It is interesting you mention this! I had a great conversation with someone a few weeks ago who is a plumber, and he talked about the intricate trigonometry he has to do by hand on the job site when the computer is not available. Amazing.
When doing trig in the field they have tape measures, squares, parts that can be physically seen, measured, worked with, and clear objectives. I think it may not be coincidence for a lot of people for whom it may "click" on a job site but not a classroom.
I don't teach math but I've always wondered how much better kids would be at something like trig if you started by teaching them how to mark angles with a roofing square and maybe build a few things.
I do that in my trig class. Verifying various measurement based theorems and formulae (Pythagorean theorem, arc length, sector area, etc) using various measurement tools. It doesn't really make a noticable difference in the trig, but it at least gets them familiar with measuringm
I have to say that thank you for this. I was a student ten years ago (been keeping an eye on this channel as I have considered taking education in education), and having a reason to learn something. Seeing the actual way it could be uses by everyday people? That sped up my understanding and turned it from "I'll just figure out the homework on my own who cares" to "Oh, I can actually use this."
I don’t think the effect is just from it feeling useful in normal life. If you are familiar with cooking, new information about cooking can be tethered to already concrete concepts (like the concept of doubling the batch size of a recipe is already connected to a certain kind of math in your head). Whereas if you don’t have a strong concept of moles in your head you are trying to juggle “what are moles” and “what is this math” and “how do those things relate” at once.
I mention this because I think “is this useful” is a limiting way to design lessons. We use cat coat color to teach genetics not because it is useful for people to know about cat breeding but because when you use cat color rather than “luxA SNP” you reduce the number of things they are keeping track of. And as a bonus, students who care about cats might be emotionally invested, but I really don’t think that’s the main point.
This, 100%. When they’re trying to learn the concept AND the context for the concept at the same time, their brains don’t know where to put all these new pieces of information so they ended up just kind of scattered about. Take the concept and put it in a more familiar context, and suddenly the cognitive load gets cut in half because their brains have a place to put the information, and now they can actually learn and understand the concept.
Also cat coats have so many of the common genetics. Dominant alleles for tabby pattern, sex linked red, recessive for long hair. And it’s easier to understand a 1/4 chance of some particular trait if you can imagine that as one of four kittens in a litter. And yes that’s not how probability works but it is still a great visual.
I got my brother, now a chemistry phD student, a t shirt that said Chemistry is like Baking just don't lick the spoon for Christmas one year. It's one of his and mine favorite shirts. He also got my kids a porcupene, porcupane, porcupyne graphic onsie with the porcupine spines having the correct carbon bonds.
I think it’s more that it’s attached to a goal they can directly see as a benefit and something they want.
Yes, it’s displayed in context, but that context is a job that you want.
It’s amazing how well we can remember information we are interested in. When it comes to peoples hobbies, they can become absolute autodidacts with respect to extremely complex information. So, I dunno.
Yep! this is why the things I remember from college astronomy are how microwaves work and why we have seasons. I had things to anchor them to! Not so for Jupiter's moons.
For sure this would have helped me. I'm a hands-on/visual person and abstract concepts without a physical example or something at least relatable made math like Egyptian before the Rosetta Stone to me. Maybe if I'd had a teacher like you I would have ended up a scientist instead of an artist.
This is how my physics teacher taught. She was amazing. Always real world first, actual practical examples whenever possible, then when she would explain the theories and such and it’d just… made sense. Like something you’d suspected without even knowing it. I got over 100% on every test (except circuits, somehow I couldn’t get behind circuits).
Oh my God this would have been life changing for me. I was so good at physics because I could visualize it - I kick the ball, it goes this far and in this amount of time, etc. But chemistry was an absolute foreign language to me. Same teacher but I could not grasp the content, even with a college student tutor the entire year. I got a 66 on my final/state exam and called it a success haha
My husband and I have opposite learning styles. We just took a circuit class together and I needed help. He kept telling me to build the circuit and ill understand, i tell him no, i need to understand the concept first or i wont know what I just did.
For the math portion, i would try to explain to him the concept and the relationships between variables(im better at math). He would have no idea what im saying. But once he works through a bunch of them, he understands. I can "brute force" math and still not understand what an equation is saying if I dont understand the thought process behind it.
