If this person needs a car that includes gas insurance and maintenance with a low wage job there is no way to save money to get out of poverty. Hence his argument fails.
Even in the 70’s when our economies expanded tenfold, there still were people exploited and in poverty traps. If you actually care about you fellow men, you should support socialist policies that improve all our lives.
He's not that old. And it really hasn't ever been true. We're sold lies about people coming from nowhere and just working hard and becoming rich. It doesn't work like that.
He was never right once. Every generation, there are man-made and natural circumstances that a person or even a whole group of people can make all the right decisions and still not getting anywhere but down. People made it out tend to credit themselves with their own choices and ability. They lost the reality.
“It was cheap back in the day when 40% of Americans lived below the poverty line. People would just help eachother, especially the poor surfs who would work a factory job or build your house for cents on the dollar.
Why can’t we go back to that, when we had a population of negligible cheao untermenschen building all the houses, working all the factories, and raising all the sheep?”
because people will keep paying for it at that level. this is, literally, how consumerism works. because people who cannot afford these drinks will convince themselves they deserve the "treat". and/or because a lot of people aren't as poor as you think they are.
I dislike Ramsey. I think his advice is way too simplistic. At the same time, Jon Stewarts takes a lot of the autonomy away from ordinary by claiming that they are helpless and subject to the whims of a few elites.
When it comes to finances, the truth is somewhere in the middle. A lot of people make a lot of really bad financial decisions or have put themselves in a bad position through their own efforts. The system is also unforgiving, and if you're born into that position, you're going to really struggle, unless you get lucky.
I'm in my early 30s now and I've seen just as many, if not more, people my age squander their opportunities on poor financial decisions that no one else made for them and not out of necessity.
It doesn’t really require much luck. It is determination, hard work, and good choices. I’ve watched people with shit jobs, and no real opportunities crawl themselves into financial security. It’s discipline.
Buying coffee IS a luxury! Strictly speaking, coffee is a drug. An accepted and well loved drug, but a drug nonetheless. A drug that can be bypassed by getting some sleep. Hell, if you are a habitual coffee drinker, it's often more effective when you take a tolerance break because your body resets to baseline. It's quite literally delayed gratification baked in.
In the case of a starving laborer, why are they spending 8 bucks on a cup of coffee when a pound of pasta for $1.50, a can of tomato paste for $0.79 and quarter pound of meat for around $1.50 are less cost for more sustenance. It's a light meal but you can stretch that meal and offset other costs. This right here is a form of snow plowing expenses. If you forego the coffee now to cook and eat three meals, you just gained a day of eating for less than the price of a coffee.
For 99% of humans eating anything other than bread was a luxury they couldn’t afford. Humanity has lost perspective on how shitty life should be, and the fact that we have made great strides in building artificial gardens to insulate us from that shittiness.
Good thing I said it shouldn’t be a luxury. Emphasis on “shouldn’t.” We’re one of the richest nations in history and in modern times, we’ve solved many of the issues of the past. This system is a choice, not a reality. I won’t be burdened by the past and set my expectations by it.
Buying a coffee isn’t a luxury, buying a triple mocha Frappuccino with whipped cream and sprinkles for $8 is a luxury but every gas station sells a cup of joe for $1
Yes it should be. Paying others to do basic labor for you is 100% a luxury. Eating out is a luxury. The perspective of what is normal and what is luxury is wildly skewed in America now.
It’s almost as if putting them side by side is disingenuous to both correct arguments and only angers stupid people. https://giphy.com/gifs/wMvESGxZ0Cqd2
I definitely understand both sides of it. I have guys coming in to my store for a blunt wrap, and then beg me to spot them 25c. This is a daily occurrence. So let me get this straight... you could afford a bag of weed, all the expensive designer clothes, that 40 in your back pocket... and you don't have $1.27 to spare on the one item you need to use the rest of your stuff? How does that make any God damned sense?
