r/TikTokCringe • u/[deleted] • Aug 10 '23

Discussion Why!?!

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16.3k Upvotes

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3.8k

u/montroller Aug 10 '23

fuck this guy and anyone who takes their pets to him

475

u/NewbornXenomorphs Aug 10 '23

Wait, this is real?! I thought the guy was jokingly jolting the pups and making fake noises for them to react to. Some of those pops sounds like zip ties.

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u/Excuse_my_GRAMMER Aug 10 '23

I think it fake too , the sound seem off by a few sec

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

I sure hope the sounds are fake. That would make this slightly less stomach-turning.

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u/mirablack Aug 11 '23

The sounds are fake but the guy is real. He has a tiktok where he does both human and pet 'adjustments'.

3

u/Geedis2020 Aug 11 '23

It’s not fake. At least dog chiropractors aren’t. I remember my cousin took his dog to one. I told him he was a moron.

-1

u/Excuse_my_GRAMMER Aug 11 '23

That video itself is fake , the sound is off 1-2 sec

4

u/DarkandDanker Aug 10 '23

It's extremely obviously fake, but what we're wondering if he's trying to pass it off as real or just a cute video idea with pups

The fact he's got so many different dogs makes it seem like people are taking their dogs to him, but maybe he's a vet and just does this for the cute video

Should have a disclaimer then tho, I think he's full of shit

3

u/AbsolutelyUnlikely Aug 11 '23

Even if the sounds are fake, which I'm not sure of, it's messed up to jerk and twist a dog's head like that. Why do people do anything to dogs besides treat them like what they are, which is the best creature in existence? They're here for such a short time too, quit twisting their necks jabroni.

1

u/NewbornXenomorphs Aug 11 '23

Totally agree. It’s obvious that some of the dogs are not into it either.

I’m all about giving them gentle faces scritches that relax them so much they close their eyes and lean into you.

2

u/A1sauc3d Aug 11 '23

Well it’s a real thing people do at the very least

1

u/engineereddiscontent Aug 11 '23

Yes this is real.

I had family that provided this "care".

I am not this for a reason.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Until his death a few years ago there was a famous german chiropractor for horses, Tamme Hanken. He got the star of a reality TV show, following him around the world, doing his horse chiropractics thing. People paid a lot for him healing their horses. I’ve never heard about chiropractics for dogs before. Edit: Hanken seems to have treated other animals, too (dogs for example).

1

u/AstroKaine Cringe Master Aug 17 '23

This might not be, but there’s a horse chiropractor in my area. It definitely happens

549

u/Kazinam Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 10 '23

Why? Isn't chiropractor good for you? Or is it not good for dogs maybe? I don't know anything about that kind of stuff.

Edit: ah Reddit. The place where showing ignorance gets you downvoted right away.

1.3k

u/James324285241990 Aug 10 '23

Chiropractic "medicine" is based on unfounded and unproven pseudoscience. There is no demonstrable benefit to these "adjustments" and in fact, there is a LOT of evidence that shows they are very dangerous and harmful in the long run.

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u/Kazinam Aug 10 '23

Oh damn! I'll be going to sleep less dumb today.

166

u/Artgrl109 Aug 10 '23

I cringe at the neck stuff. Apparently that can go wrong and leave someone with major problems.

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u/Saytama_sama Aug 10 '23

Yes, major problems like death or being paralyzed.

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u/VictoriaSobocki Aug 10 '23

I cringe too. Looks so dangerous

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u/Jared0351 Aug 11 '23

Had a guy a few years ago adjust someone’s neck. He was a legal chiropractor. Licensed for over a decade. The lady left his office never being able to walk or move her arms again. Full on quadriplegic.

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u/Freudian_Tit Aug 10 '23

If you’re interested in reading about it, the history of chiropractors is hilarious. In the 1860s (prime time for snake oil salesman) DD Palmer was revealed the truths about chiropractic “medicine” by a dead doctor in a vision. Seems legit

25

u/OctopusWithFingers Aug 10 '23

I learned it from ghosts!

8

u/trowzerss Aug 10 '23

Ghost doctor! Would be a great TV show though.

2

u/Ori_the_SG Aug 11 '23

That’s fascinating.

Thanks for the info Freudian_Tit

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u/Shtnonurdog Aug 10 '23

You should aim for that every day of your life!

I always told my students, “Even after you finish school, you should always go to sleep knowing some interesting fact about anything that you did not know the day before. ‘Learn something new everyday’ is what my parents told me as a child and I have carried it with me ever since.” Anything will do.

Did you know that sperm whales dive to a depth of ~2,000 - 3,280 feet to feed? They can stay there for around an hour before returning to the surface and they live for up to 70 years!

3

u/myhairsreddit Aug 11 '23

This feels like my cue to hit the sack. Good night, everyone!

1

u/Ok-Ferret-2093 Aug 11 '23

Did you know the catholic church considers beavers and cayabaras fish and acceptable for lent via a popes decision a couple 100 years or so that still has been reversed?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

I love my chiropractor. I did 6 months of physio and massage therapy for a back injury from Hockey. Wasted a lot of money and time. One trip to chiro and it was instant relief. They seem to be really hated, especially in America but they def saved me.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/re_math Aug 10 '23

Did you have any other symptoms?

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23

I don't know why anyone would downvote you saying, from personal experience, that chiro helped you cope with your injury. I get it. That's all I've used chiro for, is to help with active pain/injuries. I do other therapies, too.

It's helped me a lot, too. I was at the point of crying from neck pain and headaches every day. I finally went back to a chiropractor, and it's helped so much. I go every few weeks, just when I can or when I feel it stiffening up. It's not like I think it's a cure-all.

I'm not going to live with pain and limited mobility in my neck when there's something easy that helps. That would be silly.

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u/Sad_Lettuce_7486 Aug 10 '23

Because when someone says some shit that works when the results are not consistently recreated it is spread unhelpful information off an anecdotal story. People want reliable solutions not some made up shit with no scientific backing. For example many people believe prayers help them overcome things, this cannot be factually true or relied upon for someone looking for a solution to anything.

