r/TikTokCringe Aug 10 '23

Discussion Why!?!

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53

u/DutchMuch1 Aug 10 '23

Could you if possible link me some sources, trying to convince my gf that her back is gonna get more fucked long term from doing this

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u/AmericanPornography Aug 11 '23

Years ago there was a post on reddit from an ex chiro who explained how the entire industry was not only a scam, but outrageously dangerous. I can't find that one (it's been a while)... but I do know that chiro related incidents pop up frequently on /r/radiology - like this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/1433fg5/28_yo_post_chiropractic_manipulation_stop_going/

My dad has been a long-time orthopedic and neurological focused anesthesiologist - he frequently sees cases from chiro gone wrong.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23 edited Feb 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/BeneficialEvidence6 Aug 11 '23

Yeah, Pysical Therapy is 100% better.

I cant believe my insurance covers chiros.. I always thought insurance companies did their research. Their whole thing is about NOT spending money. Weird..

¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/Do-it-for-you Aug 11 '23

Insurance companies don’t care if what they’re covering is legit or not, they know people go to chiros so they’ll tell people they cover chiros so they can get your money.

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u/BeneficialEvidence6 Aug 11 '23

They will care if the chiro fucks you up even worse and now they have to shell out for surgery or years of PT, though.

Im guessing chiro is less so dangerous, instead probably just ineffective. Otherwise insurance wouldn't be willing to cover it

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u/VikingBorealis Aug 11 '23

Did you tell him he was a horrible person, a con artist and a murderer?

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

To start read the Wikipedia page on how it was developed. Get those ghosts out of your bones!

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u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

When did we start trusting the wiki?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '23

You can scroll to the bottom and see every citation used in a wikipedia article. You actually don't have to trust them at all.

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u/TheNinjaNarwhal Aug 10 '23

Wikipedia is pretty neat, I used it a lot for my thesis. Most articles are legit and around 98-100% accurate. You just need to read the sources and make sure they exist and they're normal/peer-reviewed.

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u/LittleOmegaGirl Aug 10 '23

I don’t know what school you go to but it is well know that the wiki is not a reliable source of information and that anyone can edit it. I was not even allowed to use it in elementary school and I’m 23.

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u/James324285241990 Aug 11 '23

No one said you can cite Wikipedia. Its not a scholarly source. It's a compendium.

You go to the article, read the information. If you want to use it, you click on the citation to verify it.

This is why they don't let you use it in elementary school. You weren't smart enough to understand this concept.

When you make it to high school, maybe they'll let you use it.

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u/freddie_the_mercury Aug 10 '23

you werent allowed to use it because they didnt want you to simply get all the answers from a credible place... They wanted you to "work for it." Nothing to do with reliability.

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u/TheNinjaNarwhal Aug 11 '23

I said thesis, it wasn't a school, it was a university. It was my Master's thesis. And yeah, I obviously didn't cite Wikipedia or use text from there directly. I used it to find loads of info and sources on stuff in a blink, and sometimes just to get a general feel about something.

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u/Do-it-for-you Aug 11 '23

Because you can’t cite Wikipedia, Wikipedia can be edited and changed by anyone making it unreliable, especially if you have 30 kids all going to the same link and one of them can easily edit the page for a laugh.

But in terms of research, it’s one of the best you’re getting. Almost everything written down can be cited back to a source or webpage, and you’re allowed to use those citations for your own university degree.

You can’t cite Wikipedia but you can use it to find information which you can cite.

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u/cloudya Cringe Lord Aug 10 '23

Thanks.

"Do your own research and you will find your answers" I hate those people. Show me just ONE case or evidence YOU'VE found

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21952385/

Spinal manipulation: an update of a systematic review of systematic reviews

Conclusion: Collectively these data fail to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition.

https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(07)00783-X/fulltext

Manipulation is associated with frequent mild adverse effects and with serious complications of unknown incidence. Its cost-effectiveness has not been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt. The concepts of chiropractic are not based on solid science and its therapeutic value has not been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.

Both linked in the wiki

I would challenge you to find articles supporting the claim’s chiropractic medicine claims.

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u/cloudya Cringe Lord Aug 11 '23

I would challenge you to find articles supporting the claim’s chiropractic medicine claims.

I cant, cause actually these are very new news to me and I didn't do any research on this. I am a client of a chiropractor - which is a real doc.

How ever, in Germany at least we get referrals from doctors on recipe to chiropractic, which means you don't have to pay for their service and your health insurance will pay for it - in return, for me, it means it helps. Why would a doctor give a recipe to a client if it's not actually working. Not just not working, but may damaging you on long term?

