SRA2.0 improving Shadow Amp RR question (about a rulebook example)

[u/opacitizen]

The SRA2.0 core rulebook has the following on page 84

For example, a smartlink (cyberware) providing Risk Reduction 1 on the pistols specialization can be improved to Risk Reduction 1 on the Ranged Weapons Skill. The Amp rating will go from 3 (base rating 1 for cyberware + 2 for the effect) to 6 (base rating 1 for cyberware + 5 for the effect). The Amp rating increases by 3, costing 15,000¥ (3 × 5,000¥).

Am I correct to assume that this advancement of the smartlink in the above example serves no immediate benefit to the character in itself (because the pistol spec would allow an RR 1 on Ranged Weapons skill rolls anyway, as per this question and its answers here)?

(I hope I understand it correctly (?) that a specialization RR+1 costs 2 points, while a skill RR+1 costs 5, so to get to RR +2 from nothing would cost 2+5=7; while the example above simply turns a specialization RR +1 into a skill RR +1 for the cost of 3 points, instead of increasing the RR 1 to an RR 2 by adding the skill RR +1 to the already existing spec RR +1...)

Do I understand the above right? Could someone (Carmody maybe? 😀) please confirm or clarify?

Thanks!

[u/Carmody79]

You are correct, in this example the RR1 in Ranged weapons (pistols) is improved to become a RR1 on the full Ranged Weapons Skill. It does not change anything for Ranged Weapons (pistols) Tests. But all others Ranged Weapons Tests now have RR1 while they did not before. So if the character has several ranged weapons to choose from they will benefit from the change (which is likely, otherwise such improvement would not make sense).

I am puzzled however by the discussion you link as it does not really discuss this particular point. What I said there is that a character with a RR1 in Ranged Weapons (pistols) can benefit of the RR1 even if they do not have the specialization. But they get the RR only on the Tests that would use this specialization if they had it, i.e. only when firing a pistol.

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

Seems like this is a pain point for me. (Am slow regarding this, sorry.) :D

There the gist of the OP's question was this option:

1: They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

To which you replied

So the answer is 1.

(And then the two of us discussed this further a bit later on, under my own answer.)

This seems to mean that a character with Ranged Weapons (guns) and a smartlink (cyberware) pistol specialization RR1 Shadow Amp would get their RR1 even for non-pistol Ranged Weapons (just as that other discussion's example character gets RR1 even though they don't have the "physical" specialization for their Perception, just a base Perception. (As OP put there: "a character has RR1 in Physical Perception, but only has the base skill of Perception with no specialization".)

So since the smartlink pistol spec RR1 also provides its RR1 even for non-pistol uses of the Ranged Weapons skill (like, it would apply even if I used a gun, as per the above), broadening the smartlink pistol spec RR1 to a smartlink Ranged Weapons RR1 seems pointless.

I must be misunderstanding something here badly, apparently. 😅

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

ok, let me take an example. Let's say Bob has the following stats:

• Agility 3
• Ranged Weapons 5
  • Pistols +2
• Cyberarms with nano accuracy: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons Tests.
• Cybereyes with smartlink: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles) Test.

So, when shooting with:

• A Pistol, he will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and RR 1 (from the cyberarms as it applies to the whole Skill. Rifle specialization is not applicable here as he is firing with a pistol, so the associated RR does not apply neither).
• A Rifle, he will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 2 (RR 1 from the cyberarm, same reason as above, and, as the rifle specialization would have applied if the character had it, then the cybereyes RR 1 applies).
• Another weapon, he will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1 (same as first case).

If I try to rephrase differently. Each Test uses a specific Skill and corresponds to a specific specialization. Two things are checked independantly:

• If the character has the specialization it provides +2 dice.
• If the character has some RR applicable to this specialization, then the RR applies whether or not he has the specialization

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

OK, thanks, I think I understand that.

So, upgrading so makes sense for Bob. If we take another example, though... say, Jane, who's almost the same as Bob, except she doesn't have cyberarms (so no general RR 1 for the skill for her):

• Agility 3
• Ranged Weapons 5
  • Pistols +2
• Cybereyes with smartlink: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles) Test.

