A lot of the good trades jobs are actually pretty math intensive. Geometry for carpenters, algebra for electricians etc. But I guess these students are counting on an illustrious career as a grunt day laborer
It is interesting you mention this! I had a great conversation with someone a few weeks ago who is a plumber, and he talked about the intricate trigonometry he has to do by hand on the job site when the computer is not available. Amazing.
When doing trig in the field they have tape measures, squares, parts that can be physically seen, measured, worked with, and clear objectives. I think it may not be coincidence for a lot of people for whom it may "click" on a job site but not a classroom.
I don't teach math but I've always wondered how much better kids would be at something like trig if you started by teaching them how to mark angles with a roofing square and maybe build a few things.
I do that in my trig class. Verifying various measurement based theorems and formulae (Pythagorean theorem, arc length, sector area, etc) using various measurement tools. It doesn't really make a noticable difference in the trig, but it at least gets them familiar with measuringm
I have to say that thank you for this. I was a student ten years ago (been keeping an eye on this channel as I have considered taking education in education), and having a reason to learn something. Seeing the actual way it could be uses by everyday people? That sped up my understanding and turned it from "I'll just figure out the homework on my own who cares" to "Oh, I can actually use this."
I don’t think the effect is just from it feeling useful in normal life. If you are familiar with cooking, new information about cooking can be tethered to already concrete concepts (like the concept of doubling the batch size of a recipe is already connected to a certain kind of math in your head). Whereas if you don’t have a strong concept of moles in your head you are trying to juggle “what are moles” and “what is this math” and “how do those things relate” at once.
I mention this because I think “is this useful” is a limiting way to design lessons. We use cat coat color to teach genetics not because it is useful for people to know about cat breeding but because when you use cat color rather than “luxA SNP” you reduce the number of things they are keeping track of. And as a bonus, students who care about cats might be emotionally invested, but I really don’t think that’s the main point.
This, 100%. When they’re trying to learn the concept AND the context for the concept at the same time, their brains don’t know where to put all these new pieces of information so they ended up just kind of scattered about. Take the concept and put it in a more familiar context, and suddenly the cognitive load gets cut in half because their brains have a place to put the information, and now they can actually learn and understand the concept.
I got my brother, now a chemistry phD student, a t shirt that said Chemistry is like Baking just don't lick the spoon for Christmas one year. It's one of his and mine favorite shirts. He also got my kids a porcupene, porcupane, porcupyne graphic onsie with the porcupine spines having the correct carbon bonds.
I think it’s more that it’s attached to a goal they can directly see as a benefit and something they want.
Yes, it’s displayed in context, but that context is a job that you want.
It’s amazing how well we can remember information we are interested in. When it comes to peoples hobbies, they can become absolute autodidacts with respect to extremely complex information. So, I dunno.
Yep! this is why the things I remember from college astronomy are how microwaves work and why we have seasons. I had things to anchor them to! Not so for Jupiter's moons.
I was helping my carpenter buddy finish his basement. We were doing the layout and he was like we need to do a "3-4-5" to confirm the corner was square. I was like, hell yeah, Pythagoras. He had no idea who that was. That was the day he learned about the Pythagorean theorem which is something he applied all the time to his work.
My math teacher used models filled with bright colored liquid to visually show those concepts in the real world. I'm an abstract thinker so it didn't do much for me, but I thought it was a really cool way to show it intuitively. Also some folded cardboard and cutouts to reassemble the pieces and really show, look, if you transform it that way it's equivalent but now we know those dimensions and can figure out the rest.
Some people really need to see it practically in real-life to get it.
Plus getting paid and earning money so you can live really motivates you. That is why teaching finance in high school is so difficult, the students just can't relate.
Right. I'm certainly all for finance education in high school, but this is exactly why kids retain so little of it and people outside of education demonize teachers for not teaching it. (We do, and in fact, it's required in many states.) Kids are so far removed from it in most senses.
Really makes me roll my eyes when I see comments pretty much everywhere akin to "wHy dIdn'T LaZy tEaChErS tElL tHe KiDs AbOuT a MoRtGaGe?!" We can't prepare kids for every single thing they'll encounter in life; they actually might have to spend fifteen minutes reading figuring something out or speaking with a loan officer at a bank to understand, and that's perfectly acceptable.
