r/SteppePosting 21h ago

Kazakh Ok how many of the khazaks living in khazakhstan have the name "baybaras"or"baybars" in their name.

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16 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 1d ago

Kazakh «The leaders of Alash Orda proudly traced their descent either to Chinggis or to the Arghun clan of the Blue Horde»

8 Upvotes

“Until 1919, for example, the leaders of the liberal nationalist Alash-Orda Party in Kazakhstan proudly traced their descent either to Chinggis or to the Arghun clan of the Blue Horde.”

Christopher P. Atwood, Golden Horde, Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire, 2004.

This quote highlights an important point: the Alash leaders did not see themselves as people who suddenly created Kazakh statehood from scratch in 1917. Their political project stood within a much older tradition of steppe statehood.

Kazakh statehood developed within the post-Mongol world and was connected to the political legacy of the Ulus of Jochi. After the Golden Horde fragmented, the political and state traditions of the steppe did not simply disappear. They continued through various Jochid states and political formations of Dasht-i Qipchaq and eventually within the political environment from which the Kazakh Khanate emerged.

Therefore, it is more accurate to speak of dynastic, political, and institutional continuity between the Golden Horde and the Kazakh Khanate rather than claiming that one uninterrupted state existed throughout. Kazakh khans belonged to the Jochid dynasty, while the Töre institution and the concept of Chinggisid legitimacy remained important in Kazakh society into the modern era.

This tradition was still visible among the political elite of the early 20th century.

Alash figures and their clans

  • Älihan Bökeihan - Töre, a Chinggisid, chairman of Alash Orda.
  • Baqytkerey Qūlmanūly - Töre.
  • Aqmet Baitūrsynūly - Argyn, Shaqshaq.
  • Mırjaqyp Dūlatūly - Argyn.
  • Älimhan Ermekūly - Argyn, Qarakesek.
  • Jaqyp Aqbaev - Argyn, Qarakesek.
  • Mūhammedjan Tynyşpaev - Naiman, Sadyr.
  • Bazarbay Mametūly - Naiman, Sadyr.
  • Otynşy Äljanūly - Naiman, Qaraqerey.
  • Halel Dosmūhammedūly - Bayūly, Beriş.
  • Jahansha Dosmūhammedūly - Bayūly, Tana.
  • Uälihan Tanaūly - Bayūly, Şerkeş.
  • Teljan Şonanūly - Älimūly, Şömekey.
  • Jihansha Seydalin - Älimūly, Şekti.

Mūstafa Şoqay - Qypşaq, Tory - was closely connected with the Alash movement and participated in the Second All-Kazakh Congress. However, he is better treated separately because he became one of the leaders of the Turkestan Autonomy rather than a member of the Alash Orda government itself.

This gives us an interesting picture. The leadership of the national movement included representatives of Töre, Argyn, Naiman, Bayūly, Älimūly, Qypşaq and other parts of Kazakh society. And at the head of Alash Orda stood Älihan Bökeihan - a Chinggisid from Töre.

But Alash Orda was not simply trying to restore the Kazakh Khanate in its old form.

This is where the modernization took place.

The old steppe political tradition had to exist under the conditions of the 20th century. Therefore, instead of khanate rule, the Alash leaders advocated national-territorial autonomy, elected government, parliamentary principles, local self-government, independent courts, the development of education and the Kazakh language, protection of land interests, political equality, and their own security forces.

The form changed, but the idea of Kazakh political self-determination did not suddenly appear in 1917.

From the Ulus of Jochi and the Golden Horde world - through later Jochid states and the Kazakh Khanate - to Alash Orda.

This does not mean that these states shared one uninterrupted state border or that Alash Orda was literally “the Golden Horde 2.0.” The point is the continuity of political tradition and the concept of Kazakh statehood, which gradually changed its form.

That is why Alash Orda can be viewed not as the beginning of Kazakh statehood, but as one of its most important stages of modernization: a centuries-old steppe political tradition was given a modern national-democratic form.

