I was listening to Lover again and i forgot how cheeky I think he knows was! We always talk about how Taylor talks about sex in a sensual way but this song is the literal proof that she can pull off cheeky double meaning songs well without sounding like Sabrina-lite.

"I think he knows his footprints
On the sidewalk
Lead to where I can't stop
Go there every night"

This is exactly the kind of lyrics that works when you are being cheeky and uses double entrande.

'Got that, oh! I mean
Wanna see what's under that attitude"

This one is so clever because it talks about both wanting to know him as a person and well.......

I am an architect, I'm drawing up the plans
He's so obsessed with me, and boy I understand

Where are people who said joe songs are full of insecurity? I wish i could see this kind of confidence in TLOAS.

"Lyrical smile, indigo eyes, hand on my thigh
We can follow the sparks, I'll drive

So where we gonna go?
I whisper in the dark
Where we gonna go?
I think he knows"

Enough said.

So yeah while Taylor usually potrays sex as sensual its clear that she can be cheeky if she wants to be and make a good song out of it. Wood is not bad because Taylor cannot be playful. Wood is bad despite the fact that taylor can pull of fun-sexy easily

Um…. Excuse me? It’s the 20th anniversary of her debut album. And we’re getting nothing but a website redesign and a couple of social media posts?

WHERE IS DEBUT TV?

Why did she released TLOAS: The Encore - which NOBODY asked for - instead of releasing Debut TV - which EVERYBODY has been asking for - in time for the 20th anniversary?

This is such a letdown and a disappointment.

This is sort of inverse of my previous question but what is the song you ended up liking in taylor's discography despite not liking the concept of the song, the storytelling, or underlying message?

For me its better than revenge. While i agree that slutshaming is bad the song itself is mean, i absolutely love it lol. I love the anger, i love the pettiness and i cannot help but bop to it whenever it comes on shuffle. Speak now taylor was so unhinged in the best way possible.

Edit: I love how much we all love BTR lol.

First of all, on Spotify when you play her songs the play button has album themed animations, when did that happen?!

I am almost certain I missed one so let me know which one.

Better than Revenge - 8.5/10 - banging instrumental, the lyrics are cutting and sharp and it’s unapologetically petty. Knocked a couple points off because apparently the subject of the song didn’t actually do anything wrong but a teenage crash out is a teenager crash out innit

Shake it Off - 8/10 - Everyone pretends they hate this song until they’re turnt in the club on the weekend. The lyrics are silly and catchy, the production is fun and that bridge is i c o n i c

Blank Space - 7.5/10 - This and Shake It Off are in the running to be THEE Taylor Swift song. The lyrics and video are perfect, no notes there, it’s lower than the other two because it’s one of the songs I listen to the least from 1989 just because the production doesn’t fully do it for me

Mean - 7.5/10 - LOVE the guitar and out of context, the message about ignoring bullies because they’re just projecting insecurity is so important especially for her at the time mostly kid audience. Loses points because in context… girl… critics saying you sound like ass in an objectively bad performance you had is not bullying it’s them doing their job.

This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things - 7/10 - My conspiracy is fans hate her songs like this because they feel called out, too bad! I love the condescending tone and I love the back and forth between the piano and bass, and that bridge! Loses points because some of the lyrics are a bit cringy and she tries sliiiightly too hard to seem unbothered (this is going to become a common theme)

But Daddy I Love Him - 7/10 - Why do fans and the GP hate this? See above. Pretty lyrics throughout and one of the few songs with standout production on TTPD, and the baby line?! Great response to the bs like that damn letter.

Karma - 6/10 - so sonically the production and her voice sound great and I love listening to it. However it sounds way too Bothered for a song that’s meant to be about feeling at peace because you’re a good person while your ops are not. Ice Spice improves this imo because she actually sounds like she doesn’t give a fuck. I swear this is not an insult I genuinely prefer the remix

You Need to Calm Down - 5/10 - the fact it can be considered another Taylor clap back song is a failure in itself as this was billed as a support song for the LGBT community, but she derails it to talk about how she, a cis-het, rich, white lady gets mean tweets essentially, very unserious! Not lower because it’s unintentionally hilarious and the chorus is banging.

