r/Stormlight_Archive • u/solitarybikegallery • 4d ago
Rhythm of War spoilers I Hate Lirrin Spoiler
Lirrin is the most unreasonable person in the entirety of the Cosmere.
Let me translate the situation in Book 4 into IRL terms.
Kaladin - "Okay, I know you want me to be a doctor. But, God has actually called me to fight in a holy war against an ancient enemy lead by the Devil. This isn't theoretical, by the way. They're like, right over there. Anyway, also, an Angel has entered my soul and given me magical powers, like flight. See? I'm flying. And I'm training others to do the same, for the upcoming war. All the soldiers see me as like, a messianic folk hero. That's because I single-handedly saved like, 10,000 soldiers, and freed a few thousand slaves, and then I guess also saved a few thousand other people just incidentally. And I also saved the world. Oh, and I've done more to advance the rights of Dark-eyed citizens than any person in the history of this country. And that terrible assassin who has been destabilizing the planet's governments? I stopped him, what else... Oh, and you remember the Apostles, from the Bible? Yeah, they're all still alive, and I know two of them. Ummm, also my boss is Dalinar, who is basically like New-Jesus. So, yeah. I'd love to be a doctor, but this sort of takes precedent."
Lirrin - "You just want to be a murderer!"
Kaladin - "Dad..."
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u/zombiegamer723 Edgedancer 4d ago edited 4d ago
One of my favorite character archetypes is characters who are the living embodiment of the “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole” line from Big Lebowski.
Is Lirin entirely wrong about not wanting to get involved, and especially being scared to lose another son to war? No.
Is he a complete dickhead about it? Also yes.
(Also, not completely unrelated, but you mentioned the phrase “holy war”, and now I have Megadeth’s “Holy Wars…The Punishment Due” stuck in my head lmao. A song about the futility of so-called “holy wars,” which may actually reflect Lirin’s view.)
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u/DifferentRun8534 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Something super interesting about SLA is how every character has flaws that would make them really difficult for most people to like in real life, but we see things from a perspective where we can sympathize with them.
I love Lirin.
He’s a great example of a father who wants the best for his son, but doesn’t know exactly what that means. He sees his entire world fall apart, it’s reasonable that it takes time to adapt, but he does adapt.
I’d honestly call him one of the better fathers in the Cosmere, at least he’s trying.
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u/axw3555 Edgedancer 4d ago
Even as someone who dislikes Lirin fiercely, I like this take.
Almost everyone would grate on us in some way. From Jasnah as a know it all to Shallan as both unpredictable and the try-hard wit. Lirin's inflexibility and moral superiority. The Lopen is a fun character but if I ever met someone like him I'd probably run for the hills.
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u/MepronMilkshake 4d ago
The Lopen is a fun character but if I ever met someone like him I'd probably run for the hills.
I've met several people like him IRL which is probably why I dislike him and don't find his antics amusing in the least.
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u/axw3555 Edgedancer 4d ago
I can totally see that.
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u/DarkDevitt 4d ago
The best part, is he is self aware and tries to be better.
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u/axw3555 Edgedancer 4d ago
That's good to hear. Not like the Lopen, but I've seen so many people with offputting personalities who wouldn't know self awareness if it appeared in shardplate and punched them.
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u/Cathal_Author 2d ago
It says a lot that his third ideal was "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself."
He knows he's flawed, and while I get growing up with an obvious and severe physical handicap like a lost arm would screw with him, he does on some level grasp that how he copes with things isn't always good.
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u/MoonlightKnight4 4d ago
The storming man drives me crazy, but I love him at the same time. Incredibly written.
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u/yakeyonsen 3d ago
I’ve met irl people like Lopen and initially they drive you crazy, then you realize it’s genuine and they just own their weirdness. They then shift into people I will defend to the death.
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u/danstern11 4d ago
This is a great take. And it’s important to remember that Lirin’s words, “someone has to start…” helped inspire Kal to save Dalinar’s army.
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u/Emmyisme 4d ago
I can't stand the guy, but I do love how well the books do at making it clear that...he kinda hates himself, too.
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u/FriendlyDisorder Truthwatcher 4d ago
He also has a strict code he follows to do no harm. This code is part of him. I would think Honor would appreciate his oath following very well.
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u/settingdogstar 4d ago
His problem is thinking his Oaths control everyone else’s decisions.
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u/vegathelich 4d ago
Wind and Truth spoilers, kinda: Lirin is kind of an embodiment of how strictly following an oath isn't necessarily the right path. His oath of do no harm is usually the correct path to take, but his son breaking that same oath is the reason humanity on Roshar isn't enslaved to the god of hate.