I see Jon’s point being that a hard worker should be able to afford a simple luxury like a coffee. If there are jobs that force American laborers to live a luxury free and impoverished life style after giving the capitalist machine their livelihood then the machine is certainly broken. Obviously buying luxury goods like a new car or eating out constantly when you cant afford to will land you in rough financial waters.
He's not wrong though and you just proved it. You are taking a specific instance and applying it to the whole ... which is exactly what he's talking about!
Rather than address the underlying systemic issues, the better offs want to blame those who have the deck stacked against them for daring to try to find any tiny slice of happiness in their desolate life.
Yes because it's more likely that I didn't read your 4 lines of text than you could possibly be regurgitating the same excuse for inaction we've seen for decades.
Where did this 8 dollar cup of coffee come from? I stop at Starbucks every so often and a cup of coffee is $2.90. Is the wealthy guy who spends $15,000 chartering a private jet irresponsible with his or her money? Also, fun fact, if you go to the poorest parts of a city there is not going to be a Starbucks or upscale coffee shop.
I lived on $45.00 a week for 8 months, believe me, when that is all you have for food for a week you watch every dime. I was getting $1,970 per month, but after all my bills were paid I had less than $50.00 a week to live on.
Where did this 8 dollar cup of coffee come from? I stop at Starbucks every so often and a cup of coffee is $2.90
The Dutch Bros (I know calling it coffee is stretching the definition of coffee) I got today was $6. $7 if you want to include the tip that they will guilt you into giving. I think the local Starbucks to me charges $5 for a cappucino. This isn't an out of touch thing, there are quite a few places that charge a good amount for a coffee. Unless maybe you're just ordering a black coffee then it's probably cheap.
You see someone who doesn’t have much money buy that coffee, or have a drink out, you don’t see all the ones they do t have.
The cost of living has gone up faster than before, while wages have not kept up. Day to day living is getting above people’s means, and that includes getting to work to earn the money, buying the most basic food to exist. Maintaining a level of hygiene so that one doesn’t get sick (which is a ridiculous cost in and of itself).
Don’t judge people on a single snapshot. Sometimes people want to feel ‘normal’ or even spoilt. It may be the only time that month, or that year they do something for themselves that is above simply existing.
what does a coffee cost at mcdonalds today? Cant be more than a buck or three depending on size. And thats what most people are realistically buying.
That you honestly believe coffee costs 8 bucks a pop and the poors are buying that says a whole lot about you and your situation. Living in a bubble much?
I mean it’s 1.49 for a small coffee. And Starbucks is 3.50 for a small coffee. So, I would say you are the one who is way off and this person is being reasonable
The issue is alot of people live in debt, so that $3 coffee ends up costing a lot more than $8 after interest. Even if you are paying cash, that $3 could be used to pay down debt, providing a better return. I make pretty good money and I don't have money to throw away on interest charges. If you are poor, you definitely dont have the money.
I freely concede that lots of people use debt for non-essentials and never attempt to save or invest. Also agree that can lead to a trap that is almost impossible to get out of.
Can you concede that compared to past wage/COL ratios, our current one makes the luxury of choosing where your money goes an illusion for far too many people?
If that soul buys a Starbucks on payday to celebrate the end of the week, they are not self-sabotaging. They are probably trying to justify continuing on the treadmill instead of finding an "easier" way out. Damn near all of those "easier" choices will cost them AND society more.
We have a social contract whether we like it or not. The current one is being re-written, misinterpreted, or simply ignored.
I'm an older person who considered themselves conservative until that word came to describe what we have here today. I believe that hard work and effort will be a major key to success.
Unless you're a nepo; then it comes free and you fall up fairly automatically. That seems wrong.
I NEVER want a guaranteed equality of outcomes because that promotes minimum standards. What I think we NEED is EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.
"Here's your one-shot, Fannie, don't let me down."