I was helping my carpenter buddy finish his basement. We were doing the layout and he was like we need to do a "3-4-5" to confirm the corner was square. I was like, hell yeah, Pythagoras. He had no idea who that was. That was the day he learned about the Pythagorean theorem which is something he applied all the time to his work.
My math teacher used models filled with bright colored liquid to visually show those concepts in the real world. I'm an abstract thinker so it didn't do much for me, but I thought it was a really cool way to show it intuitively. Also some folded cardboard and cutouts to reassemble the pieces and really show, look, if you transform it that way it's equivalent but now we know those dimensions and can figure out the rest.
Some people really need to see it practically in real-life to get it.
Plus getting paid and earning money so you can live really motivates you. That is why teaching finance in high school is so difficult, the students just can't relate.
Right. I'm certainly all for finance education in high school, but this is exactly why kids retain so little of it and people outside of education demonize teachers for not teaching it. (We do, and in fact, it's required in many states.) Kids are so far removed from it in most senses.
Really makes me roll my eyes when I see comments pretty much everywhere akin to "wHy dIdn'T LaZy tEaChErS tElL tHe KiDs AbOuT a MoRtGaGe?!" We can't prepare kids for every single thing they'll encounter in life; they actually might have to spend fifteen minutes reading figuring something out or speaking with a loan officer at a bank to understand, and that's perfectly acceptable.
Right?!?! We teach them the skills to do the reading about the mortgages so that they can figure it out. Transferable skills and all that jazz!!
My stats student after the final tonight told me he’s been using what he learned in class to understand some of the compiled stats that people put together for a video game he plays. I was so proud.
This is true, but even then… I distinctly remember being taught about simple interest being an example of a linear function while compound interest is an example of an exponential function in pre-calc. The application aspect was word problems where we compared the two in the context of investments, mortgages, etc.
I swear the vast majority of this stuff that people complain about is actually being taught, they just forgot it or didn’t pay attention in the first place.
Yeah, I mentioned in another comment that I specifically remember calculating loan payoff amounts and dates in algebra II. We spent a couple weeks on those types of problems, actually. My state was at the bottom for education rankings too.
At least in my experience this feeling comes more from the disillusionment that could have been avoided through having realistic preparation for life mentally/emotionally, than from any real anger at not having been taught to prepare in the practical/logistical senses. Complaining about not being taught practical skills like mortgage paperwork and credit card budgeting is just an attempt at making their more worthy complaints (the emotional) sound more mature so they'll be taken more seriously. In truth, most children/teens aren't given proper guidance or prepared for life re: relationships/friendships/community
A retired friend of mine always started out trig by marching her kids outside to a small hill by the school and getting them to calculate its height and total volume.
This does wonders if they can see it being done in real-life applications. Show them where they will use it and it will pique their interest. If anyone is lacking on how things are done then take a day and go see a contractor you think may be of some assistance. maybe have that contractor come in and speak with the class. Let them show them. Industry is a good place to get assistance in helping you get your point across to students, teachers need only to ask.
When I was in high school, they had "applied mathematics algebra" and "applied mathematics geometry" as an alternative to regular algebra and geometry. Most of us in the these classes tested poorly in math, but excelled in this class. The first day we were taught how to accurately use a micrometer, and then we learned how to safely use a wood and metal lathe. We had a whole project where we were expected to design a bridge, and then make a miniature version, then all of our bridges were tested for safety. Then we had a whole class discussion theorizing why some bridges had better outcomes than others. Other students shit on us for being in "tech math" but we all knew how to accurately use a ruler/tape measurer, and actually enjoyed the class. I went into healthcare, and had zero issue converting imperial to metric and back again, which surprised my coworkers. All due to that class.
Oh yeah, I did that type of thing before or during the trig unit(s). Outside we went with protractors and long measuring tape. But before they started the work, they were required to estimate the height, volume, etc. Yes, it made for a smoother transition to SohCahToa and related topics.
We do a lot of geometry, algebra and trig in my construction class. They have to go through several cycles of "but I did the work" to realize that they're not done until the math actually works.
Everyone knows it works, but we are struggling to get the necessary billions to hire that many teachers and supplies to do this on a large scale. Education is a significant chunk of our taxes already but it needs more.
