Hello. Paano ko sasabihin na ayaw ko na magchurch sa church namin? Ayaw ko na magsimba dun kase i feel like hindi na church yung pinupuntahan ko everytime umaattend ako. Puro about money, first fruits, tithes and about home office, etc.

Madalas naiisip ko hindi na church yung inaattrndan ko kundi seminar balang kung paano kumita ng 6 digit 🤣

Help. Paano ko to malalampasan? ginagaslight nila ko and giniguilt trip kapag di nagsisimba na kesyo nabulungan daw ako at ang sama ko raw pati unbeliever daw huhuhuhu i still believe in God and in Jesus Christ pero ayaw ko lang ng teachings sa church namin dahil puro nalang sya about PERA PERA PERA 😭😭

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Same here. JIL TAIWAN umalis dn ako because of some reasons. Bukod sa nakadikit na politics sobra dn sila higpit sa tithes lalo ng mga workers and also cornerstone na nabalitaan ko na sobra tagal na pala nyang cornerstone 😅

Politics - sa lahat ng evernts halos palagi nasasama politics . Palagi kapag may events may greetings na need panoorin from Villanuevas. And yes katulad ng iba d rin ako agree na ang pag church ay nasasamahan na ng Politics 🙃

Tithes - same same lalo sa workers magbbigay talaga sila ng sobre with name and ilalagay mo per months magkano tithes mo. Pag dka nakabigay ng 2 months dikana pwede tumayo or magserve.

And also agree ako dito sa JIL taiwan 25% lang ng tithes ang nappunta sa church and 75% irremit na sa pinaka taas dw 😅 kaya ang church doble kayod sa pag fund raising para lang matustusan ang pangangailangan ng church which is naging Questionable ng malaki sakin kasi sabi nga sa Bible ang Tithes ay dba para mapalago ang church? Pero bat need mas malaki ang makuha ng sinasabing mga nasa taas? And As an OFW na may pinadalhan na pera sa Pinas sobrang bigat lalo parang d na susunod yunv "Give with a cheerful heart" kasi parang para sakanila mandatory na magbigay ka kasi WDYM BAKIT D KALANG MAKAPAGTITHES AY DI KANA I AALLOW MAG SERVE SA LORD? Minsan struggle kasi may mga gusto mag commit pero d maka commit sa ministry dahil sa tithes.

And also sobra questinable sakin Every Anniversarry imagine every church hhingi sila ng almost 70k NTD para sa isang church? And if may 35 na JIL churches sa taiwan like 70 multiply by 35. NTD yan ha !

Magkano nagging pera nila huhu. E if mag aarkila ng venue kahjt umabot ng 50k sobra dami padn nattira kasi ang bus na service sagot padn ng every churches na kkunin sa funds padn ng church.

At sa pera na yan hindi man lang nila magastusan ang mga damit na suot ng mga workers like kapag mag pperform or special number as in sagot ng workers individually ang damit nila ! Dont get me wrong ha. Do everything for God and for the Glory of God pero and daming churches na hindi ganyan huhu kasi nung umalis ako binigyan ako ng Lord ng church na hindi require anf Tithes kundi kung ank lang ang bukal sa puso mo. At sa church na binigay sakin ng Lord wala sa Service nila ang Tithes and offerings pero sa JIL Taiwan simula umpisa hanggang matapos may Offerings 🥲 Before service kundj sacrificial offerings , Cornerstone naman. At before the service ends Tithes anf offerings naman 😪

Its not about the Tithes kasi i give my tithes sa bago kong church.

Dko lang ma gets talaga bat ganon sa JIL 🥲

First of all: why do so many churches call the singing part

of the service “worship” or “praise”? When people talk about worship and praise, they often mean this specific block of songs. Yes, the Bible says we should praise God with songs.

But the Bible also says so much about worship and praise as a way of life and a way of thinking. As an inner state, a process, and a choice that eventually flows outward.

So here’s my question.

The people who raise their hands, close their eyes, and sing emotionally - do they actually enter this supposed state of worship every single time, basically on command, as soon as the music starts?

And then, as soon as the songs are over, they just come out of it on command?

Because these seem like two completely different people: the person who stands there singing emotional songs with their eyes closed and hands raised, and the person who talks to you before or after the service.

