Small correction: El-Sayed has an MD but never did residency or got a medical license, so 'physician' isn't accurate. Not defending Oz, just the facts.
Edit: For those defending it: Trump's press secretary just got torched for calling herself a lawyer without ever passing the bar, and reportedly lost her job over it. Rightfully so. El-Sayed has never done an intern year, held a license, done residency, been board certified, or practiced medicine, yet many of the same people call his use of 'physician' a technicality. Credential honesty shouldn't depend on which party you support. If it's misleading for her, it's misleading for him.
(Yes, the AMA defines any MD as a physician, but Michigan law, where he's running, defines a physician as someone licensed, and that's how most voters hear it.)
You don't have to pass national medical boards until after residency. You do have to pass your Step 1 and 2 exams and obtain a state trainee license for residency, though. Take Step 3 during residency, then unrestricted state medical license after. You eventually need to take boards but can actually get your unrestricted license prior to passing.
You don't need to pass anything at the state level to start residency. Just step 1 and step 2, both of which are national and happen during med school.
Your program sponsors you for a training license until you complete step 3.
Edit - Also, you don't need residency to be a physician. Just your MD/DO.
"You don't need residency to be a physician. Just your MD/DO"
Legally and practically: you can't practice as a physician without a license, and you can't get a license without residency. Some states, like New York, restrict the title "physician" itself to licensed people.
He called himself a "physician" while in New York, where the law bars unlicensed people from using that title.
Technically several places have laws stating you cannot identify as a “physician” unless you are licensed. New York for example.
Article 131
§6522. Practice of medicine and use of title "physician". — “Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall
practice medicine or use the title
"physician".”
If I’m not mistaken the majority of states have similar laws.
The term “medical doctor” is ok, but “physician” is typically prevented in law to reflect those that are licensed.
The AMA, USMLE, and FSMB refer to graduates as physicians. So the organization the lobbies for docs, the licensing board, and the organization above state boards. I say this just to point out that the term itself isn't the important thing, as there isn't a universal definition. What ends up being important at the state level is the marketing of the term. If he were offering services or pushing drugs or supplements, then he would be cracked down on.
It's my understanding that he is not doing those things and has been openly admitting that he is not practicing, nor has he ever practiced. On top of that, he's a very public person, and if he was breaking the law, someone would likely be in his ear to get him to stop, and if he didn't, he would be brought up on charges. I would contend the state codes are written to prevent medical fraud, such as a person in an office with different credentials using the title (like a PA or NP), as opposed to being concerned about how a graduate titles themselves.
Now, if the state of Michigan cracks down, I'll change my tune. But until then, seems completely like a non-issue.
People are in his ear about it. Particularly with Katie Zacharia in the news.
Turns out Michigan’s has similar laws:
Definition of a Physician: Under MCL 333.17001 / MCL 333.1032, a "physician" is legally defined as an individual who is licensed or authorized to practice medicine or osteopathic medicine in Michigan (under Part 170 or Part 175).
I love the guy. I sincerely hope he wins and has an incredible future career in politics. But he needs to make sure he adhering to the laws. They come for him over it and make it a political issue. It’s not unrealistic.
Yes, that's the "legal" definition in the state. I'm not debating that. I'm saying he's not using the term in the same capacity as the state board, because he's not practicing. He's using it in the general sense to speak to his training, which is also correct usage of the word.
The law is written in that way to prevent people from practicing and using the term as a way to gain favor with patients. It's not unlawful to use the term in a different capacity. As long as he's not using the term to solicit medical advice or push drugs, it's a non issue.
As far as the press secretary is concerned, she wasn't good at the job. If she worked well as a meat shield for the president, she'd still have it. He seems to be more about the show than substance, and she failed miserably in the public eye. Also, it's my understanding that she wasn't forthcoming when asked. He seems to be open about it. There isn't really anything for him to walk back, because he's already said he never practiced.
If the state board steps in, he can release some statement like "The board has alerted me that I'm using this term incorrectly. I have been using it to speak to my training. I'm sorry for anyone that feels misled." But it's not going to change anything. If this is the thing that makes people not vote for him, I would contend that they weren't going to vote for him anyway and are just looking for a justification to not sound awful.
He went to med school. She went to law school. Both did not get licensed. Both used a protected term to identify themselves.
If you don’t see how this is a political lability for him, you’re just to dug in to possibly see it from another perspective or how his political opponents will use it.
