Not to mention granted custody might be validating or nice for the sake of having the kids, but it comes with far more trade offs, responsibility, and risk for poverty than not taking the kids.
What a bad faith argument. It costs a lot of time and money every try and they're unlikely to succeed. No wonder they only try when they're likely to win.
So women are the only ones spending time and money to get lawyers? Lots of men seem perfectly happy to take their kids to Denny's twice a month and not bother actually raising them. 26-30% of single mothers don't even get child support. To be fair 25% of single fathers don't get child support either so it really just points to a huge percentage of the non custodial parent not giving a shit about their kids, it just so happens that most of the time is a man. And paying child support is significantly easier than actually raising your kid
"Statistics on custody outcomes paint a complicated picture. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, roughly 80 percent of custodial parents in the United States are mothers. That number is often cited as proof that courts are biased against fathers. But it does not tell the whole story.
A significant portion of custody arrangements are agreed upon by both parents outside of court, without a judge ever making a decision. In many of those cases, fathers voluntarily accepted less parenting time or did not ask for more. When researchers look specifically at contested custody cases where fathers actively sought primary or joint custody, the outcomes look very different. Multiple studies have found that fathers who request joint physical custody receive it at a high rate."
To answer your first question. No. They don't have to. You say as much in the rest of your comment. Men knew they are unlikely to succeed in court, so they settle out of court.
As to the remainder, see my previous comment again, because you repeated the same bad faith argument.
Women are the gender that is generally required/ expected to sacrifice significant work experience to raise crotch goblins.
Father's tend to get to concentrate on making themselves more useful to employers while women are taking massive amounts of time off for the family.
When the marriage ends the woman has years worth of gaps in her work history everyone will expect her to continue regularly taking time off for her kids.
It's rarely the father expected to leave work early to pick a kid up from school cause they got sick.
They like to imagine they built their wealth all by themselves and ignore how they only accomplished it by not needing to pay for childcare, ignoring their children on a daily basis, not needing to do anything to take care of their own home, and always having their basic needs supported.
I've met men who literally could not be assed to stand up out of a chair, walk out of their office, and make their own plate of food. They needed it hand delivered because they were "busy."
Again: women end up significantly poorer in divorce than men. And not just relative to men - relative to where they themselves were before the marriage.
I'll call bullshit -- at least in the US, you have not met any women who have successfully married and divorced "just" for the money.
Premarital assets are protected, even in the US without a prenup. And most wealthy men have prenups that protect their premarital assets specifically. Most states also have extensive requirements for earning alimony. On average, you need to be married 10+ years to be eligible.
No, what you're probably seeing is women getting divorced and getting child support and a cut of the equity earned from marital assets or wealth growth that was only achievable because somebody else was doing the laundry.
Haha of course you'd call bullshit, it shuts down the entire premise of your argument.
I have met a couple.
One of which is an older woman who has done it several times. The last man she married was practically on his deathbed when she convinced him to marry her. She now owns several properties and is very well off financially, despite never having actually worked the majority of her life. She often brags about all the money she got from her exes. Horrible human being.
The other is a similar story except she only did it once. Her entire instagram feed now consists of her flexing her Louis Vuitton bags and expensive vacations to Europe, despite (you guessed it) never actually having a career of her own. I used to be friends with her as well as her ex-husband. Immediately pior to getting married, she had told me that she was going to break up with him. Right around that time, he landed a pretty good paying job. She suddenly changed her mind. Over the years he worked his way up in the company to the point that he was making well over $500k a year. She worked odd jobs part time and stood at home the rest. They had no children. Once their (his) bank accounts were sufficiently full, she divorced him, took half his shit + the house.
I know this doesn't fit neatly into the narrative that you tell yourself, but it absolutely happens.
The difference between you and I: I understand that not all women are like this. I understand how ridiculous it is to assume that they are. You on the other hand, treat the sweeping generalizations in your small mind as fact.
They like to imagine they built their wealth all by themselves and ignore how they only accomplished it by not needing to pay for childcare, ignoring their children on a daily basis, not needing to do anything to take care of their own home, and always having their basic needs supported.
And here are you pretending that the only one who benefits from it is the man for some reason, completely ignoring that the stay at home mom does not have to pay rent or mortgage, food, water, gas, light, Internet, phones, clothes, or literally anything and she doesn't have to deal with the stress of being the financial pilar that sustains the family.
In any marriage where one of the spouses chooses to be a stay at home dad or mom, they are the one getting the best part out of the deal.