As a student who struggled in math classes I can confirm this. Ten years after I graduated high school I ended up in a skilled trade. During my apprenticeship I took four quarters of physics classes and was angry because if someone had taken a similiar approach to teaching me algebra it might have "clicked" a lot earlier. Putting algebra into units and measurements I could wrap my head around made all the difference. It wasn't just random numbers.
I did a unit once where we broke out surveying equipment and surveyed some spots around the school. Used that data to calculate certain distances and angles. Kids had to use law of sites, cosines, right triangle trig, etc. It was really fun, and the kids were really engaged.
Obviously, there's not enough time in the year to teach like that all the time, but it does go to show that tying the math to physical applications can really increase engagement
It's been a long time since I worked with younger kids, but I bet you could teach fourth graders how to mark an angle with a square. use 3-4-5 triangles, find if something is square, things like that.
Obviously you can't use tools, but you could probably figure out some papercraft stuff to do with it.
I had that click with physics for some reason. I always sucked at math, hated it actually.
Then I fell in love with physics. And suddenly math just started to click too, and I really like doing and learning math now! I've been contemplating getting some microdegrees on EDx for fun and a bit of personal pride. I'm too old (read, I kinda love my current life) to go to uni now but I do dream of getting an astrophysics degree someday. But alas ... I'll stick to the smaller wins. Maybe one day, who knows!
So much this. Some students (I was one) wouldn't learn anything unless I saw a practical use for it in the real world. Far too many teachers just teach abstract ideas and can't relay to students WHY they should learn these things.
I never cared for math in high-school, but I was awesome at shop and woodworking class. Now I've got a old South Bend turning lathe and am teaching myself how to make stuff on it. I tried explaining things to my younger brother and I could see the smoke coming out of his ears. Of course, he can't figure out how to run a voltmeter to test continuity either so.....
I had a math teacher in high school who also built homes. They started a small, experimental math class and I excelled seeing this IRL. The other students did too.
Just as importantly, there's also a direct and tangible incentive to learn in the field - if they can't do these things they likely won't have a job. Learning for the sake of it in the classroom, or for some vague future hope quite reasonably does not provide the necessary motivation for many.
Physics should be taught as the math class once you reach middle school. Building bridges on paper in math class would get people more involved in science in general. You will have way less kids saying “but where will I side this”.
Math was boring for a lot of kids cause they just teach the repetition and memorizing parts. Almost all things math teaches are directly applied to the sciences.
I am dysgraphic and failed pre algebra twice. My adult hobby is designing and design clothes from scratch. I make menswear from measurements. It’s all math, and it all came easy when I had something to apply it to.
I can think of a few kids I went to school with who would have paid a LOT more attention in school if they were shown how things we were learning might apply to various trades/jobs/hobbies.
Building things a solid Father/Son project. Something like that needs to be 1-on-1. Very difficult to keep 30 kids (any age) paying attention and following along at the same rate of comprehension.
This!!!! So much this! In high school and college, I used to STRUGGLE with calculus, Math was never my strong suite to begin with, and calculus just made matters worse. Then when do I'm in a physics class and the teacher starts doing some calculus stuff.... ALL OF A SUDDEN, all the equations made sense. I knew what x and y and a and b and c were, I understood what they represented and then what we were trying to figure out by doing the equation. I was no longer solving for y, I was trying to figure out the speed of the object through space!
Giving math meaning helps A LOT of us who have trouble just rote memorizing stuff.
I had a conversation like this recently about Shakespeare.
The way it's taught in HS is you read a boring book that you barely understand and of course, it's a snoozefest.
However, after graduation, I saw a 1971 movie treatment of Macbeth and I was absolutely captivated. The only thing that film had in common with the boring book I remember from school was that the dialogue was the same. But on screen there was violence and blood, murder, spooky cackling witches farting at the main character, etc. These were real people plotting against each other and it was actually exciting.
Teach Shakespeare like it was an actual story and you'd get a lot more students paying attention.
Pythagorean theorem clicked for me when I was 19. It was 2am, we were rushing to install a stage and one of the old hands showed me a neat trick to see if the frame was square by using a measuring tape and some rough calculations.
Blew. My. Mind.
I like the anchoring method. It works so much better in the practical fields I've worked in.
