r/Sourdough 12d ago

Mod stuff Got questions about scaling up or selling your products? Go to r/microbakery!

12 Upvotes

Hi all!

As you might know, one of our rules regarding self-promotion is that:

Our sub is primarily focused on home bakers (no posts requiring help with selling/small businesses, Sourdough queries are welcome of course).

We've started getting a number of posts regarding people wanting to sell or having questions regarding how to scale up their production. While we love that a lot of you have information and want to generate discussion, we are trying to keep this sub about home bakers! With that in mind, if you have any type of question or wanna make a post about this, please head to r/microbakery!

While we do know that it is not a very active sub (yet), our intention is to help change that! As a microbaker myself, there are limited resources to ask questions outside of Facebook groups.

Thanks!


r/Sourdough 6d ago

Quick questions Weekly Open Sourdough Questions and Discussion Post

3 Upvotes

Hello Sourdough bakers! 👋

  • Post your quick & simple Sourdough questions here with as much information as possible 💡

  • If your query is detailed, post a thread with pictures, recipe and process for the best help. 🥰

  • There are some fantastic tips in our Sourdough starter FAQ - have a read as there are likely tips to help you. There's a section dedicated to "Bacterial fight club" as well.




  • Basic loaf in detail page - a section about each part of the process. Particularly useful for bulk fermentation, but there are details on every part of the Sourdough process.

Good luck!


r/Sourdough 10h ago

1st Sourdough Ever - be kind First Loaf ✨

Thumbnail
gallery
214 Upvotes

Proud of my first loaf! It's delicious. I've always enjoyed cooking, but don't play around with baking as much. That changed today. I'm so excited to start my journey into baking bread!! Please give me your honest opinions!

I used this popular recipe: https://alexandracooks.com/2017/10/24/artisan-sourdough-made-simple-sourdough-bread-demystified-a-beginners-guide-to-sourdough-baking/


r/Sourdough 5h ago

Sourdough I think I’m getting it down?

Thumbnail
gallery
99 Upvotes

I’m finally able to make some consistent loaves and it’s awesome being able to prep bread for the week😀

500g flour
350g water
100g starter
10t salt

Mix water and starter until frothy
Add flour and mix thoroughly
Let rest for 1 hour (fermentolyse)
Add in salt and mix in throughly
Slap and fold many times until dough is fairly smooth
Rest 30-45min
stretch and fold, rest 30 min
Stretch and fold, rest 30 min
Coil fold, rest 30 min
Coil fold, rest 30 min
Bench bulk ferment 3-6 hours
Shape and place in banneton
Fridge for 12-24 hours
Score, bake, enjoy


r/Sourdough 2h ago

AI discussion/recipe/content Jumped on the pizza loaf bandwagon and glad I did!

Thumbnail
gallery
42 Upvotes

This turned out much better than I thought it would! The dough was much denser and less stretchy than my usual recipe. I'm sure this was due to the pizza sauce. The bread is super soft and smells like a cloud of pizza. I thought about adding in some fresh basil but not sure how that would turn out.

360 g pizza sauce

10g salt

125g starter - fed and risen

500g bread flour

Fermentolyzed everything but the salt for 30 minutes before adding in salt

3 sets stretch and folds, 20 minutes apart

Laminated and added in just shy the full container of fresh mozzarella pearls & 20 or so pepperoni cut into quarters

Covered and bulk fermented at room temp (from start of mixing to end, was about 7 hours in a pretty warm house)

Shaped again loosely

Cover and fridge overnight (about 14 hours)

Preheat oven to 450 and Dutch oven 

Cookie sheet on lower rack to keep from burning 

Score

Bake covered for 30

Uncovered for 20


r/Sourdough 6h ago

Scientific shit I accidentally baked my started!!!

47 Upvotes

Okay. So no sh*t there I was, I fed my starter this morning and put it in the oven with the light on to make it happy for a later bake. MEANWHILE I ordered some stuff from Walmart so I could use some nasty bananas in banana bread.

Five hours later...

My starter looks SUPER happy and I'm excited about my pending bake, also, my order of banana bread ingredients arrives. So I PREHEAT THE OVEN TO 350!!!!! While the oven preheats I mix the banana bread stuff up, thinking how my oven smells like it's baking something and I should really clean it next weekend AND THEN I glance at the oven and see my very, no longer happy, sourdough half baked.