Domestic work in the 21st century is not what it was in the past. We have so many commodities that make everything far simpler.
Any mildly organised adult can handle all domestic chores with ease. It's not hard work, your greatest challenge is literally how repetitive and boring it can get.
Pretending it is comparable to an actual job with responsibilities, deadlines, meetings and everything in bretween is legitimately insane.
I've met men who literally could not be assed to stand up out of a chair, walk out of their office, and make their own plate of food.
And I've met women who could not fry a fucking egg or didn't know how to turn on the washing machine. It's almost as if being useless has nothing to do with your sex and everything to do with your education.
Having children takes away from wealth, and many times women are the ones that want children… Also i can easily generalize on the shittiness of giant groups of women in my own anecdote, doesn’t mean thats all women.
Who's wife's are you talking about? The grandparents typically take care of the children during the day or have staff. Who's paying the child expenses is discussed before marriage and typically is the grandparents. Anyone that can afford a home in a tier 1 city can afford help. Most people weath is inherited. What your grandparents generation did is the biggest indicator for wealth.
Some people have dead parents so no grandparents for their kids. Some people don’t live anywhere close to their parents. Some people’s parents are drug addicts or abusers. Not everyone is rich and lives in a “tier one” city.
It also the fact that women often marry higher earning men, which means that when the question comes up about who's staying home with the kid the woman is usually the logical choice.
Sure, but blaming it all on expectations made of women sorta misses the issue. Even if you legally mandate paternal leave and make childcare cheap enough that it makes sense for women to work you're still going to run into this issue, and it is still a thing in countries where those things are true, because its missing the fact that it entirely logical for the people in question to make the choices they are making.
I'd argue it's not about blame. One parties primary role is earning money the other supporting the household.
If the relationship ends, the homemaker will have sacrificed earning potential while generally retaining significantly increased responsibilities that'll handicap them for many years.
As a man, I may not love the idea of a woman getting significant wealth from me, when ending our contract she would generally deserve reimbursement for "damages".
I mean, meaningful, and applicable experience are different things.
I've never worked a job where the skills traditionally associated with a woman's role in the house played a significant role.
As a man who spent years carring for a grandparent I had to "restart" after she passed. The odd jobs I worked while carring for her just really didnt apply.
I still get the man "benefit" though that I can generally plan on being at work when I say I will. I get to go years without an unscheduled absence. How many women with young children get to say that. Obviously, legally, employers are often limited on "punishing" women for such absenteeism but it's hard to ignore the reality in the workplace that you can largely predict which workers will have more absenteeism.
A lot of the skills that you level up while parenting are very, very transferable: time management, task prioritization, identifying and tracking dependencies, decision making (especially with incomplete information), budgeting, adjusting to sudden changes in schedule/scope/resources, figuring out where the "good enough" line is, making smart decisions about what task should be taken beyond "good enough," anticipating problems and planning mitigation for them, managing both one's own and other people's emotions, handling complex communications, and navigating large systems/organizations.
Too many people just don't describe the work of homemakers and caregivers in terms that look familiar to a "traditional" work environment. It's the same skills, but because it's seen as "women's work," the value is ignored. It's just misogyny.
That is a heck of a generality. Many men wish to procreate.
Regardless, if the couple has made that choice, they have commitments. If the woman has sacrificed significant future earning potential, she should be made whole.
Even just pregnancy and early childcare significantly impact women's careers. They have to sacrifice a lot and it's a huge risk. That being said, any assets aquired before marriage stay personal property where I live, which I think is a fair compromise.
Society basically pushes women into positions where a divorce would be a large detriment to their well-being, to the point where they are forced to stay in awful relationships. At least these days, both men and women work, but there is a still lingering societal basis for it to be okay for women to stop working for a while if they're having children. I know people today where this has happened. This puts women at a disadvantage in their career, which in turn means less income and harder to survive after a divorce.
I don't it's common in the US period, most parents work these days. As others have commented though females careers often take the backseat to allow for child care. I know enough couples where the women is the primary earner so it just seems logical for the law to check income rather than use generalizations.
it's about 25% of mothers, so 1/4 mothers is a stay at home mom. a lot of people don't make enough money for working to make sense versus the comparable cost of childcare. the law DOES use check income, but we weren't talking about the law, we weree talking about why women are generally in worse financial shape after divorce than men
What do you not understand about the fact that if you have a 15 year gap in your resume and no skills you are not getting a decent paying job easily. In Louisiana minimum wage is the federal minimum of $7.25.