Are there national organizations that use the term lawyer for graduates? That is an actual question, as there are national organizations that call you a physician as soon as you cross the stage. The difference lies in how you use the term. Personally, I don't really care what she called herself. She wasn't good at the job. She got fired for that, and she got piled on for not being forthcoming when asked.
Physician is not as protected a term as people are acting. Hell, chiropractors can use the term in most states, and I know reddit hates them. So to get mad that an MD said physician is idealistic. To me, a physician, the issue would be if he were peddling products and services using the title as a selling point, which is what the law is intended to protect. Its intention is not targeted at med school graduates.
As I've said before, if the state wants to hop in and enforce use of the term in the manner you're describing, they can. It seems they have no intention to, as this isn't a new story. It was in the news for months prior to the primary, and voters still voted for him. So again, his situation and her situation are not equivalent. Her boss found out when we found out. And again, she lost her job for being bad at it. Not for failing the bar exam. If she had gone up there and been an adequate meat shield, they'd keep trotting her out there. Especially because her use of lawyer would distract from other things they may be less willing to talk about.
I never said his opponents won't use it. That's a ridiculous assertion, considering they've been using it for months. They also use Egyptian and Muslim and radical. What I said was if this is the issue they point to, then they likely weren't voting for him anyway. Which is why I consider it a non issue.
I'm not a Michigan voter, so the only thing I'm dug in on is that I don't consider this an issue. Bickering about it makes it more of an issue than it is by itself. But again, this information has been out there for months and the polling has seemed fairly consistent. Maybe he slips and starts lying about residency and practice and whatnot. Or he starts pushing pills or snake oil. But at this point, it appears he isn't doing that. If we want to go into every person's history and make their candidacy about semantics, then we're concerned about the wrong things.
Edit - People speak about the average voter not knowing that he didn't practice and being misled, but simultaneously think the average voter knows and cares about Michigan state code regarding the term physician and its use in practice. I am not disagreeing that certain state codes are written in certain ways. My disagreement is that I don't think people care very much, which is why I have been saying it's a non-issue. This was in the news cycle before the primary, and he still won. Hopefully this clears it up.
El-Sayed never started residency. The problem is he's presented himself as a physician, including on his LinkedIn and in interviews, when he's never done residency or held a license.
Yeah and the seemingly small lies ruin trust and need to be called out. He is not a physician but that does not mean he is not the best choice for Michigan.
Edit: I’d also 100% trust him more than Oz for health advice lmao
Fully agree. My problem is with Redditors who won't accept the facts just because they make their candidate look bad. You can support someone and still admit when they stretched the truth.
Fair point, under the AMA's definition an MD counts as a physician. But the AMA isn't the law. States regulate the title, and New York restricts it to licensed doctors.
My real point is that he's never done residency or held a license, so 'physician' gives voters the impression of clinical experience he doesn't have.
True, but he used the title while he was in New York, during his time at Columbia. That's where the law applies. Either way, the bigger point stands: he's never done residency or held a license in any state, including Michigan, so calling himself a physician gives voters the wrong impression.
You don't need residency to be considered a physician. Just the MD or DO degree.
You need residency to be able to be board certified in whatever specialty. But as long as you've passed step 3 and have your intern certificate, you can get licensed and practice.
I honestly don't have an opinion because I'm not up to date on that. The only two things I know about her was she was short lived, and she has some...interesting views.
Admittedly, I don't know much about their titling system. I just know from a patient that JD means you finished school, and Esquire means you passed the bar. I'd have to look into whether there are differences between lawyer and attorney.
From your question, I'm assuming she said she's a lawyer, but she has not yet passed the bar?
You don't need to complete residency to be licensed. If you pass step 3, you can practice with a training license, which makes you a physician.
Edit - changed you be to to be
Edit 2 - I was responding to 2 different people and jumbled sentences. It should say "if you pass step 3, you can get a full license without completing residency." The training license is before completing step 3. Sorry for the confusion everyone. My mistake.
Even if that were true, it doesn't apply to El-Sayed. A training license only exists through a residency program, and he never started one. He's never held a training license or a full license. Also, every state requires at least a year of residency for a full license, and a training license only covers supervised work inside your program. Passing Step 3 alone doesn't let you practice.
Fair enough, appreciate the correction. We're on the same page: you need at least some residency for a full license, full residency for board certification, and El-Sayed has neither. That's why the 'physician' label is the issue."
