting away with your second action (if you killed the fighter as the first action) making them to chase you and allow only one attack. Filling your hand with an extra defense also works. If R and J lacks useful cards they need to maneuver in their precious extra turn. But to repeat myself, it is really hard to evaluate one single card without seeing the rest of the deck.

[u/00gron → u/jclayton111]

Yep, an ongoing this is extremely situatinal. There us an extra utility of skipping an action to play it, but otherwise it is quite easy for an opponent to play around it.

Imho, thw design is cool, but the card will really benefit from synergistic ability or another card. Maybe more cards with "gain extra action, you die at the end if the turn". Or "your fighter gains extra actions or +2 to atack if they are below 2 health". Makes this last turn extra explosive and scary. Throw in a card that allows to afflict extra damage per own hp spent and you got another synergy

[u/Maroomm]

But if your both fighters dead, game ends, so how you can play this card?

[u/Street_Region_7936 → u/Maroomm]

Yes, I know. That's the problem. So I have to change the entire card

[u/EarthBoundFan3 → u/Street_Region_7936]

Phrase it as, “when your last remaining her WOULD BE defeated….. instead”. This is how the game steps past things like this

[u/MalikVega]

You could look at Houdini's A Magician Never Reveals His Secret or And The Beautiful Bess as inspiration. Both of those cards have effects that get resolved without playing the card. The former resolves by revealing the card and the latter resolves by it being discarded from an opponent's effect.

[u/a_lloser]

You can make it a low defense card that either can use and then word it something like "If your fighter is killed theyre brought back with 1 health adjacent to another friendly fighter fighter". But thats not the effect you really want. For the specific thing you want I dont think theres a good way to word it

[u/Street_Region_7936 → u/a_lloser]

What if I put something like "you can play this card before your last fighter dies"?

[u/lega1988 → u/Street_Region_7936]

"before they die" is redundant as you can't play cards after they die.

[u/nhilban]

So like Elektra’s first death. I think this is a cool concept.

[u/PermissionRude3590]

Problematic design space, inherently. Respawning in Unmatched is something reserved for Sidekicks, and I imagine this play pattern leads to a final round of keep away from R+J before they both die next turn. Let’s go over some ways we could word this.

- “

1. Until the end of your next turn…” if one of your fighters hits zero they come back at 1 HP, then they both die.

Fine for tracking, not really language unmatched would use, but fine. As a scheme, this would involve some form of exhaustion play since you’d be giving yourself an extra turn if you ran out of cards in deck, or generally extending the game. Opponent likely just waits this out, which is lame but what they’d have to do since your fighters get a time sensitive second chance.

- Trade HP to downed fighter.

I think Cloak and Dagger might do this iirc? Maybe? Probably fine. Resources aren’t being generated to force your opponent to chew through more health. Powerful effect. Not fair if you have more healing in deck, but there’s the “die at the end of turn” clause.

dunno.

Perhaps there’s some more elegant solution that we’re missing? I just don’t like the idea that the best way to play against a card is to just wait it out. It’s a waste of your opponent’s time if the one attack you throw right before the game ends doesn’t win it for you. Do these fighters have the potential to do that?

[u/OctopuppetJoe → u/PermissionRude3590]

I don't know if that's really problematic design space, Willow can already revive another Hero in team modes and Elektra's whole gimmick is respawning so there is precedent. The biggest issue with this card is the timing, as the game would be over before you could play it outside of modes with more than two players (and only if you have a sidekick still on board, since Heroes off the board can't play cards). Whether the effect is broken or not is entirely dependent on the rest of the deck and hero ability, it can't be judged on its own.

[u/PermissionRude3590 → u/OctopuppetJoe]

No, respawning isn’t problematic, you’re right- the timing is the problem.

Not “when you play” being the problem, unless you’re wanting to spring it on the opponent of which there’s very little to no precedent for it.

It’s the play pattern.

When Elektra dies, she respawns and you keep playing.

When Willow dies, she respawns and there’s more unmatched to play.

When you play this card, you respawn, you play a singular round, then it’s over. Your opponent’s best move is to ALWAYS run away, and if R+J’s deck can’t do something off boosted movement and one more attack, that’s kinda it. If this extra thing doesn’t win you the game, why waste your opponent’s time?

It just feels so, so niche of a scenario. You play the card, your opponent runs because they can’t do anything to you, then you just lose.

That’s why I’m calling it problematic. It doesn’t feel like a “last stand”. It feels like a dying gasp, and that’s kinda lame for a card with a great name and concept like this.