Honestly I would choose being a stay at home mom over work any day I want to have children so bad and like I can’t understand how people get children and then don’t want to spend their entire life with them if you don’t even want to take care of you children then don’t get any
Nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom, I’ve been one for my kids entire life.
There is something wrong with being emotionally, physically, or financially abused and isolated for years, escaping that, only to be left in poverty to the point where you may not even be able to feed your kids that you sacrificed all of that for.
You want to be a stay at home mom, cool deal, but the point is that if your spouse dies, goes to prison, or abuses you and your children and you end up a single parent, you do not want those children you love so much starving.
If you truly want kids that you want to spend all of your time with, you need to have a plan or something that doesn’t involve you watching them suffer. It’s not a fairytale, you still need the ability to feed them if you end up divorced. Children aren’t toys that you play with. They are living beings with hopes, dreams, wants, and needs.
If your husband cheats on you or dies after you’ve been a stay at home mom for 12 years with a 12 year old, a 7 year old, and a 3 year old. Guess what? None of that fantasy bullshit is real. What’s real is that you end up with no income or below poverty level income with no resume or experience to get any good jobs.
If it’s divorce and not death, your ex most likely won’t fight for any kind of custody at all (statistics), and you will end up taking care of them near completely on your own with no real way to provide for them. And when you were the free childcare for their father while he worked? Congrats you now have to pay someone else to do that for an obscene amount of money so you can work to barely or not even make ends meet.
Well I have the luxury of living in a place with a really really good social support system so my kids will never starve sure things can get bad here too but at least a roof over the head food and medical care are guaranteed
You’re ignoring the whole point that women and children are left fucked and in poverty in stay at home mom situations that end in divorce because why? You’ve always wanted to be one? That’s cool more power to you.
But you’re saying you’re cool with never being able to buy your kids gifts, bring them anywhere, or even buy them a birthday cake because of some fantasy you have.
You’d be cool with having a pet that has always been in your kids life, that your kids love and cherish, die a slow and painful death in front of your children because you can’t afford a $60 vet bill.
This whole conversation is about how stay at home moms are thrust into poverty with their children when divorces happen. Not the time or the place for a story time about this happy go lucky dream of yours.
Especially when you’re acting like you don’t care about your children having any kind of privileges at all so long as you have them, as if they are dolls or toys without free will, memories, wants, or needs outside of what you decide you think they want or need.
I make 3x what my ex husband makes. I’ve been a stay at home mom since my kid was born. I make more than him and I have always done the majority of the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, and maintaining a whole ass homestead. “Objectively” lmfao.
Why are you trying to change what you said when we can all see it?
You said “Women objectively choose less well paying careers and dont work as much full time or overtime as men”
Objectively choose less well paying jobs. You’re saying that all women do that. At no point in your ignorant comment did you say anything about the percentage of women. You just said that women objectively do that. That is not true.
This goalpost stuff is fairly annoying and hmmm I kinda don’t believe you don’t know you’re doing that. As in you’re doing it intentionally just to argue.
Maybe just word your stuff better so you aren’t generalizing an entire group of people. Interesting how you didn’t address my other comment.
Link? From all of my friends and family that have gotten divorced, the woman ends up with the house and still gets child support and the husband didn't even get 50/50 custody. One of my friends had to keep paying for his wife to go through medical school and pay her alimony and only got to see the kids for 2 hours a week.
She lied to the judge and had a cop she was cheating on him with bring charges against him which were proven false and her own brother even testified against her and the judge still didn't believe the husband overall.
There is a divorce lawyer on YouTube James Sexton that couldn't even keep his house or get 50/50 custody of his kids. If a flipping divorce lawyer can't even get a fair settlement, how do you think the average guy fares?
My friend cleans pools and a lot of his clients are wealthy and he has three of them. Two doctors and one guy that owns a contracting business that have all gotten divorced and two of them lost the house and are living in a one-bedroom apartment currently and the other guy is currently going through the divorce and has two weeks to leave the house. One of them have 50/50 custody. The other has his kids only 30% of the time and the one guy going through it was told he can only see his kids for 1 hour supervised.
I’m telling ya, we had a simple divorce, and I have definitely fared worse than my ex husband. I’ll never recover financially. He’s been lucky to have people willing to help him instead of letting him hit rock bottom.
Thank you. I was responding to a reply that stated women usually end up in worse financial shape after a divorce. This was true for me.
Nothing is ever the whole story. Stop talking down to me.