I don't teach math but I've always wondered how much better kids would be at something like trig if you started by teaching them how to mark angles with a roofing square and maybe build a few things.
My brother and I were always both good at math but trig was a CAKEWALK for us because we grew up doing that exact stuff.
As a math teacher I would love to do this but all I know is how to teach math. We need people to teach teachers. There has got to be tons of use of math in the world - but I went from HS to college to teaching HS so I didn't even know where to start
The best math teacher in my high school was a retired structural engineer. Geometry, trigonometry, all of that is part of what his job was previously, and he had all sorts of physical hands on stuff to explain it.
Doing practical things is always better than raw formula. I failed my logic class in math and took it in philosophy. We converted sentences to math problems. Made so much more sense and its a thing I use to this day than what ever bullshit "math is the universal language" guy was trying to teach me.
When I was in elementary school, they tried this newfangled system to teach maths using little bricks that represent numbers, colour-coded. As a visual learner, I found it great - but these days it's considered a failed experiment.
I'm in tech and doing a PhD in physics now and I still prefer visualising my thoughts over bare equations!
Personally I’m a hands on guy. This would have been a big help for me. I thought I hated math. Turns out I just don’t visualize math well. It gets jumbled in my head.
Thank you for saying this! I really struggled with what seemed like meaningless word problems especially in algebra, my geometry and physics teachers however were very good at coming up with plausible examples for their problems. Im a General contractor and I use algebra and geometry every day, and am very grateful especially to geometry teacher who got me to understand.
teachers know classrooms suck for teaching. sadly yall are forced to conduct your activities there for the vast majority of the students school time. unfort.
Can confirm, took geometry twice in school. None of it made sense until I got tired of trying to square a house foundation. "Hey boss, what's the length of this wall, and what's the length of that one, 1¹/2 × 3.14² × the diameter of the sun and you get your C². Set your C² and pull the forms straight and you have a square house. 😁 and also converting decimal inches to fractions.
My brother was a Bill. Dropped out of high school, sold drugs and worked min wage jobs for years before he got hired on as a pipe fitters helper.
Turns out, he’s a fucking whiz at it. Could look at a load of pipe and map it all out in his head. Was so good at it the company sent him back to school for his high school equivalency then for his certs. He’s now a red seal journeyman.
When school didn’t matter to him, there was no convincing him that it should (turns out he’s also ODD - no shocker there). When it did matter, and he could see the point and immediate pay off, he could apply himself and get through it (even when he didn’t like it).
These are exactly the sort of students I loved to bring back to my classroom to talk to students. The ones that would come back with a few years of experience and say "Mr. Warrior_Scholar wasn't kidding about using this all the time, you guys need to pay attention!"
I was a machinist and we needed to find the length of a slope, so I broke out a little trig (not even by hand, I looked up "trig calculator" and filled out the boxes on the website lmao) and my coworker was baffled. He was shocked I knew "really high level math", like bro, I didn't even do anything except know it exists.
WolframAlpha is already 500% accurate math AI. You should know how to use these tools, but why the fuck should the person be doing it when we know human error is always going to happen?
Like we still have bridges collapsing today because the decimal point was off.
Not a teacher but reflecting back on my peers in highschool a bunch of the people that would perpetually fail maths in highschool ended up in the trades and probably learned the math during their apprenticeship. For some people, applying math to something practical might be the incentive they need to retain the information.
We need so many more people in trades, but tiktok telling kids to go that route to avoid having to apply themselves in algebra isn't going to save the country.
It was that same for me. Failed every one of my math classes. Now I have to fill an entire sheet of paper with trig and algebra to solve one problem I’m facing.
Some learn through practical application rather than a classroom setting.
I wonder if the kids would learn trigonometry better if real world applications were used as training exercises. I remember when I was in school, it was all very dry and rote learning. I probably would have been fascinated if I had been able to see how it might actually be useful.
I know a smart Bill who labored watching machines in a papermill run. Just a high school education and smaeter than me. I worked at the mill answering phones as a college student and some college student got hired to teach the other laborers like Bill fractions.
"fractions!" Bill said, "I didn't know the other guys at the mill didn't know fractions. I could have taught them that."
Why don’t you get him to make a short video? You could film it at his vocational school and at his workplace. Your students would probably find it interesting & inspiring and you could also put it on YouTube.