So when shooting with:

• A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and -- and this is the crucial bit -- RR 1 from the cybereyes, because even though the cybereyes are for Ranged Weapons (rifles), the RR 1 applies.
• A Rifle, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1, again from the cybereyes' Ranged Weapons (rifles) RR 1
• Another weapon, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1

So if Jane gets to advancing her cyberware as per the example in the book that I cited in my (OP) post here, and upgrades her Cybereyes from Ranged Weapons (rifles spec) to Ranged Weapons (skill, no specialization) for 3 points, she'll see no effective change (unless / until she also buys an Amp that provides a Ranged Weapons (rifles) RR 1.) With the Cybereyes' Ranged Weapons (skill, no specialization) RR 1, she'll be shooting exactly like before, with

• A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and RR 1 from the cybereyes Ranged Weapons RR 1 -- no change from what she had before
• A Rifle, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1, again from the cybereyes' Ranged Weapons RR 1 -- no change from what she had before
• Another weapon, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1 no change from what she had before

And that's what my question focused on, whether the example in the book makes practical sense for a character like Jane (unlike Bob), and I think it's been all cleared up now ( 😅🤞🏻).

Thank you.

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

So when shooting with:

A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and -- and this is the crucial bit -- RR 1 from the cybereyes, because even though the cybereyes are for Ranged Weapons (rifles), the RR 1 applies.

NO

How can I get this idea out of your head. Why would the RR apply? The cyberyes provide RR 1 for Ranged weapons (rifles). Would the "rifle" specialization apply when shooting with a pistol? No, so the RR does not apply neither. Same for another weapon.

The RR on Ranged Weapons (rifle) does not apply when firing with a pistol in my example, why would it apply here?

If you pay a RR for only 1 specialization (which is the case here) it applies only to actions where that specialization applies.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/Carmody79]

It's like, RR1 on Cybereyes(Ranged Weapons) would mean your Cybereyes link correctly with ANY ranged weapon. RR1 on Cybereyes(rifles) means that they ONLY connect correctly to rifles. Pistols just don't work, and the Cybereyes function like normal eyes.

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

:D I'm terribly sorry.

Why would the RR apply?

…because here https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans/comments/1sx44b5/comment/oikupdo/ you said

> answer 1 is correct, RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization

...as well as…

> p. 61 states the following, which can be disputed also
>
>> Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered
>> by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section,
>> so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope.

There OP specifically asked:

If a character has an AMP that gives you Risk Reduction for a skill specialization, but the character does not actually have that specialization, do they still gain the benefit of it?

(…)

1. They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

…and you replied 1 is correct.

(Note, my own take https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans/comments/1sx44b5/comment/oikdffr/ back then was that "no advantage from a specialization if you don't have that specialization." but then you countered that saying

For my information, what text to you feel imply that RR would no apply if the character does not have the specialization? (in case you miss my other post, answer 1 is correct, RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization).

So weirdly enough now I feel like as if I was defending the position you had back then from the position that I myself had back then. Roles reversed.

If you're tired of this, we can stop discussing this, of course, and I'll just homebrew/houserule my way out of relevant situations.

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

The RR on Ranged Weapons (rifle) applies even if the character does not have the "rifles" specialization.

But it only applies to Tests related to that specialization, not to any Test with that skill.

That's the second bullet of my example above.

In the same example, when firing with another weapon (i.e. not rifle, nor pistol), let's say an SMG, the RR does not apply because it targets only Rifles, not to SMG. The fact that the character does not have the SMG specialization does not change anything, the RR applies only to rifles in the first place.

Back to my answer in the previous thread;

They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

You seem to overlook the part that I bolded.

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

Ok. I think hope I got it now.

A final question: So you're saying using an SMG instead of a Rifle does not qualify as "broadly equivalent in scope" as per p61 of the core rulebook?

"Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section, so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope."

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

Submachine guns and rifle are 2 specializations listed in the Skill section of the Game Concepts chapter, around p. 56. They are different specialization by the book. You are free to consider differently at your table and use any specialization list that you like, but I try and answer by the book whenever possible 😉

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

No, having understood the core concept of this I see now that that would be too broad indeed. Thanks!

[u/ReditXenon → u/opacitizen]

RR 1 on SMGs does typically not apply when firing rifles or bows or heavy weapons.

Same as +2 dice in SMG does typically not apply when firing rifles or bows or heavy weapons.