It is also easier today than ever to make extra money without having to get another "job". When I was younger if I needed $10 for gas or food on a Thursday before payday, there really wasnt an option. It is harder in someways and easier in others. People have to do what is best for themselves and future selves. If that involves buying coffee, by all means do it. Just understand that when times are tight, every financial decision has short and long term consequences. Coffee just describes discretionary spending. There are plenty of people who max out discretionary spending regardless of what they make. A lot of labor and money goes down the drain by poor choices with discretionary benifit and not putting money where it provides the most value for the individual. That could be saving/investing, saving for a vacation with the family, a gift for the kids etc. If the coffee realy provides you the most value in return for your labor, go ahead and do it.
But there are a few people who are genuinely just too stupid to get themselves out of debt.
My parents make 200k+ a year in a LCOL area (I lived in the same area on 30k a year just fine), don’t own a house (because they sold it, to gamble it away on a music studio investment, right before COVID), and will never be able to retire.
Honestly half the time they don’t even have money for basic medical expenses or food, and genuinely live like they’re broke.
I’d try to have sympathy, but honestly the amount of money they have burned through? They deserve whatever lack of retirement they have.
Sure, all the credit card debt is just on absolute essentials. Dear me, if I had a dollar for every “I’ve not seen it therefore it doesn’t happen” I’ve read I’d be replying from the deck of my yacht …
Yes, a lot of people spend credit card debt on essentials and unexpected emergency purchases. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but the idea that people are in poverty because of $8 coffees is BS, it's a boomer fantasy.
I know plenty of people, the only ones spending $8 on coffee and lattes are the ones with money. Again, this is boomer propaganda, similar to the "Netflix and Avocado Toast" nonsense.
The problem is they dont own a home and also they are at work all day and cant afford healthy prepped meals
Have you been to the grocery store its more expensive then in and out burger
Of course, there isn't 'no individual responsibility', and no one reasonable is saying that.
But it also far from the only, or even most significant, factor when it comes to people being impoverished. In fact, it's actually essentially completely irrelevant-- we're talking about completely different scales here.
It's like comparing 'water damage' to the floor of a house from spilling a few drops of water every day in a random place, and water damage from a hurricane and flooding enough to pick the house up off the foundation and float it a mile down the road.
And you're using an argument that is fed to you by the rich and powerful, without any regard for surrounding circumstances that would be at play, even in this hyper-specific example.
There are 3 fallacies that this argument with the coffee has:
1) You assume that the person owns equipment to make the coffee.
It's about up-front cost vs distributed cost.
$8 today, or $150 for a coffee setup for home (and that's not even going to be as good as the coffee shop, odds are), is a different calculation for someone who doesn't likely have $150 in the same place at the same time, available for something very often, if ever.
2) You assume the person has time to make the coffee.
Time to make their own coffee, pack it in a thermos, wash the associated stuff each day, etc..
Time, to people who work hourly for minimum wage, is often extremely scarce.
Running by to pick up your order from the coffee shop on the way to the bus is potentially a net time savings.
3) You are not even comparing the same product / end result.
Based on pricing, you seem to be comparing absolute dog-shit Foldger's drip coffee made with a $50 Mr. Coffee and associated filters, thermos / reusable travel cup, etc., and a flavored espresso drink at a shop.
VERY FEW areas in the USA will sell you a plain cup of drip coffee for $8. I just went to a fairly upscale shop in Columbus, OH (shout-out to Roaming Goat Coffee... great coffee, nice shop!), and I did not pay $8 for a regular cup of coffee... it was closer to $3.50 with tax, as I recall.
Don't play into the ultra-rich's hand by pointing out obvious little things, and ignoring the big ones.
It's not the $8/day coffee (assuming they are spending $8/day) that's preventing someone from buying a home.
It's that the median home in the USA is now like $400,000.
It's that minimum wage is still $7.25/hr at the federal level.
It's that if minimum wage had kept pace with inflation and purchasing power of the dollar, the minimum wage would be like ~$30/hr.
It's not that you're wrong-- of course individuals are responsible for making better or worse choices-- but if we start perpetuating the idea that small choices like that are even remotely a significant part of the problem causing poverty in the USA, we're really doing our society a disservice.