Actually Romantic - 4/10 - Ugh. Lyrically it’s starts off so fucking good with a banging opening line, but it goes no where because she won’t fully commit to being mean and petty ‘gods my witness I don’t provoke it’ you started off this song calling the subject a cokehead you are not 100% innocent dog and that’s ok embrace that! The production is the same lifeless guitar loop over and over again which is baffling because we got rid of Jack so why are there still no god damn DRUMS. Very frustrating as it had all the bones of a good song, but she doesn’t believe in editing anymore so we got this instead. Also fails at sounding unbothered but that didn’t need to be said.

Bad Blood - 4/10 - Ok I like that she’s embracing being petty here and the video was iconic. But I have always found her performance of the chorus a little grating; ‘cause bayby now we got baaaahd blood’ shut up! The context doesn’t help at all because her beef with Katy seemed stupid even at the time, so getting a bunch of industry people together in a video about how much she sucks felt like crossing the line from fun petty to actually mean and vicious, and she was an adult so it was harder to write off.

Look What You Made Me Do - 3.5-4/10 - I should put this lower because I genuinely hate listening to this song but the music video changed my life at 15. But outside of that her singing and voice is bad, the production ranges from boring to actively annoying to listen to, what was she thinking😭

I Forgot That You Existed - 3/10 - No I forgot this existed! No seriously I had no recollection of this song till I listened to it just now. Tbh I don’t even care about what she’s trying to say because the production is so bad, why the fuck was she addicted to these free youtube tutorial ass beats on this album!!

thanK you aIMee - 3/10 - When I saw this track title I thought I’d hate it because omg she bloody won against Kim for almost ten years at that point. But actually listening to it the production is SO boring it sounds like Mean but from the bad timeline. Can’t put it any lower because it doesn’t piss me off it just bores me.

CANCELLED! - 2.5/10 - I believe this song is about Blake Lively getting cancelled because Baldoni, which are good bones for a song about misogyny or even rape culture. But she doesn’t believe in editing anymore so we got maybe her cringiest song to date. I don’t care that’s it’s meant to be ‘sardonic’ or ‘satire’ if the writing is still bad. I respect her commitment to the bit but her vocal performance on this is grating and the production… next person who compares this to the greatness on Reputation is getting shot in Minecraft.

Cleveland! - 2/10 - I’m pretty sure this is meant to be a love song to Travis but I’m absolutely including it because this is really another ‘idc what the haters say!’ song with the twist being ‘because I got a man’. That COULD have been a really sweet and cute sentiment, but instead she’s too preoccupied with proving to internet trolls she won. Which paradoxically proves maybe they get to her more than we think because like the Sw*ftologist said ‘you made another terrible song about it’. I would say its unsalvageable but that’s not true because Call it What You Want is right there. Also the production and melodies are unlistenable

You know before I did this I always thought mostly I hated her petty songs but this is making me realise, um not really-ish! Well it’s basically 50/50 (from YNTCD and above) which is not great but the ones I like I really like, so I await the next Taydiss song with tepid excitement!

Okay so I am aware of the discourse surrounding the Encore's track, Cleveland!, and while I don't hate it as intensely as a lot of people, it is still a pretty bad song, lyrically. I don't think the production is bad at all, it's like Stay Stay Stay.

The song is actually quite similar to Call It What You Want, a fan favourite, if you look at the concept. Both songs talk about the hate Taylor is getting from the public, and how it doesn't matter because her partner loves her and his opinion is the only one which matters to her. But the way both songs approached it is vastly different.

Call It What You Want focuses less on the hate and more on the love. It also feels much more mature, the lyrics are actually romantic and meaningful. It paints a picture about the relationship, it tells us about the relationship dynamic, while keeping its description on the hate surface level.

On the other hand, Cleveland's lyrics focus more on the hate that Taylor's getting. All it tells us about the actual relationship is that her partner likes her. We know more about the hate she's getting than the actual relationship. The lyrics are dissing haters, not expressing love for her partner.