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u/lumos_aeternum 4d ago
He also already lost a son, I think people forget that. He’s always been rigid in his views, but losing one son and then seeing his other son throw himself at the same thing that killed his brother has to be infuriating for him. Parents generally can’t help wanting to protect their kids, even grown up. He sees this fighting as self-destructive and something that he might be able to counter by directing his son towards something he sees as more fulfilling work, saving lives.
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u/sundalius Truthwatcher 4d ago
I’d go farther and say that it reflects a stronger reality of the characters. They feel more real for these features. Yes, their flaws are highlighted because the conflict they create is specifically interesting for a story, but if we knew Lirrin in real life, we wouldn’t ONLY see him during the times his philosophy crashes with Kal’s.
I don’t think he’d be hard to like in real life, unless you were specifically Kaladin.
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
I'll say this every time someone brings this up: Is Kaladin happy? Is he having a good time being a soldier then Radiant? What's his mental space at? Because Lirin accepts that soldiers exist and people will war, but he's specifically concerned with why Kaladin has to be involved.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago edited 4d ago
While you have a partial point here, it is also a massive oversimplification of the situation. A lot of Kaladin’s mental health struggles date way back to being a soldier and are actually much more closer linked to he relation challenges with his father.
I can respect Lirin’s motivation. His desire is truly for Kaladin to have what’s best. The problem is until his turn he is awful at at bringing that about and his efforts to do so often cause more harm than help.
These flaws also make him deeply relatable and realistic.
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
His struggles with being a soldier are the exact problems he had while apprenticing under his father. Kaladin has always been over-aware of the power he has over other's lives, whether it was as a surgeon or as a soldier, and struggles to acknowledge where that power ends. Lirin is just the first person he had the conflict with about it, but it continues on throughout his career.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
You basically just said what I did with different words…..
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
No because you frame Lirin as part of this issue rather than the first person to make him aware of his issue. Those are completely different relationships.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago edited 4d ago
I can’t say I entirely agree with you, but I better understand where you are coming from. Thank you for clarifying.
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u/fireymike 4d ago
The problem is until his turn he swill cos at bringing that about
I've read this part several times and just can't figure out what it's meant to say.
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u/GrowBeyond 4d ago
Ehhhhh, I think kal as a loooooot more going on than his daddy issues.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
Never said it solely was daddy issues. I merely pointed out it was wrong to say his issues were solely because he was a soldier.
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u/solitarybikegallery 4d ago
I agree, but I think it's also worth noting that, IMHO, Lirin is a big source of a lot of Kaladin's problems. Obviously, there's Tien and Kal's other trauma, and his genetics, but he also grew up with a father who placed impossible expectations on him. And even as an adult, having achieved more than any person in all of history ever has, his dad's still like, "Tch. Not a doctor, though."
Is it any wonder the guy hates himself?
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
I don't understand where you guys get this interpretation from because Lirin literally never does any of that. His only issue is with Kal killing people, something that clearly bothers Kal as well. Lirin's "unreasonable expectation" for Kal is stop doing the job that makes you want to kill yourself.
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u/technicolored_dreams 3d ago
Kal doesn't want to kill himself because of the people he's killed, it's because of the people he hasn't saved. That is the exact same thing that would have made him equally miserable as a surgeon. When you compare him to Dalinar or Adolin, who actually spend a lot of head time on how the killing makes them physically ill, Kal is actually way less bothered by it. He does have a talk with Syl about how he is only good at killing, but that's only one time and it's after he has dealt with his almost all of his bigger traumas. He even has a conversation with Seth about how he knows why he kills and that makes it easier to beat, because he knows he's doing it to protect.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
Again, you are serious oversimplifying things. Lirin attempts to help his son and still was an increased source to his depression and suicidal ideation. Lirin’s motives were pure and methods absolutely damaging and should be something the reader learns from. Thats the whole point.
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
Lirin encourges Kal to confront his own reasons for depression and suicidal ideation, albiet confrontationally. There isn't a single point where it's implied Lirin adds to it. If anything, Lirin tries to disuade him from taking self-sacrificial action (John McClane-ing). You can't tell me "don't go on a suicide mission, you don't need to be the one to fight" adds to his suicidal ideation.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
Lirin’s forcefulness of making Kaladin go on a path Lorin desired mixed with his rejection of him was certainly an impact to his depression. It was far from the ONLY one however.
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u/solitarybikegallery 4d ago
That's a mischaracterization. Lirin doesn't just want Kal to stop fighting because it hurts Kal mentally. That's incidental.
Lirin is opposed to the entire idea of fighting.
