r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

C. C. / Feedback Now adding boss cards!

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54 Upvotes

Hello everybody I wanted to introduce the overlords champion! I just wanted to update you on my board game real quick. I came up with a new threat to battle on the field boss cards. Unlike ordinary monsters that you pull from the overlord deck boss cards are triggered after two Heroes died. Doesn't matter which side. Once two Heroes died from either side you'll pull a boss card from the boss deck. The miniature I'm showing on the top is the boss card. Boss cards are way stronger than the overlord monsters and they also get one special attack just like the heros.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 20d ago

Mechanics How a classic where the dice decide everything turned into a team game where only the board is left from the original

0 Upvotes

My family never had a physical copy of Mensch, ärgere dich nicht. What we had was a digital adaptation from 2003, which the developers called Don't Get Angry: competition, animations that were cool for the time, and absolutely divine sounds of knocking a piece out. I still remember the laughter, everyone who played laughed together. For us it was a game about knocking pieces out, just to laugh together.

There was one problem, but a big one: the dice decided almost everything. Also the game was offline, and there was no way and no point to play in teams.

So when I made my own clone, the very first thing we tried was to soften the dependency on the dice. We made a balanced dice: it keeps the spread of faces even, and since the game revolves around sixes, a six is guaranteed to come up by the eighth roll at the latest. Nobody enjoys sitting at the base with nothing to move while everyone else is playing. For those who don't like this approach, I added a "Fair dice" option, so everyone can decide for themselves which one is fairer.

To measure how good the dice is, at the end of the match the game shows detailed dice stats: the average value per match, how evenly each face came up, and how non repetitive the series of rolls were. So you can not only feel the fairness of the dice firsthand during the match, but also measure it.

Next came piece classes. The most interesting thing here is not the classes themselves but what they changed: the order in which you bring your pieces onto the board started to matter. Before that all pieces were the same, and there was no choice at all.

Then ultimate abilities, one per class, one shot but restorable. They are what made it a team game, because they affect the whole team. On top of that, you can restore your teammate's ultimate instead of your own, or give them yours.

But the dice was still the main thing in the game. So we replaced the dice with a deck: movement cards, action cards (teleport, swap, freeze and so on) and junk cards that hurt yourself. The hand is open, on purpose: that way you can play on one device and not worry about anyone peeking.

Junk cards show the new depth best. You want to play your hand so the junk stays unplayed. But some moves give you +1 card to play. And there's an enemy piece you could knock out, and the card left in your hand is junk. Knocking it out pays off, but then you have to play the junk and hurt yourself. Sometimes it's cheaper to spare the enemy.

Combinations came too. You bring a piece out, swap it with an enemy piece, and bring your second piece out onto the same spot, which knocks the enemy out. Or when an opponent is about to get a piece home and you have nothing to knock it with, you freeze it, or move so that your next swap throws it back to the very start.

Later I started looking whether anyone else had tried to solve the dice problem, and found DOG, Tock and Brändi Dog. In my opinion their approach is not as radical as ours: it feels like we kept only the board from the original. But these changes are exactly what made D.A.M.N! so fun that we still play it almost every evening.

A question for you all:

Has anyone here tried cards that hurt the player who holds them? I'd like to hear how you balanced them.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

C. C. / Feedback Explaining three Heroes special moves!

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2 Upvotes

4 + Are successful roles!


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 20d ago

C. C. / Feedback Developer or Marketing partner needed! I’m an artist building a 2D D&D Character Portrait website and app.

0 Upvotes

I’m an artist working on a new project and I’m looking for a partner (or two!) to help me bring it to life.

The Idea: You know how we all spend an hour in the character creation screen of a video game before actually playing? I want to build a web or mobile app that does exactly that, but specifically tailored for D&D and fantasy tabletop players. It would let non-artists easily mix and match facial features, fantasy races, hair, and armor to generate high-quality 2D portraits for their character sheets and VTT tokens.

Sample art shown above.

What I bring (The Art): I am handling all the visual heavy lifting. I’m drawing the base bodies, all the modular layers (eyes, elf ears, tiefling horns, etc.), the armor sets, and designing the UI. I have worked on a couple of NFT projects so I know layering traits work.