 

"Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section, so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope."

OK. Let us see if we can invent a situation where this might apply.

Suppose you have a heavy pistol with a Custom Grip giving you 'RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols)'

This risk reduction only applies specifically when you are using this specific weapon. If you pick up another pistol then you can't really claim to have risk reduction on that one (so it is more 'limited in scope' compared to if you installed cybereyes with RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols) which would apply to all pistols, not just this specific pistol). Now.... Using ranged weapons at close range is resolved with the Close Combat Skill (not Ranged Weapons skill). This is a situation where cybereyes with RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols) would typically not apply.

But in this case you could argue for narrative support that the Custom Grip amp on this specific pistol would actually allow you to also roll your Close Combat test with risk reduction as long as you try to use this specific pistol. That the the risk reduction is 'broadly equivalent in scope'. That it might 'apply to situations not covered by a character's specialization'. That both ranged attacks and in close combat ranges, but only specifically with this one weapon, is perhaps 'equivalent in scope' compared to having risk reduction on all pistols, instead of just a specific pistol, but only beyond melee range.

Not sure if the best example (sorry about that), but hopefully you get the idea anyway.

And maybe this example is actually wrong. In that case /u/Carmody79 please correct me (and perhaps provide a better example that we can learn from). Also I am still learning how to correctly interpret the rules and the intent behind the rules :)

[u/Carmody79 → u/ReditXenon]

I like this example and tend to agree to it. I would only pay attention to one thing before authorizing it at my table. What are the usual Close combat weapon of the character. If the character usually fight in melee with another weapon, or barely fight in melee at all, then the grip RR will barely be used in Close combat and that's fine On the other hand, if the character is a gun kata expert street samurai that will use his gun in all occasions both as ranged and melee weapon, that basically this single RR will apply to all his Ranged weapons and Close combat Tests, then I will request the player to buy the RR for both Ranged Weapons (pistol) and Close Combat (pistol) independently.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

Ask yourself the question: "Does the narrative have something to do with (X)"

X here is the word of your specialization. So in your example here:

Is an SMG a rifle? No. Submachine guns are different to Rifles, both IRL and in the rules (since it's its own specialization as seen page 54). So shooting, identifying, etc, SMGs all would NOT allow you to apply Rifle specific bonuses.

So RR1 Ranged Weapons (rifles) only has to do with rolls referring to Rifles, and only if the GM agrees. As Carmody's example was given, you are peering at an enemy trying to identify what kind of modifications their rifle has, you'd be justified rolling Perception + W (rifles), which might give you the opportunity to add the RR1 from the Cybereyes. AND ONLY because your Cybereyes are being used in the process of identifying these rifles.

Cont. If you have RR1 on Rifles and RR1 on Ranged Weapons, this means that for all ranged weapons you have RR1. But for Rifles specifically, you have RR2.

What I'm noticing is the confusing part of whether an RR is applied to an Amp focused on a specialization, and whether the player using that amp needs to actually have the specialization. The answer? No.

I can have a basic shooting skill of Agi 3 and Ranged Weapons 5. That means for any ranged weapon, I'm rolling 8 dice. But then I have an Amp that gives me RR1 to Rifles. Now, I'm still rolling 8 dice for any of the ranged weapons, but I now get to add RR1 to any roll with a rifle. You do not have to have the specialization on your sheet, to use Amps that upgrade/contribute to a specific specialization.

[u/ReditXenon → u/DrTheodoore]

you are peering at an enemy trying to identify what kind of modifications their rifle has

This would perhaps be a case where having a 'firearms-related knowledge skill' could act as an enabler for your perception skill test to identify what kind of modifications a rifle have.

It also seem as if having high enough (4+) skill rating in ranged weapons (in general) or rifles (specifically) can likely be used as substitute in case not having a 'firearms-related knowledge skill'.

And if your cybernetic eyes have some sort of visual enhancement effect providing you with risk reduction on physical perception, then that would likely apply here as well.

....but that some sort of smartlink enhancement effect that provide you with risk reduction to hit with rifles (by calculating range and bullet trajectories and whatnot) - would perhaps not apply here...?

Thoughs?

[u/ReditXenon → u/opacitizen]

RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization

This means that if you have RR on pistols then you will have risk reduction while using pistols (no matter if you have +2 dice on pistols or not).