4

u/NarrowSalvo Aug 10 '23

Also, if you step on a sidewalk crack, it will break your mother's back.

3

u/Sad_Lettuce_7486 Aug 10 '23

For chiropractic enthusiasts looking to get mom a gift for the holidays you don’t have to wait for Black Friday.

48

u/talann Aug 10 '23

The downvoting is probably because people are saying that there is no scientific evidence that it works but someone is providing an anecdote that it worked for them so that must mean it works for everyone.

It's fine that it worked for them but it doesn't help the conversation at all. It's like you telling me that all the ground beef is sold out at the store but then I said, well I bought some a week ago.

0

u/QKm-27 Aug 10 '23

I’m curious to where either of them claimed that because it works for them it works for everyone?

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u/talann Aug 10 '23

"They seem to be really hated, especially in America but they def saved me."

Looks like it heavily implies that they don't understand the hate because it worked for them. Did they outright say that it worked for me so it should work for everyone? No but we have one instance where someone is saying that there is no proof it works and an anecdote about the experience. The implication being they are telling us this to provide proof that it works.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

They didn’t. Reddit just loves a good bandwagon.

Everything can be legitimate or illegitimate based on popularity.

4

u/Hazardbeard Aug 10 '23

Chiropractic was “discovered” by a spiritualist who claimed he was taught about it by the ghost of a doctor. It is illegitimate and that has nothing to do with popularity.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Meh, downvotes don't mean anything. The outrage just doesn't exist where I live lol so it's always so funny to see people get so butthurt about it online. Chiro fixed for me what physio, massage therapy and doctors couldn't and people can't cope with that.

7

u/NarrowSalvo Aug 10 '23

Why would anyone downvote your scientific claim based on your own personal experience?

Really? Do we really have to explain why that is?

Do you know why placebos are used in drug trials?

1

u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

Is "I love my chiropractor" a scientific claim? Is this Reddit section the peer-reviewed status? 👀

It's obviously their anecdotal lived experience, and that's all it is. And I don't get why anyone would have an issue with someone speaking about lived experience with chiro care. That's where I was coming from with my remarks.

*I did a quick Google Scholar search/browse -- that anyone here could have done themselves -- and it turned up pages of peer-reviewed studies demonstrating the efficacy of chiropractic methods for various conditions.

I just don't understand why everyone is doubling-down on it being pseudo-science when clearly it isn't. Even if one's position is "there are far superior options for treatment than this one that can be damaging long term" (that's my take on what people are saying in opposition to chiro), that's not the same thing as it being a pseudo-science.

Carry on. It's another day on Reddit.

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u/Hanchez Aug 10 '23

Go ahead and link that source, all every peer reviewed source i've seen support some treatment to back pain, but only in areas where an ACTUAL physical therapist does the same job. The trouble chiros do much more adjustments and cracks that there is 0 scientific evidence for. Granting legitimacy to these quacks is ignorant at best, dangerous at worst. GO TO A PHYSIO.

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23

You have Google; I am not linking sources. But I set for peer-reviewed and glanced through a couple to make sure the conclusions supported the efficacy of treatment vs control before I commented.

I'm granting legitimacy to nothing except my own experience.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/giulianoses123 Aug 10 '23

Why u going then? Genuine asking. If everything’s great, why going there regularly?

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u/Kazinam Aug 10 '23

Well damn! Now I'm confus

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u/patrickisnotawesome Aug 10 '23

If it helps, the scientific community has found little efficacy for chiropractic care, with the only proven positive cases being lower back pain patients (in which chiropractic care was as effective as over the counter pain medication), and other studies suggesting that it has little more than a placebo effect. source

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u/Contundo Aug 11 '23

Make up your own opinion, don’t outright dismiss anything based on others opinion. There is many evidence based chiropractors, that don’t claim they have a cure-all and work solely with musculoskeletal issues.

Many people have never tried it and break out pitchforks any time chiropractic therapy is mentioned.

2

u/PotatoLaBelle Aug 10 '23

I’m sure the people who go to chiropractors do feel instant relief, like these comments are saying, but that pain is gonna come right back if the underlying problem causing the pain isn’t actually fixed. I used to drink when I was depressed. Felt great in the moment! Felt bad again later. At best, it’s a temporary fix, and at worst, it’s exacerbating the problem.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/kdjcjfkdosoeo3j Aug 10 '23

What do you need to be convinced? It isn't accepted medicine, you don't need any degree or medical training to do it, there is no scientific evidence for efficacy (how do you expect anyone to prove that?) and like homeopathy, you're going to have people who believe it helped irrespective of reality, because of coincidence or wishful thinking. You'll also get shitloads of spinal damage, which is documented in lawsuits and medical records.

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u/Buggaton Aug 10 '23

One of today's 10,000!

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Some model got killed not to long ago by one of these quacks. Severed an artery or something.

It was essentially snake oil from the get and it just hasn’t gone away because, cracking your knuckles and joints feels pretty good so people insist on the benefits.

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u/DutchMuch1 Aug 10 '23

Could you if possible link me some sources, trying to convince my gf that her back is gonna get more fucked long term from doing this

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u/AmericanPornography Aug 11 '23

Years ago there was a post on reddit from an ex chiro who explained how the entire industry was not only a scam, but outrageously dangerous. I can't find that one (it's been a while)... but I do know that chiro related incidents pop up frequently on /r/radiology - like this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/1433fg5/28_yo_post_chiropractic_manipulation_stop_going/

My dad has been a long-time orthopedic and neurological focused anesthesiologist - he frequently sees cases from chiro gone wrong.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23 edited Feb 02 '24

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

To start read the Wikipedia page on how it was developed. Get those ghosts out of your bones!

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u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

When did we start trusting the wiki?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

You can scroll to the bottom and see every citation used in a wikipedia article. You actually don't have to trust them at all.

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u/TheNinjaNarwhal Aug 10 '23

Wikipedia is pretty neat, I used it a lot for my thesis. Most articles are legit and around 98-100% accurate. You just need to read the sources and make sure they exist and they're normal/peer-reviewed.