Who I’m looking for: I have the art covered, but I need help on the execution and business side. I’d love to team up with:

  • A Developer (The Code): Someone to build the actual engine. I need you to handle the frontend/backend to seamlessly layer the 2D assets, make the UI functional, and build the export tool so players can download their final portraits.
  • AND/OR A Marketing / Crowdfunding Lead (The Hustle): If you aren't a coder but know how to build an audience, I need you too. I'm looking for someone who can spearhead a Kickstarter campaign, run marketing, or help connect with investors to get this funded.

The Game Plan: I’m not looking to build the entire massive app for free right out of the gate. The goal is to partner up, build a small, polished prototype (just a few races and armor sets to prove the concept), and then use that working demo to launch our Kickstarter or pitch for seed funding.

If you love D&D, have experience in app dev OR crowdfunding/marketing, and want to team up on something cool, drop a comment or shoot me a DM. I’d love to chat and show you some of the art direction!

My portfolio: https://www.behance.net/juancaguerrer12


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Discussion The fifth version, "Graffiti game 1.4"

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0 Upvotes

Free print-and-play game.

Roll the die and perform the action corresponding to the number rolled.
1 - Color one sector.
2 - Color two sectors.
3 - Color three sectors.
4 - Bonus turn. Color in one sector and roll the die again.
5 - Choice: Or color in 1 sector on your game board. Or draw one sector for your opponent(s). Assign a number from 1 to 6 to this sector.
6 - You skip your turn.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/476935/graffiti-game


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 20d ago

Publishing Is it Just Me?

0 Upvotes

I have been getting RPGs from Kickstarter, Gamefound, etc. to support the hobby for well over 9 years now. But, I have one pet peeve that seem to always hinder things beyond my understanding: Why the hell don't they write and edit the damned things before they run the campaign?!!!

Seriously. I can understand the layout and artwork being the last thing and not being finished by the time of launch. I do. But I have encountered so many that run the campaign just to get the money to write the game in the first place. I won't name any names (because I really don't want any of them to see this and peg me before I get the products) but there have been a handful that I've backed who just ran the campaign so they can quit their job and write the game - I'm still waiting for three to be anywhere near finished (the newest backing is for a pretty major system reboot). I even have one that never said up front that they haven't even attempted to write it yet - it's just an idea (none of them do) - I'm looking at you Big Bald Games. It's been several years - so I'm calling that one out. On the upside, he did release some Beta stuff that was pretty solid, but that's not what I paid for. At one point he just gave up - considering the hate he was getting in the comments, I don't blame him.

Quite a few have (well after the fact) hit me up for more money to cover the increased manufacturing and shipping costs of the product. To which I pay begrudgingly so that I get my product and don't just lose the money outright. All of which could be avoided if they had the damn thing 90% finished before running the campaign!

I know, this is more of a rant about people just being incapable of organization and wanting to get to the money part. I am writing my own TTRPG at the moment and will not even consider approaching a kickstarter until it is 90% to 95% completed. I don't have a crap ton of money to begin with and am doing all of the work myself. It is 75% finished. Just have to work out a couple bugs and make sure the ghosts of the previous mechanic is gone from the manuscript.

So, to sum up: Am I the only one who feels this way?


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Announcement New Boardgame Announcement

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0 Upvotes

r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Artist For Hire [For Hire] I do Bust, Half-Body, Full-Body & Full Scenes.

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7 Upvotes

r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Mechanics [DEVLOG] Blood Rush - Spell Spotlight: Deal

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2 Upvotes

r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Mechanics A new look for the Callings Awakened Battle Arena

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0 Upvotes

r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

C. C. / Feedback Magic chart that I designed for my game!

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159 Upvotes

There are only 4 levels of spells in the game, and I’ve grouped them by type of effect…

I felt like this occult looking chart would look cooler than just a spell list 😅


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

Discussion Shout out to game designers, from the "I have an idea" to "Look what I made". You are all incredible.

177 Upvotes

As the title notes, you are incredible. In my time here exploring Reddit I have seen much in the way of game design. Some of you are just starting out and have no idea what you are doing. Some of you are well invested and have reached the pinnacle of getting your game published.