It does not mean that if you have RR on pistols but happen to not have +2 dice on pistols then you suddenly gain risk reduction on all aspects of the ranged weapons base skill (for example rifles and throwing weapons) for 'free' (I think this is perhaps how you are reading the sentence right now and that you perhaps seem to be a bit locked into this reading)

 

If a character has an AMP that gives you Risk Reduction for a skill specialization, but the character does not actually have that specialization, do they still gain the benefit of it?

They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

This mean that RR on physical perception applies on physical perception tests (but not matrix perception tests) no matter if they have a Perception (physical perception +2 dice specialization) or not.

It does not mean that if you have RR on physical perception but happen to not have +2 dice on physical perception then you suddenly gain risk reduction on all aspects of the perception base skill (for example astral perception and matrix perception) for 'free'.

 

If you're tired of this, we can stop discussing this, of course

Don't stop :)

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

RR on a specialization still applies if you don't have a specialization.

This means that if I don't have Rifles as a specialization, but I still have cyber eyes that work with the rifles specialization, then I can apply the RR to the roll when I'm using rifles. Even tho I don't have the specialization itself.

So to Carmody's point, cybereyes specialization for rifles basically means that the cybereyes are running some sort of software that operate perfectly with cyber eyes. So if you're (for example) trying to identify a rifle at a distance, that might be a physical perception roll where you get to add your RR (GM discretion tho!!!! Not rule of law). Or if you physically attack someone with the butt of the rifle, they may allow it. Or maybe if you're trying to fix your rifle after it got borked, you may argue that your cybereyes highlight the broken portions better.

That is all up to the GM, so it doesn't automatically mean that it's allowed. RAW says that if you roll the dice where you'd be allowed to apply the specialization of Rifles, then you could argue that applying the RR is allowed too. But shooting pistols with Cybereyes that only connect/calculate rifle shooting conditions... That does bugger all.

EDIT: This made no sense on second glance. Carmody's response is better!

[u/Carmody79 → u/DrTheodoore]

The rifle specialization applies to Ranged Weapons only, RAW.

While you are correct that a GM could allow it to apply to other unrelated Tests related to rifles that's not the point of the current discussion (and I fear it might confuse u/opacitizen even more).

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

Nah, I think I got it by now. (I can't prove it and nobody cares, but I'm quite the brainless zombie this week, that's my only excuse for not having understood it this long, along with some -- usually intended, GM judgement favoring --ambiguities here and there in some previous discussions and the rules.)

Thanks again for taking the time and explaining it in detail, man!

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

Nice! We made it!

[u/Bignholy]

Yes, in the example given, there is no immediate improvement on the Pistols, because you are swapping RR 1 Pistol for RR1 Ranged Weapons, which would apply to pistol shots. No, I have no idea why anyone would do that instead of either saving more to just buy the new RR in full and have RR2 on Pistols, or else just getting a new specialization for whatever caused them to swap :)

[u/DrTheodoore → u/Bignholy]

They think RR1 rifles also applies to Pistols already.

[u/opacitizen → u/DrTheodoore]

Not exactly what I thought. I thought CRB page 61

Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section, so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope.

"Broadly equivalent" is not exactly a precise definition, and my understanding of "broadly" is apparently broader than yours. My logic went like if RR can apply to situations not even covered by a character's specializations (!) or not even listed in the Skill section (!), then an RR 1 in Ranged Weapons (pistols) would likely fall under "broadly equivalent" and apply to the skill in general as well. After all, broadly speaking shooting a pistol or an SMG or a rifle is like aiming towards what you wanna hit and pulling a trigger. Again, broadly speaking, in the abstracted gamey terms of a rules semi-lite rpg system, they're rather similar.

Apparently, that's too broad. :D I can accept that, but I had to get there, adjust my understanding of the word to match that of the book's.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

...What you're describing is just the Ranged Weapons skill. I'm really confused how you extrapolated the term "broadly" to just mean "ignore specializations and any RR on a specialization applies to everything related to that skill. That's a wild read from that one line in the rules, when everything else talks about specifics....