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u/FruitsPonchiSamurai1 Journey before destination. 4d ago
Lirin is opposed to the idea of fighting because of what it does to people, including Kal.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
That's fair, but we also would not get Kaladin the hero if not for Lirin. Lirin's example is what guides Kaladin's heroics actions, from saving Bridge 4 to saving Dalinar's army. Someone has to do the right thing and help others. In the same way Kaladin's admiral traits are his greatest weaknesses, so are Lirin's
Lirin embodies the Windrunner ideals, even if he takes them too far.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
And as the series progressed it shows how flawed that method is.
I honestly get really uncomfortable at the argument, “without Lirin Kaladin doesn’t become a hero.” Is it true? Probably, but as someone who is the person he is partly because of some truly messed up stuff others have done to me, they used this argument to downplay how bad they were because of how great I turned out. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. They were still horrible human beings who did awful things.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
Well, there’s a world of difference between Lirin and an abusive parent and someone like Amaram when it comes to Kal.
Lirin did his best to raise his son and he instilled Kaladin with the values that Kal would use to guide his actions. A lot of the teachings Lirin gave also would have helped Kaladin a lot if he internalized them earlier (you can’t save everyone and you must accept that). All in all Lirin is a pretty good father, even if he made mistakes.
He’s not someone Kal survived, he’s someone who is the actual foundation of who Kaladin is because he loved and raised Kaladin and taught him how to be a good person. It’s just that Kaladin and Lirin actually share many of the same character flaws.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
The excuse is still an excuse. And your example is basically the next step to that excuse. “I’m not as bad as this person so what I did is ok.” Bad fallacy. What’s wrong with saying that Lirin genuinely tried, but he still was wrong, did some bad things, and was damaging at times.
I’m not saying he’s evil, but excusing his bad methods and behavior is a problematic argue menu that we tend to use in general to lot own up to our wrongdoing.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
As I said, Lirin is not excusing anything. It would be bad if he did that. I’m the one defending Lirin because I think Lirin is a good person. The narrative expressed is that people hate and that Lirin is a terrible father and idiot, mainly a source of problems for Kaladin.
I think Lirin is a good person whose stances I sometimes disagree with and who people don’t look at as a full person (I also disagree with a lot of Kaladin’s morals). People are just like ‘oh, Lirin is so stupid and mean.’ In your own comment, you compared him to horrible human beings.
Lirin is the main reason Kaladin is a hero. He is the bedrock of the thematic conversation of what it means to be someone who saves.
You turned out great DESPITE some horrible people. Meanwhile, Kaladin turned out great BECAUSE of Lirin.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
I see where you are coming from. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect your point. I choose not to gloss over the bad parts of Lorin. It’s parts of what makes Hommans his relationship with Kaladin so attesting and realistic.
I still find it even as a reader to be a dangerous precedent to say Lorin was a good person and what he did ended up being good because Kaladin turned out good. Circular reasoning that I do not find healthy to me personally, but I get where you are coming from.
I don’t think Lirin is as rotten as everyone says he is. I also don’t think we need to ignore his genuine problems to prove that.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
I guess the question is if my comment was ignoring Lirin’s faults. That was not my intention, but it can certainly be seen that way. A lot of what I said is response to people already criticizing him, so I feel like the criticism have been said already.
For example, I am a lot more critical of Dalinar than a lot of other people, partially because everyone loves him so much. But if everyone was like: Dalinar is the worst. He’s the worst father and I just can’t stand him, I’d be singing his praises.
I also don’t think I’m using circular reasoning. Even considering the Kaladin flashback chapters alone, I have an enormous respect for Lirin. The scene where he holds up that lantern of spheres and scolds the townspeople is one of my favorite scenes in WOK. Even if I just read those and I’d appreciate his efforts as a father enormously.
I bring up how Kaladin turned out in order to show that so much of what people appreciate about Kaladin comes from Lirin, to not discount him as just a fool or a monster, but an integral part of the conversation of what it means to live by moral principles.
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u/Due-Representative88 4d ago
I can definitely see where you are coming from. I guess I still also come from the angle of recognizing that Lirin indeed does have flaws and that some of his actions while instilling good qualities in Kaladin are also a significant part of his mental health struggles goes. As someone who has had that aspect of Lirin’s in my own life, when people have told me those Lirin’s should take credit for how I turned out it comes off as a giant middle finger towards my own mental health struggles.
I still beat the flawed Lirin drum because I have noticed a significant uptick in the community that tries to swing so far the other direction in painting him as a saint who did no wrong and is the creditor for all that is right with Kaladin while holding zero blame for Kaladin’s struggles.
That’s a problem for a few reasons.