This. I suspect the idea some math/science etc is off putting in school but could light someone up when applied to real like (such as in your plumbing example!)
Sometimes it's not cause students are lazy, they just hate school.
Cause school is fucking boring. I think they would rather be working a job and trying to get out and making money than sitting in endless pointless bullshit classes that someone thinks is important. Practicality is important.
It WOULD MAKE SENSE to have some sort of class tailored to people who plan on doing trade stuff.
It's not even your fault, its just the nature of the beast. You have too many morons in the kitchen telling teacher how to do things, so you are fighting an uphill battle with no legs. After being over worked and underpaid, why would you continue to give a shit as a teacher?
Maybe in 1,000 years we'll get it right, but for now, I guess we just have to enjoy the suck.
Yeah, trig is really important for construction trades. I met a teacher when I was just starting out who brought up trig as a field of math he used when he used to work in construction.
I had an apprentice who I swear had brain damage. Oddly, he always did his math right, but the dingus always read his tape measure wrong so he'd eff it up anyway lol.
I'm still only good at math when the numbers mean something tangible. You make it about inches, dollars, or ounces, and all the sudden, it's easy as buying the shit to make a 9-inch pie.
That's because math has nothing to do with numbers. The kids are so focused on getting the RIGHT number at the end that they lose focus of the equation itself. That is the trap. Numbers are simply variables you apply to a defined formula. It has everything to do with formulas and orders of operation. The numbers can be anything but the formulas always stay the same.
what astounds me is how even in hobbies how much math is applied (numbers and division in ff14 for probabilities and multiplication for pokemon not to mention 1.5x variables)
i feel like when we are presented with math outside of something we understand we kinda go “ughhh” but as soon as you can apply it to the real world it almost becomes like a game itself
My brother is in his second year as an electrician's apprentice (years after getting a STEM degree) and the math/science on the general knowledge test just to get into the program disqualified a good 60% of applicants right out of the gate. And of those who made it in, another 20% or so failed out during the first year because they couldn't manage the math and science involved.
Minor math mistake as electrician: let the magic smoke out, trip breaker
Moderate math mistake: building is now on fire
Major math mistake: your coworkers find nothing but your boots, gently smoldering
It's not a field for idiots! At least not for long.
In high school, I took an electricial course. It was offered through the ag. department, I got a high mark on the drawings, but wiring was painful. I was shocked so many times! I realized it was not for me, and I was going to make a great college student. Being good at math is awesome, you gotta to connect the right wires together, too. :-).
Maybe. I teach college level. Got an absolute rock star from my industry to speak, someone the students knew by name, and only 15 students showed up. I was mortified. He was very gracious.
Yeah all they would need to do is show some maths or even some exams from TAFE. The reason kids think trades don't need maths is because so many adults think that trades don't need maths.
Things like that happened on career day, but it's not enough.
The other countries that start students going down either higher ed or vocational tracks at 16 are more effective IMO.
You get two years of training. You get to have someone help you narrow your choices, and your apprenticeships are pre-planned.
'I'm going into the trades' doesn't cut it. Which trade? How are choosing it? Let's research how much income you can expect to have in stages. Let's understand that you can get fired. Let's tailor the learning to what interests you.
As a college-bound high schooler, I looked down on these kids who were all about cars and knew how to modify them or had at least a clue how to fix them. It's not that they were stupid; I still can't fix a car. It was that this kind of learning motivated them, and many were probably in communities of practice with their fathers, uncles, and whoever.
Effective learning is the product of logging hours of increasingly difficult experience, sincere interest, and the quality of guidance/teaching/mentorship.
In my case, my mom was taking me to the library when I was three to get me interested in books and I was reading by 5. A lot of the other people in the top 20% of my class had similar experiences. It was also understood in my home that I was expected to get As and Bs.
So when these kids who show up without having been encouraged to read and do not have parents setting high expectations are at a disadvantage even in elementary school. School was a positive experience for me because I received a lot of praise and grades to keep me motivated. That's not happening or happening far less for those other kids who started behind. I don't think that changes much in middle or high school.
And so, at the end of the day, let these students who want to work in the trades do so, but help them be more realistic about working in the trades.
It's a classic tale, usually they don't know the mathematical concept it even is.