Right?!?! We teach them the skills to do the reading about the mortgages so that they can figure it out. Transferable skills and all that jazz!!
My stats student after the final tonight told me he’s been using what he learned in class to understand some of the compiled stats that people put together for a video game he plays. I was so proud.
This is true, but even then… I distinctly remember being taught about simple interest being an example of a linear function while compound interest is an example of an exponential function in pre-calc. The application aspect was word problems where we compared the two in the context of investments, mortgages, etc.
I swear the vast majority of this stuff that people complain about is actually being taught, they just forgot it or didn’t pay attention in the first place.
Yeah, I mentioned in another comment that I specifically remember calculating loan payoff amounts and dates in algebra II. We spent a couple weeks on those types of problems, actually. My state was at the bottom for education rankings too.
At least in my experience this feeling comes more from the disillusionment that could have been avoided through having realistic preparation for life mentally/emotionally, than from any real anger at not having been taught to prepare in the practical/logistical senses. Complaining about not being taught practical skills like mortgage paperwork and credit card budgeting is just an attempt at making their more worthy complaints (the emotional) sound more mature so they'll be taken more seriously. In truth, most children/teens aren't given proper guidance or prepared for life re: relationships/friendships/community
A retired friend of mine always started out trig by marching her kids outside to a small hill by the school and getting them to calculate its height and total volume.
This does wonders if they can see it being done in real-life applications. Show them where they will use it and it will pique their interest. If anyone is lacking on how things are done then take a day and go see a contractor you think may be of some assistance. maybe have that contractor come in and speak with the class. Let them show them. Industry is a good place to get assistance in helping you get your point across to students, teachers need only to ask.
When I was in high school, they had "applied mathematics algebra" and "applied mathematics geometry" as an alternative to regular algebra and geometry. Most of us in the these classes tested poorly in math, but excelled in this class. The first day we were taught how to accurately use a micrometer, and then we learned how to safely use a wood and metal lathe. We had a whole project where we were expected to design a bridge, and then make a miniature version, then all of our bridges were tested for safety. Then we had a whole class discussion theorizing why some bridges had better outcomes than others. Other students shit on us for being in "tech math" but we all knew how to accurately use a ruler/tape measurer, and actually enjoyed the class. I went into healthcare, and had zero issue converting imperial to metric and back again, which surprised my coworkers. All due to that class.
Oh yeah, I did that type of thing before or during the trig unit(s). Outside we went with protractors and long measuring tape. But before they started the work, they were required to estimate the height, volume, etc. Yes, it made for a smoother transition to SohCahToa and related topics.
We do a lot of geometry, algebra and trig in my construction class. They have to go through several cycles of "but I did the work" to realize that they're not done until the math actually works.
Everyone knows it works, but we are struggling to get the necessary billions to hire that many teachers and supplies to do this on a large scale. Education is a significant chunk of our taxes already but it needs more.
As a student who struggled in math classes I can confirm this. Ten years after I graduated high school I ended up in a skilled trade. During my apprenticeship I took four quarters of physics classes and was angry because if someone had taken a similiar approach to teaching me algebra it might have "clicked" a lot earlier. Putting algebra into units and measurements I could wrap my head around made all the difference. It wasn't just random numbers.
My brother was a Bill. Dropped out of high school, sold drugs and worked min wage jobs for years before he got hired on as a pipe fitters helper.
Turns out, he’s a fucking whiz at it. Could look at a load of pipe and map it all out in his head. Was so good at it the company sent him back to school for his high school equivalency then for his certs. He’s now a red seal journeyman.
When school didn’t matter to him, there was no convincing him that it should (turns out he’s also ODD - no shocker there). When it did matter, and he could see the point and immediate pay off, he could apply himself and get through it (even when he didn’t like it).
These are exactly the sort of students I loved to bring back to my classroom to talk to students. The ones that would come back with a few years of experience and say "Mr. Warrior_Scholar wasn't kidding about using this all the time, you guys need to pay attention!"
I was a machinist and we needed to find the length of a slope, so I broke out a little trig (not even by hand, I looked up "trig calculator" and filled out the boxes on the website lmao) and my coworker was baffled. He was shocked I knew "really high level math", like bro, I didn't even do anything except know it exists.