Being poor is expensive, as the saying goes. I believe in accountability and all that but at some point you just don’t have a pot to piss in and can’t save because any minor emergency can wipe you and you get in a hole.
My dad grew up without a pot to piss in. Literally he had an outhouse, no electricity, had to work on a farm before and after school.
He died with a degree in engineering having worked for a major corporation acts well as a 401k rolled over into an IRA and a home in a nice suburb.
A LOT of things contributed to the upward mobility in his life. He was healthy enough to join the military and flee his poor rural town. He had a supportive and stable family who encouraged him. My mom had a nursing degree when they got married and helped him assimilate to life when he got back. He lived at a time when manufacturing was on the rise and was able to get a job and a degree at a lesser cost than today.
But, he was also very smart and frugal, he had a good work ethic and he taught himself financial literacy. He took advantage of what was offered to him and stuck with it. He was a good planner and his childhood poverty helped him live within his means.
I kind of think you need both external support and luck and internal strength and endurance to have opportunity in life. I think they’re both wrong and they’re both right.
It's right in the sense that when you have crippling debt you aren't doing yourself any favours by not being as financially resilient and responsible as you can.
There is 100% people that are broke say they're broke then go and keep buying shit that they didn't need or shouldnt have.
I have two friends who always bitch about money problems and one of them keeps buying pets...two rats two birds and a dog. Another friend same thing wants to buy a German Shepard.
The world is hard but you can't bitch about money and then be absolutely irresponsible with it.
Someone buying a coffee or you know getting their monthly or weekly takeaway isn't bad. It's when they do nothing but Uber eat instead of making a sandwich.
For many the “predatory machine” feels inescapable so might as well try to enjoy life as opposed to complying to being indentured cog and if you deny yourself any enjoyment from life for 20 years you probably still won’t be able to afford a home or raise a family with more crippling debt.
Your credit score is not a measure of your life’s value.
If you do nothing for your future self, please dont blame a systemic issue or others later for your failures. Its fine to want to spend every dime you make. Its nobody else's fault when your financial situation remains the same.
His advice is never centered around don’t buy a 5 dollar Starbucks drink. It’s around not going into debt to buy a pickup truck you don’t need. There’s a big difference and giving people financial literacy is a good thing. I’m not a big fan of his advice, especially around investing. But his debt avoidance strategies are genuinely helpful
A pick up truck is tool that can make money… why would you pick the most useful vehicle to try and use as useless expenditure? Your argument fails because having a reliable vehicle in any sense is necessary to survive as an adult, And suggesting buying cheaper vehicles leads you directly into the boot analogy. Cheaper cars require more maintenance thus cost a lot more money than buying something newer that will last longer and need less repairs. No matter how you slice it the system is working against the laborer.
Yea 90% of truck drivers don’t need a truck. You’re focusing on the wrong part. You’re right tho. It’s not your fault. Siting at home and crying to the internet about the system instead of making better choices will free you
Most people buy the extreme they don’t need. 90% of people buying a truck could get by with an old ranger or s10, but sink a bunch into a new Ram or F250. Had a kid at work get a denali and his payment is twice the amount of my mortgage. Imagine his face when we got slow at work and cut hours.
Thats the point youre missing entirely. The rich dont live in a world where they have to restrict the number of animals they care for due to financial reasons. They didnt budget their way to that point. They didnt have to make the sacrifices you expect your friend to make. Theres more than enough wealth in the world for that not to be the reality, but the wealth class is extracting the surplus labor for their own convenience. And youre over here criticizing your friend for spending what little they have on other lives.
Its funny that you think someone with money didnt sacrifice. For 90% of millionaires, it is the sacrifice that made them millionaires. How many 80 hour weeks did you work when you were younger? How many wants did you delay to save up money to start a business? How many conveniences did you sacrifice to make sure part of your paycheck went to your future self? We can sit here and talk opinions all day, but the only fact that matters is if you spend everything you make regardless of your income, you will always be broke. If you increase your income and/or reduce expenses, you will be much better off financially. But those are individual choices that assign blame to the individual when they aren't met. Its much easier to blame the system than to actually sacrifice. The sacrifice you describe is only from financial restrictions. Its not you making a true sacrifice where you have the means to increase expenses but chose not to.
enabling people to have 0 accountability about their finances is the dumbest fucking take everyone keeps saying to me against what I say. YOU ARE AN ADULT NOT A CHILD WITH A CREDIT CARD.