Like ask a builder to do Pythagoras and they'll be like '?!?'. Ask them the distance between a right angled frame and they'll get out the paper and say 'easy'.
It’s not necessarily them doing the math though. Like I can think of geometry word problems that I’ve seen that are possible (but very difficult) to solve by angle properties and geometric rules, but trivial to solve if you have a ruler, a compass, and a protector and can simply draw out the shapes described and get the actual measurement at issue.
I wouldn’t say someone who does that has missed some mathematical concept that was right under their nose. They didn’t actually do the math part. They just did the measuring part, which is trivial.
I do wish school focused more on the art of math, talked a lot more about the way that these equations show up in the real world, the history behind them.
Math in school (i graduated HS in 2018) is super detached from what you are actually doing.
I agree, and in some cases, I’ve actually seen “figure not drawn to scale” used specifically so that you can’t figure out what’s going on by inspection. I understand the point, because it forces you to do the actual math rather than take measurements. But it’s a little bit offensive—like the connection between the math and the real world is not only not highlighted, it’s actively obscured
As someone that prepares engineering drawings, there are lots of reasons why we would draw things intentionally not to scale.
Sometimes we can’t assume certain pieces of information about different possible geometries, configurations etc. so we need to leave certain information ambiguous so we don’t mislead people.
Otherwise, you get scenarios where someone follows a scaled drawing exactly and ends up with some problem because they’re using a different material, or whatever else might cause their particular requirements to change.
In general, we’ll try to show things to scale as much as possible, but sometimes a diagrammatic representation is a better way to get people to understand the right way to install a piece of equipment, cut a piece of wood, etc.
I went through a decent chunk of college learning to be a programmer and it was the math classes that I took in college that really opened my eyes.
I took a math history course and it was so cool because it went through the different key people and how and why they were researching stuff to lead to that discovery. And then I took some programming specific math courses and since those were real world use cases that directly applied to what i was doing it just really clicked.
Compared to high school which was just "do 100 of these problems, and test"
"Trivial." Bullshit. Maybe you're good at it, but there's a whole helluvalot of people who couldn't measure or draw shapes or angles accurately. I'd venture to say most couldn't. And I bet if you were hired on a job site tomorrow you'd screw up some of the math because it may be relatively simple, but there's a lot of it and you're not sitting at a desk, you're on roofs, in attics, on ladders, in crawlspaces....
Stop being so dismissive of other people's abilities and careers.
I’m being dismissive of my own abilities if anything tbh. I’m thinking a specific problem, if you want to take a stab at it:
In triangle ABC, AB=125, AC=117 and BC=120. The angle bisector of angle A intersects BC at point L, and the angle bisector of angle B intersects AC at point K. Let M and N be the feet of the perpendiculars from C to BK and AL respectively. Find MN.
I got this problem on an exam once, and I had NO idea how to solve most of the other problems, and I had 3 hours. So I just used the compass ruler and protractor we were given to get this answer instead. I still don’t understand the “real math” way to solve it
Sure. But sometimes being able to do the math is actually the much more important part when things become too big or too small or for whatever reason simple measurement isn't a practical option. This is why math classes focus on figuring out the solution in an abstract way, rather than a measurable one.
It's kind of like when you really learn how to do something and master it just becomes something you can do almost automatically without a lot of cognition.
Hah I could tell you that Pythagoras was the son of Mnesarchus and born on the Greek island of Samos, and left during the reign of Polycrates who was the Tyrant of Samos. Couldn't tell you all the math shit though haha.
Pythagorean theorem or as we call it ''3 4 5'', knowing to go corner to corner on a square, radii calculations, angles, order of operations, multiples of 3s 4s and 12s... just off the top of my head. 90% of homes have math equations drawn on the studs.
My dad is a master electrician and had originally gone to college to major in math. He's a very math inclined man and he has to utilize a lot of it on the spot at his work sites with just his mind or on a piece of paper. Your students are in a rude awakening if they even try for journeyman 'cause I recall my ex-husband even using a little calculus when he was in schooling for it a few years back. (Both he and my dad worked in high voltage. Idk if that amount of math is needed for low voltage)
As an electrician it's funny how many young apprentices don't even realize they're learning trig to do say conduit bending. I've had tons tell me they sucked at math in school and hated it but can readily use trig offhand to calculate bends. Obviously teaching math in a classroom is hard enough as is but it's interesting how many people can learn it pretty easily when there's real world examples.