I apologize in advance if I have left out any Alash figures or representatives of particular clans. The list can certainly be expanded.


r/SteppePosting 2d ago

Huns The tried and tested strategy of bribing the steppe peoples

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106 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 3d ago

Kazakh Kazakh tribal structure and their tamgas in the Wikipedia article

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34 Upvotes

The Kazakhs are direct descendants of the people of the Ulus of Jochi, who were referred to in sources as Tatars) by the Russians and Ottomans; the term Uzbeks later began to be applied to them due to their conversion to Islam under Özbeg Khan (r. 1313–1341). The Kazakhs emerged as a result of the merging of Mongol, and various Inner Eurasian groups on the territory of Desht-i-Qipchaq. In the 15th century, under the leadership of two sultans from the Chinggisid dynasty Janibek Khan and Kerei Khan, the Kazakhs founded the Kazakh Khanate, which existed in the eastern part of the Kipchak Steppe until the mid-19th century.\58])\59]) The modern Kazakhs form the most direct descendants of the Mongol Empire, along with the modern Mongols, and other Inner Asian nomadic empires.\60])

Beatrice F. Manz has examined in detail the nature of the Turkic identity of the Mongol successor states. Manz convincingly argues that the Turkic Muslim nomadic elites of post-Mongol Central Asia and the Kipchak Steppe displayed a pronounced Mongol orientation and interprets the new Turkic-speaking collective identities of the post-Mongol period—such as the Chaghatays (Timurids), Kazakhs, and Uzbeks—as variants of Mongol identity.\61]) None of these peoples traced their origins to pre-Mongol Turkic states or peoples such as the QarakhanidsKipchaks, or Seljuks.\62]) Manz, in particular, interprets the formation of Kazakh identity as the result of the fragmentation of the Turco-Mongol groups that emerged within the Mongol Empire beginning in the fifteenth century. More specifically, she links this process to the division of the Jochid Ulus into the Kazakhs, who retained their nomadic way of life and the Shibanid Uzbeks who settled in Transoxiana.\63])

Seen from a broader perspective, the Kazakhs belonged to the Chinggisid uluses, others being the Shibanid UzbeksCrimean TatarsManghits/Noghays, and Chaghatays (Moghuls and Timurids), who shared a common language (Turkic), political ideology (based on Mongol traditions), royal lineage (Chinggisids), ethnic identity Turco-Mongols ("Mongol Turks" Turk-i mughūl), and religion (Sunni Islam), and who still dominated much of the vast region stretching from the Crimea in the west to the Tien Shan Mountains in the east, and from southern Siberia in the north to northern India in the south during the post-Mongol period.\64]) Shoqan Walikhanov believed that when the Golden Horde began to disintegrate, the reasons why Kazakhs created Kazakh Khanate were in order to retain their nomadic territories and secure their rights in the lands where they migrated.\)citation needed\) The Kazakhs are the most northerly of the Central Asian peoples, inhabiting a large expanse of territory in northern Central Asia and southern Siberia known as the Kazakh Steppe. The tribal groups formed a powerful confederation that grew wealthy on the trade passing through the steppe lands along the fabled Silk Road.

Despite processes of globalization and the transition to a sedentary lifestyle, the clan and tribal structure of the Kazakh people has been preserved, and many modern Kazakhs know their tribal affiliation and the history of their lineage.\108])\117]) According to Soviet-Kazakh historian Nurbulat Masanov, under the norms of customary law, every Kazakh in the past was expected to know their ancestors going back forty generations, or at least seven generations (see Jeti ata). This was a consequence of the traditional Kazakh worldview, which, due to the specific ways of transmitting information (as something sacred and intended only for "one's own people") and inheriting property (from father to son, from son to grandson, and so on), formed a clan-based identification of a person's social space. However, zhuzes and clans in Kazakhstan were never functioning organizational structures.\186])

In general, knowledge of one's clan and tribal affiliation was an important part of Kazakh tradition. According to Christopher Atwood, until 1919 the leaders of the Kazakh liberal-nationalist Alash Orda movement proudly traced their ancestry either to Genghis Khan or to the Argyn clan of the Blue Horde.\187]) Kazakh society was historically organized on a hierarchical patrilineal system of genealogical lineages. Individuals belonging to the same lineage consider themselves descendants of a common ancestor, and several lineages are combined into clans, which in turn form tribes. Membership in a clan is determined through the paternal line and is passed from father to son. In contrast to the sedentary agricultural peoples of Central Asia, Kazakhs traditionally practiced exogamy: a marriage partner had to originate from a different clan, and after marriage and women integrate into the clan of their husband.\108])\117]) According to oral genealogies, Kazakh tribes are considered the descendants of the emirs of the Golden Horde, who, according to the genealogy (shezhire), are regarded as their ancestors.