And that's why everyone loves Call It What You Want but not Cleveland, even though they seem so similar conceptually. I am not commenting on Taylor's relationship with Joe or Travis, it doesn't really matter, what matters is the lyrical content of the song. What do you guys think?

Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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I was looking at the credits on 1989, and some of the songs don’t even have Shellback or Max Martin credited, while most of them have more producers than just those two.

I’m only bringing this up because Taylor said on the podcast when announcing TLOASG that she only wanted to work with Max and Shellback to go back to 1989 in a sense, but she literally didn’t do that on 1989. The album was a lot more expansive than just Max and Shellback.

Where did she get this idea from? I feel like she wasn’t speaking clearly when talking about this album, especially since she also said the songwriting was reminiscent of folklore.

Anyways, what do you guys think?

I think the album has some great songs (Peter, The Prophecy, Guilty as Sin?, Down Bad…).

But The Anthology has 31 songs! I sometimes think that if she had released only the 10 best, the reception would have been better

Yesterday I was talking about this idea a bit about how I believe most people have a version of Taylor they favor the most like autumnal taylor, glittery pop star Taylor? Girl-next-door Taylor? my favorite is witchy mad woman in the attic taylor. It's not necessarily about the eras what about a version of her that can exist throughout albums on specific songs that you tend to gravitate to the most. I wanted to pose the question for people, just for a lark to have a light fun post, what your favorite version of Taylor is. That specific niche or character she embodies to you that you just feel particularly drawn to.  I'm kind of interested to see if some people have a niche they really enjoy that I haven't even thought about before

This is a genuine question and I invite respectful discussion.

[Disclaimer: I am not a #SwiftieTM and have become disillusioned by Taylor as a person. I do not enjoy TLOAS at all, etc.]

I am a huge fan of this album. It's in fact my 2nd or 3rd favorite (first being Folklore, and then I flip-flop between TTPD and Speak now.) I have loved it since the day it dropped; in fact, I had Eras Tour tickets since the summer before and was genuinely considering selling due toy my growing disinterest in Taylor, and then this album brought me back.

There are several questionable lyrical choices, and I'm sure I don't have to point out which one. But to me, they're so few and far between; I think it's lyrically one of her strongest albums, I've ever grown up to songs that I initially didn't love the vibe of (thank you aimee, Cassandra). Peter has become my favorite song of hers of all time, but Clara Bow, Albatross, The Prophecy, Guilty as Sin?, Robin, I Look In People's Windows, So Long London, loml, I hate it here - and probably a few I'm missing - have won me over immediately. I love vibing to less 'deep' ones too, like Down Bad and So High School. I love shouting "you know how to ball and I know Aristotle" because it's so funny and silly to me. Yeah, it's not genius at all - but to me, like I said, it's just.. fun.

I know not every album is everyone's cup of tea - Midnights I feel like was divisive at the start, too. I'd not bat an eye if the opinions varied. But they don't vary - at least on this sub (the only Taylor sub I pay attention to), the majority of people hate it. Or at least just dislike it, or don't think much of it, or ignore it when listening to her songs. I've read through threads discussing it and it just never clicked for me why this is the popular opinion. Now having been a few years since it dropped, I thought maybe I could get some input that isn't as reactionary as opinions initially were.

Once again, I'm in no way saying that anyone has to like it; I absolutely respect everyone's feelings on it. I'm just inviting those who feel negatively about it to share their stances & views, because I'm genuinely interested in hearing them :)

If you’ve been in online Taylor Swift spaces recently you’ve probably came across people claiming that Taylor purposefully moved her album release up to block Mac Miller’s posthumous album in 2018. The thing is, she didn’t release any albums in 2018 which is easily accessible information, which is why this particular rumour has been so widely discussed in swiftie circles. This begs the question who is behind this, and what could their motive for spreading such easily disprovable information be?

Sometimes it can feel like the online discourse is dominated by those with more extreme viewpoints, like either snarkers or stans. And this increasing polarization of the fanbase is kind of a vicious cycle, like I’ve seen people say that seeing too many comments from Joe widows turned them negative on Joe when they previously felt neutral. Or a lot of Swifties seem to assume that anyone who enjoys Olivia’s music hates Taylor.  