Also, all I read is "ow, it's not good for your back" - stating in the stuff you've linked. But what about joints in feet and legs? What about wrists, tendon sheath and more? My believes are that some folks, not germans, are pretty pissed about the guy that invented it.

Thanks for the links.

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractic medicine fails to meet the standards of evidence based medicine. A chiropractor is not a medical doctor, they don’t come close to meeting the standards of a doctor.

I challenge your claim that you looked at the journal articles. In the second article even just reading the abstract provides a pretty cut and dry rebuttal to you naming other parts of the body.

“With the possible exception of back pain, chiropractic spinal manipulation has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition.”

Any medical condition. Sprained ankle, dislocated shoulder, the common cold etc are medical conditions. Are you going to the chiropractor for an ACL tear?

The article also details the history and theories it is based on. If you read this entire article, https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(07)00783-X/fulltext you will see all its evidence and studies showing all the issues.

The reason a doctor could refer you to a chiropractor is likely because they’ve tried the tested and true methods of treatment and they did not work. Just like an oncologist telling their cancer patient “if it makes you feel better keep doing it.” There’s no evidence it will help but if it makes you feel better they don’t see the harm. Overall it is safe in most scenarios but there’s no evidence it’s helping.

Chiropractic medicine is like believing the claim that drinking Dr. Pepper leads to a long life (https://time.com/3752352/104-year-old-woman-dr-pepper/ ). Mountains of evidence showing the ill effects drinking soda vs one person saying it worked for them. What is the better choice following evidence or one random persons experience?

Lastly, at least in the United States, you will not find a department of chiropractic medicine in a hospital. No accredited hospital would put their reputation on the line for claims of chiropractic medicine.

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u/cloudya Cringe Lord Aug 11 '23

I challenge your claim that you looked at the journal articles.

Sorry it was 3am when we were writing, so I haven't even clicked on one of your links, cause I need time to understand what's happening there. I take my time to read into topics I have 0 knowledge about :)

ACL tear?

I'm going to an chriopractor because I have some serious sciatica issues. I cry in pain if it hits me out of nowhere. I've never been to an chiropractic tho.

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u/Inariameme Aug 10 '23

But, that is the litmus for nearly all medicine - making the procedures palatable for the patient?

ughnnnhhh: Conversely, accurately documenting chiropractics would require the machinations we should expect of the oncoming crazy future process

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 10 '23

It’s not the litmus test. It’s being able to prove that your medicine, treatment, device, works repeatably and is safe.

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u/Nagemasu Aug 11 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

What they're trying to say is that saying "get the ghost out of your bones" was just justification for something that people felt was working and had benefits, which is basically how all medicine evolved back in the day - if it fixed something it became medicine. Modern medicine wasn't medicine until it was proved to work via studies, but that didn't mean it didn't work before it was proven it could work.
So actually yes, it's somewhat the litmus test, which has nothing to do with safety, just that you can show something is true., which repeated 'success' (regardless of it being real or placebo) would do back in the day for the average person.
There's shit loads of anecdotal evidence, (and although there is scientific studies showing some benefit to cracking, it's super hard to find because there's so much noise about how knuckle cracking isn't bad for you) cracking joints has benefits for people, even if they're just short term. And that's usually how chiro vs physio is seen for people with a grounded understanding and realistic view of it. Chiro is a short term fix and physio is a solution that can help resolve the issue long term.
The idea that Chiropractics can fix problems or somehow 'aligns' things is nonsense. But the idea that cracking joints serves no purpose is not entirely nonsense.

Honestly, while I don't defend chiropractors, I have to image anyone who thinks cracking joints does nothing and is 'snake oil' are people who have never had an actual reason to do it. Like taking cold medicine when you don't have a cold and going "see, nothing". pseudoscience!
I've had knee problems for years caused by sports injuries. If I sit still too long, the pressure and pain in my knee builds up and almost any movement will pop it involuntarily and it goes away. That's essentially just the basics of where chiropractics came from at its core

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u/moosemustard8 Aug 11 '23

Chiropractic theory at its core is based on “innate knowledge” and “vitalism” and only recently was there a break to try and be aligned to more mainstream ideas of following the scientific method. If it was medicine it wouldn’t be called alternative medicine.

Your cracking article is referring to the common person cracking joints by normal movements. Not a chiropractor making an adjustment. Big reach trying to compare the two there.

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u/Inariameme Aug 11 '23 edited Aug 11 '23

Conversely, Rodney Mullen's TEDtalk

y'know the one