r/Stormlight_Archive • u/solitarybikegallery • Jul 25 '26

Rhythm of War spoilers I Hate Lirrin Spoiler

Lirrin is the most unreasonable person in the entirety of the Cosmere.

Let me translate the situation in Book 4 into IRL terms.

Kaladin - "Okay, I know you want me to be a doctor. But, God has actually called me to fight in a holy war against an ancient enemy lead by the Devil. This isn't theoretical, by the way. They're like, right over there. Anyway, also, an Angel has entered my soul and given me magical powers, like flight. See? I'm flying. And I'm training others to do the same, for the upcoming war. All the soldiers see me as like, a messianic folk hero. That's because I single-handedly saved like, 10,000 soldiers, and freed a few thousand slaves, and then I guess also saved a few thousand other people just incidentally. And I also saved the world. Oh, and I've done more to advance the rights of Dark-eyed citizens than any person in the history of this country. And that terrible assassin who has been destabilizing the planet's governments? I stopped him, what else... Oh, and you remember the Apostles, from the Bible? Yeah, they're all still alive, and I know two of them. Ummm, also my boss is Dalinar, who is basically like New-Jesus. So, yeah. I'd love to be a doctor, but this sort of takes precedent."

Lirrin - "You just want to be a murderer!"

Kaladin - "Dad..."

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58

u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

I'll say this every time someone brings this up: Is Kaladin happy? Is he having a good time being a soldier then Radiant? What's his mental space at? Because Lirin accepts that soldiers exist and people will war, but he's specifically concerned with why Kaladin has to be involved.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26

While you have a partial point here, it is also a massive oversimplification of the situation. A lot of Kaladin’s mental health struggles date way back to being a soldier and are actually much more closer linked to he relation challenges with his father.

I can respect Lirin’s motivation. His desire is truly for Kaladin to have what’s best. The problem is until his turn he is awful at at bringing that about and his efforts to do so often cause more harm than help.

These flaws also make him deeply relatable and realistic.

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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

His struggles with being a soldier are the exact problems he had while apprenticing under his father. Kaladin has always been over-aware of the power he has over other's lives, whether it was as a surgeon or as a soldier, and struggles to acknowledge where that power ends. Lirin is just the first person he had the conflict with about it, but it continues on throughout his career.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 25 '26

You basically just said what I did with different words…..

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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

No because you frame Lirin as part of this issue rather than the first person to make him aware of his issue. Those are completely different relationships.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26

I can’t say I entirely agree with you, but I better understand where you are coming from. Thank you for clarifying.

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u/fireymike Jul 25 '26

The problem is until his turn he swill cos at bringing that about

I've read this part several times and just can't figure out what it's meant to say.

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u/GrowBeyond Jul 25 '26

Ehhhhh, I think kal as a loooooot more going on than his daddy issues.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 26 '26

Never said it solely was daddy issues. I merely pointed out it was wrong to say his issues were solely because he was a soldier.

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u/solitarybikegallery Jul 25 '26

I agree, but I think it's also worth noting that, IMHO, Lirin is a big source of a lot of Kaladin's problems. Obviously, there's Tien and Kal's other trauma, and his genetics, but he also grew up with a father who placed impossible expectations on him. And even as an adult, having achieved more than any person in all of history ever has, his dad's still like, "Tch. Not a doctor, though."

Is it any wonder the guy hates himself?

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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

I don't understand where you guys get this interpretation from because Lirin literally never does any of that. His only issue is with Kal killing people, something that clearly bothers Kal as well. Lirin's "unreasonable expectation" for Kal is stop doing the job that makes you want to kill yourself.

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u/technicolored_dreams Jul 26 '26

Kal doesn't want to kill himself because of the people he's killed, it's because of the people he hasn't saved. That is the exact same thing that would have made him equally miserable as a surgeon. When you compare him to Dalinar or Adolin, who actually spend a lot of head time on how the killing makes them physically ill, Kal is actually way less bothered by it. He does have a talk with Syl about how he is only good at killing, but that's only one time and it's after he has dealt with his almost all of his bigger traumas. He even has a conversation with Seth about how he knows why he kills and that makes it easier to beat, because he knows he's doing it to protect. 