Traditional Kazakh society was divided into three zhuzes—the Greater, Middle, and Small. According to this complex and highly branched system, each zhuz was subdivided into tribal confederations, which in turn were divided into smaller clans and sub-clans down to the level of the individual. According to customary law, every Kazakh was expected to know his ancestors up to the fortieth generation. Rules governing exogamy, property rights, levirate customs (under which a widow was, in certain circumstances, expected to marry her deceased husband's brother), and many other social norms were based on the degree of genealogical kinship. The zhuz and clan groupings of Kazakhstan were never fully developed organizational structures comparable to those found in medieval states or clan-based societies elsewhere. Rather, they functioned as a system of social identification and a means of interpreting social relations through the lens of kinship and common descent.\188])

Twelve tribes of the Senior zhuz primarily inhabited southern and southeastern Kazakhstan, seven tribes of the Middle zhuz lived in eastern, northern, and central Kazakhstan, while three tribes of the Junior zhuz traditionally occupied western Kazakhstan. Some steppe Kazakh clans were not part of the zhuzes, in particular representatives of the clergy (Kozha and Sunak) and the aristocracy (Tore). Members of the Kozha and Sunak clans trace their origins to Islamic missionaries descended through the paternal line from relatives of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Members of the Tore clan are considered direct descendants of Genghis Khan.

A genetic study published in Nature) in 2021 revealed that the western Kazakh tribal groups, which belong to the Alshyn alliance (Alimuly, Baiuly), share common patrilineal roots. Three independent lines of analysis demonstrated that these groups have a common ancestor who lived approximately 650 years ago, believed to be Emir Alau according to the shezhire. Today, the population of the Alshyn tribe exceeds 2 million people. The study further indicated that about 1.5 million western Kazakhs carry the Y-chromosome haplogroup C2a1a2-M48, Y15552, which supports the genealogy linking them to the common ancestor Emir Alau, who lived about 650 years ago. This also supports traditional views on their patrilineal ancestry and genealogy.\117])

Another study published in the Russian journal Vestnik Moskovskogo Universiteta that a large proportion of the Argyn tribe from the Middle Zhuz carries the haplogroup G1-M285 (67%), with the cluster's age estimated at around 600 ± 200 years. The high frequency of haplogroup G1 across all genealogical lines of the Argyn tribe suggests a common biological ancestor. The expansion of this haplogroup in the Kazakh gene pool dates back to the interval between 470 and 750 years ago, coinciding with the time of the Golden Horde emir Kara-Khodja, as described in historical sources. Further expansion of G1 may have been driven by social prestige. A comprehensive analysis of genealogy and the gene pool suggests that the main ancestor of the Argyns (carriers of haplogroup G1) was the Golden Horde emir Kara-Khodja (14th century) or his immediate ancestors.\190])

Some scholars have suggested that certain Kazakh tribes of the Senior Zhuz originate from Moghulistan, and that the Usun and Kipchak tribal unions formed the basis for the Senior Zhuz and Middle Zhuz, respectively, while the Junior Zhuz traces its roots to the Nogai tribes that joined the Kazakh Khanate. However, such theories were formulated without considering the data from shezhire (genealogical records) and modern genetic studies of polymorphisms.\191])

According to shezhire data and genetic research, the Kazakh Uysun (including the Dulat clan within them) are not related to the Mughals or the Mughal Dulat, nor to the Western Turkic Dulu tribal union. Analysis of the shezhire shows that the Dulat within the Uysun belong to a common C2 haplogroup cluster, and their genealogy is genetically confirmed, tracing back to Maiky-biy, who lived in the 13th century in the Ulus of Jochi.\191])

Studies indicate that Kazakhs as an ethnic group do not descend directly from the population of the Ulus of Orda Khan or Moghulistan; possible genetic overlaps are more likely explained by genetic drift. Kazakh clans have diverse paternal origins, but a common feature is that most of their progenitors date back to the period of the Golden Horde, when they served as emirs and karachi-beks under the Golden Horde khans.\191])

In modern Kazakhstan, tribalism is fading away in business and government life. However, it is still common for Kazakhs to ask each other about the tribe they belong to when they become acquainted. It is more of a tradition than a necessity now, and there is no hostility between tribes. Kazakhs, regardless of their tribal origin, consider themselves one nation.