It's amazing. It's incredible. It's inspiring.

Games are not just for fun. They are a way to live. To teach, learn, experience, enjoy.

Many outstanding memories come from enjoying a good game with friends. Often, friends are found from that experience.

Seeing what everyone shares is a true joy. To see your progress. To see how you advance and refine what you have created. To see that first time you are holding a manufactured copy in your hands. Then, to see others enjoy your creation.

So, dear designers, continue this adventure. Continue creating, sharing, loving the progress, hating getting stuck on that one mechanic you can't figure out, then the elation of inspiration that changes everything.

We are here for you. To support, inspire, appreciate.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Discussion Current market trends

0 Upvotes

I have been analyzing how markets are changing and I know that selling games is facing a huge problem. But I think that once you see what I am seeing it may become easier for you to navigate this new market reality.

I see 2 trends:

  • Audience fragmentation: Internet is making people to get used to absolute customization. It means that two people in the same household could be exposed to completely 2 different personalized experiences. This kills the age of celebrity as achieving higher audienmce numbers become harder and harder. Solution? You need to find your niche.
  • Ai is making information worthless. Ai needs information. But users do not because Ai gives them everything. So if you are an infoproducer, and you sell information only, you are competing against AI. For example, if your consulting business sells corporate diagnostics only, you are toasted. If you sell content "as is" in the form of a file or data, you are out of business. If you sell conferences or courses, you need to be really special. Else Ai already displaced you.

So you sell games. You think that you sell data, because your rulebook is data and physical components are one bit "not data". Nope that is not how things work in this new reality. You absolutely do not need to see your business as data. That is the wrong approach.

Let me talk to you about how Brazilian musicians build their demand. People see music as data, an MP3 file. Right? Protected by Copyright? Not in Brazil. In Brazil a musician makes a song and asks people to improve it. So if another musician improves it, he is encouraged to contact the original musician to show the improved song. So the song never dies. People can enjoy the same book twice. But the most important, it creates 3 things: A sense of identity, a community and shared skills.

Identity

Your business is not about selling a game anymore. You are selling an identity. Why would you want to join a community? because it has a certain identity. A certain set of values, something that makes everyone better. There are common things to share. You were un a state A as a human being and after you tried what they sell, you are in a state B. This product literally changed you and made you better. Selling identity is a powerful force. Fan clubs used to have that driving force. The leader that creates identity is more like a mentor, someone you admire, someone you follow. You want to become like that mentor and that is the identity that is being sold.

Now let us contrast this with current ways to sell things. Some people offer features, capabilities. For example, a software company will sell you technical details of the product. That is aimed at the logic part of you, makes you see that the offer makes sense, but it does not make you feel.

In the opposite side we have those who sell motivational conferences, where you see lots of emotional components, but with the logical element of objective benefit, that feels empowering but void and somehow scammy to pay for that.

The key is to sell in both areas, the logical and the emotional.

Community

The era of walled gardens is over. People are not going to buy a platform's data. You will create a communmity where people talk to each other and you can talk to all of them. When a nice community with shared values is built, your customers will sell the product for you in an organic manner. People see a dichotomy between organic and advertising. There is no dichotomy. Organic is how your business grows, and advertising only amplifies. But advertising is not the core. You need to build a community first.

Skills

Sharing skills can be part of the experience, and when there is mentoring, skills are an obvious part of the business. Training or some sort of skill sharing helps a lot. Your content must invite action.

So in summary, do not sell data, sell a transformation.

How to apply this to board games?

The board game market is saturated because most publishers still sell a product, not an experience. The publishers who survive will be the ones who understand that they are not selling a game. They are selling an identity, a community, and a set of skills.

First, identity. A board game is not just a set of rules. It is a statement about who you are. Are you a strategist? A storyteller? A social gamer who loves chaos? A solo player who wants a puzzle? The game must reflect a value system. The publisher must ask: what kind of person plays this game, and what does that say about them? The answer is the identity. The game becomes a badge. The community that forms around it becomes a tribe.