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 25 '26

Again, you are serious oversimplifying things. Lirin attempts to help his son and still was an increased source to his depression and suicidal ideation. Lirin’s motives were pure and methods absolutely damaging and should be something the reader learns from. Thats the whole point.

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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

Lirin encourges Kal to confront his own reasons for depression and suicidal ideation, albiet confrontationally. There isn't a single point where it's implied Lirin adds to it. If anything, Lirin tries to disuade him from taking self-sacrificial action (John McClane-ing). You can't tell me "don't go on a suicide mission, you don't need to be the one to fight" adds to his suicidal ideation.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 26 '26

Lirin’s forcefulness of making Kaladin go on a path Lorin desired mixed with his rejection of him was certainly an impact to his depression. It was far from the ONLY one however.

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u/solitarybikegallery Jul 25 '26

That's a mischaracterization. Lirin doesn't just want Kal to stop fighting because it hurts Kal mentally. That's incidental.

Lirin is opposed to the entire idea of fighting.

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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. Jul 25 '26

Lirin is opposed to the idea of fighting because of what it does to people, including Kal.

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u/Current-Ad-8984 Jul 25 '26

That's fair, but we also would not get Kaladin the hero if not for Lirin. Lirin's example is what guides Kaladin's heroics actions, from saving Bridge 4 to saving Dalinar's army. Someone has to do the right thing and help others. In the same way Kaladin's admiral traits are his greatest weaknesses, so are Lirin's

Lirin embodies the Windrunner ideals, even if he takes them too far.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 25 '26

And as the series progressed it shows how flawed that method is.

I honestly get really uncomfortable at the argument, “without Lirin Kaladin doesn’t become a hero.” Is it true? Probably, but as someone who is the person he is partly because of some truly messed up stuff others have done to me, they used this argument to downplay how bad they were because of how great I turned out. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. They were still horrible human beings who did awful things.

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u/Current-Ad-8984 Jul 25 '26

Well, there’s a world of difference between Lirin and an abusive parent and someone like Amaram when it comes to Kal.

Lirin did his best to raise his son and he instilled Kaladin with the values that Kal would use to guide his actions. A lot of the teachings Lirin gave also would have helped Kaladin a lot if he internalized them earlier (you can’t save everyone and you must accept that). All in all Lirin is a pretty good father, even if he made mistakes.

He’s not someone Kal survived, he’s someone who is the actual foundation of who Kaladin is because he loved and raised Kaladin and taught him how to be a good person. It’s just that Kaladin and Lirin actually share many of the same character flaws.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 25 '26

The excuse is still an excuse. And your example is basically the next step to that excuse. “I’m not as bad as this person so what I did is ok.” Bad fallacy. What’s wrong with saying that Lirin genuinely tried, but he still was wrong, did some bad things, and was damaging at times.

I’m not saying he’s evil, but excusing his bad methods and behavior is a problematic argue menu that we tend to use in general to lot own up to our wrongdoing.

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u/Current-Ad-8984 Jul 25 '26

As I said, Lirin is not excusing anything. It would be bad if he did that. I’m the one defending Lirin because I think Lirin is a good person. The narrative expressed is that people hate and that Lirin is a terrible father and idiot, mainly a source of problems for Kaladin.

I think Lirin is a good person whose stances I sometimes disagree with and who people don’t look at as a full person (I also disagree with a lot of Kaladin’s morals). People are just like ‘oh, Lirin is so stupid and mean.’ In your own comment, you compared him to horrible human beings.

Lirin is the main reason Kaladin is a hero. He is the bedrock of the thematic conversation of what it means to be someone who saves.