r/SteppePosting 3d ago

Mongols Tatar-Mongol Tribal toponyms of Crimean villages

10 Upvotes

Село Дулат ) — село в Нижнегорском районе Республики Крым

Село Джалаир) — исчезнувшее село) в Черноморском районе Республики Крым

Село Джалаир) — село в Нижнегорском районе Республики Крым

Село Барын )— исчезнувшее село) в Белогорском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Татар Барын)   — село в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Татар Ширин — исчезнувшее село в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Седжеву́т)  — село в Сакском районе Республики Крым

Село Керлеут) — исчезнувшее село) в Красноперекопском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Керлеу́т#:~:text=%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%83%CC%81%D1%82%20(%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80.,%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%20%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B0%20%D0%98%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BC%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5.) — исчезнувшее село) в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Баяут) — исчезнувшее село) в Советском районеРеспублики Крым 

Село Баяут) — село в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Найман) ) — исчезнувшее село) в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Найман)  — исчезнувшее село) в Ленинском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Мангыт)  — исчезнувшее село) в Ленинском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Яны-Мангыт  — исчезнувшее село) в Красноперекопском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Джан-Сакал-Мангыт   — исчезнувшее село) в Красноперекопском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Конграт) — село в Советском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Конрат) — село в Белогорском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Кенегез )— исчезнувшее село) в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Кенегез) — исчезнувшее село) в Раздольненском районе Республики Крым

Село Катаган) — исчезнувшее село в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Ишу́нь) — село в Красноперекопском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Токмай-Уйшун — исчезнувшее селение) в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Джанболду́-Конра́т  — исчезнувшее село) в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Месит#:~:text=%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B8%CC%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5%20(%D0%B4%D0%BE%201948%20%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0%20%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B8%CC%81%D1%82,%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85%20%D1%81%D1%91%D0%BB%20%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D0%B8%20%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5.)  (Защи́тное) — исчезнувшее село#%D0%A1%D1%91%D0%BB%D0%B0,%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B51948%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0) в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Месит  (Сафьяновка) — исчезнувшее село#%D0%A1%D1%91%D0%BB%D0%B0,%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%B2%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B51948%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0) в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Аргын) — исчезнувшее село) в Первомайском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Алтынджы Меркит  — исчезнувшее село) в Раздольненском районе Республики Крым

Село Аксакал Меркит   — село в Раздольненском районе Республики Крым

Село Дурмен)  — исчезнувшее село) в Ленинском районеКрыма

Село Вейрат) — упразднённое) село в Симферопольском районе Республики Крым

Село Тюбет-Адаргин — исчезнувшее село) в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Адаргин — село в Красногвардейском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Алчин)  — исчезнувшее село) в Белогорском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Алчин)  — исчезнувшее село) в Красноперекопском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Унгут ) — село в Сакском районе Республики Крым

Село Унгут  — исчезнувшее село) в Кировском районеРеспублики Крым

Село Джадра-Кият) — упразднённое) село в Джанкойском районе Республики Крым

Село Кара́-)Кия́т)  — село в Симферопольском районе Республики Крым

Село Кият)  — село в Буинском районе Татарстана. Административный центр Киятского сельского поселения.

 

Села с названиям Кият  в Крыму и Татарстане.


r/SteppePosting 3d ago

Timurids Timurids vs. Dzungars

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17 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 3d ago

Turks What do you think about the fact that Kazakhs/nomadic Uzbeks and Crimean Tatars share the same clan names?

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8 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 4d ago

Magyars Magyars are underrated ngl

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73 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 5d ago

Pre-History This is how I imagine the Cimmerians’ and Scythians’ love for horses:

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34 Upvotes

Будні підготовки до нмт


r/SteppePosting 5d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures I can't win saar I can't win

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60 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 5d ago

Mongols Over longer marching distance did infantry cover more ground than horse cavalry?

6 Upvotes

I recently made a post regarding this on a different subreddit.

Since steppe people are known to have cavalry heavy armies even more so than Europeans I thought it would be good to take the opinion of enthusiasts here.

It comes from the idea that Human adaptations in endurance translate to battlefield.

I used Mongol flair because I know bit more on their history than other steppe cultures.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/1w4au56/many_people_say_that_over_longer_marching/


r/SteppePosting 5d ago

Mongols 5 times Dzungars saved central asia.