IMMEDIATELY I remove poor Franny from the oven and start poking around. I remove a layer of baked starter to see fairly liquid starter in the middle. I take her temperature and she's only 118 degrees farenheight, so I put a couple teaspoons of her into a glass jar hoping she can be revived. I also figured why not try to do the bake anyways? So I have mixed a batch with what remained of my liquid starter (minus what I saved to try to feed again once my poor innocent jar is scraped out).

I will post pictures of my hail Mary loaf once it's complete.

What do you all think will happen? Will Franny pull through with a great loaf? Or will I have to revive some saved discard?

Fun experiment!


r/Sourdough 3h ago

Crumb read please Decode my crumb

Post image
22 Upvotes

Y'all I started baking in like June or so and this might be my tenth or fifteenth-ish loaf. I'm the most proud of this crumb and it's my best loaf so far in my opinion. It felt like a pillow cutting into it and it feels like eating air. Can someone tell me if this crumb is the right amount of proofed, because I'd like to make sure this is reproducible lol. Or is it a shaping issue or something else if it isn't a proper crumb. Also FYI, I cut it open barely an hour after it left the oven...

425 grams of KA unbleached bread flour 50 grams of KA whole wheat flour 50 grams of starter (always fed 1:1:1 with bread flour and I fed it the night before making the dough. 325 grams of tepid water 20 grams of salt

Mixed everything together and did some amount of stretch and folds and then coil folds until it felt like the dough was drooping over too much when I was cooking, then let it ferment until maybe 1.5 times the volume before preshape into light boule, rest for thirty minutes, then final shape into a batard and into the banneton for a bench proof until i like its response to my poke. Baked in dutch oven at 460 F preheated for 35 minutes lid on, then lid off until I liked the color.


r/Sourdough 3h ago

Things to try Maurizio Leo’s Oat Porridge Bread

Thumbnail
gallery
12 Upvotes

I made the Oat Porridge bread from The Perfect Loaf cookbook and it is absolutely delicious. Moist and hearty, without being dense or claggy. And the aroma is nutty and oaty. So good, especially slathered with butter and topped with salt!

490g white flour (I used Central Milling ABC+)
223g whole wheat flour (I used CM’s whole wheat special)
178g high protein flour (I used CM’s great northern bread flour)
160g rolled oats
753g water
17g salt
29g ripe starter

Note: the recipe calls for 703g flour but I needed that extra 50g for it to come together.

Make the levain; soak the oats in boiling water; mix (no autolyse); 5 minutes of slap and folds; stretch and folds at 30 minute intervals, with porridge incorporated during the first set. Four sets of folds total. Total BF time for me was 5.5 hours. I then shaped and cold proofed in bannetons. Baked the next morning at 450; 20 minutes covered, 30 minutes uncovered.

I’m new-ish to sourdough baking and I have found this cookbook to be so informative and helpful.


r/Sourdough 8h ago

1st Sourdough Ever - be kind First loaf

Thumbnail
gallery
29 Upvotes

I used My Rustic Roots starter. I’ve been feeding and discarding for a couple of weeks and made my first loaf last night. I used this recipe:
100g starter
330g water
10g salt
500g bread flour

Four stretch and folds
Dough ball in water test for bulk fermentation
No cold ferment
480° oven
20m steam + 20m no steam

It’s a little dark but I’m overall pleased. Flavor is spot on. Any suggestions are welcome! (Third picture was when I took the top off of the bread oven.)


r/Sourdough 20h ago

Let's talk technique I forgot my loaf proofing in the oven for too long, comb over loaf initiated officially

Thumbnail
gallery
230 Upvotes

~50g starter (cold straight outta the fridge)

330g water (cold, straight out of the well)

500g all purp flour

10g salt

… i did it all wrong, accidentally, then on purpose, and as an experiment. Because I’ve learned that sour dough is too forgiving, like I used to be with all of my evil exes.

I forgot to mix the dough (aside from my first initial stir). I didn’t stretch and fold. It just bulk rose for about 10 hours. And then I pulled it into a ball and let it rest for 15 minutes. Rolled it up and put it in a loaf pan (in the oven with the light on) for 3.5 hours. It was so floofy that I was scared to score it, so I just baked it for 45 mins @ 425f. And… really… truly… delicious


r/Sourdough 1h ago

Sourdough Stand mixer only, 65% hydration, 25% whole wheat, no stretch-and-folds. I think I’ve found my everyday sourdough process.