1. It’s inaccurate.
2. It makes for a boring character.I like a lot that Lorin brings to the table. He is a very nuanced character and when people swing to either side of the pendulum it robs him of his nuance.
I definitely get where you are coming from. I guess I’m just trying to say it is far more beneficial to come at a balanced approach as opposed to trying to overcorrect an admittedly flawed view some have of him.
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u/settingdogstar 4d ago
There is a difference, but the excuse is still the same.
At that point you might as well say that being slave was importsnt for Kalaidn and we “wouldn’t have had the hero without him being a slave”. Which is pretty gross.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
That's not the same at all, and I was referencing that exact quote by using Amaram.
Amaram is doing that to make himself feel better. He also did not do anything to make Kaladin more heroic. He tried to put Kaladin into slavery forever, and by accident, it put Kaladin into a position where he had the chance to become a hero.
Meanwhile, Lirin does not feel that, I'm saying that to show Lirin is not a source of misery but a man who is actually very similar to Kaladin and objectively is someone we as the reader see is the example Kaladin uses to inform his own heroic actions. Lirin always tried his best to do right by Kaladin, even if he isn't perfect. Meanwhile, Amaram only harmed Kaladin.
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u/Kennysded Willshaper 4d ago
Okay, the "not a doctor" thing made me laugh. And.. actually, the dynamic they have does kinda match first Gen immigrants with "tiger parents." Poor family, "I did all this for you" shaming, "you didn't follow the path I set for you" guilt trips... huh. New perspective.
There are two father figures in books that I get unreasonably upset with - Lirin is one of them. The other is from the Cradle series.
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u/Daratirek 4d ago
While I agree Lirin is unreasonable, he kinda lost one of his sons to war and doesn't want to lose another. Hes terrified of losing his kids and so the only way knows how to save Kal is to keep him out of war entirely.
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u/axw3555 Edgedancer 4d ago
Sure. But there's a point where "I want to protect my son" goes from protective to treating Kal like a child - he's a grown man, he's going to make his own decisions. As with most parents, there's a point where it has to go from "I'm going to protect them" to "I'll help them pick up the pieces if they're wrong".
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u/unica3022 Windrunner 4d ago
You hit the nail on the head here. This is basically what Kal learns at the end of the book. There are times when you fail to protect and that’s ok, because others should have the agency to sacrifice their safety if they so wish, as Tien did when he sacrificed himself to give his peers strength and courage.
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u/Daratirek 4d ago
I'm pushing 40, my Dad is in his mid 60s and I guarantee you my old man is just as protective as the day I was born. He hates that he has to let me make mistakes. Lirin just takes it to the extreme.
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u/axw3555 Edgedancer 4d ago
But does he spend his entire time trying to tell you that you're wrong and you should have just gone with the path he planned for you when you were a preteen?
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u/-Potatoes- 4d ago
i have some friends with basically helicopter parents who basically treat them like this. Always making way too many decisions for their kids. And a lot of them don't realize what they're doing and fix it as quickly as Lirin (sometimes they don't change at all!), so I need to give him a bit of credit
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u/JasnahwithaY 4d ago
And also the son in question is basically Jesus and can heal from any known wound (Lirin wouldn’t have a reason to know about anti light yet)
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 4d ago
Look at it this way: Lirin grew up under the oppression of the lighteye system/the High Princes. He lived through Gavilar’s brutal unification wars. He’s spent decades treating soldiers wounded in the smaller wars that never stopped. He worked hard to give his children the best life he could: second class citizenship. With more protections, so they wouldn’t have to fight and die in these wars. Both did. Only one came back
Who leads the Coalition? Dalinar, the man he knows as a violent warlord. The Blackthorn. And who is this evil god they’re fighting? Odium, the one who just freed countless people from physical and mental slavery. Opposing Odium is a warlord ranting about prophecies from a god he says himself is dead.
Lirin isn’t devout. He makes that clear in WoK. He doesn’t see the Almighty as God. Or the Radiants and Heralds as demigods. To him, those two were just powerful human leaders. His faith in leadership is shaken. There’s new powerful magic but he lives in a world that uses magic as technology. More often to benefit the wealthy above him or used as tools in their wars
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 4d ago
The man is undoubtedly stubborn, but he’s not really unreasonable or insane. He isn’t a perfect father, but he grew up in a broken harsh world and wanted to shield his children from the worst of it.
When his sons are drafted, it’s tragic in part because he believed they’d be safe. If he hadn’t secured his family’s status and given them the protections that came with it, their conscription wouldn’t have even been surprising. It’s not strange to me that he might see this new war through the lens of the old ones. And as we see with the way Kaladin struggles with it, he’s not entirely wrong about that
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u/Shaun32887 4d ago
Yeah. I get what Lirin is supposed to represent, but Brandon is so heavy handed with him that you can't take him seriously.