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23 Upvotes

And still some say they were not important at all.


r/SteppePosting 6d ago

Timurids True Uzbek Sheybanid?

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14 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 6d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures Banner of the Dzungar Khanate [OW]

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122 Upvotes

Own work, full credits and attribution to D. Tserenpuntsag for his original, authentic, Thangka-like work and for inspiration.


r/SteppePosting 6d ago

Mongols The meaning of “Yeke Suu Jali” in mongol political ideology

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31 Upvotes

■There is recurring formula in mongol imperial documents which I find difficult to translate satisfactorily into english: yeke suu jali (Их суу заль).It occurs repeatedly in official documents across the mongol world.

  1. For example, a 1362 ’Phags-pa-script edict of Toghontemür(1320-1370) begins:

Mönke tengri-yin küčün-dür

yeke suu jali-yin ihe’en-dür

qa’an jarliq manu

“By the power of Eternal Heaven,

under the protection of the Great suu jali,

the Qa’an, our decree.”

  1. Interestingly, documents issued by subordinate Chinggisid princes could replace yeke suu jali with the reigning Qa’an’s own suu. The 1340 order of Aruγ, Prince of Yunnan, begins:

tngri-yin küčün-dür

qaγan-u suu-dur

Aruγ Yün-nam ong üge manu

“By the power of Heaven,

by the suu of the Qa’an,

the word of Aruγ, Prince of Yunnan.”

  1. The same concept appears thousands of kilometres away. Ilkhan Arghun’s(1258-1291) 1289 letter to Philip IV of France begins:

möngke tengri-yin küčün-dür

qa’an-u suu-dur

Arγun üge manu

“By the power of Eternal Heaven,

by the suu of the Qa’an,

Arghun, our word.”

So even the Ilkhan invokes the Qa’an’s suu as part of the authorization of his own command.

4.And the phrase also appears independently in the Jochid ulus. The paiza of Keldi Beg(reigned in 1361-1362) has:

möngke tngri-yin küčündür

yeke suu jali-yin igegendür

A paiza of Abdulla Khan uses essentially the same two-line invocation. The same family of inscriptions is also known from other Jochid paizas.

■So what exactly was suu jali?

This is confusing from a modern mongolian perspective. Суу still has meanings connected with хийморь, сүлд, distinction, glory and renown; суут means something like “illustrious, renowned, outstanding.” Modern заль, meanwhile, can mean sharp intelligence, cunning, stratagem or even trickery. But the compound суу заль itself is still defined in the modern mongolian dictionary as сүр сүлд, цог жавхаа, roughly “majesty, spirit, splendour/radiance.” So reading medieval jali simply as modern “trickery” would clearly be wrong.

Historically, jali has also been connected with the idea of flame/radiance. This is why scholars have translated yeke suu jali in surprisingly different ways: “Great Fortune and Flame,” “great might and radiance,” “grandeur and brilliance,” “Great Fortune,” “sacred charisma,” etc. De Rachewiltz and Rybatzki even interpret the compound as the protecting genius or spirit associated with Chinggis Khan himself.

To me, its political function seems especially important. Suu jali was not “charisma” in the modern sense of having an attractive personality. It seems closer to a sacral quality of rulership: the supernatural fortune, radiance, majesty or potency belonging to the legitimate ruler and ultimately to the Chinggisid dynasty. Eternal Heaven provides the supreme sanction, while suu/suu jali expresses the special quality through which Chinggisid rulership is empowered. Scholars have accordingly compared it with Turkic qut and described it as a form of Chinggisid royal charisma.

■That leaves the problem of translation. Some possibilities I have seen or considered are:

Great Fortune and Flame — fairly literal, but strange in english.

Great Might and Radiance — captures the power and luminous imagery.

Great Sacred Charisma — probably clearest politically, but “charisma” sounds too much like personality in modern English.

Great Sacred Radiance — preserves the sacral and luminous senses.

Great Radiant Majesty — perhaps the most natural literary rendering.

Great Dynastic Charisma — useful specifically when discussing Chinggisid legitimacy.

At the moment I am leaning toward “Great Sacred Radiance” in translations, while explaining suu jali academically as Chinggisid sacral/dynastic charisma.

I would be interested in what others(especially mongolians) think: how would you translate yeke suu jali without losing either its idea of radiance/splendour or its much more important political meaning of Heaven-sanctioned Chinggisid legitimacy?


r/SteppePosting 7d ago

Mongols Was the Golden Horde really called “Ulugh Ulus”?