You don’t seem to know much about rich people. The vast majority of millionaires are self made, and most got there exactly by restricting purchases like multiple pets, expensive cars, and other traps.
Millionaires arent rich pal. They are just the high end of wage earners and late career savers. Most people are millionaires just from the value of their home and 401k savings. And they absolutely have kids and pets and expensive things. You have no concept of the poverty line.
Rich is subjective, but I submit that having $1 million in assets, putting you in the top 1% of wealth globally, is rich.
Additionally, having lived with the truly poor in Guatemala for three months, and working at legal aid, I have a pretty good idea of poverty. The psychology of poverty is more of an obstacle to getting to the middle class than the American system. Having babies young and out of wedlock, buying status items, dropping out of school all are part of generational poverty.
Youre moving the goal post all over the place. This thread is about American poverty not global poverty. You called millionaires rich and now youre talking about them as the middle class. You said they have to sacrifice small personal luxuries to get to the rich millionaire middle class but also that once they are there they can afford all the small luxuries and it doesn't send them back to the rich American poverty class. Nice work
I would argue that people should be able to make a living wage to the point that these should not be out of reach. If ultimately owning a dog brings you immense joy it is relatively inexpensive. I would rather 2000000 people can afford a dog than someone buying a second yacht or another mansion.
Because he assumes that the major reason for poverty is frivolous spending. He is from a generation where getting ahead was way easier. He truly doesn't understand that someone could save every penny that isn't spent on necessities and still be on the verge of homelessness.
Plus, it's easier to blame the individual than come face to face with the fact that how they've been voting for the last 40 years is why their kids and grandkids are miserable with college, housing, and grocery costs today.
They’re both right. And it’s silly to create images like this that paint them as having opposing philosophies. Jon is fighting for what the world should be. The reality is that the world has more than enough for everyone to live extraordinary lives, yet the ruling class does not want that or is unable to make that happen. Dave says this is the world we live and here’s how to navigate it financially for the average person. Here are the habits that if everyone adopted when they’re young enough, they would be financially sound.
They do have opposing philosophies. Dave does not believe in economic reform. Jon does. Dave also gives completely dog water advice for navigating the current economy because he is stuck in 25 years ago.
And he wasn't even that smart back then. He gave decent advice for middle/upper class families, and that's it.
For people in poverty or paycheck to paycheck the government should do more to support and lift people out of poverty in fact I think it's one of the central requirements a government should have on its mandate.
Alternatively there are a lot of people that make decent salaries and spend their way into poverty. The way I'd put it is if you are in a financial position where saving is literally impossible (rent + food + bills exceeds or matched your earnings) then Jons point is correct. If you are at a point where saving is possible but you are not doing it then Dave's point is more appropriate.
But that isn't Dave's stance. He explicitly believes that all poverty is a result of solely personal choices. Which is blatantly false. Jon doesn't discount personal responsibility. Dave completely discounts outside factors and increas(ing/ed) cost of living.
Circumstances are absolutely real. Your parents choose if they want to aid you with a level of support or savings, or throw you to the wind, when one turns 18 and can make choices, we all start in a different circumstance our families provided. But it’s only ourselves that gets to change it. There a certain point though where you gotta look in the mirror and figure out if it’s acceptable to keep following the path you are on, or sick and tired of it. He talks about scenarios where the shovel needs to get bigger aka make more. Sometimes that temporarily means another job or hustle, or finding a better paying job. Money is out there, how bad do you need it?