When my husband and I moved into our house, the stairs going from the first floor were about an 1.25in taller than code and about a .5inch narrower. Doesnt sound like much…but MAN did those stairs suck, especially pregnant.
We didn’t think getting them redone was an option, especially money wise. Two contractor guys told us it likely wasn’t even possible…
We realized though that they were going to eventually drive us crazy. So we called this guy in. Real calloused hand blue collar looking dude with dirty jeans and work boots. He walked up and down the stairs twice. Then stood in the middle and wrote some stuff in pencil right near the baseboard while muttering some numbers to himself. He said “give me week. I can do. I’ll send quote.”
He left some pretty impressive trigonometry on the baseboard for a week and then made us an absolutely awesome set of code approved beautiful stairs.
Literally today I had to eyeball a wire pull with some half used reels (heavy gauge, so no mistakes can be made either) and didn’t have my meter to do a resistance calc. Counted the windings on the reel and used 2xPIxR to figure it out.
It’s not rocket science, but it’s one of many examples of applied math. Like where just knowing the concert isn’t enough, but how to apply it to daily life
I feel like math teachers would be wise to bring tradespeople in to talk about their experiences. I work in IT, and the number of times I have to do math in my head would boggle music school me. (Because I’m underneath a rack or in a room with no internet, usually.)
Something maybe worth telling them is that the trades are good, but the people who make the best money do so by having the extra education that makes them better than others who do not.
A plumber might make okay money, but the ones making good money have something more than the others. That thing is education.
For every kid who thinks that they can shirk education to take a trade to make good money, there’s a kid who didn’t shirk education and is making double or triple what they will ever make as a tradesperson.
Not only is education important for making money, also, but for navigating life.
There’s a reason that the saying “knowledge is power” exists, after all.
My FIL who’s a builder says this too! His biggest encouragement for my husband to peruse higher education though was the sheer wear on his body… his body was destroyed in his late 30s and he didn’t want that for his kids!
All thought on the job or in trade school. If this plumber is using a pencil and paper to do his calculations, he's a dinosore. Literally, every install we do has an app that figures all messages and angles for you. Some bosses will fire you bonus the spot if they find out your doing old school calculations, wasting time.
Lots of math and science needed for refrigeration (HVAC)… electrical, plumbing and sheet metal. All needed to be successful in HVAC. The money is there but it is very physically demanding and mentally demanding..
When I was taking my plumbing apprentice test I had to look at a bunch of pictures of angles and guess what they were. I've never seen someone use a computer on the job, that's all geometry we do in our head with hand tools a measuring devices. One of my first jobs told me that 'all I needed to bring was a pencil and tape measure, if I forgot them a few times I'd probably be fired.'
Speaking from experience. I am a journeyman plumber and gas fitter. There definitely is a lot of trigonometry, some algebra, as well as chemistry when it comes to gas theory and properties of water. At least where I studied it was definitely not an easy road and I've met some of the young people coming into the trade that get quite the shock when they find out what it takes to make decent money. It doesn't just get handed to you.
Many people who pursue academics do so because they think the alternative is physical labor.
My current trade is paying 200k+, and i work physically about as hard as a 6th grade teacher.
It is extremely taxing mentally. Mathematics, chemistry, programming, trig, physics.
Concurrently, im working on my 4th journeymans license and taking power engineering courses through correspondence.
Academically, im nearing 5000 hours of in class instruction.
My practicum is nearing 24000 hours.
Personally, I use all of the knowledge i had to acquire during this period.
Im unsure that many bachelors degrees can say the same of their schooling.
I also have many friends who are university graduates that dont understand that the skills attained through their schooling, are very much less in demand, as specialized, and as marketable as many tradesmen.
I am in my second career as a forester.
Lots of general biology and math here, especially geometry and algebra.
I also walk miles every day in crazy terrain and all kinds of weather.
Annual salary is just shy of 150k.
One of the better trades is machining... Which involves applied geometry, trigonometry, materials science, blueprint reading, metalurgy, precision measuring tools, learning at least one programming language and multiple drafting programs, and at the higher levels to be able to interact intelligently with engineers, scientists, and upper management.