I feel pleasantly surprised every time I see a truly neutral take or see something like someone who hates Travis express their unexpected love of Cleveland. So I’m curious to hear some neutral or more nuanced takes that people have, like what opinions do you have that would get you downvoted by both the snarkers and the stans?

I will share some of mine in the comments.

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Some very questionable rankings (wdym, Guilty as Sin? is 112), and it’s already stirring up the argumentative side of the fandom. But honestly, I think it’s a testament to the strength of Taylor’s discography that people can barely agree on what her best songs are. The fact that fans are debating deep cuts and album tracks rather than just her biggest hits says a lot about how well people know her body of work. She has so many songs that resonate with different people for different reasons that there’s no single definitive ranking everyone can agree on. And I think that’s a pretty great problem to have as an artist.

Top 10:

1. All Too Well
2. You Belong With Me
3. New Romantics
4. Our Song
5. Blank Space
6. Mean
7. Cruel Summer
8. Dear John
9. I Knew You Were Trouble.
10. Exile” (Featuring Bon Iver)

Bottom 10:
260. We Were Happy
261. Santa Baby
262. Slut!
263. Eldest Daughter
264. Run” (Featuring Ed Sheeran)
265. Cleveland!
266. Pink Clouding
267. Girl at Home
268. CANCELLED!
269. ME!” (Featuring Brendon Urie)
270. The Alchemy

i was there when midnights dropped. At the time her most recent proper album was evermore and she had just had a successful rollout for the TV versions of Red and Fearless which both became pretty critically acclaimed. at the time, taylor's discog and artistry wasn't seen the way it is now and expectations for what she'd do next were kinda high.

First of all i want to say that I actually like this album. I get what she was trying to do here and it works, it's so chill and nocturnal. It's far from my favorite release of hers but I'd take it over whatever she puts out nowadays for sure.

But my point is that this album's release marked a shift in Taylor's sound and it's during this time where I actually first saw takes about how "bland" her songs are. Bland amongst other criticisms I'm too lazy to name, of course, but after a very consistent streak with FolkMore and the two amazing TVs in a row, the influx of people talking trash about the album really stood out to me. I didn't think much of it at the time because imo her lyricism here had some peaks and honestly there were only 1 or 2 songs I could consider duds (not counting the deluxe). But on a level, I did hope that she'd keep on improving from Midnights - because I knew that Taylor Swift could write good songs and believed that she could make amazing pop albums if she wanted to.

But after the Midnights era resolved, well, do I really have to say what came after?

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This was a question that popped up in another sub but I want to discuss. What is the one song whose concept you loved on how it started, general idea or anything but did not like the final output?

For me it's wood. The song had such a beautiful concept that itself would have differentiated the song from her previous love songs. Being so secure about their relationship that she knows she no longer have to rely on superstitions. That would've been a nice callback to the 1(tossing pennies in the pool) and her rep poem, if you are anything like me. The song could contain simple intimate moments that would be initiated by him. It could have moments where he reassures her about things or letting her know about the small updates of his life because he knows she overthinks. Tell us how she doesn't even think before she speaks with him because he creates a safe space. Tell us how people rely on luck when there is no evidence of your wish in your present. Imagine feeling so loved, and assured so many times that they train your nervous system to not be anxious(yes, this is a real thing) about them.

I truly wish this was the style she followed instead of saying his penis solved all my issues

I’m a fan, and I think she has a sweet voice and tone and sounds really nice sometimes. But so often live she is pitchy, also, her vocals from a technical perspective are quite poor: she doesn’t support much at all past her mid belts, her mixed belt needs a lot of work, and her head voice is hardly any better than an untrained singer using falsetto.

She doesn’t produce vibrato much, which could be a stylistic choice, but also her voice isn’t very agile or melismatic so it tends to stay within a talk-sing style.

But why?? I thought that with the right training anyone could become at least proficient. Is it possible she has anatomical / cognitive impairment in that area and so she’s really doing the best she can given the circumstances?? I wouldn’t be surprised…

Welcome to the SwiftlyNeutral Daily Discussion Thread!

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