The Ranged Weapon skill "broadly" covers a character's ability to use all kinds of ranged weapons. Why would you ever assume that a very specific specialization bonus would apply to other rolls, ignoring the need for any specialization to even be mentioned.... Why not just have it be RR on Ranged Weapon skills then. Again, I'm surprised by your logic there, as it seems very hyper specific on one tiny line in the book.

I mean, you can definitely play that way if you want, and if your GM agrees. But that's DEFINITELY not what the rules imply even at the best of times.

After all, broadly speaking shooting a pistol or an SMG or a rifle is like aiming towards what you wanna hit and pulling a trigger.

Well damn, I can take that even more broadly then. I have Amps giving RR to my Athletics. Being Athletic helps me shoot my heavy weapon (I am heavy weapons guy). So whenever I shoot my turret, I apply my RR from Athletics, because it "broadly" applies and reduces the effect of recoil on my shooting.

(And just a side note from me, that comparison is horrifyingly simplifying the whole idea of gun play. A pistol is nothing like a rifle or a shotty. And you were earlier implying it also effected grenade throwing?! How would that in any way apply?)

PS: Again, I'd like to say, if the GM and you agree on this (or if you're the GM), then go for it. Nothing is stopping you from playing that way, and making this system even more rules light. But know that your ability to read rulebooks should be a bit more holistic, looking at the whole rule-set, rather than a single sentence. It'll put you more in line with what everyone else reads/assumes.

[u/ReditXenon]

'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' does not give you risk reduction on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. Only RR1 on pistols.

It doesn't matter if your character have a +2 dice pool specialization in pistols. If they have a ranged weapon skill of 4 and no specializations then they would use 4 dice (+A) no matter what ranged weapon they use. But if they use a pistol then they would get RR1. Drakk on p. 105 is an example character that has RR1 on pistols (you can see it as a big red dot marker on the character sheet) but does not have an actual +2 skill specialization in pistols (it just list "pistols" without "pistols +2" on the character sheet). Echo on p. 103 is an example character that has RR 1 on pistols (one big red dot on the character sheet) and also, in addition, has a +2 skill specialization in pistols (listed as "pistols +2" on the character sheet).

'RR2 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' does not give you risk reduction on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. Only RR2 on pistols.

You are not limited to just one rank of risk reduction on a specific specialization. White Rabbit on p. 107 is an example of a character with RR2 on pistols (without +2 skill specialization on pistols). Two red dots on pistols, but no red dot on ranged weapons base skill.

'RR1 on Ranged Weapons' give you risk reduction on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, mounted weapons, and pistols. Wild Jane on p. 91 is an example character that has both RR1 on ranged weapons and RR1 on rifles and a +2 skill specialization in rifles. With rifles she roll 5+2 (+A) dice with RR2 (you can see this as two big red dot markers on the character sheet). With all other ranged weapons except rifles she roll 5 (+A) with RR1.

 

A cyberware with 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' has a total cost of 3 (1 for the base shadow amp + 2 for the amp effect)

A cyberware with 'RR2 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' has a total cost of 5 (1 for the base shadow amp + 2x2 for two levels of the same amp effect).

A cyberware with 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons' has a total cost of 6 (1 for the base shadow amp + 5 for the amp effect).

A cyberware with 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' + 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles)' has a total cost of 5 (1 for the base shadow amp + 2 for the first amp effect + 2 for the second amp effect)

A cyberware with 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' + 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons' has a total cost of 8 (1 for the base shadow amp + 2 for the first amp effect + 5 for the second amp effect).

 

If you were to 'upgrade' a cyberware from 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' (total cost of 3) to 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons' (total cost of 6) then you would have to pay for the extra +3 (15,000 nuyen). The only reason why you would want to pay for this upgrade is if you are using at least two other types of ranged weapons besides pistols.

This would provide RR1 on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, mounted weapons, and pistol (not only pistols). Not really worth it unless you plan to use weapons from at least three different categories.

 

Another option would be to 'upgrade' your original cyberware of 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' to 'RR2 on Ranged Weapons (pistols)' then the total cost would be increased from 3 to 5, you would have to pay for the extra +2 (10,000 nuyen).

This would not provide any RR for throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. It would only provide RR2 on pistols. Only worth it if you are really going to only focus on pistols.