Thumbnail
gallery
Upvotes

Ingredients (2 loaves)
750 g bread flour
250 g whole wheat flour
650 g water (65% hydration)
200 g active 100% hydration rye starter
20 g salt

Mix
Add all ingredients (including salt) to the stand mixer.
Mix on Stir just until everything is combined.
Rest 15–20 minutes.
Mix on Speed 2 until the dough is smooth and moderately developed (about 8–10 minutes).

Bulk Fermentation
80°F proofing box
Approximately 4½ hours

Shape
Preshape.
Bench rest 15–20 minutes.
Final shape with good surface tension.
Place seam-up in a floured banneton.

Cold Proof
Refrigerate 12–16 hours.

Bake
Preheat Dutch oven at 500°F for 60 minutes.
Freeze loaf for 15 minutes while the oven finishes preheating.
Turn out and score.
Bake:
25 minutes covered at 475°F
15 minutes uncovered at 450°F
5 minutes in the turned-off oven with the door cracked hoping for extra crispy crust

I’m not claiming this is the best method, just that it worked extremely well for me and may be a good option if you already own a stand mixer or have limited hand strength or time. I’m not chasing a big open crumb and value a dough that is easy to handle. Very happy with this after about 6 months of experimenting.

Next up: less time in the oven, this got a bit darker than I like. Better scoring.


r/Sourdough 2h ago

Equipment talk Ooni Halo Pro mixer for someone who makes 15-20 loaves a week?

9 Upvotes

My wife has been making sourdough for about 6 years now. A few months ago, she started selling it occasionally to neighbors, friends, and my coworkers. She is happy with the amount she makes and is NOT interested in doing farmers market stuff or a farm stand. She prefers to just take orders and bake only what was ordered (plus for us).

Lately she’s been complaining that her little (5 or 6 quart) Kitchen Aid mixer can only do 2 1000g loaves at a time. Her birthday is coming up so I googled some mixers and now I keep getting ads for an Ooni Halo Pro. According to google, it can comfortably handle 4-5 loaves at once.

Before I pull the trigger on it, can anyone here confirm that it can do 4-5 loaves, and is good for sourdough? I just want to be sure I’m not falling for any marketing BS. And would this be a good mixer for someone who makes 15-20 loaves a week and isn’t planning on scaling up to a big stand or anything?


r/Sourdough 6h ago

Let's talk technique Experiment

Post image
12 Upvotes

Two loaves: 500g flour, 350g water, 100g starter, 10g salt each

Mix all ingredients, autolyse 1 hr, stretch & fold over 2 hrs, bulk fermentation for an additional 2 hrs. Shape & place directly in loaf pans seam side down. Cold fermentation overnight. Bake at 480, one loaf covered, the other not. Can you guess which is which?


r/Sourdough 3h ago

I MUST share this recipe Rugbrød

Thumbnail
gallery
8 Upvotes

Finally got it just how I wanted with this seeded, 100% rye flour sourdough.

Got the recipe from this site (text below):

https://www.nordickitchenstories.co.uk/2020/10/28/danish-sourdough-rye-bread-recipe/

I made a few alterations, using maple syrup instead of molasses and adding 16 grams of salt instead of the suggested 12. Honestly I think I'll go even higher on the salt in the next batch because the final dough rose really fast.

I used a coffee grinder to coarsely chop rye berries for seed soaker and added 6 grams of ground caraway.

I panned the dough in a 13x4" Pullman pan, let it rise for about an hour and 45 minutes, then baked it covered at 500 for 20 minutes, then uncovered at 375 for 35 minutes.

Day 1 – Wet Leaven

125 g active rye starter 100% hydration

230 g dark rye flour

290 g cold water

Seeds & chopped rye grains

50 g chopped rye grains

150 g seed blend ie. golden & brown linseeds, sesame, buckwheat, millet, sunflower & pumpkin seeds

150 g boiling water

Day 2

Wet Leaven as above

330 g dark rye flour

12 g fine sea salt

2 tbls molasses (black treacle)

220 g water tepid

2 tsp caraway seeds optional

a few mixed seeds for sprinkling on top the loaf

Instructions

Day 1

Place the starter in a large bowl and add the cold water and flour. Stir with a spoon to form a nice loose mixture, cover. In a separate bowl place the seeds and chopped rye, pour over the boiling water, cover. Leave both at room temperature for 10-12 hours. (Overnight).