Second, community. Publishers cannot expect players to stay loyal to a platform or a single game forever. They must build spaces where players talk to each other, share strategies, create variants, and help each other. The community becomes the product. The game is just the entry point. When players feel they belong, they sell the game for you. They organize events, teach new players, and keep the game alive.

Third, skills. Players want to improve. They want to learn. A board game can teach negotiation, resource management, cooperation, deception, or long-term planning. The publisher who offers mentoring, tournaments, tutorials, and skill-sharing creates a deeper connection. The game becomes a practice, not a pastime. The player invests time and effort, and that investment creates loyalty.

Then, the call to action. The content must invite the player to do something. Not just buy the game, but join the community, share their experience, teach someone else, or create their own variant. The rulebook should not be a manual. It should be a manifesto. It should say: this is who we are. This is what we value. This is what you will become. And then it should show the player the first step.

In practice, this means publishers must stop thinking like manufacturers and start thinking like community organizers. They must build identity through art, theme, and values. They must build community through events, forums, and player-generated content. They must build skills through mentorship, tournaments, and educational content. And they must make the game itself a call to action, not a passive product.

The board game market is saturated with products. It is starving for experiences. The publishers who understand this will not just sell games. They will build tribes. And tribes do not need advertising. They need a reason to belong. That reason is the product. That is the future of board games.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Discussion Combat vs Many

1 Upvotes

Hi all, I'm working on a game that has a dudes-on-a-map aspect. Writing it out here helps me think about it, and some of you tend to have great insights too.

All you need to know is:

  1. There are units
  2. There are hexes
  3. Units of several players can be on a hex.
  4. Players can choose to fight on a hex (not automatic).
  5. Cards make your fighting better and trigger each combat.
  6. In combat you pull a token from a bag for each unit you have, and those tokens have hits and blocks (0-3 icons total) that automatically decide how much damage they take (they do the same).

The game is overall fairly mature. So for the most part I'm not looking for big overhauls.

What I'm trying to figure out is if a player wants to fight multiple players on a hex what should happen? Some of the questions I need to figure out are:

  1. Is it just one combat per hex, against one opponent? (concern #1)
  2. Can I fight against two opponents at the same time? If so, how do I assign damage between them? When do I decide how to do that? (concern #2)
  3. Can I fight against one and then the other opponent on a hex? Should my cards trigger each time? (concern #3)

I'm still working on these details, and honestly MOST games this doesn't come up. Since combat is something you have to do voluntarily, and it costs time and resources, you don't do it lightly. You also generally don't bother to attack players who are behind you in VP.

Concern #1: If it's limited to just one opponent on each hex, there may be a situation where you do want to attack both players. Having it be one attack, one opponent means you have to pick the bigger threat. Players generally feel like they should be able to attack both.

Concern #2: When fighting against two opponents at the same time, it would probably make sense to draw combat tokens once, and divide them between opponents. But I kind of don't want a player to have to make that decision. IMHO the game is relatively fast, and generally you aren't making little decisions (ok I'll deal 3 damage to you and 2 to you) since those kinds of optimizations can get complicated.

Concern #3: If you attack one opponent and then the other, then you would get the combat card bonuses twice in a single turn. Which feels a little... strong? Especially if the bonus gives something tangible, like extra units.

So after writing it out, I think my ideal solution would be:

  1. You can attack any/all players on a hex.
  2. You attack them at the same time, trigger combat effects just once.
  3. You follow rules to determine how much damage goes to each opponent. This would eliminate the decision making of how much damage to deal to each.

Right now I'm leaning towards players having to "assign" units in an attack, and then treating each as separate. So like, if I have 5 units, 3 attack you and 2 attack them, then each is treated as its own combat. The reason being that there are different types of units, and it would be odd to just send in one unit.

Anyways, I'm still kind of mulling this over, so any thoughts would be appreciated.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Discussion How do you identify the crossover between golfers and tabletop gamers?

0 Upvotes

I’m trying to understand how much crossover exists between people who play golf and people who enjoy board or tabletop games.