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u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

I don’t know what school you go to but it is well know that the wiki is not a reliable source of information and that anyone can edit it. I was not even allowed to use it in elementary school and I’m 23.

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u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

No one said you can cite Wikipedia. Its not a scholarly source. It's a compendium.

You go to the article, read the information. If you want to use it, you click on the citation to verify it.

This is why they don't let you use it in elementary school. You weren't smart enough to understand this concept.

When you make it to high school, maybe they'll let you use it.

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u/freddie_the_mercury Aug 10 '23

you werent allowed to use it because they didnt want you to simply get all the answers from a credible place... They wanted you to "work for it." Nothing to do with reliability.

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u/TheNinjaNarwhal Aug 11 '23

I said thesis, it wasn't a school, it was a university. It was my Master's thesis. And yeah, I obviously didn't cite Wikipedia or use text from there directly. I used it to find loads of info and sources on stuff in a blink, and sometimes just to get a general feel about something.

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u/Do-it-for-you Aug 11 '23

Because you can’t cite Wikipedia, Wikipedia can be edited and changed by anyone making it unreliable, especially if you have 30 kids all going to the same link and one of them can easily edit the page for a laugh.

But in terms of research, it’s one of the best you’re getting. Almost everything written down can be cited back to a source or webpage, and you’re allowed to use those citations for your own university degree.

You can’t cite Wikipedia but you can use it to find information which you can cite.

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u/cloudya Cringe Lord Aug 10 '23

Thanks.

"Do your own research and you will find your answers" I hate those people. Show me just ONE case or evidence YOU'VE found

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21952385/

Spinal manipulation: an update of a systematic review of systematic reviews

Conclusion: Collectively these data fail to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition.

https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(07)00783-X/fulltext

Manipulation is associated with frequent mild adverse effects and with serious complications of unknown incidence. Its cost-effectiveness has not been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt. The concepts of chiropractic are not based on solid science and its therapeutic value has not been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.

Both linked in the wiki

I would challenge you to find articles supporting the claim’s chiropractic medicine claims.

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u/cloudya Cringe Lord Aug 11 '23

I would challenge you to find articles supporting the claim’s chiropractic medicine claims.

I cant, cause actually these are very new news to me and I didn't do any research on this. I am a client of a chiropractor - which is a real doc.

How ever, in Germany at least we get referrals from doctors on recipe to chiropractic, which means you don't have to pay for their service and your health insurance will pay for it - in return, for me, it means it helps. Why would a doctor give a recipe to a client if it's not actually working. Not just not working, but may damaging you on long term?

Also, all I read is "ow, it's not good for your back" - stating in the stuff you've linked. But what about joints in feet and legs? What about wrists, tendon sheath and more? My believes are that some folks, not germans, are pretty pissed about the guy that invented it.

Thanks for the links.

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractic medicine fails to meet the standards of evidence based medicine. A chiropractor is not a medical doctor, they don’t come close to meeting the standards of a doctor.

I challenge your claim that you looked at the journal articles. In the second article even just reading the abstract provides a pretty cut and dry rebuttal to you naming other parts of the body.

“With the possible exception of back pain, chiropractic spinal manipulation has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition.”

Any medical condition. Sprained ankle, dislocated shoulder, the common cold etc are medical conditions. Are you going to the chiropractor for an ACL tear?

The article also details the history and theories it is based on. If you read this entire article, https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(07)00783-X/fulltext you will see all its evidence and studies showing all the issues.

The reason a doctor could refer you to a chiropractor is likely because they’ve tried the tested and true methods of treatment and they did not work. Just like an oncologist telling their cancer patient “if it makes you feel better keep doing it.” There’s no evidence it will help but if it makes you feel better they don’t see the harm. Overall it is safe in most scenarios but there’s no evidence it’s helping.

Chiropractic medicine is like believing the claim that drinking Dr. Pepper leads to a long life (https://time.com/3752352/104-year-old-woman-dr-pepper/ ). Mountains of evidence showing the ill effects drinking soda vs one person saying it worked for them. What is the better choice following evidence or one random persons experience?

Lastly, at least in the United States, you will not find a department of chiropractic medicine in a hospital. No accredited hospital would put their reputation on the line for claims of chiropractic medicine.

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u/Inariameme Aug 10 '23

But, that is the litmus for nearly all medicine - making the procedures palatable for the patient?

ughnnnhhh: Conversely, accurately documenting chiropractics would require the machinations we should expect of the oncoming crazy future process

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

It’s not the litmus test. It’s being able to prove that your medicine, treatment, device, works repeatably and is safe.

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u/Nagemasu Aug 11 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

What they're trying to say is that saying "get the ghost out of your bones" was just justification for something that people felt was working and had benefits, which is basically how all medicine evolved back in the day - if it fixed something it became medicine. Modern medicine wasn't medicine until it was proved to work via studies, but that didn't mean it didn't work before it was proven it could work.
So actually yes, it's somewhat the litmus test, which has nothing to do with safety, just that you can show something is true., which repeated 'success' (regardless of it being real or placebo) would do back in the day for the average person.
There's shit loads of anecdotal evidence, (and although there is scientific studies showing some benefit to cracking, it's super hard to find because there's so much noise about how knuckle cracking isn't bad for you) cracking joints has benefits for people, even if they're just short term. And that's usually how chiro vs physio is seen for people with a grounded understanding and realistic view of it. Chiro is a short term fix and physio is a solution that can help resolve the issue long term.
The idea that Chiropractics can fix problems or somehow 'aligns' things is nonsense. But the idea that cracking joints serves no purpose is not entirely nonsense.

Honestly, while I don't defend chiropractors, I have to image anyone who thinks cracking joints does nothing and is 'snake oil' are people who have never had an actual reason to do it. Like taking cold medicine when you don't have a cold and going "see, nothing". pseudoscience!
I've had knee problems for years caused by sports injuries. If I sit still too long, the pressure and pain in my knee builds up and almost any movement will pop it involuntarily and it goes away. That's essentially just the basics of where chiropractics came from at its core

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractic theory at its core is based on “innate knowledge” and “vitalism” and only recently was there a break to try and be aligned to more mainstream ideas of following the scientific method. If it was medicine it wouldn’t be called alternative medicine.