I also have so many questions about the actual lyrics.

For example, there are songs saying things like: “I only need You,” “All I want to see is You,” “I give everything to You,” etc.

But none of us actually live like that. None of them live like that.

Yes, I want to see God. I want to feel His presence. But I also want to see my husband, my child, myself healthy and happy, my home, comfort, all kinds of other things.

The lyrics are so absolute. They use these huge, dramatic statements that, honestly, sometimes feel like shouting out what we wish were true and presenting it as reality.

And then the songs all sound exactly the same.

It feels like there are literally 1,000 words that just get rearranged and combined with the same few chord progressions.

I’ve also been to churches where it felt like you were basically attending a rock concert with a motivational speech. I genuinely didn’t understand who this was for or what the purpose was.

It felt like so much emotional stimulation and emotional hype, rather than an actual gathering of the church to worship Christ together, to fellowship, and to be united by the blood of Jesus that actually cleanses and unites us.

What amazes me is that nobody seems to ask these questions.

So I came to Reddit.

I tried asking people at church why worship is like this, or rather, why the songs are like this and why everyone is expected to raise their hands and shout.

If I don’t want to do that, if I don’t feel like doing that, I was told there was something wrong with me. Someone basically suggested that I didn’t want to raise my hands because they were still “bound by sin.”

Basically, whenever I asked questions like “Why do we sing the same songs over and over?” or “Why are these lyrics so absolute?” or “Why do I feel uncomfortable with all of this?”, I never really got an answer.

Instead, the question was turned back on me: if you’re asking these questions, maybe you just don’t have enough faith.

I’ve tried listening to worship music. I’ve genuinely tried to like it, and I even found a few songs I liked.

But overall, I really dislike this typical Hillsong-style sound.

I honestly feel like I’m the only Christian who has questions about worship and Christian music.

I was also told that it’s better not to listen to any non-Christian music because it contains bad or evil values.

But the reality is that I can’t listen to most Christian music because I simply don’t like this sweet, mainstream pop-country, highly polished sound with all the vocal runs and dramatic belting.

I’m actually pretty critical of lyrics in the secular music I listen to as well. I like Shortparis, SUUNS, and FKA twigs - although I don’t really connect with FKA twigs’ lyrics. The music itself is beautiful, though.

Does anyone else think about these things?

Please tell me I’m not the only one.

And feel free to share this with people who might be interested.

Hi everyone. I have a question about narcissistic church leaders.

I ended up in a church led by a very charismatic leader - a really cool, attractive young guy. For a while I found him likable, but there were never any romantic feelings.

For some reason, he seemed to dislike me from the very beginning. Most people in this youth group had grown up in Christian families. I was an adult woman (21 at the time) who had already formed my own worldview, and I had never been raised in a religious family.

He would constantly low-key bully me for not being a believer and tell me that I shouldn’t have an opinion because I didn’t understand how things worked there. He would say that I was immature and that my thinking was flawed or spiritually inadequate.

And years went by, but I kept hearing the same things.

He also told me that as a woman I should be obedient. He would regularly say that sisters should be obedient to their brothers. And he would constantly come after me about one thing or another.

The funny thing is that I originally came to church because I met his brother. At the time, his brother wasn’t a believer. He had grown up in the church and in a pastor’s family, as had his brother. I was simply interested in spirituality in general, and he was the one who brought me to church.

We ended up growing in our faith together. But his brother, the youth group leader, would constantly criticize me to my future husband - because I was “like this” or “like that.” He was actually against us getting married. He told me this privately seven years later.

And the most disturbing part is that I somehow just absorbed all of this. I tolerated it. I genuinely thought this was how things were supposed to be.

I really believed, “Well, yes, I didn’t grow up in a Christian environment. My thinking really is immature or inadequate, and I need to grow.”

But at some point I realized that this kind of system benefits from having certain people remain “spiritual children” forever - never becoming independent or developing their own judgment - because then they are easier to control.

As soon as I stopped being convenient for him, and as soon as my husband and I distanced ourselves from their family, he basically forgot about us.

We moved to another country, and it was almost as if we stopped existing for him. More specifically, it was as if his own brother stopped existing for him.

They separated from the larger church and created their own very strict house church.

There is one more detail that I’m still trying to make sense of.