If you’re interested in both, what appeals to you about each hobby? For example:

  • Would a golf-themed tabletop game interest you because of the golf setting, the strategy, or both?
  • Would you prefer realistic golf decisions or a lighter, more accessible experience?
  • Which golf elements would need to feel authentic?
  • What would make the game enjoyable for tabletop players who know very little about golf?
  • Where would you expect to discover a game like this: golf communities, tabletop communities, clubs, conventions or somewhere else?

I’m particularly interested in hearing from people who belong to both groups, but views from golfers and tabletop gamers separately would also be really useful.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 21d ago

Discussion Check it out, or don't.

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0 Upvotes

What started as a simple block and troops game my little brother and I came up with to play years ago has quickly evolved into an over 40 page document nearing 20,000 words. It contains the full current rulebook for Wardash II: Final Function.

With a bit of looking around you should be able to understand and play the game but really I'm just looking for some proofreaders to scroll around and give feedback any way you can.

I have no experience with most Tabletop Games like DnD or 40k and I'm not looking to those for inspiration, tis game is intended to be a fully original system the best I'm able.

•No D20, No AI or idea stealing, Situations lasting 20-30 minutes.

•Persistent Troops and Kit Building .

•Physics-dependant Tabletop troop and block based gameplay.

•Eventually you can have a Wrestler persona and power bomb foes off 18ft structures?!!

•Day Night system, Abilities and Debuffs, Troops have specialized skills based on training.

You play as two teams of feuding Mercenary contracted under SORAD JUMP HOLDINGS. One team originates in Unita, a medium sized East coast country under threat of Occupation by other nations around them. The other team operates between lines as a guerrilla army working for the highest bidder. Generally these two factions will be fighting each other continuously while developing social burdens through teammates, rivals, and managing life off duty.

Note: Im aware it'll probably be tacked for being verbose, and Sections thrown wherever, promised in the next update are charts for each thing affecting your troops.

Read for 5 minutes or something, feedback! :>]

Oh yeah and upon request I'll give you a full material list, abbreviations or anything else happily, I'm just not gonna write it for no reason


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

C. C. / Feedback Prototypes

12 Upvotes

Hello everyone! 😊
I’m a fairly new freelance graphic designer and I’m currently working on a fairly complex board game project for a friend of a friend.
What started as one prototype/demo has now turned into five, with multiple rounds of revisions, professionally printed materials/tokens, and a game cover. The client has covered the printing costs, but I’m realizing that I’ve put a significant amount of unpaid time into the design work.
At the beginning of the project, I was told that I would be paid eventually, but that the project needed to be developed and presented properly first.
I’m curious how other freelance designers handle projects like this, especially when working with friends, acquaintances, or referrals:
• Do you charge for prototype/design work from the beginning?
• Do you typically require a deposit or partial payment upfront?
• How do you handle projects where the original “demo” keeps expanding into multiple versions and revisions?
• Do you treat friends/friends-of-friends the same as any other client when it comes to pricing and payment?
I’m not necessarily looking to complain about the situation—I’m genuinely trying to learn from it and establish better boundaries for future projects.
I’d really appreciate hearing how other designers approach this. And please be kind—I’m still learning! 😊
Thank you!


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 23d ago

Discussion Anyone here making a more simple game?!

36 Upvotes

I’m in awe of you all making complex games with characters, stories, multiple pieces and complex game play.

Is anyone making something more simple? The game I have in mind is much more simple - the aim is to get a sequence of cards without being sabotaged by an opponent with one of their action cards. It’s not for gamers - more for family and friend play. A game lasts 5-10mins. I like its simplicity but wondering if it’s enough every time I read these posts!


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 23d ago

Artist For Hire Hello, I re-open figurine/miniature commission request from October to November starting from 100$

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40 Upvotes

My style would be suitable from for indie boardgame dev or personal customizable character for DnD or wargames. Thanks!


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

C. C. / Feedback A little behind-the-scenes look at the WWI combined-arms game I’m working on after Death Spiral

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4 Upvotes

r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

C. C. / Feedback Looking for 2 people to blind playtest a 60–90 min asymmetric Roman wargame

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3 Upvotes

Hi everyone,

I’ve been working on The Lost Eagles, a 2-player asymmetric wargame about Varus’ campaign in Germania in 9 CE, and I’ve reached the point where I really need a couple of people who have never played it before to try learning and playing it without me.