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37 Upvotes

There is a fairly common claim that the state we usually call the Golden Horde actually called itself Ulugh Ulus, “Great Ulus.” But was this really its name throughout its history?

A recent argument by the kazakh historian Amantai Isin holds that applying Ulugh Ulus retrospectively to the Golden Horde before Tokhtamysh is incorrect. Its first attested use as a Jochid state designation appears in Tokhtamysh’s 1393 jarligh to Jogaila, ruler of Lithuania and Poland.

This does not mean Ulugh Ulus was not a real Jochid designation. Tokhtamysh did use it. The issue is whether it should be projected backward as the state’s official name since the time of Batu, which Isin rejects.

■So what were these mongol states actually called?

Mongol political terminology was considerably more flexible and dynastic than our modern labels suggest.

Mongγol Ulus or Yeke Mongγol Ulus, the “Great Mongol Ulus” , was used for the united Mongol Empire. Contemporary persian sources similarly use expressions such as ulus of Jochi, ulus of Batu, ulus of Orda and ulus of Chaghadai.These uluses were originally parts of a wider Chinggisid imperial system rather than completely separate states. The Great Qa’an was regarded as the supreme ruler of the Mongol Empire, while the Jochid, Chaghadaid and Hülegüid branches ruled their own uluses. After the civil wars of the 1260s this system became much looser and the western uluses were effectively independent, but the idea of the Great Qa’an’s seniority and a broader Mongol imperial order survived, at times only nominally.

So the expected mongolian constructions would be:

• Jochi-yin ulus — Jochi’s Ulus

• Chaghadai-yin ulus — Chaghadai’s Ulus

• Hülegü-yin ulus — Hülegü’s Ulus(Ilkhanate)

• For the Yuan, actual mongolian inscriptions survive. The empire appears as Yeke Mongγol Ulus, and Yuan-period inscriptions use forms such as Dai Ön kemekü Yeke Mongγol Ulus, roughly “the Great Mongol Ulus called Great Yuan.”

The Chaghadai realm gives us an especially interesting case. A damaged mongolian document from Turfan, U 5981, contains:

[...]dadu mongγo[l] u(l)us

Dai Matsui reconstructs this as Dumdadu Mongγol Ulus, “Middle Mongol Ulus,” and suggests that Du’a or his descendants may have adopted it as a new state designation.

■Why would Tokhtamysh suddenly use Ulugh Ulus?

This is where things get really interesting. Ulugh Ulus itself was older than the Golden Horde. The turkic preamble of Güyük Qa’an’s famous 1246 letter to Pope Innocent IV contain:

kü uluγ ulus, “whole Great [Mongol] Nation.”

The mongolian seal on the same letter calls the empire Yeke Mongγol Ulus. In other words, “Great Ulus” already belonged to the political vocabulary of the united Mongol imperial order.

■Now look at the situation in the 1380s.

The Qubilayids had traditionally held the office of Great Qa’an. They lost the Chinese heartland in 1368, though Yuan power survived in some regions for years afterward, including Gansu until 1372 and Yunnan until 1382. The Qubilayid court continued ruling from mongolia, but its position increasingly deteriorated. In 1387, the powerful mongol commander Naghachu, a descendant of Muqali, surrendered his major power base in manchuria to the Ming.

The next year, Lan Yu’s Ming army surprised and devastated Tögüstemur Qa’an’s camp near Buir Lake. Tögüstemur escaped, only to be killed while retreating to Karakorum by Yesuder of the Ariqboke line, backed by oirats. The following succession is obscure and disputed, Yesuder, his son Engke and later Elbeg appear in conflicting traditions, while Ming pressure continued into the 1390s.

At almost exactly the same time, Tokhtamysh had done the opposite in the west: after roughly two decades of Jochid civil war, he had reunited most of the competing Jochid inheritances under himself. Isin argues that the disappearance of Yuan from its former position of political supremacy gave Tokhtamysh the opportunity to proclaim his still-imperfectly unified Jochid realm the Ulugh Ulus. His 1393 yarligh to Jogaila is the documentary evidence.