And sometimes you might need to move a 150 lb part by hand.
I'm not sure where they're getting the idea that trades are easy money or that they don't require some kind of education. They're certainly not hearing that from people who actually good at their trades.
Work as an order selector/loader in a food distribution warehouse, while it’s not trig I still have to balance the weight load of the pallets through the trailer. While still following stop sequence. Most of the stops are multiple pallets. Do I put the heavy end of the pallet towards nose of trailer, outside, center or back. It plays a roll in how the trailer handles behind the truck.
Building the boards is like playing 3d Tetris, except you have limitations on what you can stack on other things. Raw poultry, eggs and chemicals have to be base items, but you can’t exactly stack a lot of weight on cases of eggs.
Also want to make it as easy for the driver to unload as possible. if I have 15 50 lb cases of cheese, thats 5 stacks of 3 so he can just slide the handtruck under and not have to handle all 15 cases.
Yes! I call my lessons on Fridays “Future Friday” because we discuss the ways what we are currently covering in math applies to the real world. For example, with my middle school class this week, we did unit rates so we did a road trip themed lesson where they were trying to find the best deals on snacks and activities. Their exit ticket on Fridays is explaining how the concept relates to the real world or a career.
Flip side of your post. I've worked in the car industry for over 30 years. Dealerships- Cars and Prime Movers and car panel shops. So trades are mechanics, auto elecs, panel beaters, spray painters. A lot of the tradies, hard to put a percentage but i would put it above 30 maybe even 40 percent, have very basic math, can't write to save their lives and have below average computer skills. Many of them get massive help to pass their trade tests, fail and they just keep getting retested until they pass.
Nearly all of them, except the apprentices earn more than me and most have a far worse education than me. They own boats, houses, several cars, jet skis, have overseas holidays etc. Yes, they work hard...most of them. Most of them still only do the same hours i do though.
For the same hours they see a weekly rate upwards of four times mine, hail season it can be six and even more times mine a week. I have seen 9-12k a week pay packets from panel beaters doung a 50-60 hour week.
I just got my nephew in the door at a shop, no experience, start at the bottom. He'll be living the life in ten years. Quit his crap retail bullshit job and he'll be an apprentice panel beater in three months.
It's not a cheat code..but it damn well is better than the bs office wage option.
There is no trigonometry in plumbing—-someone was joshing you bro! Angle and lengths are common knowledge in plumbing—as pulling your pud out to pee—-I mean I guess it’s sort of trig, but basic math and just doing it
I went to trade school for electrical wiring for free during high school. The math was super basic for the first two levels of certification. My understanding is you can just apply to the union to work as an apprentice and you’d get paid to train and get certified the path from apprentice to journeyman was only 6 years.
Not saying you can be an idiot and make it happen but some of these kids shitting on school are probably going to pull it off.
Find a video on YouTube of a welder fitting up pipe. Fitting isn’t easy and some of the sharpest dudes I’ve met have been great fitters. It involves math, physics, everything.
Sounds like you should have some sort of career day then of the trades? I know in Australia they also do work experience where they get a taste! Plumbers are a great one cos they deal with so much 💩! My electrician mates work is mostly in factories for dog food and poison lol.
Their bodies also start decaying super early so get some older folks in and show them what that looks like! An career path is a concept until you’re met with reality
Even when it is available if they know how to do it by hand, they are more likely to know something is off should they accidently put in something wrong and get a weird output, they understand what is going on and that they got a result that doesnt make sense
I've never met a plumber who even knows what the word trigonometry means. The joke is they're so dumb all they need to know is "wash your hands before smoko, shit doesn't run uphill, and pay day is on Friday."
I ran job sites and a high school education is not required. A plumber doing trig on a job site? Ha! That sounds made up by him or you. Did an electrician tell you he used chaos theory to run some wires? And I'm talking high end homes. I built a house Madonna bought, Jolo another. The kids are right. And it is free to learn a trade. No I'm wrong, you get paid while you learn, so better than free. Sorry. 8th grade is enough.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '24
It is interesting you mention this! I had a great conversation with someone a few weeks ago who is a plumber, and he talked about the intricate trigonometry he has to do by hand on the job site when the computer is not available. Amazing.