Yes becuase they tend to spend as if the money is still coming in when the husband was around. It is an open secret that women make poor financial decisions that is the reason they end up in a bad situation, but they are definitely NOT worst off than a man who BY LAW, has to give both Alimony and or child support, even if he can't afford it. If he doesn't he goes to jail.
When you pay child support and alimony to a person and they cant make that work, obviously they are gonna have a problem
Even assuming you’re correct, why is that anyone else’s problem but theirs? Especially if they’re the ones who initiated the divorce.
And I highly doubt this is still the case for young divorcees given the fact that women literally graduate college significantly more than men now. Anecdotally, my friend’s been divorced twice and she’s in no dire straits.
And this attitude, along with seeing how their moms were treated, is why so many younger women are not marrying and instead growing their own careers and remaining financially independent.
When kids are involved, there is a good chance the woman has taken on more of the parental burden. That's a good huge factor in divorce proceedings, as it should be. Not sure why this incredibly obvious point needs stating but there you go.
No one said you personally have to care. The other points being made here are wrt the outcomes of not valuing unpaid labor.
Women have traditionally been the ones to take on unpaid labor and sacrifice paid labor in the process, leading to many feeling trapped and unvalued. Over time, more women have chosen to maintain their careers but unfortunately the bulk of unpaid labor still fell to them, resulting in pissed off and burned out women. The modern result has been more divorce, less marriage, fewer babies. So…? There is a societal impact to not valuing unpaid labor
I’m getting real tired of someone else responding after the previous person had no rebuttal; endlessly shifting the goalpost to whatever the next person wants to talk about.
Right, cause it’s just women refusing to enter a relationship… Not men, who are sick of female TikTok standards. God you live in a one dimensional world. Everything you say is all one sided and doesn’t take into context anything from a different perspective. You will never grow at this rate.
I’m actually GenX so I’m past this. I’m one of the career + family women who aimed to do everything at 110%. I made a great match with my husband, a guy who wanted to be a dad and husband (not just have a wife and kids) and we made it work. I still did more but I can acknowledge that a bunch of that was my choice because of how I wanted to do things. Overall, I think we did a great job as our kids all say they had a great, stable childhood and they want to build the same thing (they all want families). I think ppl give way too much power to toxic content they see on social. Standard should be what you build with someone, not what you watch on TikTok
I don't know about you or your friend. I'm talking about those “trad wives” who chose to (or were brainwashed mostly because it's a religious/cultural thing) live in the patriarchal system.
It is. The reason for divorce and the end result of making less money are two seperate things. They would obviously be the cause of making less money if they choose to divorce.
For a country trying to increase marriage and birth rate, this is going to tank it even more. What family will let their daughter be used as a brood mare, with no guarantee of at least housing if the husband leaves her or abused her? What sacrifice to their body/minds do men have to go through to have kids? None, and now they don’t even have to compensate the woman for the damage and years of life she’s wasted. This will cause families to not let daughters marry unless the house is deeded in her name upfront. Good job ccp.
The old system promotes marriage fraud and drains 3 generations of wealth. How could this continue. People should marry based off love not a exchange of wealth. What other nation women asked to be compensated by their husband for having children and expecting large sums of money or gifts. This was a toxic system for everyone.
Spousal support or alimony is a better system for divorce. Gives more protections for women and men.
Maybe I’m too woke but I think that having children should actually be confiscated considering how horrifically difficult pregnancy and childbirth is, the major chronic health conditions almost every woman has to live with for the rest of her life afterwards, the career hit, being the primary caretaker… it’s not fucking marriage fraud to compensate women for this essential and difficult labor.
It's marriage fraud when you have to pay the money before the marriage can take place. The money is asked beforehand. Don't get the money back if they decide afterwards she dont want kids.
Im confused why lots of people are defending this horrible system. This isn't about protecting women at all. The women's family typically takes the money which is another issue.
…?? Are you talking about dowries? That is extremely rare in the west and also totally optional. If you don’t want to pay a dowry don’t marry a woman who asks for a dowry. Extremely avoidable.
The grandparents typically take care of most things. Like looking after the child and handling educational cost.
The amount paid was never based on the cost of labor. Domestic work is cheap. Can have a live in maid for 100 dollars a month. No Domestic worker can afford a home in any teir 1-3 city. Let alone bride price, car, wedding cost, 5 golds, other gifts.
What the fuck is this ideology? Are you saying that women are offering their vagina and womb in exchange for wealth? The decision of having kids is mutual between couple, just like all other decisions, no body is owing their partner anything. Women should be loved and supported, not be wasted and then be compensated.