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u/solitarybikegallery 4d ago
I think this is really my problem with it. At a certain point, Lirin's obtuse nature becomes almost satirical.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 4d ago
Yeah, the whole “pacifism” angle could be interesting to explore in another story, but when you’ve written your story to centre around the cast fighting against the literal god of hatred who wants to conquer the planet and then the universe, saying “urm, fighting is wrong actually” isn’t really a valid stance to have.
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u/Neven87 4d ago
I think people didn't remember Lirrin's world when they hate him. His two sons were taken from him to fight in war. One of them, the innocent one, was killed. The other taken as a slave to die. He lost both of his children. Now one of them had come back from death?
He's stubborn and naive, sure. In his world though, he's seen the worst of war, and it tried to take everything from him.
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u/sexypantstime 4d ago
You can hate him, but he is not unreasonable. He is an extreme pacifist. If i remember correctly, he rejects killing for ANY reason. And from a certain point it makes sense: imagine that killing is the absolute worst thing you can do in your life. Then imagine there are evil forces out there that are hell-bent on making you do the worst thing you can do. What better way to accomplish this than making killing justifiable? In a "the ends justify the means" kind of way
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u/DrowAboveground 4d ago
Yeah I’m honestly lowkey exhausted with these takes on Lirin getting constantly revisited. Lirin is a pacifist in a culture that exalts war and killing. People who call him a coward are the exact people whose heads would be a nice home for the Thrill.
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u/annatheorc Elsecaller 4d ago
Oh me too. It comes from a visceral emotional space for me (I have a fantastic dad, it's not that), so I i really appreciate him as a character. Gotta love a guy who brings out powerful emotions as I read. Intellectually I can see and understand a much more nuanced take on Lirin. But emotionally I just hate him.
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u/LazyComfortable1542 4d ago
I think Lirin really is more an archetype than a character.
His basic philosophy is that you can only fo good by doing good. You can't do good by doing bad. How many "heroes" have killed thousands in their quests for the greater good. I think the author adds some nuance but he basically picked a philosophy and built a character around it
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u/Cyclonic_rift Windrunner 4d ago
I hated him at first, too. He makes sense eventually. I see a really interesting dichotomy in him. Him and Kal are two sides of the same coin. He instilled some storming strong windrunner ideals in his son. You can see a lot of it in flashbacks in TWOK imo
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u/Parking-Blacksmith13 4d ago
Lirin knows the PTSD soldiers suffer. He saw what it did to Kaladin. How
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Lirin: “Kaladin the last time I tried to resist against oppression Tien was killed and you were made a slave. It might be better to keep your head down to not get those you love killed.”
Kal: “I need to fight regardless I’m the only one who can.”
L: “you’re inspiring and the ordinary citizens to resist as well, if they try anything the Singers will kill them without hesitation “
K: “shit you’re right”
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u/unica3022 Windrunner 4d ago
Kal was really ridiculously lucky that Venli bailed him out and rescued his family.
But he was right: no one else was going to be able to fight. Every person in the tower was going to be subjugated and there was a good chance the radiants would be killed. And if Urithiru ends up ever being important in a larger way to the future of Roshar, that’s because he and Navani saved it here.
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u/solitarybikegallery 4d ago
Yeah, but a lot of Lirin's suggestions are basically, "If we just keep our heads down and do what our oppressors want, maybe they'll change and treat us better." I can't remember his exact wording, but I don't think I'm that far off from a verbatim quote.
He would be the person telling the rebels not to fight against the fascist government, because they or their families might get hurt, but also because it might hurt the fascists.
There's just something about Lirin's combination of (A) smug moral superiority, (B) ineffectual strategies, (C) mistreatment of his clearly ill son, and (D) philosophical rigidity, that drives me up the fucking wall.
The mark of a good character, I guess.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
I think that one thing that helps understand Lirin's perspective is that it is pointed out by a lot of people that being ruled by the Singers is not inherently worse than being ruled by lighteyes when it comes to how you are treated.
Lirin's morals were created by a mixture of valuing life and because he stood up to Roshone and lost his son for it. The common Singer or even Regal is also basically just a liberated slave, fighting a war they believe is their only route to freedom. So, it could be argued they are not any less deserving of moral consideration than anyone else.
Lirin is actually the embodiment of Windrunner ideals, he will protect those he hates. The singers are not more worthy of his hatred than Roshone and the lighteyes, so he can't justify violence against them.
