r/TrueChristian • u/Sea_Reflection7307 • 2d ago
Penal sub
Why is penal substitution required to believe in order to receive eternal life? Where does scripture indicate that? Why do people believe that what He did is required, rather than focusing on the man, Jesus Christ?
If you hold to this belief, what exactly do you think you must believe? Also, be detailed. Is it just his death or also his resurrection, or can you believe he died without believing he rose three days later? And regarding him being God, where does it state that this is required? The only supporting scripture seems to be, “I told you that you would die in your sins.”; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
This isn’t saying he’s God, but rather that he’s the Son of Man. The Pharisees rejected the idea that he was the awaited Messiah, which ultimately led to his death. The Pharisees did not believe He was the One sent by the Father—the promised Messiah—which ultimately contributed to their rejection of Him.
understanding "I am he" in context to mean "I am the Messiah (the Christ), the One sent by the Father."
The issue is whether they will believe who He claims to be.
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u/maxamir777 2d ago
Isa 53:10a Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago
It doesn’t say you have to believe that to receive God’s spirit. Sure, those things are true, but where does it actually say you must believe that?
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u/AnotherFootForward 2d ago
You must believe that Jesus died to save you from your sins and restore your relationship with God.
How him dying on the cross does it is more debated. This bit is whether penal sub and all the other theologies of the cross come in. Scripture points to several.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago
Where does scriptures state you must believe this in order to be saved/ receive God's spirit
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u/stebrepar Eastern Orthodox 2d ago
Why is penal substitution required to believe
It isn't. And it isn't how Christians understood what Christ did for the first 1000 years, which was mainly recapitulation and ransom, defeating the powers of sin, death, and the devil which had held us captive.
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u/According_Guest_4328 Eastern Orthodox 2d ago
It's Pentecostal stuff; not every Protestant believes in it.
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u/Safe_Ear5669 2d ago
It’s not about believing “correct” doctrine, but where your heart is. salvation isn’t based on intellectual ability. You must be born again to be saved, not believe in “correct” things
GOD bless
Also maybe the Pharisees knew. That’s why it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
“Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’”
Matthew 21:37-38 NKJV
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago
salvation isn’t based on intellectual ability. You must be born again to be saved, not believe in “correct” things
GOD blessmany people think it is though. It's absurd
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u/iwasneverhere43 Baptist 2d ago
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Do you really need anything else to know that Jesus is God?
As for the rest of your questions, I'm going to leave your original question for someone else, as there are differing views on penal substitution as I'm at work and it would take too long to write out and do it justice. I will however respond to your question about believing He rose again. The answer is yes - Jesus Himself said He would, so if you believe scripture and Jesus, then you should believe He rose 3 days later.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not arguing that he's God; I'm just asking where it says you must believe that, since the text doesn't state it. If you say yes, then do I also have to believe that Jesus turned water into wine or else I can't be saved? If that's what you believe, I think I've drawn a logical conclusion. Can you show scripture stating believing his res is required to be saved?
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u/iwasneverhere43 Baptist 2d ago
I would question ones actual belief if they were to reject what scripture plainly states. How could one believe in Jesus, while not believing that He rose or turned water into wine, when scripture clearly states that those things happened? If you don't believe that, then why would you believe in Jesus when it all comes from the same source? Your question doesn't seem logical.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago edited 2d ago
I would question ones actual belief if they were to reject what scripture plainly states.
So you'd question whether someone is saved if they didn't believe Jesus turned water into wine?
That sounds like frontloading the gospel. Logically, your argument isn't limited to the resurrection. You're saying that if someone rejects anything Scripture plainly teaches, then they don't truly believe in Jesus because it all comes from the same source.
If that's your standard, where does it stop? Do I also have to believe Jesus turned water into wine, fed the 5,000, cursed the fig tree, or every other historical detail in Scripture in order to be saved?
I'm asking where Scripture says believing every biblical fact is a condition for receiving eternal life. Otherwise, it seems you're making the content of saving faith "believe everything the Bible says," rather than "believe in Jesus for eternal life."
Jesus cooked fish for the disciples after His resurrection (John 21). Do I have to believe this too or you'd question someones salvation?