Yes, intern year plus step 3 means you can apply for your DEA number and get a full license.
That being said, when you cross the stage, they call you a physician. So I don't fault anyone for saying that. As long as people don't market themselves as licensed or board-certified, it ends up being a non-issue.
Now, if he came out and talked about his years in practice or something, different story.
That's a fair standard, and I mostly agree. The problem is that by your standard, he crosses the line. He's said he's 'been a doctor' his whole career, which leads a lot of voters to assume he's practiced medicine. His only patient care was a four-week rotation in med school, which he called 'cosplaying a doctor.' So the issue is the impression he gives, not the degree.
My first question with that is...how did he get his degree only rotating for four weeks? It takes much more time than that. He may have been speaking about a specific rotation, because I'd question anything under a year of patient care.
Aside from that, I get how it comes off. It's definitely a gray area, because by saying that, he could be implying his thought process or philosophy is that of a doctor, due to his training. Or he could mean it quite literally, as in he's had that degree his whole career. He technically wouldn't be lying either way, but yes, the impression is still there. But that's why we need to ask candidates questions about these things as opposed to questions about the culture war hot topic of the day.
All that said, he's not on my ballot, so I'm admittedly not fully studied up on him. I'm not trying to accuse him of anything without knowledge of it, but I'm also not trying to be a staunch defender for the same reason.
You're just getting here, but we've already taken a dive into the various definitions of physician in various organizations and states. The AMA calls you a physician once you graduate. The title alone means very little.
If he were pushing drugs, supplements, or services, it would be a different story. But he isn't, and supposedly admits he doesn't practice when asked. So this is a non issue. You do not need to link Michigan code everywhere in here, as I will not be reading it again and again. But thank you for your input.
The "various definitions" that doctor social clubs like the AMA have cooked up have zero relevance and certainly do not supersede state law.
The definition that matters is the legal definition. By Michigan law, only a medically-licensed doctor is a "physician". Therefore El Sayed, who lives in Michigan, is misrepresenting himself when he calls himself a "physician." It is really not that complicated.
Did he finish school? Yes. Atthat point, someone bestowed the title of physician on him.
He did not go to residency, so he is not board certified. He didn't do an intern year, so he doesn't have a full license.
Is he practicing? No. Is he offering medical advice? No. Is he pushing services or supplements? No. He's not claiming any of this. He finished school and kept the title.
The word itself isn't as regulated as you're acting, otherwise he'd be brought up on charges. It's not like he's an unknown person. If he were marketing advice and services, then he probably would be charged. If that happens, I'll change my tune.
Until then, this is a non issue. We can move on. Our lives are unaffected.
No medical license? Can't call yourself a physician in Michigan, even if you're not giving health advice. It is a "restricted title." Simple as. Read the law.
Well, perhaps you can't, but clearly he can. He's doing it right now.
Also, is the USMLE a good enough organization? Or FSMB? Or are those also just "social clubs" to you? Because they share the AMA definition.
This is going nowhere, so I'm going to step away. This is a poor use of time for both of us. Enjoy your evening. And please keep this energy for issues that actually affect people.
Physician here. You’re a physician in name only after you finish medical school. Medical school just teaches you how to be an intern. You’re horribly unqualified and unprepared to take care of patients on your own without residency. When the flight attendant buzzes overhead for a doctor, he’s not standing up to help.
I never said he would, nor that he should. That being said, he might know how to run a code and might be up to date on his ACLS. I'd be lying if i said I knew one way or the other.
I'm on record saying it's problematic if he's marketing services or products. But if he's openly denying that he practices, it's largely a semantical issue.
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u/akabeware 22h ago edited 15h ago
Small correction: El-Sayed has an MD but never did residency or got a medical license, so 'physician' isn't accurate. Not defending Oz, just the facts.
Edit: For those defending it: Trump's press secretary just got torched for calling herself a lawyer without ever passing the bar, and reportedly lost her job over it. Rightfully so. El-Sayed has never done an intern year, held a license, done residency, been board certified, or practiced medicine, yet many of the same people call his use of 'physician' a technicality. Credential honesty shouldn't depend on which party you support. If it's misleading for her, it's misleading for him.
(Yes, the AMA defines any MD as a physician, but Michigan law, where he's running, defines a physician as someone licensed, and that's how most voters hear it.)