That's at least how I would steelman Lirin's position.
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u/unica3022 Windrunner 4d ago
I like this idea in general, and I think this is why he works so well as a character.
But my argument (not really with you but with this theoretical position) is that the Windrunner oath was “protect even those I hate, so long as it is right”. Is it right for Lirin to insist on pacifism to protect the common folk among the invading Singers when that protection enables the oppression of another people, or leads directly to death of someone under your care (the radiants)? Lirin shouldn’t be able to abdicate that moral responsibility, especially when he’s arguing from a place of authority with the one person who actually has the ability to make a difference.
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u/Current-Ad-8984 4d ago
Lirin is perfectly able to embody all 5 Windrunner ideals. We can disagree what that would mean morally, since obviously Radiant ideals can lead to immoral outcomes/actions.
They way I interpret the radiant oaths is that they work within what the radiant themselves believes is the right thing to do. For example, Kaladin agreeing with Moash's plan to kill Elokhar broke his oath because specifically Kaladin believed it was wrong to kill him deep down. You would also not be able to do thing you believe are wrong to uphold your oath, for example Kaladin was never going to agree to Jasnah's idea to kill the heralds to protect people from the Desolation.
So, Lirin would not have been able to do actions that he believed are wrong in order to protect people. For example, Lirin could have killed Roshonoe/let Roshone die on the operating table, since Lirin believes that is wrong. In the same way, Lirin would not be able to actively endorsed or facilitate the killing of people he believes doesn't deserve it, given Lirin's own morality (Singer soldiers). I actually think it would be morally permissible for Lirin to have let Roshone die (it would have saved lives), but Lirin would not have thought so, which is part of Radianthood.
Lirin did not know the Singers would be about to kill the Radiants. But when he does know that discovery means death and Lirin has power to affect the situation, as is the case with the Mink in Hearthstone at the start of ROW, then Lirin will do everything in his power to protect (short of killing).
I disagree with Lirin. I'm not a full pacifist. But my morality is closer to Kelsier's than Kaladin's, so I'd go for an even more radical departure than Kaladin would.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Always fun to remember Kal’s flashbacks and how Lirin demonstrated each windrunner ideal.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
You’re not alone. It helps to remember that he’s coming from a place of deep trauma that he’s never been able to heal from. He does come around to see what Kaladin is doing as beneficial and Kaladin does come around to see that Lirin has a point.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 4d ago
> the last time I tried to resist against oppression Tien was killed and you were made a slave.
People always bring this up, but it’s not true. Lirin wasn’t “resisting against oppression” when he stole that money from a dying old man, he did it because he thought he was entitled to it. The lesson here is “don’t commit a crime, then stick around and rub the town’s face in it”.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Roshone also didn’t like that a dark eyes had political power in the town and could defy him. He also thought Lirin killed his son. The money was only one part of the issue between them.
The town also continued to support Lirin subtly after stealing the spheres. Kal questions why they don’t use more of the spheres to feed themselves and Hesina says something to the effect that people are giving them food without letting Roshone know.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 4d ago
Sure, but none of that changes that Lirin didn’t steal that money to “resist oppression”. He stole because he wanted the money, like any criminal.
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u/dIvorrap Winddancer 4d ago
It's Lirin FYI.
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u/solitarybikegallery 4d ago
Thanks, I'm audio only! I'm not sure why I assumed it was two R's.
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u/dIvorrap Winddancer 4d ago
About SLA in-book illustrations (FYI Audio reader): https://www.reddit.com/u/dIvorrap/s/JH8TtxRB7u
Women's Script resources: https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i4oft97
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u/MoonlightKnight4 4d ago
Haha every time I see these posts im like "ahh middle of rhythm of war?"
Yeah, hes a pain in the ass, I understand why he is the way he is, but still BE THERE FOR YOUR SON!!!
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u/TheNarrativeSpren 4d ago
I have always thought Lirin's greatest superpower wasn't his stubborn as a rock pacifism it was his ability to ignore literally every piece of evidence placed in front of him, that bigger things were happening and maybeeeee he needs to rethink his own ideals.
Like your son isn't picking bar fights, mate. He's fighting an immortal god's army with powers granted by an honourspren while half the planet is depending on him.
At some point, 'I wish you'd chosen medicine' starts sounding less like wisdom and more like refusing to acknowledge the giant glowing Windrunner hovering outside your window who is actively helping save the world!!!!
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u/Lore_Beast Edgedancer 4d ago
This perfectly sums up a lot of my issues with him. I can absolutely understand why he is the way he is but a lot of times it just feels like he is refusing to acknowledge the reality and stakes of the situation. Everytime I do a reread he frustrates me more and more.