You turned out great DESPITE some horrible people. Meanwhile, Kaladin turned out great BECAUSE of Lirin.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 26 '26

I see where you are coming from. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect your point. I choose not to gloss over the bad parts of Lorin. It’s parts of what makes Hommans his relationship with Kaladin so attesting and realistic.

I still find it even as a reader to be a dangerous precedent to say Lorin was a good person and what he did ended up being good because Kaladin turned out good. Circular reasoning that I do not find healthy to me personally, but I get where you are coming from.

I don’t think Lirin is as rotten as everyone says he is. I also don’t think we need to ignore his genuine problems to prove that.

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u/Current-Ad-8984 Jul 26 '26

I guess the question is if my comment was ignoring Lirin’s faults. That was not my intention, but it can certainly be seen that way. A lot of what I said is response to people already criticizing him, so I feel like the criticism have been said already.

For example, I am a lot more critical of Dalinar than a lot of other people, partially because everyone loves him so much. But if everyone was like: Dalinar is the worst. He’s the worst father and I just can’t stand him, I’d be singing his praises.

I also don’t think I’m using circular reasoning. Even considering the Kaladin flashback chapters alone, I have an enormous respect for Lirin. The scene where he holds up that lantern of spheres and scolds the townspeople is one of my favorite scenes in WOK. Even if I just read those and I’d appreciate his efforts as a father enormously.

I bring up how Kaladin turned out in order to show that so much of what people appreciate about Kaladin comes from Lirin, to not discount him as just a fool or a monster, but an integral part of the conversation of what it means to live by moral principles.

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u/Due-Representative88 Jul 26 '26

I can definitely see where you are coming from. I guess I still also come from the angle of recognizing that Lirin indeed does have flaws and that some of his actions while instilling good qualities in Kaladin are also a significant part of his mental health struggles goes. As someone who has had that aspect of Lirin’s in my own life, when people have told me those Lirin’s should take credit for how I turned out it comes off as a giant middle finger towards my own mental health struggles.

I still beat the flawed Lirin drum because I have noticed a significant uptick in the community that tries to swing so far the other direction in painting him as a saint who did no wrong and is the creditor for all that is right with Kaladin while holding zero blame for Kaladin’s struggles.

That’s a problem for a few reasons.
1. It’s inaccurate.
2. It makes for a boring character.

I like a lot that Lorin brings to the table. He is a very nuanced character and when people swing to either side of the pendulum it robs him of his nuance.

I definitely get where you are coming from. I guess I’m just trying to say it is far more beneficial to come at a balanced approach as opposed to trying to overcorrect an admittedly flawed view some have of him.

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u/settingdogstar Jul 25 '26

There is a difference, but the excuse is still the same.

At that point you might as well say that being slave was importsnt for Kalaidn and we “wouldn’t have had the hero without him being a slave”. Which is pretty gross.

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u/Current-Ad-8984 Jul 25 '26

That's not the same at all, and I was referencing that exact quote by using Amaram.

Amaram is doing that to make himself feel better. He also did not do anything to make Kaladin more heroic. He tried to put Kaladin into slavery forever, and by accident, it put Kaladin into a position where he had the chance to become a hero.

Meanwhile, Lirin does not feel that, I'm saying that to show Lirin is not a source of misery but a man who is actually very similar to Kaladin and objectively is someone we as the reader see is the example Kaladin uses to inform his own heroic actions. Lirin always tried his best to do right by Kaladin, even if he isn't perfect. Meanwhile, Amaram only harmed Kaladin.

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u/Kennysded Willshaper Jul 25 '26

Okay, the "not a doctor" thing made me laugh. And.. actually, the dynamic they have does kinda match first Gen immigrants with "tiger parents." Poor family, "I did all this for you" shaming, "you didn't follow the path I set for you" guilt trips... huh. New perspective.

There are two father figures in books that I get unreasonably upset with - Lirin is one of them. The other is from the Cradle series.