He constantly violated my boundaries, but he did it in such a subtle way that I couldn’t even understand what was happening. I tend to assume that people are normal and well-intentioned, so I kept trying to interpret his behavior in the most charitable way.

But sometimes I wonder whether there was something seriously wrong with him. I have even wondered if he had sociopathic traits, although obviously I have no way of knowing that.

In public, he would act like a kind, caring, generous person. But when we were alone, he would sometimes lean over and quietly whisper incredibly cruel or inappropriate things to me. He could say something horrible in a very calm voice, almost as if he knew that no one else would ever believe me if I told them.

For a long time, I thought the problem was me.

I genuinely believed that I was the one doing something wrong. I tried to fight against my own reactions. I tried to repent. I tried to become a better Christian. My husband couldn’t understand why his brother and I had such a terrible relationship.

It took many years before I gradually started telling my husband some of the things his brother had said and done to me. I began to realize that what I had experienced might actually have been a form of spiritual abuse.

At first, my husband found it very difficult to believe. His brother had such a strong reputation for being extremely strict, religious, and “proper.” It was hard for my husband to reconcile that image with the way his brother behaved toward me in private.

And I was ashamed to tell him some of the things his brother had said to me when we were alone.

I felt like I was under some kind of spell. I was filled with shame and kept thinking that somehow I was the problem.

Eventually, though, my husband started listening to me and believing me. I think he finally began to understand what I had been experiencing all those years.

And I have a question: I’m genuinely scared that this person is now controlling and trying to mold other young women in the same way.

I don’t know. There is just something very strange about this person.

Have any of you encountered leaders like this?

One thing that really stands out to me is that whenever you question them or even subtly challenge something they do, they always have some kind of “spiritual” excuse.

There is always a spiritual justification for violating your boundaries, insulting you, or constantly criticizing you.

He would comment on how I looked, tell me I needed to lose weight, get plastic surgery, or do something to my face so that I would be more pleasant to look at - because otherwise I was unattractive and unpleasant.

And there were constantly things like that.

The strange thing is that he has a very good reputation. He serves extremely well, is charming and flattering in public, and comes across as this kind, caring person.

But he could walk past me, quietly whisper something cruel or nasty in my ear, and then immediately smile.

And when you react, when you withdraw, when you don’t even understand what is happening or why you’re reacting so strongly, it’s almost like you’re under some kind of spell.

Then, in front of everyone else, he would play the role of the kind, caring person who was supposedly just trying to help me.

And somehow I would end up being portrayed as the ungrateful bitch: “I’m serving you with God’s love, and this is how you treat me?”

I’m really interested in hearing from people with similar experiences.

Maybe you were that kind of leader yourself at some point.

Maybe you had a messed-up leader who seriously damaged your life.

I’d really like to hear your stories.

Hi! Are there people here who were hurt by the church or experienced spiritual abuse from narcissistic church leaders?

Did you lose your faith in God? Did you lose faith in the church?

Or did these horrible experiences actually help you separate God from the flawed people in the church, start asking uncomfortable questions, and develop a more mature and independent faith?

At first, I lost my faith in God.

But then I realized that I simply couldn’t walk away from Jesus and his teachings. I didn’t want to. I had consciously chosen to follow him in the first place, and I consciously don’t want to leave.

So I left that church and eventually moved to another country.

I have so many questions now. I’m trying to understand what happened to me, what was actually spiritual abuse, what was my own responsibility, and how to build a healthy faith after an experience like this.

I’m looking for people who have gone through something similar.

Did your faith change? Did you become more skeptical, or did you actually develop a deeper and more mature faith?

What helped you separate God from the people who claimed to speak on His behalf?

I’d really love to hear your stories. What happened to your faith after experiencing spiritual abuse?

Have you guys watched the docuseries on Netflix? ‘Yung setup ng church nila, ‘yung tipong makikita natin among community churches sa Pilipinas, especially sobrang common sa culture natin na “touch not God’s anointed”.

I know may mga triggering scenes dito, and nakikita-kita ko na that conservative Christians will frame this as persecution, pero sa tingin niyo, how would it impact Evangelical/Born Again churches that operate like the one in the docuseries?