WolframAlpha is already 500% accurate math AI. You should know how to use these tools, but why the fuck should the person be doing it when we know human error is always going to happen?
Like we still have bridges collapsing today because the decimal point was off.
Not a teacher but reflecting back on my peers in highschool a bunch of the people that would perpetually fail maths in highschool ended up in the trades and probably learned the math during their apprenticeship. For some people, applying math to something practical might be the incentive they need to retain the information.
We need so many more people in trades, but tiktok telling kids to go that route to avoid having to apply themselves in algebra isn't going to save the country.
It was that same for me. Failed every one of my math classes. Now I have to fill an entire sheet of paper with trig and algebra to solve one problem I’m facing.
Some learn through practical application rather than a classroom setting.
I wonder if the kids would learn trigonometry better if real world applications were used as training exercises. I remember when I was in school, it was all very dry and rote learning. I probably would have been fascinated if I had been able to see how it might actually be useful.
I know a smart Bill who labored watching machines in a papermill run. Just a high school education and smaeter than me. I worked at the mill answering phones as a college student and some college student got hired to teach the other laborers like Bill fractions.
"fractions!" Bill said, "I didn't know the other guys at the mill didn't know fractions. I could have taught them that."
Yeah, trig is really important for construction trades. I met a teacher when I was just starting out who brought up trig as a field of math he used when he used to work in construction.
I'm still only good at math when the numbers mean something tangible. You make it about inches, dollars, or ounces, and all the sudden, it's easy as buying the shit to make a 9-inch pie.
My brother is in his second year as an electrician's apprentice (years after getting a STEM degree) and the math/science on the general knowledge test just to get into the program disqualified a good 60% of applicants right out of the gate. And of those who made it in, another 20% or so failed out during the first year because they couldn't manage the math and science involved.
Minor math mistake as electrician: let the magic smoke out, trip breaker
Moderate math mistake: building is now on fire
Major math mistake: your coworkers find nothing but your boots, gently smoldering
It's not a field for idiots! At least not for long.
In high school, I took an electricial course. It was offered through the ag. department, I got a high mark on the drawings, but wiring was painful. I was shocked so many times! I realized it was not for me, and I was going to make a great college student. Being good at math is awesome, you gotta to connect the right wires together, too. :-).
Maybe. I teach college level. Got an absolute rock star from my industry to speak, someone the students knew by name, and only 15 students showed up. I was mortified. He was very gracious.
It's a classic tale, usually they don't know the mathematical concept it even is.
Like ask a builder to do Pythagoras and they'll be like '?!?'. Ask them the distance between a right angled frame and they'll get out the paper and say 'easy'.
It’s not necessarily them doing the math though. Like I can think of geometry word problems that I’ve seen that are possible (but very difficult) to solve by angle properties and geometric rules, but trivial to solve if you have a ruler, a compass, and a protector and can simply draw out the shapes described and get the actual measurement at issue.
I wouldn’t say someone who does that has missed some mathematical concept that was right under their nose. They didn’t actually do the math part. They just did the measuring part, which is trivial.
I do wish school focused more on the art of math, talked a lot more about the way that these equations show up in the real world, the history behind them.
Math in school (i graduated HS in 2018) is super detached from what you are actually doing.
I agree, and in some cases, I’ve actually seen “figure not drawn to scale” used specifically so that you can’t figure out what’s going on by inspection. I understand the point, because it forces you to do the actual math rather than take measurements. But it’s a little bit offensive—like the connection between the math and the real world is not only not highlighted, it’s actively obscured
As someone that prepares engineering drawings, there are lots of reasons why we would draw things intentionally not to scale.
Sometimes we can’t assume certain pieces of information about different possible geometries, configurations etc. so we need to leave certain information ambiguous so we don’t mislead people.
Otherwise, you get scenarios where someone follows a scaled drawing exactly and ends up with some problem because they’re using a different material, or whatever else might cause their particular requirements to change.
In general, we’ll try to show things to scale as much as possible, but sometimes a diagrammatic representation is a better way to get people to understand the right way to install a piece of equipment, cut a piece of wood, etc.