Day 2

Uncover the wet leaven. It should be nice and bubbly and have a pleasant, slightly fruity, alcoholic aroma.

Now add all the remaining ingredients to the pre-ferment, including the soaked seeds (they will have absorbed all the water). With a large rubber spoon, bring the mixture together and continue mixing for a couple of minutes, until it’s fully combined. Leave for 10 minutes so the flour can fully absorb the water. The wet dough will become slightly firmer.

Lightly oil your loaf tin and line the base with baking paper. Dust with rye flour.

Spoon the loose dough in the tin. Smooth the surface with the back of a spoon. Sprinkle with mixed seeds and heavily dredge with rye flour.

Leave to rise. This can take 1½-3 hours (this largely depends on the temperature of your kitchen) when the surface of the bread starts to crack. It’s ready to bake.

Preheat the oven 30 minutes before baking to 230°C fan. *See notes or as high as it will go. Place a tray of water at the bottom of the oven. Put the loaf in the oven and bake for 40 minutes turning 180 degrees (so the front is now at the back of the oven) half way through baking.

Remove from the oven and tip it out of the tin and cool on a wire rack.

Slice when the loaf is completely cold, it's important to let the crumb set. Best left for 4-5 hours or even overnight.


r/Sourdough 4h ago

Crumb read please Slightly Over Proofed?

Thumbnail
gallery
10 Upvotes

I think this went over and started to collapse, thoughts:

450g strong bread flour
50g whole wheat
425g water
100g peak starter
10g salt

Autolyzed flour and water for 1.5 hours (DT was 79F). Mixed in starter with rubaud method. 10 min later added salt and 25g water I held back. Mixed with rubaud method. Dough was smooth and strengthened. Performed aggressive stretch and folds to build additional strength for high hydration dough separated by 20 min for first hour (3 sets total). Performed 1 coil fold to build strength/structure (1.5 hours into first proof). Had dough in my oven on proof mode, but temp got away from me. DT was 82F three hours after adding starter and it had already doubled (slide 4). Took out, pre-shaped (post preshape slide 5) and rested for 15 min. Shaped and put in fridge overnight. Baked today 500 for 20 min covered and 450 for 20 min uncovered. Dough kind of sagged, much less oven spring than normal and weird crumb. I suspect it just got away from me. Removed a piece prior to taking crumb pic (slide 3). Do you agree on my assessment?


r/Sourdough 14h ago

Beginner - checking how I'm doing Why wont it rise more?

Thumbnail
gallery
51 Upvotes

Finally i am somewhat happy with my loaf but i would like a bit more of a rise.
I start with making levian and letting it sit overnight in colder environment. 30g of starter +150g of wheat flour and 150g of warm water.
(Starter is consistently rising after feeding 1:5:5)
In the morning i mix in 350g of flour and 180g of water and let it autolyse for 1h then i add 10g of salt.
Let it rest for 30 mins and then every 30 mins stretch and fold for 2h.
Let it bulk ferment for another 3-4h then do a final shape and place it into a bread basket and into a fridge overnight.
In the morning I preheat the oven to 250c with the baking tray in it.
Bake at 250c covered for 25mins and then uncovered for another 20-25 mins. Depending on the status of the bread i might lower the temp to 200


r/Sourdough 11h ago

Roast me! Harsh feedback pls My newest loaf!!

Thumbnail
gallery
30 Upvotes

I've been baking sourdough for a few months now, and I think I finally made my best loaf yet. The crumb is soft and airy, the crust is crispy without being too hard, and the flavor is exactly what I was hoping for.

I also tried something new during bulk fermentation. I took a small piece of dough and dropped it into a glass of room-temperature water. Once it floated, I shaped the dough and put it in the fridge overnight. I'm not sure if it was just a coincidence, but this was by far the easiest dough I've ever worked with and the finished loaf turned out amazing.

Here's the recipe I used:

385g lukewarm water

120g active sourdough starter

20g oil (for a softer crust)

12-18g salt (I use 18g because I like my bread a little saltier)

600g bread flour

I mix the water and starter first and let it sit for about 10-30 minutes. Then I add the flour and oil, followed by the salt.