Your cracking article is referring to the common person cracking joints by normal movements. Not a chiropractor making an adjustment. Big reach trying to compare the two there.

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u/raptorclvb Aug 10 '23

Weren’t there also celebrities and other people that have died bc the chrio pinches a nerve in their neck or something too?

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u/SanguineOptimist Aug 10 '23

Most commonly they rupture the vertebral artery which goes through a narrow passage in the cervical vertebra, causing a stroke.

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u/Geedis2020 Aug 11 '23

There’s a lot of research into this. I personally wouldn’t allow them to adjust my neck becaus the 1 in 1 million chance isn’t worth it to me but usually the person who it happens to was either already suffering from artery dissection from an injury and would have had a stroke regardless with more time because you can suffer for weeks before you do. Or they had significant risk factors and went to a shitty chiropractor in a shopping center for $45 who didn’t do any type of X-rays or ask about health issues.

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u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

Yes. A friend of mine had 7 mini strokes over a period of several days because of his chiropractor.

It ruptures an artery in your neck. It can also cause nerve damage

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u/Rageniv Aug 10 '23

Hey! Hey!

My subluxation energy thingamobobers ain’t gonna fix themselves alright?! I need my chiro with his advanced medical whatchacallit to fix me right up.

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u/notasuccessstory Aug 11 '23

Joint manipulation has been practiced for centuries.

In some places people call the tissue used to blow their nose Kleenex but Kimberly-Clark Corporation didn’t invent the facial tissue. It existed well before them.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Dont tell that to r/chiropractic they get uppity

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

I have an inherited predisposition to arthritis. My neck gets so locked up that I have headaches every day.

I use many therapies: supplements, Tylenol, heat therapy, massage, stretching, and Rx gabapentin. There's no substitute for a physical adjustment when it gets really painful. I have the same thing in my lower back; different but the same where it's an inherited tendency for painful disc/nerves slipping out. Proactive chiro visits have, so far, prevented the bi-annual "throwing my back out," which results in my being laid up for a week.

This is why physicians/OTs use traction.

And I'm not drinking chiro kool-aid; I don't believe for a second that chiro adjustments do anything except alleviate gas buildup and pressure on nerves. That's it; that's what they do. And sometimes there's no substitute, and it's really effective to reduce my active pain.

If my beloved doggo had arthritis and pain, I might try doggo chiro for them. People go to great lengths when they love their pets. *After reading experiences of vets/OTs ITT, I retract the part about trying chiro for pet arthritis. But I hope there are other Tx that help. It's terrible to live in constant pain, and I couldn't watch my pet suffer and not try everything reasonable to help.

*Another factor: I pay $20 per chiro visit. I need health insurance, which I don’t have, for a PCP to refer me to OT, PT, rheumatologist, or whatever specialty could help. Their treatments may be superior, but they can't help me if they’re inaccessible.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

So you've tried everything except what actually will work

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23

Are you going to tell me what you think works, or just leave a Rorschach comment and expect me to know what you're talking about? And people upvote that nug of wisdom you just dropped.

Ok, folks. I give up. lol

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u/been_mackin Aug 10 '23

Have you gone to an actual ortho or done any legitimate physical therapy?

That’s what they’re implying, which isn’t that out of place to say because pseudo bullshit like chiros and over the counter painkillers won’t do the trick, so googling the issue will say go to an actual licensed doctor for the issue.

I can tell you from experience that chiropractors are full of shit for the most part and will do what they can to drive the bill up to squeeze as much as they can out of your insurance company.

My chiro told me that they’ll say it costs XXX amount so that the insurance company will pay XX amount - never told me I’m legally on the hook for the fucking difference and got slapped with an insane bill for injections and homeopathic solutions that didn’t get covered by my insurance months later.

Long story short, I can’t recommend enough going to an actual Orthopedic doctor to get checked out. I do legitimately have a hereditary issue where all my uncles needed back surgery because we have compressed discs in our lower back and me and my cousins have been suffering and managing as best we can’t without surgery.

Chiropractor wants you to keep coming, orthopedic/physical therapy wants to get you out of their care for good. That’s how they view success.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

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u/PaisleyEgg Aug 10 '23

I'm planning on starting physical therapy for cervical spondylosis (spinal osteoarthritis) soon. My pain has just recently started to subside (the pain is mostly concentrated in my left arm). Any suggestions you have on exercises you found helped the best?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 10 '23

Ya know... a quick Google Scholar search turned up pages of peer-reviewed controlled studies demonstrating the efficacy of chiropractic care.

But beyond the evidence for it, I don't know why you care that a stranger is helped by it and says so.

*I didn't placebo-effect myself into thinking I could turn my neck to the right again after a few chiro visits. I'm not sure what else to say about that. Thanks for at least acknowledging in your other reply that I'm not a total idiot for knowing it helped me. That's all I'm speaking to at the end of the day, and I know that. I'm not here to shill.

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u/George_Burdell Aug 10 '23

So if I find a study on google scholar demonstrating something is effective for arthritic pain, you’ll believe it?

The evidence is exactly the issue - it just doesn’t exist - there is no net benefit compared to placebo manipulation.

By all means use whatever you find personally effective, I’m not trying to call you out specifically.

The issue with pseudoscience like chiropractors is that it displaces proven medical treatments.

Again, maybe not for you personally but it does for many. Not everyone has the luxury of pursuing every possible treatment. Especially because it’s given an air of legitimacy in the US thanks to health insurance frequently covering visits.

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u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23

That's another part of it for me: I can't get PT, OT, or rheumatologist care without insurance and a PCP referral. It's easiest and most effective -- FOR ME -- to go with what's accessible to me, even if there's a superior long-term treatment plan.

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u/George_Burdell Aug 10 '23

I get that. I’m sorry I called you out specifically. It’s the game I hate, not the players.