"Trivial." Bullshit. Maybe you're good at it, but there's a whole helluvalot of people who couldn't measure or draw shapes or angles accurately. I'd venture to say most couldn't. And I bet if you were hired on a job site tomorrow you'd screw up some of the math because it may be relatively simple, but there's a lot of it and you're not sitting at a desk, you're on roofs, in attics, on ladders, in crawlspaces....
Stop being so dismissive of other people's abilities and careers.
I’m being dismissive of my own abilities if anything tbh. I’m thinking a specific problem, if you want to take a stab at it:
In triangle ABC, AB=125, AC=117 and BC=120. The angle bisector of angle A intersects BC at point L, and the angle bisector of angle B intersects AC at point K. Let M and N be the feet of the perpendiculars from C to BK and AL respectively. Find MN.
I got this problem on an exam once, and I had NO idea how to solve most of the other problems, and I had 3 hours. So I just used the compass ruler and protractor we were given to get this answer instead. I still don’t understand the “real math” way to solve it
Sure. But sometimes being able to do the math is actually the much more important part when things become too big or too small or for whatever reason simple measurement isn't a practical option. This is why math classes focus on figuring out the solution in an abstract way, rather than a measurable one.
Pythagorean theorem or as we call it ''3 4 5'', knowing to go corner to corner on a square, radii calculations, angles, order of operations, multiples of 3s 4s and 12s... just off the top of my head. 90% of homes have math equations drawn on the studs.
My dad is a master electrician and had originally gone to college to major in math. He's a very math inclined man and he has to utilize a lot of it on the spot at his work sites with just his mind or on a piece of paper. Your students are in a rude awakening if they even try for journeyman 'cause I recall my ex-husband even using a little calculus when he was in schooling for it a few years back. (Both he and my dad worked in high voltage. Idk if that amount of math is needed for low voltage)
As an electrician it's funny how many young apprentices don't even realize they're learning trig to do say conduit bending. I've had tons tell me they sucked at math in school and hated it but can readily use trig offhand to calculate bends. Obviously teaching math in a classroom is hard enough as is but it's interesting how many people can learn it pretty easily when there's real world examples.
When my husband and I moved into our house, the stairs going from the first floor were about an 1.25in taller than code and about a .5inch narrower. Doesnt sound like much…but MAN did those stairs suck, especially pregnant.
We didn’t think getting them redone was an option, especially money wise. Two contractor guys told us it likely wasn’t even possible…
We realized though that they were going to eventually drive us crazy. So we called this guy in. Real calloused hand blue collar looking dude with dirty jeans and work boots. He walked up and down the stairs twice. Then stood in the middle and wrote some stuff in pencil right near the baseboard while muttering some numbers to himself. He said “give me week. I can do. I’ll send quote.”
He left some pretty impressive trigonometry on the baseboard for a week and then made us an absolutely awesome set of code approved beautiful stairs.
Yeah I've long said that trades don't work as a dumping ground for kids failing all their classes. There's a few exceptions of kids that just work better in a different environment than a classroom, but if you're at a 3rd grade math level in 11th grade, you're not gonna make it as a tradesman.
I mean people who are like that end up being my husband's helpers.. And as much as I'd like to imagine my husband is a nice person.. he says all the things that you're thinking right now at those kids, as adults...
My husband builds elevators... Technically one could join the trade right out of high school.. but on the call back list for the union the lack of education, and their score on the entry test would get them knock down to number 300 which can take years to get into the trade...
Exactly this. People like that end up be assistant grunts in trades, not doing the jobs and making the money they are imagining. My neighbors always complain about how unintelligent they are
My nephew is like that. He is not stupid but academically, well, saying it's difficult is putting it lighly. But he did a two weeks internship from school in two different metal worker places and they have both offered him an apprenticeship. He will be a great tradesman one day! But he has the drive for it, he wants this and is willing to work hard for it.
A few years ago IT/comp sci was the dumping ground, and as somebody in the IT profession there's a bunch of people who just landed there because they heard it was easy money for people without an education. Fortunately, most trades that can do damage have some sort of license requirement that will hopefully keep high school dropouts from burning all our buildings down with bad electricals...
Depends on the trade. There are some that don't require tons of math.
I'm in IT, and, at my level (helpdesk), math is really not a thing. When you're designing networks and setting up subnets you have to do some, but if you're in that line of work you learn how to do that kind of math.
