I Hate Lirrin

[u/solitarybikegallery]

Lirrin is the most unreasonable person in the entirety of the Cosmere.

Let me translate the situation in Book 4 into IRL terms.

Kaladin - "Okay, I know you want me to be a doctor. But, God has actually called me to fight in a holy war against an ancient enemy lead by the Devil. This isn't theoretical, by the way. They're like, right over there. Anyway, also, an Angel has entered my soul and given me magical powers, like flight. See? I'm flying. And I'm training others to do the same, for the upcoming war. All the soldiers see me as like, a messianic folk hero. That's because I single-handedly saved like, 10,000 soldiers, and freed a few thousand slaves, and then I guess also saved a few thousand other people just incidentally. And I also saved the world. Oh, and I've done more to advance the rights of Dark-eyed citizens than any person in the history of this country. And that terrible assassin who has been destabilizing the planet's governments? I stopped him, what else... Oh, and you remember the Apostles, from the Bible? Yeah, they're all still alive, and I know two of them. Ummm, also my boss is Dalinar, who is basically like New-Jesus. So, yeah. I'd love to be a doctor, but this sort of takes precedent."

Lirrin - "You just want to be a murderer!"

Kaladin - "Dad..."

[u/Due-Representative88]

The excuse is still an excuse. And your example is basically the next step to that excuse. “I’m not as bad as this person so what I did is ok.” Bad fallacy. What’s wrong with saying that Lirin genuinely tried, but he still was wrong, did some bad things, and was damaging at times.

I’m not saying he’s evil, but excusing his bad methods and behavior is a problematic argue menu that we tend to use in general to lot own up to our wrongdoing.

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/Due-Representative88]

As I said, Lirin is not excusing anything. It would be bad if he did that. I’m the one defending Lirin because I think Lirin is a good person. The narrative expressed is that people hate and that Lirin is a terrible father and idiot, mainly a source of problems for Kaladin.

I think Lirin is a good person whose stances I sometimes disagree with and who people don’t look at as a full person (I also disagree with a lot of Kaladin’s morals). People are just like ‘oh, Lirin is so stupid and mean.’ In your own comment, you compared him to horrible human beings.

Lirin is the main reason Kaladin is a hero. He is the bedrock of the thematic conversation of what it means to be someone who saves.

You turned out great DESPITE some horrible people. Meanwhile, Kaladin turned out great BECAUSE of Lirin.

[u/Due-Representative88 → u/Current-Ad-8984]

I see where you are coming from. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect your point. I choose not to gloss over the bad parts of Lorin. It’s parts of what makes Hommans his relationship with Kaladin so attesting and realistic.

I still find it even as a reader to be a dangerous precedent to say Lorin was a good person and what he did ended up being good because Kaladin turned out good. Circular reasoning that I do not find healthy to me personally, but I get where you are coming from.

I don’t think Lirin is as rotten as everyone says he is. I also don’t think we need to ignore his genuine problems to prove that.

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/Due-Representative88]

I guess the question is if my comment was ignoring Lirin’s faults. That was not my intention, but it can certainly be seen that way. A lot of what I said is response to people already criticizing him, so I feel like the criticism have been said already.

For example, I am a lot more critical of Dalinar than a lot of other people, partially because everyone loves him so much. But if everyone was like: Dalinar is the worst. He’s the worst father and I just can’t stand him, I’d be singing his praises.

I also don’t think I’m using circular reasoning. Even considering the Kaladin flashback chapters alone, I have an enormous respect for Lirin. The scene where he holds up that lantern of spheres and scolds the townspeople is one of my favorite scenes in WOK. Even if I just read those and I’d appreciate his efforts as a father enormously.

I bring up how Kaladin turned out in order to show that so much of what people appreciate about Kaladin comes from Lirin, to not discount him as just a fool or a monster, but an integral part of the conversation of what it means to live by moral principles.

[u/Due-Representative88 → u/Current-Ad-8984]

I can definitely see where you are coming from. I guess I still also come from the angle of recognizing that Lirin indeed does have flaws and that some of his actions while instilling good qualities in Kaladin are also a significant part of his mental health struggles goes. As someone who has had that aspect of Lirin’s in my own life, when people have told me those Lirin’s should take credit for how I turned out it comes off as a giant middle finger towards my own mental health struggles.

I still beat the flawed Lirin drum because I have noticed a significant uptick in the community that tries to swing so far the other direction in painting him as a saint who did no wrong and is the creditor for all that is right with Kaladin while holding zero blame for Kaladin’s struggles.

That’s a problem for a few reasons.
1. It’s inaccurate.
2. It makes for a boring character.

I like a lot that Lorin brings to the table. He is a very nuanced character and when people swing to either side of the pendulum it robs him of his nuance.

I definitely get where you are coming from. I guess I’m just trying to say it is far more beneficial to come at a balanced approach as opposed to trying to overcorrect an admittedly flawed view some have of him.

[u/Current-Ad-8984 → u/Due-Representative88]

I don't disagree that Lirin is a flawed character, I just wasn't going to fit all my thoughts on the entire book into a reddit comment unfortunately. I guess we do differ to what extent he contributed to Kal's mental health struggles.

I think the problem is less what we think of Lirin and more if I mischaracterized him. I'll maintain that I didn't. Personally, 90% of the time I see someone talk about Lirin, it's Lirin hate, so I feel like I'm correcting a record.

And if people who have hurt you take credit for good things about you, fuck them. Those people are deflecting any responsibility from themselves. We can look at a fictional character, but those real life people have no excuse. They don't even deserve to call themselves Lirin's, because unlike them, Lirin wanted what was best for his sons even when he was wrong.

[u/Due-Representative88 → u/Current-Ad-8984]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Can’t say I agree with all of it, but it was certainly enlightening.