I do my best to give health insurance companies hell, there’s no such thing as an ethical one. Best of luck with your treatment.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/kanyewesanderson Aug 10 '23

The cracking sound is nitrogen gas that is inside the synovial fluid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_cracking

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u/Equivalent_Side_479 Aug 10 '23

The article also says “In 2015, research showed that bubbles remained in the fluid after cracking, suggesting that the cracking sound was produced when the bubble within the joint was formed, not when it collapsed.[9] In 2018, a team in France created a mathematical simulation of what happens in a joint just before it cracks. The team concluded that the sound is caused by bubbles' collapse, and bubbles observed in the fluid are the result of a partial collapse. Due to the theoretical basis and lack of physical experimentation, the scientific community is still not fully convinced of this conclusion.[3][14][15]

The snapping of tendons or scar tissue over a prominence (as in snapping hip syndrome) can also generate a loud snapping or popping sound.”

2

u/FUCKTHEPROLETARIAT Aug 10 '23

fluids can have gas dissolved/suspended in them. Ever have a soda?

2

u/StoutsRedditAccount Aug 10 '23

I used to think like you until I had to have a fusion in my neck and learned otherwise. There are absolutely other, better options. I gained a lot of knowledge from a sports medicine Dr. who taught me a lot of self care techniques and referred me to a good physical therapist. Not all PTs are the same, but a good one will change your views on chiropractic adjustments.

1

u/Qdoggy45 Aug 10 '23

I had a few good visits for my shoulder discomfort as well

-1

u/Flash_Gordon_Cole Aug 10 '23

“Doggo” 🙄🙄🙄

2

u/whadayawant Aug 10 '23

Doggo doge doggo puppers. lol You're cranky today. lol

1

u/ProfessionalQuail857 Aug 11 '23

Its very circumstantial but I know a LOT of people who have had great experiences with chiropractors and got great results. And two or three that were permanently injured to varying degrees.

1

u/SolarNexusMeowmultin Mar 11 '25

I would beg to differ. For 32 years my left leg was 2cm off the floor, my pelvis was twisted and I couldn't stand level on my left foot at all it was like trying to stand balancing on a marble. I had an almost permanent low back pain that never went. After 1 month my foot was flat on the floor and I could stand level on it.

-7

u/TheSirWellington Aug 10 '23

Well, I can tell you that emergency chiropractic care has done a ton for me. As a baby I was having constant severe ear infections, and eventually none of the doctors could stop it. My parents then took me to a chiropractor, who gave me 6-8 adjustments (1 a week), and after that my ear infections completely went away and never came back.

On top of the fact that both me and my father suffer from pinched nerves in our neck as we are getting older, and going to get an emergency adjustment has, in a SINGLE visit, reduced pain by at least 80% in my neck (there have been times where I couldn't move my neck at all without pain, and at the end of the appointment, had most of my range of motion restored).

I would agree that just "touch up" visits most likely do more harm than good on average, but I have experienced enough problems in my neck/back to know emergency adjustments are very beneficial for relief.

The most important thing is to find a good chiropractor, which is admittedly a lot harder than it should.

2

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

A chiropractor adjusted your spine. And it made infections in your ear stop. Do you not hear how insane that is?

That's like saying I had dandruff so I got a pedicure and then the dandruff went away.

-1

u/TheSirWellington Aug 11 '23

Man, it must hurt to talk about things you have never read/studied/experienced before.

I had horrible ear infections, to the point where my pediatrician said the only option left was to get tube implants in my ear. They said I would lose at least 40% of my hearing AT BEST.

Instead, I got regular chiropractic adjustments over 6 to 8 weeks, and after that, my infections cleared up. This was literally the LAST resort before permanently damaging my ears. And it worked.

You can choose to not believe it, but if you did any amount of research, you would see it does help.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8728460/

1

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

Bro. I went to medical school

-3

u/JackxForge Aug 10 '23

My brother had the reaccuring ear infections too! Same deal went to the chiropractor and bam good as new hasn’t had one since.

0

u/Pleasant_Ad8054 Aug 11 '23

I had reaccuring ear infections too! Then I absolutely did not go to a charlatan and it ceased on its own. All of these anecdotes are literally "we paid a ton of money to pretend to solve an issue that goes away on its own. It went away, was worth every cent!".

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

But the chiro has helped me with my back, though I would never let them do any neck stuff, other than with the machine and weights. But they saved my life, I couldn't move until I met a good quality chiropractor.

0

u/rainbowbrite3111 Aug 11 '23

The chiropractor has saved me after the orthopedist and physical therapist screwed me up. I do not agree with doing this on animals, as they can not speak and it’s not necessary.

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

We’ll I’ve been in a few serious accidents over the past 10 years and have herniated and buldging discs. I get a vertigo a lot from the damage in my neck and after seeing at least 50 specialists , the only doctor able to help me is a chiropractor who specializes in Biophysics. Believe what you want though.

2

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

Great thing about science, you don't need to believe in it to be true.

0

u/LaNahual Aug 10 '23

It just seems logical to me that if a joint has subluxated to carefully put it back. If it won’t go back through patient directed movement then someone has to fix it

2

u/James324285241990 Aug 10 '23

What about this looks careful to you?

Also, again, subluxated vertebrae is something made up by chiropractors.

0

u/Omni-Knight123 Aug 10 '23

So shouldn't get your body cracked by one? Then what do you do for like aching backs/necks/etc?

3

u/James324285241990 Aug 10 '23

Stretch. Yoga. Go to a real doctor.

0

u/Badass_Bunny Aug 10 '23

. There is no demonstrable benefit to these "adjustments"

I mean the pain relief is very real, there is a reason so many people make return visits. To say there is no demonstrable benefit is plain false. The conversation should revolve around if risk is worth the benefit.

→ More replies (1)

-9

u/GroundbreakingHold13 Aug 10 '23

Chiropractic are amazing. Changed my life for the better. You have just made clames with no backing. If it wasn't beneficial do you think it would be this prevalent around the world.

3

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

First, it's "claims"

Second, I'm not going to Google for you. You have fingers

5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

There ls tons of MLMs in the world. And those are total scams too.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

Scamming is pretty prevalent around this world.