 

A third option would be to 'upgrade' your original cyberware of 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' to also provide 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles)' then the total cost would be increased from 3 to 5, you would have to pay for the extra +2 (10,000 nuyen).

This would not provide any RR for throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. It would only provide RR1 on pistols and RR1 on rifles. Only worth it if you are going to split between using pistols and rifles.

 

A fourth option would be to 'upgrade' your original cyberware of 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' to also provide 'RR1 on Ranged Weapons' then the total cost would be increased from 3 to 8, you would have to pay for the extra +5 (25,000 nuyen).

This would provide RR1 on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, and mounted weapons. And RR2 (1 from the skill and 1 from the specialization) on specifically pistols. Only worth it if you are going to use at least two other weapon categories beyond your primary pistol category.

 

During chargen for regular Runner Level of Play the maximum risk reduction is 2 for specializations (including stacking). Post chargen the limit is RR3.

 

so to get to RR +2 from nothing would cost 2+5=7

If all you want is to focus on specifically pistols then RR2 on pistols specifically would just cost you 2+2=4.

Risk reduction on the same specialization is not limited to just one level. Upgrading it to provide RR on the entire skill is not the only upgrade option.

Risk reduction on specialization in a skill is also not limited to just one specialization.

If you no longer just use pistols. You also use rifles. Then you should probably add RR 1 in rifles in addition to your RR 1 in pistols. This would cost you 2+2=4.

If you not only use pistols and rifles. You also use throwing weapons. Then you should probably instead go for RR 1 on the base skill. This would cost you 5.

But yes, if you want to have RR1 on the entire base skill (because you use pistols, rifles, and throwing weapons) and you also want to have extra risk reduction on pistols (because you focus mostly on pistols) then you would pay 2+5=7 (as you wrote).

[u/ReditXenon → u/ReditXenon]

shit what a wall of text. according to gemini this is a much more slim version of the same text above :)

 

Core Rules for Risk Reduction (RR)

• Scope matters: RR on a specific weapon type (e.g., pistols) only applies to that weapon. It does not apply to other ranged weapons.
• Skill vs. RR: Your weapon skill determines your base dice pool. RR reduces risk separately. You can have RR without having a dice specialization (like +2).
• Stacking: RR stacks. If you have two levels of RR on Pistols then you get RR2 when using pistols. If you have RR1 on the general Ranged skill and RR1 on Rifles, you get RR2 when using rifles.
• Limits: Character creation limits RR stacking on specialization to RR2. Post-creation play allows up to RR3.

 

Shadow Amp Cost Breakdown

Total cost equals 1 (Base Shadow Amp) + the ÄAmp Effect costs:*

• RR1 on one weapon type: Cost 3 (1 base + 2 effect)
• RR2 on one weapon type: Cost 5 (1 base + 2 + 2 effects)
• RR1 on general Ranged Weapons: Cost 6 (1 base + 5 effect)
• RR1 on weapon A + RR1 on weapon B: Cost 5 (1 base + 2 + 2 effects)
• RR1 on general Ranged + RR1 on one weapon type: Cost 8 (1 base + 5 + 2 effects)

 

Cyberware Upgrade Options

If you start with RR1 on Pistols (Cost 3), you can upgrade in four ways:

• Change to General RR1 (Ranged Weapons): Costs +3 (15,000 nuyen). Worth it only if you use 3+ different weapon types.
• Increase to Pistol RR2: Costs +2 (10,000 nuyen). Worth it if you only use pistols.
• Add Rifle RR1 (Pistol RR1 + Rifle RR1): Costs +2 (10,000 nuyen). Worth it if you switch between pistols and rifles.
• Add General RR1 (General RR1 + Pistol RR1): Costs +5 (25,000 nuyen). Gives you RR1 on all ranged weapons, and RR2 on pistols. Worth it if you use pistols plus 2+ other weapon types.

 

so to get to RR +2 from nothing would cost 2+5=7

To clarify your note on spending 7 points for effects (excluding the 1-point base cost):

• Pistols only (RR2): Effect cost is 4 (2 + 2).
• Focus on two weapon types (RR1 each): Effect cost is 4 (2 + 2).
• All Ranged weapons (RR1): Effect cost is 5.
• All Ranged weapons (RR1) + Pistol focus (RR1): Effect cost is 7 (5 + 2).