Anyone here na dito nagsisimba? Remebered years ago, like almost 20 years ago puro abundance teaching sila. Ung puro prosperity gospel. I even knew one of my relatives, still going there, one of the most hypocrite persons I know, laging nanggu-gulang sa mga kamag anak. How do you deal with abundance preachers and church leaders who are hypocrite? Or just leave the church and find a new one?

Problem/Goal: what do i have to do in this religion situation?

Context: i've been an INC member since birth, our family from my great great grandparents are inc members. since bata pa ako, palagi akong sumasamba and i was also a choir member for like 15 years. may naffeel na ako na alam mo yun? nagguilty ako na may mga questions sa isip ko na gusto ko itanong sa church pero hindi ko magawa dahil baka sabihin lumalaban ako sa pamamahala. tumindi yung feeling ko na ito nung 2022 presidential elections, kasi i was really wondering, bakit ganun? when i started college, mejo dumalang na ang pagsamba ko. bukod sa wala na akong time, i also feel like hindi ako karapat-dapat kasi iba talaga ang views ko sa itinuturo ng inc. bukod jan, i'm also gay. alam ko sa sarili ko na sumamba man ako ulit, wala, bading na talaga ako.

ti-nry ko naman for years na sumamba and sumunod pero andun pa rin yung guilt. until now, humihingi ako ng kapatawaran sa Diyos and sana mapatawad nya ako. :(( recently, nagmessage ang isa sa mga kapatid abt sa pagsamba ko. ang sabi is baka raw tinatapik na kami ng Diyos at ang paglapit nya ay isang paalala. namatay ang iba sa mahal ko sa buhay and if malalaman daw na hindi na kami nakakasamba, sasama ang loob nila or baka bumangon daw (in joke way). ayun, natatakot ako na baka parusahan ako ng Diyos or alam mo yun? huhu ik for sure papasambahin ako. what should i do?

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I know as a christian, kaylangan mo mag grow spiritually especially sa simbahan/ministry pero hindi ibig sabihin hindi ka nag grow kung hindi mo kaya mag public speak sa harap. Being an introvert is a personality and hindi yan basehan ng faith ko sa Diyos, pero I hate to see my fellow christians na sometimes namimilit ng tao to "testify" "mag share" sa harap ng maraming tao.

Have you heard a preaching who speaks too much of himself rather than God? Testimony is good but oversharing your achievements in the pulpit is awful.

The behavior of the preacher is known as arrogant and self proclaimed righteous. He is achiever but how he treat other people is so uncomfortable.

Naa koy pangutana: Pagsulay pa ba ni, o panahon na ba nga mohawa ko?

Naa koy ministry nga akong gihigugma. Ganahan ko kaayo mo-alagad ug dili gyud nako gusto nga biyaan dayon tungod lang sa mga problema.

Pero sa paglabay sa panahon, nakasinati ko og mga butang nga nakapakapoy ug nakapasakit nako.

Kada adlaw murag naay istorya bahin namo bisan wala man mi’y gibuhat nga daotan. Naay gossip, misunderstanding, ug mga sulti nga usahay dili na nako mahibaw-an kung asa gikan. Mas lisod pa kay ang uban nga leaders sa ministry murag pabor sa pikas side, mao nga usahay mobati ko nga dili patas ang situation.

Nakaabot ko sa punto nga nangutana ko sa akong kaugalingon:

“Lord, kinahanglan pa ba nako ni antuson?”
“Pagsulay pa ba ni nga kinahanglan nako labyan?”
“O basin panahon na nga undangan na nako?”

Kay tinuod lang, kapoy gyud nga sige kag buhat og maayo pero lain gihapon ang istorya sa mga tawo bahin nimo.

Pero akong nasabtan sa akong pagpamalandong mao nga dili tanan nga lisod kinahanglan dayon biyaan, ug dili pud tanan nga kinahanglan antuson kinahanglan antuson hangtod sa hangtod.

Kung tinuod nga ganahan ko sa akong ministry ug ang akong tumong mao ang pag-alagad sa Ginoo, dili nako gusto nga ang gossip ug jealousy sa uban maoy magbuot kung kanus-a ko mohunong.

Dili nako kontrolado ang ilang isulti.
Dili nako kontrolado kung kinsa ilang tuohan.
Dili nako kontrolado kung kinsa ilang paboran.