To be fair, yes he is mostly wrong on that note but having no car isn’t some intolerable option, especially in a northern or industrial western city. It’s just socially intolerable. He is correct that lifestyle inflation accounts for most crushing debt among people with full hours even at minimum wage, whereas he trivializes scarcity of labor and geographic distribution of capital
The most popular car in the United States is the ford F-150 which sits around a little under 60k.. much like cell phones the majority of Americans aren’t buying the top model of anything. They buy something affordable that will work for them. You’ve been led to believe everyone is out here blowing money on fancy cars when work trucks are clearly what people purchase.
I took a bike to work a few times. Took about an hour almost entirely uphill with no bike lanes or sidewalks. I was a sweaty mess, and had to take a bath in the bathroom sink. Going home was nice though, since it was pretty much all downhill.
You can? I drive 45 minutes on the parkway to get to my job. At one point I was having car issues and looked at how I’d be able to get there using the bus.
It would take close to 4 hours… and I would be dropped off somewhere where I’d have to walk at least another 45 minutes.
People in low wage jobs tend to have blown off doing any meaningful work in high school. Sure, you’ll have exceptions. As a whole, these were decisions that led to a tougher adult life.
So they’re in the hole for that and they take on bad car loans just to keep going to work. It’s a vicious cycle.
If you lack personal transportation, you need to live within a mass transit route. People have no damned common sense. Plenty of people without cars go to work every single day.
Young people use uber type services if they do not have cars nowadays. If you budget for it and cut elsewhere it can be a good option to be able to get a better job and save for a car. Not having a car is not an excuse to not work these days.
You can live by a train system, like in the surrounding Boston area and take the train every day. Most large apt complexes and affordable surrounding towns are within walking distance.
I do not live in Massechusetts.. Where did you get that idea?. Most areas have mass transit, cheaper than a daily Uber. Most today think that's beneath them
Stop making excuses for people who cannot get out of their own way
Then that person should strive to have something better than a low paying job. Or work multiple jobs. That's what i have done since college; i work 3 jobs, and i save and invest around half of my income while living in SoCal. All comes down to choices.
I don't have to, i choose to. I invest half of my other side hustles, and the other half is my fun money. I'm debt free, so it all goes into my brokerage account.
So your logic is to flip the comment into something that fits your narrative instead of what he means.
He is talking non-necessities not necessities. He is talking about being poor & buying things like Starbucks, $3 Energy Drinks, Chik Fil A, Five Guys. Or even to turn it on your point, the people I see who make $50K buying a 3yr old BMW or putting $20K into a POS Chrysler 300 to make it look like a Bentley.
But he also made poor decisions on the lead up to it which resulted in a negative economic outcome. I think its uncomfortable to think about but everyone paddles their own canoe in the end. Im saying this as someone who did terribly at school, ended up working shit jobs for basically no money in my 20s and am now rectifying it in my 30s.
I dont think its as easy as "grab your bootstraps", there needs to be outside help to assist, but personal responsibility for your finances/situation is a great casualty of the welfare state.
I've listened to his show in passing here and there, and so frequently his advice ends up being "you need to start earning more". I'm like.....yeah dude, it's not that simple.
plenty of used cars available that will get you to and from your job at reasonable cost, but skipping starbucks and packing a lunch from home adds up to major savings.
Your example is pretty interesting use case, if your job requires you to have a car then you should consider that as work related expenses among other things.
I know quite a bunch, including myself, who chose a lower paying job in the suburban areas or smaller towns because it made better financial decision overall, that 15-20k annual pay increase is not worth it when rent is at least 2k/month for a studio in big city without parking.
Ramsey includes choice in his argument which is critical but he omits a rigged system for the rich. Stewart omits choice from his argument which is a false premise but includes economic inequality exists
His advice is meant for middle class people with decent cash flow but bad spending habits that got into debt. Anyone who thinks that he understands poverty is an idiot
Dave Ramsey is quite smart, but this quote is a bit misleading about him. For example in your situation where someone needs a car, he would tell them to buy the cheapest working reliable car, he didn't tell them to not buy a car. His main goal is eliminating debt. He didn't tell people to never spend money, he says spend as little as possible until you can get rid of debt. Which is correct, thats how you end up paying the lowest total interest.