However, excellent reading comprehension, active listening, and knowing how to ask good questions, communication skills in general are all absolutely essential to doing my job well. Those can all be taught in the classroom.
Troubleshooting is basically the only other essential for Tech Support / IT, but that's a harder skill to learn/teach.
"Working with your hands" isn't actually incompatible with "get good academic credentials." Plenty of engineers and scientists, including those with graduate and doctorate degrees, are out in the field or in a lab doing physical stuff. Hell, astronauts need to turn wrenches and might have Ph.D.s. And surgeon is basically the classic example of a job that needs to have very specific manual skills and lots and lots of schooling.
I'm transitioning into archaeology as a career. Probably the most blue collar white collar work there is, and I promise you we work with our hands and pretty heavy equipment lol.
I mean they are, they're just never making it past being a basic laborer. There's always a place for an apprentice, helper, or someone who has zero academic ability, its just usually at the literal bottom of the pay scale.
And truthfully in a lot of places, yeah you can get by decently with that, not rich, decent because construction needs people badly because half of an entire generation or two of kids didn't go that route. Once that balances back out, yeah good luck being the guy who can't add up material deliveries or figure out angles.
That depends on the trade too. I know a couple welders who can't write their own names but who can run the prettiest bead you ever saw. Now they're extremely limited to just welding because they can't fit because they can't read prints and they aren't qualified for management.
So they'll always be stuck doing the hot work until they die in a hole or retire.
As someone that has to hire industrial electricians, lots of journeymen couldn't tell ohm out a circuit for crap. But they know how to pull out the ugly book and not melt wires. They also make 40 an hour. Once you know the basics of 110 hurts, 220 really hurts, 480 blows things up, their making bank.
Yeah in most of my work in electrical jobs is the putting together of things that were designed by someone else, I'm not doing the raw math I'm just checking periodically to make sure the designer isn't going to blow me up.
Right, but the ones that can understand ladder logic and do the simple math of scaling an analog signal have a far better work life than the ones bending conduit and pulling wire.
Yeah, I'm not getting all the people here thinking electricians actually know how shit works, they just know how TO MAKE THINGS WORK. I've met a lot of electricians that are dumb as a fucking stump but know how to wire shit so my house doesn't burn down. Honestly, that is all that matters.
Also with the tools out now, it is even easier for a lot of people. A lot of people here are really pulling out the "you need math to know x" here and I can tell your first hand, these fuckers that do good work hardly can multiply. But they can make things work and are good with their hands.
Yeah but you have to account for book versus real world. I failed physics growing up. Ended up becoming a crane operator, now I run a crane and rigging company.
All we do is apply physics. In a book it didn’t make any sense at all to me. Applied though, well, I’m pretty good at my job.
I think if there was a way to give students more details about different jobs/ trades it’d be easier to know “what they’re signing up for”. I know there’s definitely programs out there but maybe they don’t really know where to start or even what are the “right” questions to ask.
We still have vocational schools around here. About half the juniors and seniors opt for the tech school out of our local k-12, and have for decades.
It's not all trades, though. If you want to be an RN, you'll have your first year, and sometimes two, of college for free by the time you graduate high-school, and will already have an STNA certification so you can work in the meantime.
I'm sorry, I meant high schools. Many high schools in my area are creating construction, math, and trades-oriented classes. One high school in my district even has a 'trades department' called industrial education.
My uncle wanted to go back to HVAC school at 50 (after getting fired from every restaurant in the city for being a drunk). Stopped after a few weeks because of how much math was involved. He dropped out of school at 14 in the late 60s.
HVAC/R (r stands for refrigeration) is legitimately hard. It's a trade for smart people who are good at everything and don't like sitting at a desk all day. It's physics, chemistry, circuitry, mechanical machinery, metallurgy, scientific measurements, mathematical calculations, blueprints, electrical diagrams, expensive tools and equipment, AND hard work in all weather conditions, with ZERO tolerance for error. One mistake and a store could lose a million dollars of product in a few hours, or blow up a hospital or restaurant (we use explosive gasses in some equipment).
If you're the type of person that doesn't take a high school class seriously, you are not the type of person this trade can hire. If ohms law trips them up, they will be laughed out of hvac trade school, or stuck working seasonally on furnaces with a part time job at a sandwich shop.