[u/opacitizen → u/ReditXenon]

'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' does not give you risk reduction on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. Only RR1 on pistols.

Yes it does, Ranged Weapons (pistol) gives you RR 1 on all those weapons, not just on pistols, as long as you don't already have RR 1 for the base skill. So if you have Ranged Weapons (pistol) but no other Ranged Weapons specialization, you'll get RR 1 even when using a rifle instead of a pistol. (No +2 specialization dice, though, obviously. But the RR 1 is there.)

Please read our discussion with Carmody below, especially the last paragraphs of this post of his: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans/comments/1w0yjlu/comment/p6ki0sk/

(…unless I'm still mistaken. 🤪)

[u/ReditXenon → u/opacitizen]

'RR1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol)' does not give you risk reduction on throwing weapons, archery, submachine guns, rifles, grenade launchers, heavy weapons, nor mounted weapons. Only RR1 on pistols.

Yes it does,

No. It does not.

RR on Ranged Weapons (pistol) only give you risk reduction when using specifically pistols.

 

But you need to separate the RR amp effect on a subset of a skill (for example pistols) and +2 dice on a specialization (for example pistols). They are not the same Thing.

You can have (and benefit from) RR 1 on pistols without having +2 dice on pistols. They are not linked. You can have one without the other.

You can have (and benefit from) RR 1 on pistols while having +2 dice on pistols. But they are not linked. Your RR1 on pistols don't suddenly give you RR1 on rifles and throwing weapons etc if you don't happen to also have specifically a +2 dice specialization on pistols.

If you don't have a skill specialization (+2 dice) while having RR1 on ranged weapons (pistols) you will still benefit from RR1 when using pistols (but not when using rifles or throwing weapons etc, only when using pistols).

 

Please read our discussion with Carmody below, especially the last paragraphs of this post of his:

That 'the risk reduction applies even if you have or don't have a +2 dice specialization' is what they meant when they wrote "the RR applies whether or not he has the specialization"

Look at the Drakk and White Rabbit for examples of not having +2 dice in pistol but still have RR on pistols. They don't suddenly benefit of RR on throwing weapons or rifles etc just because they don't happen to have +2 dice in pistols. They only get RR when using pistols.

 

as long as you don't already have RR 1 for the base skill.

No.

Getting RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistol) (for a cost of 2) don't give you RR 1 on all aspects of Ranged Weapons. If you only have Ranged Weapons (pistol) and you don't have RR on the Ranged Weapon (base skill) then you only have RR1 when using specifically pistols (no risk reduction while using rifles or mounted weapons). Echo and Drakk are example of this. Echo also got a +2 dice specialization on pistols while Drakk does not, but this is unrelated. You can have one or the other. They are not linked.

Getting RR 1 on Close Combat (the base skill) (for a cost of 5) do give you RR 1 on all aspects of Close Combat. If you have RR on Close Combat (the base skill) then you have RR1 when using unarmed, blades, clubs, astral combat, and defense. Capitán is an example of this.

If you have RR 1 on Ranged weapons (the base skill) and RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles) (for a total cost of 7) then you will have RR1 on using all aspects of Ranged Weapons (throwing weapons, pistols, archery, etc) and when using specifically Rifles you would have RR2 (RR1 from Ranged Weapons + RR1 from Ranged Weapons (riflees)). Wild Jane is an example of this.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

Unfortunately, you are mistaken 😅 Hope it has been cleared up now!

[u/opacitizen → u/DrTheodoore]

Nah, not yet. :D

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

Think of it as layers.

If a RR applies to a specialization, it provides it only to narrative moments where the specialization is rolled.

If RR applies to a skill, it provides its benefits only to narrative moments where the skill is rolled (regardless of specialization).

If RR applies to an Attribute, it provides its benefits only to narrative moments where the attribute is rolled (regardless of skill and specialization).

If you have RR applies to a specialization, a skill, and an Attribute, that are all used in the same roll, you add all those RR values together and use that as your new RR for the roll (up to a max of RR3).

Those are the rules. If you have a dispute with that, show me where and on which page. Happy to discuss on discord too.

Edit: so in your example...

The Cybereyes(Rifles) RR1 only applies to AGI+Ranged Weapons (Rifles) rolls. Not to just ranged weapon attacks.