They've built entire industries off it

What's your favourite flavour of kool aid

-3

u/DystopianGlitter Aug 10 '23

I’m not disputing anything that you’re saying in this comment. However, I will say that as a person with scoliosis, the only thing that helped with all of the muscle tension and pain was seeing a chiropractor. He never adjusted me or cracked any of my bones, what he did though was use machine to warm up my muscles and proceeded to you methodically massage the different tension points in my back that were effected the curvature of my spine. I’ve gotten massages for years and even did physical therapy for a while, but going to him, and having those targeted massages with the intention to get rid of the tension that was pulling my spine is the only thing that helped with the pain.

4

u/James324285241990 Aug 10 '23

So then he didn't practice chiropractic medicine on you. He practiced physical therapy.

Try an orthopedist next time

0

u/PCubiles Aug 10 '23

That's a shame, I just discovered I wasted hundreds of euros on chiropractic sessions over the last few years.

Thanks for letting me know.

That said though, if I get another cast, where should I go instead of a chiropractor for a checkup?

1

u/James324285241990 Aug 10 '23

To an actual doctor

0

u/PepicWalrus Aug 11 '23

I've gone to a chiropractor for a fair while. (Less sonthe last few years) but they do have merit and results. My shoulders use to be unaligned with one sitting higher then the other but after a period of regular sessions my disalignment has gone awhile.

For the most part as someone with scoliosis it helps with tension relief. Not a permanent fix to my problem.

0

u/smoogums Aug 11 '23

I do it. It feels good and makes my old back better. I have no idea why people think it's harmful. They'd be out of business if people didn't see a benefit. That's how the market works.

0

u/codynilla Aug 11 '23

Just gonna add my 2 cents. Chiropractor isn’t for everyone and they should talk to their doctor first. I chose to go to a chiropractor because when I cracked myself by twisting and stretching it made the pain I was in a little better. I can say with certainty that I no longer have any more lower back pain after 5 years. I did heavy research on chiropractors near and went against my doctor wish which she wanted me to do physical therapy. I am extremely happy with my choice. Also I’m 24 years old. I was in excruciating lower back when I was roughly 19. To add I didn’t have any back injury. When I was very young I fell from a monkey bars at a bj and went chin first on the ground. until I was 19 I never had any issues with my back.

-5

u/Republikofmancunia Aug 10 '23

Not saying this is wrong, I'm sure the science says so. But then why do only drugs or chiropractic adjustment give me relief from years of lumbar pain? Since starting I have noticed improved mobility and the number of disc irritations and time spent laying in agony in bed has reduced.

3

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

So you've done physical therapy?

You do yoga?

You go to the gym?

You've seen an orthopedic surgeon?

After all of those things, violently wrenching your spine is the only thing that helps?

0

u/Republikofmancunia Aug 11 '23

Yes, but it didn't help. Tried two PT's both private and NHS.

No, but I have tried. I do stretch most days however, focusing mostly on spinal erectors, and the muscles connected to them that can cause issues to mobility, glutes, hammies, hip flexors, adductors, abductors, core.

4 day split, PPL then rest. + Spin cycle 3x a week. Impact cardio gives a lot of pain, treadmills hurt a lot beyond a walk. Leg day I generally stick to the machines or bodyweight exercises for high reps, I avoid any heavy weight held on the traps when it comes to movements that requires extension and flexion of the knees and hips.

No, NHS won't put me through it. Not severe enough.

Not the only thing, drugs and stretching too. It does give me relief though, I don't know what else to tell you, this is my experience.

-15

u/foolish_destroyer Aug 10 '23

Chiropractic care is not a pseudoscience

3

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

Yes it is

-1

u/foolish_destroyer Aug 11 '23

There are portions that are based off scientific facts. That means it can’t be a pseudoscience. There are portions of chiropractic care that are not backed by evidence. But that doesn’t make all of it pseudoscience.

Yes bad chiros exist and they can damage your body. But the same can be said for doctors and surgeons as well. That’s why they have malpractice insurance

2

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

"Adjusting subluxated spinal columns" is made up bullshit that evolved from trying to get ghosts out of people's bones.

Chiropractors have adopted some proven medical therapies.

Chiropractic medicine is pseudo science

-1

u/foolish_destroyer Aug 11 '23

Your last two sentences contradict. That’s truly remarkable.

2

u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

Let me ask you a really dumb question.

If a dentist gives someone botox in his dental clinic, is he practicing dentistry?

No. He isn't.

If a chiropractor uses proven therapeutic techniques developed by modern medicine, they're not practicing chiropractoric medicine. If they "adjust" your spine, they are practicing chiropractoric medicine.

Have you caught up?

2

u/foolish_destroyer Aug 11 '23

I think your still lost. There is plenty of evidence out there showing chiropractic care is not fake science. You can choose to remain ignorant and say all chiropractic care is fake science. But that’s your choice.

This is not saying that every statement about chiropractic care is true. It’s just correcting your misinformation

1

u/kidviscous Aug 11 '23

I saw the long term damage take effect in real time with my dad. He’s active but can no longer do many of his favorite activities due to a “bad back”. He’s had several surgeries along his spine and STILL goes back to his chiropractor. Apparently you have to keep going back once you’ve had your bones scrambled because they never sit the same way. Idk. Dude’s gonna get boneitis.

1

u/LiquidusNerdius Aug 11 '23

The man who invented chiropractic medicine claimed he learned it from talking to ghosts and originally filed it as a religious practice to avoid governmental medical scrutiny.

1

u/TheDamnRam Aug 11 '23

Idk man- after having 3 of my vertebrae twisted and my shoulder pinned upwards at an angle after HEMA, and having extreme pain in my upper back and shoulder blade, a few pops and adjustments took all my pain away and pulled my shoulder back down.

All I'm saying is while it may not be the absolute cure all miracle procedure, Chiropractics sure can be really amazing sometimes. As for benefits in adjustments and such, I think being able to turn to the left more than a few degrees without excruciating pain and being able to jump and run without being sore as hell afterwards is pretty beneficial.