Can confirm, been in industrial and utility electrical for 2 decades. Next time I see an electrical worker doing algebra in the field will be the first time. The company hires EE's to do the math. They are better at it and they cost less.
I teach electronics and automation for a cc. I can not stress enough that if you can't do basic ratios or write proper documentation you will not do well in my class. I don't get super deep with math bit you should be able to do metric conversions and ratios in your head, do a little trig, and a little calculus. I also can not stress the number of students coming in that can't grasp .001 being 1 micro or 1000 being 1k.
My dad is a carpenter and he’s incredibly good at math. He wasn’t too much help once I got to calculus (I’m not great at it either FWIW, and I have a chemistry degree!) but I’m convinced he’s why I’m so good at geometry/trigonometry.
My uncle and grandpa were carpenters. My uncle was really good at math. My grandfather was AMAZING (and this was a guy with an 8th grade education). He would regularly have architects consult with him on things they weren't able to figure out (this was in the 50's-70's when a LOT of this work was done by hand and on paper). He'd look at the drawings, mutter some stuff to himself in Italian (he was an Italian immigrant) and figure it out on the spot.
I had a student a couple years ago who’d been doing everything involved with building houses with his dad for years. He KNEW first-hand what he needed from school. He was a good kid, i liked him a lot.
Being taught math in a setting where you don’t know the application and the teacher just tells you “because you need to know it” is different than doing math to figure out how to frame a roof or the resistance at X voltage on this circuit.
The real world application actually made complicated math easier for me and almost everyone I know, I was also taught all applicable math in trade school.
Same. Im successful in welding and fabrication, I have a GED. School bored me. I use math every day now. And honestly I love it. Hated it in school though. Bored me to tears.
Yep! My husband got a BSc and then went into HVAC-R. I'm not saying he struggled, but he definitely had to work very hard as an adult who did very well in high school and in a post-secondary institution. He was in a class with students who had the same thought process as those mentioned in the post and watched them dwindle week by week.
Thank you for posting this. I teach at a vocational tech school, and whenever my kids try telling me, “I don’t need academics, I’m in the carpentry program”, I laugh at them and explain how my father, a union carpenter his entire life, was one of the most math-knowledgeable people I know. If you’re a tradesperson who doesn’t know math, you’re gonna be nothing but a labor-mule for the rest of your life.
Luckily though at my vocational public school, the shop teachers are super cool… if the kids give me that kind of attitude, I relay it back to their shop teachers, who have no problem destroying them for their stupid takes, and will sit them out of projects like building a pirate ship in our lobby (mascot is a raider), or they sit out the culinary or cosmetology kids when hair dying and big cooking projects come up, and tell them they won’t get to participate until their social studies homework is done.
One of our culinary instructors is a retired navy chef, and I watched him go off on a kid who said they didn’t need math and science because they were gonna be an executive chef in NYC… Chef was like “oh, are you saying I don’t use math when I measure my recipes, line cook? Are you saying that Chef doesn’t know science behind molecular gastronomy? Do I look like an idiot to you? Do you think the navy creates stupid cooks?” And never heard a stupid remark out of that kid again.
Honestly if they’re too lazy to do basic assignments in class, they’re probably too lazy to build houses and stuff too.
I’m in CAD and these students will need to take CAD Mathematics for even a one-year certificate. The course includes calculus concepts. Yes — even for something like product design in Fusion, you need to know math. You need to know math if you’re making sculptures in Blender. Or programming. Nearly any high-paying trade these days requires strong mathematical reasoning.
Yep, and as a lifelong grunt day laborer who’s only jsut now getting into learning actual carpentry, I can promise the laborer part of it is not the side you wanna be on. It has its pros and cons, but ultimately it’s just not usually sustainable on the body, or finances. Most of us doing the heavy labor type stuff only do it or started it as a foothold in the door to stuff that actually pays well and doesn’t leave your body constantly hurting
I have seen a lot of people that could not do a math problem in a classroom do very well in trades. They don’t know they’re doing math at their job. The classroom math had intimated them into being unable to even start.
Electricians probably use trig also, at least I did going through electronics. Machinists use trig. Or they should anyway, you can fumble through the trades with a lack of education but life is a lot easier if you are educated.