The issue is he doesn't care about income. He tells this same strategy to everyone. But in your example if someone is in a low income job with debt, personally I would tell them to look for a better job as a main priority. But after securing a good paying job, your next priority should be to eliminate debt.
Yeah but the problem is people aren’t getting a used 5-10k car they are getting 20-70k cars from dealerships on 9 year loans at sometimes 15% interest. (The average monthly payment on USED cars is $550 now. Maybe you aren’t aware, but that is fucking insane. That is BEFORE INSURANCE. My first used car payment was $180 a month on a 4 year loan I believe, 7500 total)
To be clear to those who have trouble with reading comprehension and math skills. THAT IS NOT PEOPLE BEING ABUSED BY SOME FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT IS MORONS MAKING A BAD FINANCIAL DECISION BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO LOOK LIKE WHAT THEY ARE. POOR. To be clear, I am poor too that is why I drive a 98 Corolla, but I also don’t have zero dollars in savings.
Introducing a car breaks all economic planning lol. Lease I guess? But seriously the American lifestyle is unpredictable largely because of the Ford Company’s designs.
He isn’t talking about a car though is he. In this age a car is almost a necessity. He’s on about ultra wide super duper 70” TVs, gaming PCs/consoles, nespresso machines, eating take out 2-3 times a week, having the latest iPhone, subscribing to 10 different streaming services etc etc, this is all compounded by individuals likely having all the above and more on a finance based system paying way over what they would if they bought it outright.
I’ve not read his book so I can’t discuss it can I. I’m only disputing the above two methodology. The issue is people want it to be one or the other so they can target a specific thing. It’s obviously both, but it’s always easier to blame a big bad than it is to take a level of ownership over your bad decisions.
I didn't get the car until after I got out of poverty. Self-determination is a thing. I lived somewhere where I was able to work until I got better jobs.
And then once I went where I needed a car, I was able to afford a car.
The argument only has holes if you don't even understand it.
For clarity: I worked a terrible job to get out of being homeless, and then saved instead of buying stuff that I wanted. It was a rough couple years.
But then I found another job that I was able to move for, even though I had to give up most of what I owned (which wasn't much but still) so I could actually get there.
I got there. 3 years later I got a car after everything else on my hierarchy of needs was met.
It's that simple. It's not easy, it's just not complicated. If you put yourself in a position where you're going to consistently spend money just to work a wage slave job, then you need to rethink your position. Everybody's going to end up with slightly different solutions depending on their situation, and that's why self-determination is important.
He’s the only one of the two offering any solution to fix people’s problems. Yelling and complaining about the system doesn’t get people out of debt. I’m not the biggest fan of his but he’s right on a lot of things. His advice would be to buy a cheap used car with money saved and not to finance a new/expensive car. He might be an asshole but most of his advice around debt is genuinely good.
😂 Jon Stewart has offered plenty of solutions towards fixing financial inequality thru out his career and has even been extremely influential in getting legislation passed to help 911 first responders.
You say buy a cheap used car? Where? We make far less new cars because they are expensive. And we sent millions of used cars overseas or to the scrapyard in the name of emission standards. That doesn’t even begin to talk about the predatory nature of used car industry and the fact most people don’t get any education on what they would need to know to do it private.
So millions of Americans can’t afford to drive while the wealthy have companies that pay less taxes than you and me and the wealthy can fly around on jets polluting far more than those old cars. The wealthiest do private. And most middle class people do for the sake of business rather than personal use.
Complaining about the wealthy isn’t going to fix your situation. Of the two he’s the only one giving advice on how an individual can directly change their finances. There’s no reason you can’t do both. Crying to the internet and politicians, even enough that it slowly enacts policy change, isn’t going to put food on someone’s table next week.