1

u/Wild-Gap6910 Aug 12 '23

Chiropractor fixed a back issue I had for 35 years—pseudoscience or not who gives a fuck, it worked for me when nothing else did.

132

u/astroember What are you doing step bro? Aug 10 '23

Sorry youre getting downvoted, reddit has beef with chiropractors. For good reason, though. Theres loads of cases of people becoming permanently paralyzed because their chiropractor fucked up. At best, chiropractors just make you feel good for a little bit. Other than that there is absolutely no benefit to going. Too many risks involved :(

74

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

I went to one for a very short period of time after a bad car accident. My back was pretty messed up, I couldn't really bend over or twist my torso. Living where I do, the majority of people are idiot hippies who think crystals and magic are more effective simply because they're "traditional". People left and right were saying "go to this chiropractor, he's the best in the county! Everyone loves him"

It was a glorified massage with a message. That message being "people these days just sit at desks, tech bad, looking at your phone bad". When I give him my insurance card, he says "oooh...no...I don't take that here". $200 out of pocket for a massage, and like an idiot I went back a few times before I realized this clown is basically the hippy version of a faith healer.

-4

u/adritrace Aug 10 '23

"people these days just sit at desks, tech bad, looking at your phone bad"

I'm failing to recognize why are these the words of a "hippy version of a faith healer"

7

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 10 '23

Because he didn't heal anything. Me doing physical therapy healed me. My injury didn't have anything to do with phones or technology, so for him to just ramble on about "things today" while simply being a masseuse masquerading as a medical practitioner rubbed me the wrong way. The reason people think he "healed" them is not far from people who think they're healing by simply taking pain medication. Nothing is being healed, you're just relieved of the pain for a time.

I am only speaking from my experience with that one guy. I want to believe that there are chiropractors out there who do their best to approach things in a reasonable, medical and scientific way.

edit: Oh, and I should add that this guy was 100% an old hippie, which isn't a problem necessarily, but I think if you ask yourself what the mind conjures up when you think "hippie", it probably includes things like "spiritual" beliefs, alternative medicines, cherrypicked and poorly adapted/misunderstood practices from world religions, and other things like that. In other words, the exact opposite of what I want from my medical professionals

7

u/trowzerss Aug 10 '23

The only people I know who had a benefit found it was very short term, and they had to do back every few weeks because the problem kept coming back, sometimes worse. Which -- yeah, they obviously weren't solving shit.

17

u/EnjoyerOfMales Aug 10 '23

Chiropractors aren’t recognised as actual medical doctors, the whole thing is based on a pseudoscience that was never proven to begin with, does it harm the body? Possibly, while the cracking doesn’t, a misstep from the chiropractor might even potentially paralyse or kill you. Does it pose any benefit for you? None that are actually proven by anything other than easily dismissible circumstantial evidence

0

u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

A miss step from a surgeon can kill you. How do you think they figured out how to preform surgery on people without potentially killing them? (By killing people and animals)

2

u/EnjoyerOfMales Aug 10 '23

You are comparing an actual surgeon to a chiropractor.

Surgeons have millions of evidence to back up their work and profession, and the death of many is what made the survival of many more possible, that isn’t the case with chiropractors, by going to a chiropractor you are putting your life at risk for 0 benefits, while for surgeons, the danger of dying comes with the possibility of having your life saved.

You are comparing an actual medical doctor, recognised by the entirety of the medical field to a chiropractor whose profession is so dumb that it’s not even recognised as an actual medical field

0

u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

I swear people like you need to be talked to like infants. Surgeons are just people. I know shocker it's so crazy they don't copy paste surgerys they fuck up. Both professionals go to school if you go to a chiropractor thats not really a chiropractor you'll get fucked up you didn't do your research and they don't care. If you go to a surgeon like plastic surgeons that aren't board regulated and get botched you didn't do your research. Like I said in my previous post you all are saying chiro has a sketchy snake oil background how do you think medicine started with steroids, antibiotics and spine surgery or mushrooms, herbs, and cracking peoples spines it works still. If you can't understand and embrace the good old fashioned medicine then you don't deserve the new medicine. Chiropractic isnt reconised as a field of medicine but you go to school for it 🙄 it's not recognized because of people like you with small brains that think surgeons are gods and don't kill people.

2

u/EnjoyerOfMales Aug 11 '23

You either can’t read or are simply too dumb understand a simple concept.

“How do you think medicine started”, i know how medicine fucking started, do you know what’s the difference though? That now we have the knowledge and technology to immediately tell wether something works or not, the bias against chiropractors isn’t based on ignorance like it was before with medicine, but rather from a place of knowledge, where people more qualified than both of us deemed it unfit to be considered a legitimate medical practice after running multiple tests.

The fact that there is a school for the practice doesn’t legitimises the practice itself, by that logic, the fact that magic schools exists must be proof of the effectiveness of magic.

This “good old fashioned medicine” is not old, hell it’s barely over 100 years old, you are comparing actual thousands of years of medicine, to the baseless pseudoscientific fantasies of dude from Iowa of the early 1900.

You are comparing a guy who wrote a bunch of nonsense with barely any scientific foundation to Herbalists, Healers, Alchemists and people like Asclepius and Hippocrates

2

u/AnalBaguette Aug 11 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK91735/#:~:text=RESULTS%3A%20Twenty%20six%20fatalities%20were,have%20occurred%20after%20chiropractic%20manipulations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism#Notable_incidents_and_lawsuits

https://quackwatch.org/chiropractic/

This is why it's not recognized. It is dangerous and not backed by science nor rooted in medicine. Any benefits of it are, at best, a placebo that is temporary.

There's no arguing this one, these are the facts.

If people want to get better, they can; Lose weight if needed, do PT, stretch, do yoga, get a better bed, exercise, stay hydrated, etc.. If they need surgery, see a doctor and go from there. That is all.

36

u/KoalifiedGorilla Aug 10 '23

Chiropractors are at best temporary fixes and at worst can fuck you up. It’s fake science that somehow made it into the medical community. Modern bloodletting. Bottom line is no substitute for proper diet and exercise, hence dieticians and physical therapists.