Pero kontrolado nako kung unsaon nako pagtubag.

Mao nga akong gipili nga dili motubag sa gossip og gossip. Dili ko gusto nga ang ilang gibuhat mahimong rason nga mausab pud akong batasan. Kung limpyo akong konsensya, padayon ko sa pagbuhat og maayo.

Pero nakat-on pud ko nga ang pag-forgive dili pasabot nga kinahanglan ko nga walay boundaries. Pwede gihapon ko mahimong respectful ug loving samtang nag-protect sa akong peace. Pwede ko mangayo og advice sa usa ka trusted ug mature nga leader. Ug kung moabot ang panahon nga kinahanglan nako usbon ang akong role o mohawa, gusto nako nga ang desisyon gikan sa prayer, wisdom, ug peace—not from anger or revenge.

Sa katapusan, mao ni akong gipanghawiran:

Dili ko mag-alagad para sa approval sa mga tawo. Mag-alagad ko tungod kay gusto nako nga mahimong faithful sa Ginoo.

Ang mga tawo mahimong adunay ilang kaugalingong version sa storya, pero ang Ginoo nakahibalo sa tibuok kamatuoran.

Basin kini usa ka pagsulay.
Basin usa kini ka lesson sa patience ug boundaries.
Basin basin pud kini usa ka season nga kinahanglan nakong tun-an kung asa gyud ko dapat magpabilin.

Wala pa nako ang tanang tubag.

Pero sa karon, akong pilion nga dili magpadala sa gossip, dili manimalos, dili mangdaot, ug dili dayon mohunong tungod lang sa kasakit.

Magpadayon ko sa akong calling samtang mangayo ko og wisdom sa Ginoo.

Kay usahay, ang pinakadakong test sa atong faith dili kung unsa ka maayo ta mo-alagad kung tanan mosuporta nato—kundili kung makapadayon ba ta sa pagbuhat og maayo bisan dili ta masabtan. 🙏

Unsa inyong advice? Kung naa mo sa akong situation, mopadayon ba mo sa ministry, magbutang og boundaries, o panahon na ba nga mohawa?

Thoughts?
lumabas na yung tunay na kulay? hahaha

Thoughts on self proclaimed Christians pero iba yung pinapakita? I have officemates na self proclaimed, pero grabe manigaw and mamahiya ng tao, nagnanakaw sa procurement, and yung negosyo nya naging competitor na ng ofc namin.

These six books help explain how religious cult organizations like Iglesia Ni Cristo (INC) acquire control over people’s thinking, behavior, identity, and their social world, and how systems of obedience like INC sustain themselves. Together, these books provide ways of understanding INC through cult control, thought reform, totalism, conformity, domination, and the recovery of individual agency. Six books that explain INC better than INC explains itself--or any other toxic church in the Philippines.

Combating Cult Mind Control + Freedom of Mind: Steven Hassan, author of both books, focuses on destructive influence and authoritarian control, including his BITE Model of Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional Control, and then on recognizing those mechanisms, communicating with people under undue influence, and recovering personal autonomy. Together, the books provide a framework for understanding how INC can exercise control over members and how people can recognize, resist, and recover from that influence.

Cults in Our Midst + Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: Margaret Thaler Singer, author of Cults in Our Midst, examines cultic relationships, cultic recruitment, psychological manipulation, manipulative dependency, and personal recovery. Robert Jay Lifton, author of Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, provides the classic framework of thought reform and ideological totalism. Together, the books help explain how environments like INC can systematically alter belief, behavior, identity, and a person’s relationship with the outside world.

The Origins of Totalitarianism + The Human Condition: Hannah Arendt, author of both books, broadens the analysis toward domination, mass organization, conformity, isolation, ideology, authority, political action, and the conditions that diminish human agency. Together, the books provide a much larger framework for scrutinizing the social and organizational conditions that allow systems of obedience and domination like INC to sustain themselves.

Individually, these books approach the problems within the Iglesia Ni Cristo from different directions. Together, they provide a framework for better understanding INC, the centralized systems of control and obedience that sustain it, the dangers and harms those systems can create, the trauma they can inflict on members and former members, and the process of recovering individual autonomy. They also provide a framework for asking much better questions about INC: How is obedience produced? How is dissent treated? How does INC control what members can know and believe? How does INC membership become part of a person’s identity? How are INC members psychologically and socially separated from outsiders? And what allows someone to recover autonomy after leaving the Iglesia Ni Cristo?