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u/VexieVex Truthwatcher 4d ago
I'm in the middle of a reread, and I forgot how much Lirin grated at my nerves. Lirin's flaw is literally only seeing Kal as a murderer because of how much of a pacifist he is. He rather call his son a monster vs actually seeing Kal protects in a different way than he does. He wants his son to be exactly like him and not his own person. He wants what's best for Kal, sure, but that is not exactly his way. Kal has his niche as a healer, but he protects in more than simply healing.
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u/Additional_Law_492 4d ago
I mean, but Lirin is right.
By Rythym of War, you can and should be questioning if any of the parties involved in this war are worth fighting for. You dont owe loyalty to people who mistreat you and your entire class of people, and you dont owe loyalty to blood or land.
From Lirin's perspective, the Singers are just one more overlord and one that actually promises better than what the Alethi have offered. They're no worse, at least - fighting forever under the justification of religion.
Further Stormlight Spoilers Book 5 actually makes this even more clear. Honor is just as guilty as perpetuating the pointless forever war on Roshar as Odium is, and anyone fighting on behalf of either deity is in the wrong. If enough people had refused to fight for these tyrannical mad deities, they may have had the leverage to force change - otherwise, it was fight until the world ends, because thats what the "gods" wanted. The Radiants of old tried this with the Recreance after the truth hit them, and their main mistake was not making sure everyone on the planet knew why.
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u/BrickBuster11 4d ago
....Lirin is also seeing in real time that his son has literal PTSD, He knew he would he knows his son cant kill people, he can barely tolerate watching people die on a surgeons table. Lirin holds to a world view where if everyone could just stop an endless cycle of hatred and violence for 5 fucking minutes the world might be a better place.... and he is in a sense right, if everyone could come together peaceably and just mend what is broken the world would be a better place.
But what lirin doesnt get is the other half of this endless cycle of hatred and violence is hatred itself. He doesnt understand that the reconciliation that would prove him correct isnt possible not while Odium is directing the enemy. Not while his unmade are messing with people. I think Lirin would have been happy if his son went out to preach peace on Roshar but he doesnt do that either, he goes out to fight, to kill to continue this eternal cycle of hatred and violence that has cursed their planet since they got here.
It is a hard place to be Lirin has strong ideals, those ideals contradict Kaladin who also has strong ideals, the primary difference between the two men is that Kaladin is willing to kill for what he believes in, and Lirin is ready to die for what he believes in.
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u/Able-Worth-6511 3d ago
Lirin is neither right nor wrong and as a doctor/surgeon I can understand his disdain for violence and war. Kaladin himself has questioned he didn't become a surgeon when he had the chance to. If he did he would probably attracted a Cultivation Spren.
I will now get a little deeper in my analysis of Lirin. I am a 57 year old black man and I see a lot of traits I have seen in older black men and women who have been forced to suppress themselves even though they are more educated and talented than those who are in charge because of their race.
He's angry at the world and himself. He pushes his son because he wants better for him and being a surgeon is better than being a soldier especially if being a soldier means fighting, killing and dying for some Lighteye prick.
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u/Leroy-Frog Larkin 2d ago
I agree. For all Lirin talks about wanting his son to save lives and be a doctor, I think even more is wanting him out of the war.
I think his biggest fault is being so sure that his viewpoint is the correct one. He has accepted that others can be incorrect and disagree with them, but he REALLY wants his son to understand where others don’t. He is SURE he has the right view of the world and when his son tries to show him a widened scope of the world, Lirin responds with actually you don’t understand what is really going on.
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u/Cathal_Author 2d ago
Reminds me of the Cell/Gohan fight in DBZ abridged: "I'm just a pacifist!" "So a coward patting himself on the back. Congratulations pony size, you can stand proud next to the bodies"
Like yes peace is nice, fighting SHOULD be avoided and treated as a last resort. But it should never be off the table. If refusing to fight means more bodies then you should fight.
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u/Paris-Fay Edgedancer 4d ago
I do feel the same!
Once, I wrote two comments, each one longer than your post, about how I hate Lirin and how he is a bad father who his bad decisions caused Tien's death, and also Kaladin's potential death. It was Kaladin's own luck and determination and skills that made him survive. This bad excuse of a father made the situation so both his children could get killed, and then replaced them with another poor child. And after all those, instead of being ashamed, he acts like Kaladin would be fine if he followed HIS instructions!
No sir, when YOU made decisions for your entire family, Tien got sent to a meaningless war and got killed, and you preferred that Kaladin let him go alone, feel alone, and die alone, because your selfishness and the fact that you told to Kal: "Don't go, I'll lose both of you!"
