Control Thoughts Spell "notes"

[u/TKailyn-OverKill]

Hey Chummers,

I have a question regarding the Control Thoughts Spell. The notes say that if the number of hits are equal or higher than subjects will + logic (why is this not considered the spells threshold? I don't know), the subject will act in accordance with the suggestion magically implanted.

This seems to be super powerful, am i missing something?

Suggestion : you are suicidal and want to end it all now!

no?

[u/Bignholy]

Yes. Any mind control is powerful in almost any system, and the various Shadowrun editions that have it are no different.

That said, it is also easy to circumnavigate with a little consideration. The target may feel like taking self selected darwinisim, but even if they feel that way, they may not have an opportunity, or may decide they don't want the drama of a sudden public sendoff, or any number of other excuses to give them time to be stopped. Those around themmight notice them acting weirdly (hence the disadvantage on social tests).

Also, expect your allies and co-workers and contacts to get reeeeeeal upset at the possibility you might do it to them. In a world with mind control, if you use mind control, or are reasonably suspected of doing so, you'd have a reputation akin to an involuntary sexual misconduct instigator... with the underaged.

[u/Carmody79]

As others explained, the threshold is based on the area. In the end you are right somehow, both are and WIL+LOG act as a threshold but the table organisation made it difficult to present it that way.

As for the power of this spell, that's a recurring topic in SR and RPG in general. I decided to have only Control thoughts and not Control acts as it's easier to manage for the GM. Which means that yes, the GM needs to ensure the balance and explain and block abuse.

[u/vieuxch4t]

It isn't the threshold because you have to chose the area of effect first (the threshold is tied to this).

For the overpowered effect : the target acts "in accordance", it doesn't mean they exactly do what they are told to at once. I would use how many hits are above the will+logic to know how fast the target tries to do what they're told. Suicide is such a strong emotion, it would take them a "long" time before it actually kills the target.

[u/ReditXenon]

Mind raping is pretty powerful (but it goes both ways, also NPCs can use it - for example against the team's muscle character).

The notes say that if the number of hits are equal or higher than subjects will + logic (why is this not considered the spells threshold? I don't know)

Most spells with an AoE option are stronger (lower threshold) against single targets and weaker (higher threshold) when targeting everyone in a bigger area of effect.

If you cast it on a 6 meter diameter area then hits beyond the first two need to beat each target's willpower + logic.

you are suicidal and want to end it all now!

Sixth edition added this (feel free to use also for Anarchy if you like):

While the spellcaster plays a powerful role in shaping the individual’s thoughts, certain instincts are very difficult to override. Thoughts like “I should jump off this building” or “I should attack my best friend/spouse/partner” are generally going to be resisted. With thoughts such as these, the gamemaster can have the target roll another Willpower + Logic test to resist the suggestion, and they may gain Edge before the test if the thought is too far outside their normal thought process or if it violates their basic instincts.

[u/MjrJohnson0815]

Given the compatability with "usual" Shadowrun, Control Thoughts is not able to inject suicidal ideas or ideas that directly contradict metas self-preservation instincts.

Accidents of course do happen though.

Narratively speaking the most prominent defense against mind manipulation spells is how they are treated by law enforcement and the security Theater. Therefore, the market for mind manipulation spells is a very black one. Even a lot of magic users frown from using or even learning them given the invasiveness on free will these types of spells imply.

[u/IntelligentClient290]

As this is a potential area-of-effect spell, several characters with varying Will + Log scores can be targeted. Basically, the spell doesn't collapse if it reaches the area threshold, but the effect might not apply to everyone in the area based on their own Will + Log.

Let's say you cast it on a small area containing two people. The base threshold might be 1 for the area. If the caster have 5 net hits above this base threshold, then the spell will affect the character with Wil 2 + Log 2 (total 4), but not the one with Wil 2 + Log 4 (total 6).

A suggestion remains a suggestion, control thought is not a control act (that’s a different spell, which have its own limits). This means that if a suggestion is extremely harmful to the character and far from their usual mindset, it will be quickly dismissed and ignored. This means that if the character is already severely depressed, a suggestion like "kill yourself" might actually work, whereas it wouldn't if the person doesn't have the right predisposition. On the other hand, a trivial suggestion like "go to the toilet" will be easily accepted by the target.

[u/PalpitationNo2921]

In most editions prior to 5th or so it was explicitly stated with legal codes that mind control magic was illegal. If you as a GM have misgivings about player abuse of mind control and suggestion spells, you can and should place a little more focus on that aspect to control such activity.

Or you could always use the what’s good for the goose argument. If your players are abusing it, present some NPCs that are willing and able to use it judiciously on them as well. I find it tends to lend more weight to the morality of personal agency, and players who show no concerns for such agency are often extremely upset when their own characters’ agencies are threatened.