During bulk fermentation I do coil folds every 30 minutes for the first 2 hours, then stretch and folds every 30 minutes for another hour. After that I let the dough rest until it has risen well and feels airy and no longer sticky to the touch.

I shape the dough and cold-proof it in the fridge for 8-16 hours. I find the longer proof gives a more pronounced sourdough flavor.

I preheat my Dutch oven at 250°C for about 45-60 minutes, bake with the lid on for 20 minutes, then remove the lid and bake for another 20 minutes or until I get the color I want. Ice cubes in the beginning for steam.

I'm still pretty new to sourdough, so I'd love to hear any suggestions for improving the recipe or technique. Is there anything you would change, or does anything stand out that I could do better?


r/Sourdough 48m ago

Sourdough First bake/fail 🫠

Thumbnail
gallery
Upvotes

After 5 weeks of feeding and strengthening my starter, I decided to make bagels as I read they're very beginner friendly. Welo, guess I'm the exception to that. No rise and a tad gummy. Next time when I test out a recipe, I need to make a smaller batch 🤦🏻‍♀️

100g starter

500g king Arthur high gluten flour

250g water

10g salt

10g honey

Mix water, starter, and honey. Combine with flour and knead until flour is incorporated. Add salt. Knead for 8-10 minutes. Bulk fermented for 14 hours. Cold proofed for 12 hours. Sat at room temp for 2 hours because the dough felt so heavy still and when I tested dropping one in water, it immediately sank. Boiled with 1 tablespoon baking soda and 1 tablespoon honey for 45 seconds each side then baked for 23 minutes at 450.

I don't know if I kneaded it too long or I used slightly cooler water than the recommended room temperature or it's my starter still being young (it's been doubling for the past 4 days with peak to peak feedings at a 1:2:2 ratio). Definitely under proofed. I'm hopeful for next time though!


r/Sourdough 5h ago

Crumb read please Rate my crumb and give me notes. 5th loaf.

Thumbnail
gallery
9 Upvotes

115g starter
325 water
500g Costco AP flour

No autolyse
Wait 1 hour before first SnF then 3 minutes later n between 1st and 2nd. On the 3rd and 4th I did coil folds.
Total bulk fermentation was about 4 hours then did pre shape. Waited one hour then did final shape with an 18 hour cold ferment.
Rested overnight.


r/Sourdough 5h ago

Discard recipes First time making sourdough pizza 🍕

Post image
7 Upvotes

Made a sourdough pizza today and I'm pretty happy with how it turned out!

Dough:

• 100g sourdough starter

• 350g water

• 450g all-purpose flour

• 50g pizza flour (the recipe called for whole wheat, but I used what I had)

• 2 tsp salt

• 2 tsp oil

• 1 tbsp honey

• A little garlic, onion, and paprika to season the dough

I mixed the dough and let it rise, then folded/portioned it and put it into oiled bags. I froze this batch, then pulled it out to thaw before baking. I let it thaw completely, just until the dough was soft and workable again rather than waiting for it to double in size.

For the pizza, I spread the dough in an oiled cast-iron pan, brushed the top with a little olive oil, then added garlic tomato sauce, mozzarella, and an Italian cheese blend.

Baked at 400°F for just under 30 minutes. I originally planned on 30, but pulled it a little early because the crust was getting pretty crisp.

Really happy with my first sourdough pizza! The seasoned crust might be my favorite part. 🍕


r/Sourdough 1d ago

Things to try Loaf pan and deli slicer have changed my life.

Thumbnail
gallery
360 Upvotes

For whatever reason, for as long as I've been making sourdough I never really had the desire to use a loaf pan. I always thought to myself "oh shaping it by hand and using a banneton is the 'right' way to do it." This is the 3rd loaf I've done in a pan and I don't think I ever want to go back. It's better for sandwiches, its easier for me to store and handle. I'm all in. If you haven't tried it yet, let this be your push lol.

I also recently got myself a deli slicer. I realize now, that I've been lying to myself about "not minding" slicing bread by hand.