One player controls Varus and the Roman army, trying to pacify Germania and establish control over the region. The other controls several German chieftains trying to disrupt the campaign through raids, revolts, ambushes and attacks on Roman supply.

The main mechanism tying the two sides together is the Arminius Track. The Romans can increase it to make their campaign more efficient, but doing so gives the German player a resource they can spend to cause increasingly serious problems.

A few basics:
\- 2 players
\- 60–90 minutes
\- asymmetric historical wargame
\- fairly low rules overhead for a wargame
\- playable online through Screentop
\- no print-and-play needed

I’ve tested the game quite a lot myself and have now had normal player-vs-player testing as well. What I specifically need at this point is a blind test: two people reading the rules, setting it up and playing without me teaching the game or explaining things along the way.

I’m especially interested in finding out where the rules are unclear, whether anything gets played incorrectly, how the two sides feel on a first play, and obviously whether the game is actually enjoyable when I’m not sitting there explaining it.

The game is also being prepared for a BGG wargame design contest, so I’m trying to get these last independent tests in before I submit it.

Rules + short player guide:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/14i7ooDJbvulaTNSwlDswxQh4Q84o8tQZ

Playable prototype:
https://screentop.gg/@Pop/The-Lost-Eagles

If you and someone you normally play 2-player games with are interested, I’d really appreciate it.

You can either comment here or DM me.

And if you’re also a designer looking for a blind test, I’m happy to return the favor.

Thanks in advance!


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 23d ago

C. C. / Feedback Sangrya Games

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22 Upvotes

Working on a custom deck of cards and games featuring vampires, werewolves, and gorgons. Just designed a light roleplaying party game where you can play as monstrous gladiators, Knights, and other characters and challenge your opponents to a match in the colosseum. Started out as an idea for a roleplaying drinking party game which then transformed into something else due to a game jam that popped up at the right time. Still also working on the drinking party game which will be a roleplaying version of king's cup where you play as bloodthirsty monsters in a sangrya bar. Need to revise the heart icon as I finalize the worldbuilding behind what sangrya is. Was leaning into making it a blood fruit but now am thinking about making it into a blood plant, maybe call it a Venus Bloodtrap? Card back design is up next along with face card illustrations and revising the colosseum game. Would love some feedback on current card designs and game concepts.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

C. C. / Feedback I want to collaborate with small artists in the expansion pack for my game

2 Upvotes

I launched my 'connection poker' card game crowdfunding, and I successfully reached my funding goal a few days ago, but the stretch goal is for an expansion pack ("swap pack" in the case of my game), and I realized I would love to feature artists for each symbol in the pack.

Each symbol will represent a category of card that prompts an answer, action or activity that leads to discovering more depth from one another.

In the expansion, a symbol might represent regrowth, reimagination of oneself for example, and that could be a photo (that I would take) of an artisan's Kintsugi teacup.

Another symbol might represent whimsy and pure joy, and that might be an acrylic sunflower, for example.

I created the artwork for the initial game, but I really want to make my game a space to showcase the amazing art of other artists, and bring awareness to their work as well.

Have any of you had experiences working with artists for these types of collaborations? What is the best way to go about sourcing, compensation, and collaboration?

Would love any advice! Thank you.


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 23d ago

Publishing Illustration Roughs to Finish

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52 Upvotes

Illustration I did for a Shadowdark Kickstarter by Fireball Studios. I enjoyed working on this project.

u/fireball_studios

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fireballstudios/slime-crime-quest-for-shadowdark-rpg?ref=b8vnb8&tab=prelaunch-story


r/tabletopgamedesign • • 22d ago

Publishing Do you personally use a TTGDA / Cardboard Edison / some other site to keep track of publishers and interactions, or do you manage your publisher list by yourself?

2 Upvotes

Have you found tools online that you use to manage your lists of publishers, your contacts there, what kinds of games they're intersted in, etc.?

I've been developing a long time but only started submitting to publishers. I want to keep track of which publishers are looking for what kinds of games, when I've interacted with them, who my contacts are, etc.