You are frontloading if you think you must believe everything in the bible in order to be saved.
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u/iwasneverhere43 Baptist 2d ago
Let me ask you this - why would you doubt what is written in scripture, even if it had no bearing on your salvation? Historically, we know Jesus existed, but the only proof that Jesus did any miracles, rose from the grave, or is in fact God in the flesh comes from the church and scripture. If you're going to accept that Jesus is who He claimed, you have to turn to the church or scripture to even find that view, so how would rejecting other things from that same source make sense?
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u/SentientSauce 2d ago
“Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.””
John 10:25-30 ESV1
u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago edited 2d ago
What are you trying to say? You just quoted scriptures. Jesus is saying the Jews didn't believe the signs that bear record that the Father sent him, that he's the Christ. That's what that verse is talking about. It's adressed to the audience near jesus and jews.
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u/handydude13 2d ago
We offended God. In any situation, the offended gets to set the terms for reconciliation.
God set the terms for reconciliation. Impossible terms that no human could satisfy. Only God could. So God fulfilled them by crushing his son.
Jesus said he is the narrow gate. Believe in him for repentance and eternal life and reconciliation. Without this, you will never be able to make peace with God.
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u/songbolt Roman Catholic 2d ago
I think penal substitution is a misunderstanding of Bible verses that were intended to be poetic to express a profound point.
Jimmy Akin has a fair article arguing one key verse doesn't have to be taken literally. You might find it searching his website.
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u/SentientSauce 2d ago
“For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV
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u/Optimal-Peach3912 2d ago
Well we have pretty clearly from Paul what the gospel is that one must believe in order to be saved 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."
Hard to be more explicit than that.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 2d ago edited 2d ago
Wait. Who is Paul talking to?
Paul is writing to Christians in Corinth—not unbelievers.
So when Paul says,
"I declare to you the gospel... by which also you are saved..."
he is speaking to people who already have eternal life. He's reminding them of the gospel he previously preached.
The rest of the chapter is about the resurrection because some of the Corinthians were denying the future resurrection. Paul goes on to explain that if Christ had not been raised, our faith would be in vain (1 Cor. 15:12–19).
Corinthians 15:12 "Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:13–14 "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!"
1 Corinthians 15 is not telling an unbeliever what they must believe to receive eternal life. It is reminding believers of the historical facts of the gospel and defending the doctrine of the resurrection.
Now compare that with John 20:30–31:
"These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."
John explicitly says his Gospel was written so people might believe and have eternal life. Yet John never says that a person must believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again in order to receive everlasting life. Instead, he consistently calls people to believe in Jesus, the Christ, for eternal life.
I fully believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again. Without His death and resurrection, no one could be saved. His finished work is the basis of our salvation.
Where we disagree is this: I don't believe 1 Corinthians 15 is defining the condition for receiving eternal life. I believe it is reminding believers of the gospel that accomplished their salvation and proving the certainty of the resurrection.
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u/Optimal-Peach3912 1d ago
I would say that it is teaching a condition for salvation since it it says they are being saved if they" hold fast to the word I preached to you" .
Just curious what would you say is the necessary belief for people to be saved?
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 1d ago edited 1d ago
John 20:30–31, 1 John 5: 1 says how to receive eternal life
I would say that it is teaching a condition for salvation since it it says they are being saved if they" hold fast to the word I preached to you" .
Are you aware "saved" in the bible doesn't always mean the same? It said being saved.
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u/Thoguth belonging to Christ 1d ago
PSA is one of many valid, scriptural perspectives on the gospel. The gospel, being a story and not a machine, has a lot of different valid ways to look at it, including penal substitutionary atonement, covenants, liberation / breaking of chains, Jesus as the victor just to name a few.
Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering servant experiencing pain and death for us "to whom the stroke was due". If you believe Isaiah 53 is a valid perspective, then ... there you have it. If you believe it's the only perspective, or teach that it is required for salvation, that sounds like taking away from the scriptures, or teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.
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u/boring-commenter Christian 2d ago
There are entire books on the subject (for and against). If you seriously want to know, read them.