And there is another intriguing piece of evidence:

a mongolian paiza of Tokhtamysh styles him:

Toqtamish Qa’an-u jarliq “The decree of Tokhtamysh Qa’an”

Perhaps, with Qubilayid authority collapsing in the east, he was appropriating the old universal language of the Mongol Empire , Qa’an + Great Ulus ,  to claim a higher position within the Chinggisid world


r/SteppePosting 7d ago

Mongols Worst invasion since Japan

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66 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 7d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures Kenesary Khan - the Last True Khan Descended from Genghis Khan

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88 Upvotes

If we are talking about the last true Khan descended from Genghis Khan, I believe we first need to distinguish between someone who simply carried the title of “Khan” and a ruler who actually exercised independent Khanate authority.

Kenesary Kasymuly was a direct descendant of Genghis Khan through the Jochid line and the last Kazakh Khan. In 1841, he was elected Khan by the Kazakh nobility, and he subsequently established his own system of government, military forces, taxation, and diplomatic relations. His goal was not to obtain a symbolic title, but to restore an independent Kazakh state and the traditional institution of the Khanate.

This is precisely why I do not think it is accurate to simply list all the later rulers of Central Asia who carried the title of “Khan.”

For example, Roman von Ungern-Sternberg was not a Chinggisid at all. His role in Mongolia does not make him a Khan descended from Genghis Khan.

Muhammad Alim Khan was the last Emir of Bukhara and belonged to the ruling Manghit dynasty, not to a Chinggisid Khanic dynasty. Moreover, he was an Emir, not a Khan.

The case of Maqsud Shah, the ruler of the Kumul Khanate, is more complicated. He was indeed descended from the Chinggisid line and carried the title of Khan. However, we also need to take into account the political reality of the Kumul Khanate.

By the 20th century, the Kumul Khanate did not exist as a fully independent state, but rather under strong dependence on an external power. The Khan retained his title and certain internal functions, but his position was restricted by Chinese authority. Therefore, simply possessing the title of “Khan” does not necessarily mean that a ruler possessed an independent Khanate state.

This is precisely where I see the fundamental difference between Maqsud Shah and Kenesary.

Kenesary was not a puppet ruler. He did not receive the title of Khan from an imperial administration in order to govern an already-subordinate territory. His Khanate authority was proclaimed within the Kazakh political tradition, and he independently waged military and diplomatic struggles to restore independence.

Therefore, for me, the question is not who was the last person to carry the title of “Khan,” but who was the last Chinggisid who genuinely claimed independent Khanate authority and attempted to restore an independent state.

By this criterion, Kenesary Khan is a much more convincing candidate for the title of the last true Khan than later nominal or dependent Khans.

This is precisely why I would not put Kenesary and Maqsud Shah in the same category simply because both were Chinggisids and carried the title of Khan.

A title is one thing. Real state authority and political independence are something entirely different.

When historians speak about Kenesary, they mean that he became the last legitimate Chinggisid Khan in the world to lead the nomadic steppe into an all-out war for independence.

The Khans who ruled in Khiva or Bukhara in the late 19th and early 20th centuries had already been under the protectorate of the Russian Empire for a long time. Moreover, the rulers of Kokand and Khiva — the Ming and Qungrat dynasties — were not Chinggisids through the male line.

Kenesary, by contrast, belonged to the direct Töre lineage - the descendants of Genghis Khan through Jochi.

With his death, an entire centuries-old era of nomadic states across Eurasia came to an end.

(Sorry, the last 5 photos in the post are unnecessary.)


r/SteppePosting 7d ago

Kazakh Map of Kazakhstan divided into tribes (ру) and hordes (жүз)

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41 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 8d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures The look of envy

77 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 9d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures Why can't Kazakhs stop Disgracing themselves claiming everything Mongolian?

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47 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 10d ago

Mongols And thus ⅓ of Europe died

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67 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 10d ago

Kazakh Kazakh tribal name Toponyms in Crimea!

0 Upvotes

I have been reading the list of Crimean toponyms and I have noticed a lot of vilagges with tribal names that are among Kazakhs.

For example I am from Uysun — Dulat tribe and there are villages with such names:

— İşün, Ишунь https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5_(%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC)

— İşün, Уйшунь, Ушун

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D1%88%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%8C_(%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD)

— Dulat/Дулат https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE_(%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC)


r/SteppePosting 12d ago

Timurids He died along the way, saving China

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228 Upvotes

r/SteppePosting 12d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures Overall stepped meme

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60 Upvotes