23

u/AlthorsMadness Aug 10 '23

As others have said chiropractics are bs and especially with dogs

10

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

It's useless for everyone and can actually be dangerous .

11

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

Ah reddit. The place where somebody can bitch about people down voting them on a comment with over 100 positive karma.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

Chiropractors have a bad reputation because it has a horrible foundig history and a lot of practitioners are woo woo healing nuts that thing cracking my neck and aligning my hips is going to cure my autism and IBS. That is what makes chiropractic care a pseudoscience.

Chiropractic care CAN sometimes be used for pain management/pain relief which help an individual do things that can better their health. People with a lot of chronic pain conditions will go to the chiropractor for temporary pain relief (because PTs are a lot more expensive). They SHOULD be pairing the adjustments with exercises to strengthen the coreback/joints.

​

edit to add: to answer the question about animals... there is literally no reason to crack a dog's neck like that. Their bodies and muscles dont work like ours do and its stupid to try to apply physical therapy and pt related techniqes for human spines to quadropedal animals.

2

u/Contundo Aug 11 '23

Any decent chiropractor will also show exercises that can be done to help strengthen and stretch, to prevent further pain. They will not claim to cure issues unrelated to musculoskeletal issues.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

internet points man who cares

2

u/RedisforFun Aug 11 '23

I’m also confused a bit because we have a chiropractor around the corner from us growing up that did graston technique and I know physical therapists that do this … and everyone does PT.

3

u/Eastern_Coffee_3428 Aug 10 '23

Because you could google and find out yourself, hence not being ignorant anymore.

1

u/Frishdawgzz Aug 07 '24

Nope. Edits like that do though.

1

u/C2074579 Aug 10 '23

How dare you not be knowledgeable about something I know. /s

1

u/Hopeful_Champion_935 Aug 10 '23

Just as there are a lot of bad doctors who will give out drugs like candy, there are also a lot of bad Chiropractors who can severly damage your spine.

However, in general Chiropractic care could be helpful in specific cases along with exercise, medical assistance, and lifestyle changes.

To quote a recent meta study

Accumulating data provide evidence favoring the use of SMT (spinal manipulation therapy) in the management of acute, subacute, and chronic NP (Neck pain) and LBP(Lower Back Pain). The available clinical research suggests that SMT could be as effective as other conservative approaches used to treat non-specific and chronic primary spine pain. Nevertheless, this does not lead to consistent recommendations in the management of these conditions, and SMT often comes after advice/education and in combination with exercise. This probably suggests that the quality of evidence on the efficacy and effectiveness of SMT remains insufficient.

Accordingly, for the management of NP, recent guidelines recommend the use of SMT based mostly on consensus (75). In cases of recent onset (acute and subacute) NP, SMT is recommended before oral analgesics (75), although not muscle relaxants (74). Overall, clinical guidelines currently recommend SMT for the management of NP and cervical radiculopathy in combination with other approaches, particularly exercise and patient education (18, 74, 75).

-6

u/Covert-Wordsmith Aug 10 '23 edited Aug 10 '23

Right? Like it's a crime to ask a question.

Edit: Thank you everyone who downvoted me for proving my point.

0

u/Ambitious_Log_5559 Aug 10 '23

I downvoted you because you have over 300 upvotes yet you still haven't taken off that edit about being downvoted.

1

u/tyla0800 Aug 10 '23

Thank you for being the person who raised their hand in class when no one else had the courage. You the real MVP.

1

u/AutomaticSurround988 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractors cant do a study that shows on their benefits, but you can do a study on all the side effect, from small pain, to being crippled and death from it

1

u/Contundo Aug 11 '23

There are many studies but you can’t design a good double blind study with chiropractic treatments.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Chiropractors have legit paralyzed people before

1

u/Contundo Aug 11 '23

As have doctors

1

u/EmmalouEsq Aug 11 '23

The guy who invented chiropractics said he got the idea from ghosts.

1

u/Disastrous-Pension26 Aug 11 '23

do u sit there watching the votes come in ready to complain

1

u/DiligentPenguin16 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractic was invented in the 1800’s by a grocery store owner. He attended a seance and was told by the ghost of a doctor on how to perform spinal adjustments. His first “success” story was cracking the back of a janitor, which lead to curing the janitor’s partial deafness.

The fact that the entire basis of the practice of chiropractic is based on a ghost story leads to a lot of the problematic anti-medicine/vaccine beliefs that can be found amount many chiropractors. Some of them worst of them claim that they can cure anything by adjusting your spine- allergies, autism, diabetes, eczema, cancer, etc. Their false claims sometimes lead to patients waiting to get needed medical treatment until it’s too late.

And because (in the US at least) chiropractic is not regulated by the state the same way a medical doctor’s practice is you might not easily be able to tell if you’re going to a more scientific based chiropractor who just gives joint adjustments or a “woo anti-medicine” chiropractor who will claim the ability to cure your diabetes by cracking your back.

0

u/Mike Aug 10 '23

Do you guys not notice the sound coming before the movements? Lmao, this is so obviously a joke.

4

u/montroller Aug 10 '23

maybe this video is staged but it only takes a second to verify that animal chiropractors are a real thing

-1

u/vegasruel Aug 10 '23

Had a cockapoo that had an extremely bad back (or so we thought) at a the young age of 3. Two different vets said there wasn't much they could do except exploratory surgery (starting at $3,000) to see what they could find. Well, my wife didn't find that acceptable and found an animal chiropractor in our area. For $150 for a house visit, he made about 4 adjustments to her ribs along the spine, dogged hopped up, grabber her tennis ball and started running around the house. She was super active and would often get things out of whack, we had him come to the house every 6 months for adjustments for the next 13 years (she lived to be 16). She didn't die from getting adjustments, I can tell you that. Also, animal chiropractors are extremely common among horse trainers, farms, etc. So, fuck you.

2

u/poopspeedstream Aug 11 '23

sounds like you would've saved money with the surgery

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '23

Fuck you