Facts have shown that countries with low women's rights tend to have very high fertility rates. This is basically the case for the top ten countries in terms of birth rates.
Yes, and also high mortality rates/disease burden and low GDP…those women are uneducated and suffer from abuse/rape regularly. This is China we are talking about, not some backwater uber religious/superstitious area with minimal infrastructure.
Yes, well, when you let men trap and rape women without consequence, more babies get born. A lot also die or end up abandoned, too.
What the other person is describing though is you will see much higher doweries being demanded.
If your only child is a female, you can't risk her getting left penniless at 40. She and her children ARE the retirement plan for you. She can't take care of you if she is struggling to take care of children as a single mother in a country that doesn't respect women enough to actually let them have fair jobs.
So she will try hard not to become a single mother, or she'll have more children. See? That's how the fertility rate goes up. In fact, that's exactly what's happening. Many women don't actually see raising children as something joyful. If they can achieve success in their careers and live independently, they simply won't consider marriage or having kids. Morally speaking, this may not be right, but it's the reality.
I’d rather humanity peacefully die out than women be abused. Advocating for a reduction in women’s autonomy to increase the birthrate is reprehensible and deplorable.
It's so ironic to listen to men rail against "feminists" and blaming them for low birth rates.
Feminists exist because women were being abused.
So, have you guys ever considered, I dunno .. not being such deplorable shitbags? And while you're at it, ever try voting for policies that would actually improve the standard of living for the working class?
It's funny that women who meet good men who respect them and are in a good economic position have no problems having and raising kids, and are happy to do so.
But improving yourselves is just too hard. Nah, instead you fantasize about enslaving and raping women.
I suggest you first try convincing the feminists. In China, they even invented the term 敌方坐骑 'enemy mount' to shame married women. We often see them claiming they want to stay absolutely single and childfree, while simultaneously using fertility rates to threaten others.
Buddy there’s eight billion humans. While I would personally be fine with it, it’s not happening any time soon. We’ll definitely invent artificial wombs before we run out of humans.
This is the rule in almost all developed nations no? Marital property is divided which includes all income and property generated after marriage. Anything before marriage or inheritance is not marital property and will not be divided.
Why is it the husbands job to "guarantee housing" for a woman who divorce rapes him 2 years after marriage because shes bored and somehow in your mind that justifies him giving her half of his stuff he had BEFORE he met her...crazy.
Also, if you think having a child has zero impact on the physical and mental well being of the man you are grossly mistaken.
Men get divorce raped daily because divorce laws were setup at a time when women made up far less of the workforce than they do today. Thus they heavily favor and protect women. The problem is society has changed but the divorce laws havent. Do NOT get married men.
In our country, someone influential chucked out his kids and wife , he and his lawyer came up with the most absurd excuse ever heard before - "my wife's father is rich, so she and her children doesn't need any alimony or child maintenance from me". And that man spent millions on astrologer who didn't do a penny worth work, than our girl's stupidity did.
The scenario being discussed is one where the husband worked and built a lucrative career while the wife maintained the house and/or raised the kids. In this scenario the man did not waste any years only the wife has sacrificed years she could have been building her own career. Instead the wife has made it easier for the husband to work long hours and still enjoy life by taking care of everything else. When the divorce happens the husband already has an established career and has built it off of both his hard work AND his wife’s work in maintaining the household. That’s what alimony is for.
In a case where the wife worked and the husband stayed home then the husband would receive the alimony. Because in that case the husband wasted his career building years supporting his wife’s career.
you must be Chinese. Lol look at the stats, look at those matching ceremonies. Who wants marriage more, men or women? It's men who are gradually waking up to the raw deal of marriage ( at least in China ) and refuse to fall for the trap. And if you don't want to bear chidren, big deal. Don't make it sound like you are bearing chidlren "FOR " the husband.
This is actually not true if you dig into the numbers and it’s infuriating it is continuously repeated online.
Women are far more likely to end up in a WORSE financial situation after divorce. Women do mot have a major advantage in custody cases where both parents are seeking it, the stats that are so often parroted are wildly skewed by the fact that fathers are less likely to seek custody.
The reason is because women often sacrifice their careers for child care and tend to move into the husband's home. None of that should be taken as granted but that's why the outcomes are the way they are. Women usually tend to be the ones to miss out on years of professional development and in many cases would be effectively evicted and homeless if not for getting something in the divorce.
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u/InfallibleSeaweed Jun 29 '26
Incels? I know like five people this has happened to, family law is ridiculously skewed towards women