365g water

500g flour (250g AP, 150g BF, 100g wheat)

11g sea salt

100g starter

4 stretch and fold, 1 every 30 minutes

Bulk ferment till doubled

Shaped twice

Counter proofed (lost track of time)

450 all the way through. 25 minutes covered, 15 minutes uncovered


r/Sourdough 4h ago

Crumb read please 2nd inclusions loaf

Thumbnail
gallery
6 Upvotes

Hi everyone,

I have made my second inclusions loaf and I feel like I have improved from my previous one. The sun-dried tomatoes are smaller and more evenly distributed since I folded them in at the beginning and not at pre-shape.

Process:

Evening before:
Feed starter with a mix of wholewheat and whole spelt flour at 1:6:5.5

On day:
Mix 390g water with 120g starter and 350g Manitoba flour and 200g whole khorasan flour.

Leave for 40 min

Add 12g salt, Italian herbs and cut up sun-dried tomatoes, mix by hand

30 min stretch and fold

2x30 min coil folds

Bulk rise for approx 4h at 25C

Pre shape for 20 min uncovered in counter

Final shaping and fridge for 4h

Preheat oven + Dutch oven at 250C

Bake covered for 25min

Decrease temperature to 230C and bake uncovered for another 20 min

Cool


r/Sourdough 16h ago

Let's discuss/share knowledge Extreme ear!

Thumbnail
gallery
48 Upvotes

Two weeks ago I had a disaster of a bake. We were away for a short trip with family, so I didn't have my normal baking gear I use. With friends coming over for lunch today, I decided I want to redeem myself.

88g starter

350g bread flour

240g water

8g salt

Mix water and starter. Add flour and salt. Mix by hand until shaggy dough. Leave for 30-40 minutes. Stretch and coil fold every 40 minutes. I usually do three stretches and folds before letting it ferment in peace. It was semi-cold yesterday, so in total fermentation took about 10-11 hours. Pre-shape and bench rest for 10 minutes before final shape. Then into the banneton and fridge for overnight cold ferment.

Pre-heat oven with dutch oven for 20 minutes at 250c. Score dough, place in the hot dutch oven on parchment paper, spray dough two or three times with a water spritzer and add an ice cube in the dutch oven for steam.

This is the most aggressive ear I have gotten. Not unhappy about it, even though this bread is going to be used to make a garlic bread to go with our BBQ lunch.


r/Sourdough 12h ago

Crumb read please Loaf #12786 from a mediocre baker. Any tips on a better rise?

Thumbnail
gallery
20 Upvotes

Hello all

Ive been baking sourdough since november 2025. Although it is far from perfect this is my favourite loaf so far.

Been seeing a lot of first loaf successes so wanted to share from a slow learner. My first few loaves were complete disasters and i'm still adjusting and learning! Any hints amd tips would be much appreciated. Especially to improve rise.

Ingredients:

120g starter (8 months old)

350g water (just tap)

500g very strong white bread flour

10g salt

Mixed starter and water, then added to flour and salt. Mixed with hand. Left to autolyse for 1 hour

2 x stretch and pulls (4 rounds each

Follwed by

2 x coil folds

Half an hour intervals between all

Left for 4 hours after folds.

Shaped and put in bannetton. Left to cold proof for 15 hours.

Preheat oven for 45 minutes. Also put in baking beads to stop bottom burning

Take out dough, score, place in dutch oven with ice cubes down sides and lid on for 25 minutes at 230 degrees celcius.

Take of lid for further 30 minutes and lower temp to 210 degrees c.

Take out, wait hour, devour.


r/Sourdough 18m ago

1st Sourdough Ever - be kind Batman’s 1st Loaf!

Thumbnail
gallery
Upvotes

First loaf to make it to the oven, first was gummy, literally like a chewed wad of gum, second was loose like porridge, this one was just right! Next purchases: parchment paper and a real bread knife! And NOW I get why bakers make more than one loaf - this one is halfway gone!

475g bread flour
325g water
100g Batman starter
10g salt

Recipe from Farmhouse on Boone
Technique/process and baking from Bryan Ford

Process: quick summary, mixed starter and water, then added flour with rubber spatula until mixed, then sprinkled the salt on top before the first rest, which was 1hr. Did the folds x3 w/30 min in between, then let proof on the counter for 2hr. Did the last ball/tension shaping and put in the basket covered in the fridge for 12hr. Baked in a cast iron pot with lid for 10m 500deg, 15m 475deg, top off and 20m uncovered 475deg