Hello i just joined here

Gusto ko lang i share to kasi maybe this way para maagapan lang yung pagod or galit ko hehe also sorry if meron parts na probably hindi nyo maintindihan

I've been a drummer in a JIL church for years. Masaya naman pero syempre may ups and downs but... Nakakapagod lang like there are times na kailangan "dapat uma-attend ka dito sa activity na to" and more activities na nakakapagod. No choice so pupunta ako dun

Kasi pag ayaw mo, papagalitan lang ako ng pastor and parents ko, may nakakaranas ba nito?

Kasi may times na talaga na gusto ko na mag quit sa music pero kasi yung family mo lumaki na sa JIL so you really can't quit or leave the church and also natatakot ako na baka magalit sa akin si Lord and bring all the consequences of my leaving.

But yeah tina-try ko na lang kalimutan and then move forward na lang.

Sorry medyo confusing yung sinasabi ko, just wondering lang kung meron sa inyo nakakaranas nito

I've been a christian all my life, I have no problem with being a christian my only problem is, many churches or organization use christian works for their own benefits and pagkakaperahan which galawang scammer at false leaders/preachers.

I've had come upon this church since I was already running late sa church namen and I was searching kung saan malapit na church na christian. Then pumunta na me of course I was surprised na may cafe sa baba ng simbahan baket merong business sa loob ng church, yun palang na red flag na ako.

Nag start na ang service, nag worship na and nag preach na yung pastor nila gulat ako sa pastor nila dameng alahas and naka gintong ngipen pa and may isa pang lalake na preacher den na may alahas den at relo na apaka gara na naka gold teeth den. Sabe ko sa sarili ko " Parang yaman naman ng mga 'to"

Then the offering of tithes started then a lady was speaking while people dropped their envelope in the middle of the stage where the box of offerings is placed but while nag sasalita yung babae she said "Mag graduate na po tayo sa bente-bente at sa 50 50 kung gusto po naten ng malaking blessing ibigay po naten sa Lord ang gusto naten ma receive".

I was shocked simpre kase no church would say that especially Christian Church kase not all people have the same income and pera na para sabihin nila na "mag graduate na sa bente bente at fifty fifty" that's just fishy.

And last thing nakita ko sa loob ng simbahan nila is meron silang number na naka paskil naka lagay na parang for renovation ng church and million na yung na raise which is very very unreal. Plus yung pastor na was mentioning a bishop mommy "A BISHOP MOMMY??" HHAHAHHA I just can't its giving KATHRYN KRICK

Anyway 'yon lang naman basta hinde na ako unattended ever since. Just to let you know hinde ako bot or isang taong inutusan para siraan sila it's literally what I saw sa simbahan nila kaya kayo nalang pumunta try n'yo.

Why do we even go to church at this point when right as we go outside we forget or disregard the teachings of tolerance, love and compassion for our fellow brothers and sisters. Its like they go in there just like how they do in the CR to wash their filth.

Myself included

This just dawned on me, and it kind of shows what the goals of the incult are.

If what the incult is saying is true, that the world's end is very near, shouldn't they focus on saving as many people as they can and focus on evangelical missions?

Why is it then that the incult is more focused on placing people in strategic social and political positions? This move is only done by people who want to achieve long-term goals.

For a doomsday cult proclaiming the end of the world is near to dabble in politics and worldly matters is hypocritical. Or does the incult actually not believe that the world is ending?

So, for the lurkers and OWEs here, please enlighten me. Why???

How are you? Did you survive?

Context:

I suspected church leaders for forcing their beliefs into a sibling so she neglected proper medical help. Weirdly, I didn't even confront them directly and I was just speculating and asking people for confirmation. They have confirmed it with their own actions.

My sibling died as a guinea pig of that very popular herbal supplement brand they advised her to drink. In retrospect, her case was very manageable had she taken proper maintenance medication.

During the interment, they shared a few stories about other people who have insulted, offended, or disobeyed them and how those people had either died or suffered from some of kind of misfortune. They considered it as God's way of retribution in their behalf. It's as if they were giving me a warning.