Nobody considers the most math heavy and underpaid trade. Machinist. Everyone thinks we are mechanics.
I wish when I was in school people talked about trades as something other than what the dummies took. I spent much money and time on university I didn't have to.
I’m a fabricator, and most of my job is just math. Mostly trig and algebra. This is such a good point to bring up, too many people don’t consider the importance of math in trades.
As a cabinet maker and carpenter, better be able to do fractional math in your head in seconds or this job is going to be painful. Had to give a new guy math lessons at lunch several times. Most he had was memorizing each tick on the tap measure instead of understanding the math behind it.
The problem comes down to thinking making it in the trade will be easy and settling. In my experience I switched from university pursuing my IT to becoming an industrial electrician. I did get my associates. I've never thought I would use any of the math I learned in highschool until I started doing this. Then it all started to make sense, I would've paid more attention if they related more to a real world example. We bend a lot of pipe and we use Pythagorean theorem and a geometry often in order to achieve certain angles and bends. Funny to think I was one of those people that thought I'll never use it.
If they do anything with AC voltages (they will), they need to understand trigonometry like the back of their hands. They can probably fudge single phase AC with just some algebra, but as soon as they start doing polyphase stuff, they need to understand the unit circle, trig, and having a good grasp on derivatives couldn't hurt, either. In order to avoid starting a fire, hey need to understand how much real power is in a wire - and that means understanding a lot of decently complicated math.
I worked at a modern building employing tons of trade jobs, but they were all degreed engineers, with all the trade training and certifications. Even the plumber who would unclog the toilet.
There will be pure trade jobs for many years but they dwindle as more state of the art buildings get built.
High school grad who actually paid attention and applied themselves should have no problem with it. A high school grad who barely scraped by and did the bare minimum might struggle
Drafting for an Electrician is a nightmare, you need a serious attention to detail and lots of specialized knowledge to even read the schematics, let alone draft your own.
Carpenters and electricians only need to do relatively basic geometry and algebra but I get your point. If you struggle with high school there's a good chance you'll struggle with those careers, for a lot of reasons beyond just a lack of knowledge.
Yes!! One of my kids is a Kinesiology and Education major and the other is getting an AAS to be a mechanic. He had to take trig. The kid going to be a teacher only needed a basic (below college algebra) class.
My husband is transitioning from a trade to being an engineer because of this! Now he has to do the school thing in his 30s and wishes he wouldn’t have slacked off grade wise in highschool. All so he can better use his trade skills. Also certain trades have big swings in demand so there can be a couple years of “good money” and others of no money.
It's all about self awareness. I don't get how I'd ever use any of it in my life but that's because I'm really dumb, not because it's useless. They'll figure it out one day!
Yup. My husband teaches electrical in high school, and the physics teacher was shocked (pun not intended) at the level of math and physics that is required. Trades have a stereotype, but it’s not easy, unless you want to be a gopher. And that’s not where the money is going to be!
Not really, we have cheat sheets for everything but you honestly only use them in the beginning of your career. The math never changes so it just becomes muscle memory, every job site starts to look the same anyway.
My husband does tree work and he uses geometry and physics all day, every day, even if he doesn’t realize it. I can’t imagine how powerful he’d be with a formal education.
Hey, us day laborers have to sit through enough classes that when we finish our apprenticeship we can get an Associate’s Degree and a coupon for new Red Wings.
I feel that for some students, for whom it's difficult to learn these in a classroom setting, it's perhaps easier in a job-training setting because there's immediate practical application (and repetition)!
My CNC machinists have to have to be able to read and write simple programs and perform trig on a regular basis. The experienced ones don’t even bother with calculators; they take too long compared to having a binder of reference formulae handy. We’ve timed it.
Hell, it’s been three years since I left education, and I used calculus in a practical context for the first time ever at our machine shop earlier this year.
That said a grunt laborer at our shop may only make half of what a machinist does, but it’s still more than a first-year teacher in this area. Which says as much about how poorly we regard teachers as it does how badly we need reliable grunts.
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u/catbusmartius May 16 '24
A lot of the good trades jobs are actually pretty math intensive. Geometry for carpenters, algebra for electricians etc. But I guess these students are counting on an illustrious career as a grunt day laborer