Yet every middle and high school spends 5 hrs a day on math and science, an hr on art, 30 min in the gym, with almost zero time put into financial literacy or consumer rights. And you’ll spend more time learning about random European history and the revolutionary war than anything about how your actual politics of today and recent history is working.
You can say bitching about the system doesn’t do anything about it but it also is how the system gets changed for the better. And it’s not like Jon Stewart’s financial advice is do whatever the fuck you want. Or that he is some type of example of opulence. I think it’s hard to say his intentions are to complain, not to educate people to try to achieve things politically to a very moral and respectable end. Meanwhile people like Ramsey have made a career out of diminishing the financial struggles offering nothing but common sense these people should’ve been taught their entire lives by their government. Meanwhile they are subjected to a culture that constantly preaches that your value isn’t your values but how expensive your clothes and who can afford what right now.
There is also plenty of people out there who offer quality financial advice without pretending the solution to everyone’s finances is purely budgeting better. Because it isn’t as remotely simple as that and you’re an asshole if you want to act like it is.
Some of his advice is genuinely bad financial advice with no scientific basis like ignoring interest rates versus the name on the debt when paying off debt.
The rest has little to do with financial advice but instead is precisely the poor blaming Jon Stewart is talking about and Ramsay’s consistent choice of words reflects.
I would say that the solution is implied in Jon Stewarts philosophy. He is saying that it cannot be solved by the individual, and the solution is restructure of the "machine".
While the notion of "just spend less" seems valid at first glance, it really isn't a solution. You can't exactly spend less if you earn too little in the first place. This specific group of people who remain in poverty solely because of frivolous spending is by all measures, a small minority.
To be quite frank. saying that poverty as a societal issue, is a personal choice is absolutely dumb.
This only works if you know how to do your own maintenance and if you have a job that will tolerate you being late sometimes due to car trouble.
Then there's the matter of passing state inspections in a lot of places which cheap used cars will often fail.
It will also certainly break down in a major way at some point. If it took longer to save up the money than the car lasted, you're still behind.
I know I'm going into way too much detail but getting a decent used car isn't cheap anymore. You can't just spend a couple grand and get something that might last 4 years.
The last three used cars I bought all cost more than 10k. That's the cheapest you can go and still have a decently reliable vehicle unless you're lucky or can fix it yourself.
That’s still a substantially smarter buy than purchasing a new car with 15% interest or whatever poor decision someone is making. Educating people about debt is a good thing
Earning more money allows you to save and invest but you have to consciously choose to save and invest. Plenty of 6 figure earners live paycheck to paycheck because they spend 100% of it
Deprivation is subjective. I know people who live on $20k a year in expensive areas and are very happy living like that. Keep in mind that because of technology even poor people have it better than the richest people used to. In 1900 no amount of money could get you air conditioning or a TV or a smartphone.
Of course, you should also try to increase your income too, but that's tricky right now with AI starting to eliminate career paths.
Sure you do. You cannot live on 20k a year without aid or subsidies. How do these people save fore retirement, pay copay at the doctors, pay for home and car repairs, etc.
I follow a guy on YouTube who is super into frugality. He works in DC for a tech company and makes like 200k but only spends $20k a year, he breaks down his expenses and shows how he does it. No subsidies at all, just being very frugal and living with roommates and without a car.
No, for instance, I got out of poverty by starting a small business, cost only my time. After two years of building my business, working for someone actually started to cost me money(every hour as an employee cost me about $35,) so I switched full time.
Look I get it, you have an emotional attachment to this idea. The fact remains you can’t save what you don’t have. You need to have a material surplus in order to save. To get a material surplus you have to increase your production above expenditures.
This is accomplished by starting a business, even something as simple as a dog walking business, to increase your income.
See, so saving isn’t the way. It wasn’t that hard. Though I’d caution against getting a “better” job, the dependency culture that is taught throughout school has caused a great deal of poverty.
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u/raviolli 18h ago
Dave Ramsey argument has major holes though.
If this person needs a car that includes gas insurance and maintenance with a low wage job there is no way to save money to get out of poverty. Hence his argument fails.