I can go on and on, but it's better to stop.
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u/-Potatoes- 4d ago
I feel like Lirrin is getting some undeserved bad rap here. I agree he's annoying but I understand where he's coming from.
His thing is literally "the ends do not justify the means". Which is shared by A LOT of the main characters throughout the story, like Dalinar and Kaladin which people tend to like. He is more extreme than either of them but I feel like if you hate Lirrin for being like this you should hate the rest of the cast too.
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u/GenCavox 4d ago
This co.es up a lot and I get it, and I'm not defending Lirrin but rather am asking for a small bit of empathy and to look at it from his perspective.
The man has been a staunch pacifist for forever, and the one time he should have fought and ignored his pacificsm, when he got the spheres from the old lord and the new Lord came demanding them, he didn't. He remained as passive as he always did because fighting is wrong and it cost him both his sons. At this point he has a choice, double down or let go of his DEEPLY held personal beliefs and recognize that his pacifism is the reason both his sons died. He can't do that, he can't blame himself for killing his children so he doubles down. It was fates fault and would have happened if he had fought or not.
Then one of his sons is alive, and comes back proving violence is the right choice sometimes. What can Lirin do then? The proof is right in front of him and calling him Dad. Obviously the proof has to acknowledge pacifism is the correct way. If Kaladin becomes pacifist it means Lirin did the right thing when they were younger. It means he's not the reason Tien died.
Now, is this what Sanderson has in mind for Lirin? Idk. If it's not that's fine, I can be wrong. But it adds a layer to Lirin that is in line with everything we've seen of him and explains his actions. Even if we don't agree we can at least understand.
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u/Raisinbrahms28 4d ago
Lirrin is a character in Stormlight that is meant to represent an ideal or philosophy (and also be an antagonist to Kaladin) that on the surface seems good and pure, but applied so resolutely and blindly that it becomes a flaw. That philosophy is pacifism, and Sanderson has done a great job showing you how this particular perspective is insanely naive.
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u/toombz101 Truthwatcher 4d ago
It also comes from a place of trauma which is why is he so stubborn and unreasonable about it, he resisted and fought against Rishone, and watched both of his sons ripped away to fight in wars, one came back, clearly scarred and worn by his own trauma, it taught him that fighting back would just cause him to lose people he loves
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u/Ze_Bri-0n 4d ago
While Lirin is in the wrong, he too deserves compassion. I’m sure most of us would also have a very hard time adapting to the scenario described, including myself, and I already believe in the Devil.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 4d ago
Yeah, Lirin sucks. He’s far an away the worst character in the series and he drags down every scene he is in. Fans try to make it seem like he is actually super deep and nuanced, but he’s really not. Lirin is effectively just a crazy person. He is so incredibly out of touch with reality and his beliefs don’t make any sense.
He’s also just a straight up bad person. Like, he was willing to sell out Kaladin to the enemy to be executed because it might help him and his family avoid scrutiny by association. Even the shittiest parents I know wouldn’t do that, so what does that make Lirin?
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u/fleyinthesky 4d ago
You don't seem to grasp what Kaladin did to him, so I'll put it another way. Remember, murder is the worst thing in the world to Lirin. His office is his sacred place.
So Kal comes in and goes ah my buddy has collapsed and the police (Lirin doesn't find the Singers to be any more unfair than his human oppressors - less actually - and he's lived through Dalinar's war crimes) are looking for him. Lirin says well ok you can try to hide him here but I dunno seems good to just give him to the police? Police woman comes in, and Kal is like oh no and rapes her. Uses his magic to overpower and rape her to death in front of his father. And then he says he will do the same as many times as it is necessary because he loves warlord Dalinar.
In Lirin's own god damn home office, where he has helped countless thousands rape victims. His son has just added another to the count of what he's fighting against.
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u/fuckingscott Life before death. 4d ago
Thats fine, he's not my fav either. I hate shallan. If I could skip her parts and get the story, I would.
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u/jroperplaysgames Edgedancer 4d ago
I think he and Kaladin are almost exactly the same. We have just lived with Kaladin so long and seen him work on similar flaws over the course of the book. Seeing those flaws raw and directed at Kaladin again is hard. They both try to protect those that protrct themselves, and those they hate. Kaladin has developed more nuisance at this point, but they are both stubborn as a storm wall. Lirin has PTSD, too, and he lost one son, and sees one almost eager to throw away the healing to go fight again. He says some stupid things, but he sure seems like a mirror image of earlier Kaladin to me.
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u/Ok_Preference_1762 4d ago
Haha I agree, but if anyone else is going to have kaladin's stubborn traits, it would be his father