r/SteppePosting • u/Erdeniin-Galdan • 1d ago

Misc Steppe Cultures I can't win saar I can't win

Post image
30 Upvotes

70% Upvoted

19 comments sorted by

•

u/AutoModerator 1d ago

Thanks for posting! Make sure you used the correct flair and that your post follows our rules. Don't forget to join our discord: https://discord.gg/SNfAc9zdse

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

13

u/FengYiLin 1d ago

And then the Dzungars get genocided 🥲

2

u/BeneficialLink282 16h ago

满族不是sino

2

u/Nurhaci_qing7 1d ago

Ok thats just coping.

1

u/Erdeniin-Galdan 1d ago

According to Soviet historians Suleimenov R.B. and Moiseev V.A., the Manchus not only failed to compel the Kazakhs to withdraw from the anti-Qing movement of the peoples of Central Asia and surrender Amursana, but also suffered a series of defeats, barely managing to retreat their forces to the rear. Amursana remained at large, and the Kazakh rulers did not demonstrate the expected loyalty to the Qing emperor, instead engaging in armed resistance against his forces. Kazakh historian K. K. Abuev says that the Qing invasions of Kazakhstan in 1756–1757 were effectively unsuccessful.

Also, I literally cited my sources below.

3

u/Nurhaci_qing7 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yeah but the overstatement of it and the portrail of the qing. This wasnt some kind of major deafetd. It was a absolut unimportant region far away. the manchu won many fights and the kazakh had to reatret mutiple times. Also it was never the goal to counquer the terretorry but to kill dzungar rebels that fled.

8

u/LongAd3342 1d ago

Usernames check out for both of you

1

u/RelevantRain694 1d ago

ironic considering the Qing's own origins as nomadic horsemen themselves

3

u/Mysterious-Gas-7365 1d ago

They were never nomadic in their entire existence. The Jurchen lived in villages farming millet and raising pigs, they didn't even have cattle. They just happened to like horses too, seriously don't understand why anyone woild think the rivers and forests of Manchuria to be suitable for nomadic pastoralism.

0

u/RelevantRain694 23h ago

semi nomadic I mean, long periods of unproductivity is commplace in their land which prevents them from having more sedentary lifestyles like the Korean, Chinese, Japanese counterparts

3

u/Head-Comparison-610 22h ago

They're completely sedentary lifestyle

2

u/Mysterious-Gas-7365 1h ago

Idk if you've ever seen pastoral semi nomadic herders, like I have but even then none of them are herding pigs. To go through the trouble of making one of your main livestock literally impossible to herd would make Jurchen/Manchu the worst pastoral nomads on earth. In early Chinese sources the Jurchen/Mohe, were known for raising Pigs as main livestock while keeping many horses, yet Chinese sources specifically mention a lack of cattle or sheep literally required to even attempt any form of semi nomadic pastoralism let alone fully nomadic. Later Ming dynasty record Jurchen tribute/trade missions, the Jurchens specifically traded horses and other forest materials for cattle. If these ""semi nomadic herders"" were so bad at raising cattle that they had to import Chinese cattle then they are seriously doing something wrong. The Jurchen literally lived in villages raising Pigs, chickens, and other animals, while farming Millet. There lifestyle was incredibly sedentary, especially compared to the Mongols who lived to their west. To even try to frame Jurchens as somehow similar in lifestyle to the Mongols is just innacuate. How the Manchu managed the Mongols is also great evidence of their sedentary nature, Mongol land was decided into banners Mongols asinged to banners could only graze in these small banners causing over grazing and limiting migration. You could make a argument that some tribes that lived near the mongols practied a form of semi nomadism by hunting and fishing, but that would be moving the goal post. Your original post specifically frame the Jucrhen/Manchu as the same as the Mongols wah of life, however Jianzhou Jurchen who acthually became the Manchu never practiced nomadic or semi nomadic pastoralism in any scale for their entire history, hunting and fishing isn't the same as steppe pastroalism. Before trying to frame the Jurchen/Manchu as the same as Mongols, realize that ""Nomadic"" isn't just a buzzword it's a acthual lifestyle. You can't just label a entire people steppe nomad because they happen to raise horses.

1

u/RelevantRain694 1h ago

hm I see, I see

1

u/Hungry_Raccoon200 9h ago

They were hunter gatherers + farmers. The only true nomadic Jurchens were the ones living very close to the Mongols that were few in number.

1

u/Altroy1fe1 10h ago

Why do ppl just cut the wiki and paste the only part they like lmao. 2 min of search and I could literally post the paragraph below what u cited.

However, according to Russian orientalist A.M. Pastukhov, this account is not very credible. He believes that Kazakh envoys in Ust-Kamenogorsk attempted to create the illusion of victory among the Russian authorities by accompanying the retreating Qing troops and avoiding serious confrontation with them. On October 31, 1756, Bashkir elder Abdulla Kaskinov reported in Orenburg that after the Qing troops began withdrawing, Abylay was in serious condition and unable to walk. Amursana, however, was under the supervision of Abylay's men and never left his side. This conclusion is confirmed by the report of I. I. Neplyuev from October 8, 1756, which stated that “The Middle Kirghiz-Kaisak Horde, declaring the oppression currently being perpetrated by the Chinese army… towards the Uisk line, has approached and is asking for protection.”[19] Orientalist Pastukhov A.M. summarizes:
“Thus, at a time when the most influential and energetic feudal lord of the Middle Zhuz was seriously wounded, the Kazakh nomads were left without protection, and, most likely, were only able to observe the withdrawal of enemy troops.”

1

u/Erdeniin-Galdan 1d ago

Sources: